192 replies to this topic

[Runkleford]

The difference is that GW1 didn't add a higher tier after release. So no matter how hard you guys claim that max gear was so hard to obtain in the game (it wasn't I played the game too), it still meant that people could focus their time and energy and save up for that max gear instead of the second highest tier that we currently have in this situation.

Edited by Runkleford, 14 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Daesu]

drkn, on 14 November 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

People are comparing 7-year-old GW1 to 3-month-old GW2.

BACK THEN, at the beginning or Prophecies, getting proper max gear was nearly impossible and/or expensive. Much harder than getting exotics in GW2.

I disagree.  If you knew how to farm UW back then, you can get max gear more easily in GW1 than in GW2.  There were already many people with max gear back then in GW1 within the first year of release.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Sinful01]

Runkleford, on 14 November 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Now since Ascendent gear is supposed to be the last tier, this won't be a never ending gear grind but it's still frustrating for a lot of folks  who just had their bulk of their work pointless if they want to upgrade to the next tier. They could have saved their time and gold for Ascendent gear. That is the difference from knowing what gear is the highest instead of having it sprung on you in a new update.

Where did they say this was the top rung of the grind-ladder?  From what I read, this was "only the beginning", and when speaking about Legendary weapons Lindsey said the stats on Legendary weapons would be bumped to Ascended stats (so Ascended weapons will be better than exotics, obviously, and therefore required in competitive scenarios like WvW) and as new tiers are added, they would be bumped further so they're always top-tier.

... and even if they DID say that Ascended was the final, end-all rung of things, how long should we believe them for?  They made it clear GW2 should follow in the "get best-in-slot gear fast, then tinker it as you see fit" model, but suddenly they're adding another layer.

To me, it is that whole "slippery slope" argument.  "Oh its only 1 tier, no biggie, we'll just grind it then be done" today.  What about in a couple more months?  Will we get another tier, and have to throw out all our gear and re-acquire best in slot again? I do not want to have to do that.

If you constantly move the bar upwards, to me that is a grind.  At that point you're just every other MMO out there ... many of us loved the fact that GW2's exotics were easy to attain and best-in-slot.  I was happy to be done grinding anything except for looks. There are lots of MMOs that shove "expanded content" down your throat complete with a new set of gear you MUST grind to do said content, and remain competitive. GW2 wasn't supposed to be one of those games.

Edited by Sinful01, 14 November 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[drkn]

But they added consumables. They added PvE skills. If you wanted to be top geared and ready for everything, you had to grind EotN rep points and waste gold for cons. If you weren't using the overpowered, grindy cons and skills, it's like you weren't going for the ascended gear - aka you still can get stuff done.
Sure, pugs in GW1 asked for max tier ursans. People asked for someone who would pop cons. People asked to ping your build and kicked you if you were using something less optimal. But it's not a bad game's design - it's how people react to anything they get.

[Gorwe]

* me!

It goes totally against Manifesto.

And to those that are saying that Manifests are theoretical/abstract-here's a question: "How come they adhered to their core philosophy for 4 years in GW 1?"

Furthermore: Don't forget that Jeff Strain left ArenaNet. Maybe whole horizontal progression and no gear grind was his idea? With him gone, why should they adhere to old/outdated rules? THAT is the key difference between what used to be THEN and what is NOW.

Edited by Gorwe, 14 November 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[Daesu]

drkn, on 14 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

But they added consumables. They added PvE skills. If you wanted to be top geared and ready for everything, you had to grind EotN rep points and waste gold for cons. If you weren't using the overpowered, grindy cons and skills, it's like you weren't going for the ascended gear - aka you still can get stuff done.
Sure, pugs in GW1 asked for max tier ursans. People asked for someone who would pop cons. People asked to ping your build and kicked you if you were using something less optimal. But it's not a bad game's design - it's how people react to anything they get.

Cons?  Lol...Besides speed clear teams, players who know what they are doing don't need cons to do any of the content.  I don't even need cons to clear foundry.  I have so much leftover cons that I gave them out for free so as to claim back my inventory space.

PvE skills you can get from just playing the game.  I have all the PvE skills in the game, none of them are difficult to get.

The worst grind in GW1 are for titles, but those are optional.

[Krazzar]

Specialz, on 14 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Spoiler

First, getting 21 platinum was not easy back in 2005 I have no idea where you got that from. Also at some point around may 2006, runes of vigor were about 37 platinum because I remember spending my whole summer (sadly) farming ettins for them. But make no mistake, maybe its nostaglia but getting platinum was never easy in the first year for the average player.

Just to add, grind is a term that a lot of people don't seem to use properly nor do they even know what constitute as grind.  Playing the game normally is not grind, it just playing the game, getting exotic is not even grind because you can do the content in rares (my first alt elementalist wears only rares, I level from 65 to 80 without changing my armor as well). If you want to know what grind is play any MMO where you run an instance 100 times and still not get a single piece of armor. You can get max armor set piece by spending an hour or so in orr.

So yes, guild wars 2 doesn't really have grind which is coming back to bite them in the butt. It seems player need to be gated from burning through content and complaining how there is nothing to do at 80.

Yeah, back then the 2 plat for a guild cape seemed pie-in-the-sky for my guild, then we saw the cost of a guild hall. A couple years later we all had so much money it was nearly worthless, we'd give away plats if someone said they needed it.

Many people focus in on one thing and one thing only. That is grind, but it's how they structure their time and focus. They could be working on multiple goals at the same time, take a balanced approach, but instead they force a single-minded model on themselves then complain. Just becaues you can do something doesn't mean that's the design. You can grind in GW2 just like you can hit your head against a wall repeatedly, that doesn't mean GW2 is designed for grind or a wall is designed for you to hit your head against.  Surprise, surprise people play against the "grain" of the design of the game and experience resistance. Makes me think of people that complain social security in the US isn't enough to retire on.

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Spoiler

It would really surprise me if ArenaNet offers Ascended gear, which are classified to be between Legendaries and Exotics, without any grind. Currently, we need to grind for Exotics anyway.

Like I have said, GW1 has always been cheaper to play than GW2 because of all the gold sinks in GW2.  You can map travel in GW1 for FREE!  Can you do that in GW2?  You can change your skill points for free in GW1.  Can you reset your trait points for free in GW2?  Resurrection is free in GW1, but not in GW2 and it scales to be more expensive with your level.  There are no repair cost in GW1, but not in GW2.  No listing fee and no transaction fee when you trade between players in GW1, unlike GW2.  I can go on.

Furthermore, in GW1 you are already given a max stat green weapon when you have completed the game.  Even if you don't care about that, you can also get max stat items easily from drops playing in the endgame areas.  You can also get max armor cheaply in endgame towns.

What are you offered in GW2 when you have completed the game?  A rare weapon, not even max stat.

Yes, I dare declare that gold and max stat items have always been easier to get in GW1 than in GW2, even during the first year of GW1.



I don't know what is so difficult when ectos were a lot more valuable back then.  Just join a pug and farm UW.  You just have to know how to farm.

Considering anything in the game is called grind by one person or another there will be "grind". From what we know now you get these new types of gear the same way you get all the others, by playing the game. In the case of infusions it's literally horizontal progression and the ascended gear saves you the "grind" of crafting or getting jewels or other items to use in the slots.

It seems to be a rather cruel joke for the entire world to keep you in the dark about this, although it's somewhat hard to avoid the criers in the game.

GW1 was most definitely far easier because it wasn't initially designed as a PvE game, everything about PvE was a comprimise and band-aid fix whereas GW2 actually has some foresight. You're not going to get the whole picture right now because it's beyond what we currently know, which is another flaw, hindsight is 20/20 and nostalgia makes GW1 seem perfect when it really wasn't a very good PvE game at all. What's even funnier is the main thing to do in GW1 for years was grind, also called farming. Then, after GW2 was announced GW1 had a revitalizaion as everyone returned to the game to grind HoM points. Given GW1's pedigree I'm surprised GW2 isn't all grind all the time.

Exotics are easy to get in GW2, you just have to take a balanced approach, level crafting (which requires materials and a balanced approach means you'll have most of the materials you need and the money you need to buy the rest), and make them yourself. If you blitz everything you're going to hit a wall because you're not playing the game as designed; you're not going to have crafting leveled, you're not going to have the materials to craft, and you're not going to have the money to buy crafting materials so the only option for exotics becomes gold or karma, which both are more difficult to get than crafting.

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

I disagree.  If you knew how to farm UW back then, you can get max gear more easily in GW1 than in GW2.  There were already many people with max gear back then in GW1 within the first year of release.

Are you seriously going to come in here and say the way to avoid grind in GW1 was to grind UW? You're joking, right?

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Cons?  Lol...Besides speed clear teams, players who know what they are doing don't need cons to do any of the content.  I don't even need cons to clear foundry.  I have so much leftover cons that I gave them out for free so as to claim back my inventory space.

PvE skills you can get from just playing the game.  I have all the PvE skills in the game, none of them are difficult to get.

The worst grind in GW1 are for titles, but those are optional.

The same is true of exotics, you don't need exotics to do anything. I've done every dungeon without exotics. Actually, cons in GW1 are required more than exotics in GW2 if you're a "normal" player because your group will probably require them or leave you in town, unless you're too skilled for a group, of course.

Exotics you can get from just playing the game. See above.

Titles weren't always optional, at the release of Nightfall Sunspear rank was required to level in order to move on in the story more than once. Anet has a history of making things easier as time goes on.

Edited by Krazzar, 14 November 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[Daesu]

Krazzar, on 14 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Are you seriously going to come in here and say the way to avoid grind in GW1 was to grind UW? You're joking, right?

When did I say that GW1 has zero grind?  I only said that it has always been easier to get maxed items in GW1 than in GW2.

[Daesu]

Krazzar, on 14 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

The same is true of exotics, you don't need exotics to do anything. I've done every dungeon without exotics. Actually, cons in GW1 are required more than exotics in GW2 if you're a "normal" player because your group will probably require them or leave you in town, unless you're too skilled for a group, of course.

Then the group sucks, leave that group and you would do better with just a hero team.  If I can clear foundry without cons with just my heroes, I don't see why I would need cons for these guys.  The only group that is justified to ask for cons are the speed clear teams because they have good reasons to do so.

Quote

Exotics you can get from just playing the game. See above.

Titles weren't always optional, at the release of Nightfall Sunspear rank was required to level in order to move on in the story more than once.

Sure you can get exotics from playing the game, after many many hours to slowly save up for them.  That can be said for GW1 too, you can always save up your gold.  But GW2 has A LOT more gold sinks than GW1 so it is still easier to save in GW1 than it is in GW2.

Yeah that Sunspear title requirement was a stupid design which they fixed not too long after release.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Krazzar]

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

When did I say that GW1 has zero grind?  I only said that it has always been easier to get maxed items in GW1 than in GW2.

Just seems odd your answer to everything in GW1 is to grind yet the problem in GW2 is that you have the option to grind. If GW1 is the standard by all games should be measured and you want the GW1 model to be used you should have expected more grind because there is so much more gear to go through in GW2 from level 2 to 80. Your arguments don't support the inverse relationship you are now using.

[Improvavel]

drkn, on 14 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

But they added consumables. They added PvE skills. If you wanted to be top geared and ready for everything, you had to grind EotN rep points and waste gold for cons. If you weren't using the overpowered, grindy cons and skills, it's like you weren't going for the ascended gear - aka you still can get stuff done.
Sure, pugs in GW1 asked for max tier ursans. People asked for someone who would pop cons. People asked to ping your build and kicked you if you were using something less optimal. But it's not a bad game's design - it's how people react to anything they get.

Mistake after mistake to solve the problem they created by not wanting to split PvE from PvP. They split PvE from PvP in the end.

Mistake after mistake to correct the mobs power creep and skills power creep.

They made PvE only skills had a smaller power curve by rank, they made some of them less powerful, they nerfed HM mobs benefits, etc.

[Daesu]

Krazzar, on 14 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Just seems odd your answer to everything in GW1 is to grind yet the problem in GW2 is that you have the option to grind. If GW1 is the standard by all games should be measured and you want the GW1 model to be used you should have expected more grind because there is so much more gear to go through in GW2 from level 2 to 80. Your arguments don't support the inverse relationship you are now using.

You have grind in both games but if you want max stat items, you have more necessary grind to do in GW2 than in GW1.  

If completing the game is the goal, then when I have reached that goal in GW1, I already have a max stat weapon and probably max stat armor, perhaps 1 or 2 runes maybe too expensive at that point in time but that is fine.

After completing the personal storyline in GW2, I have 0 max stat weapons and 0 max stat armor.  I need to start farming somewhere to afford exotics.  Do you see my point?

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Gli]

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

It would really surprise me if ArenaNet offers Ascended gear, which are classified to be between Legendaries and Exotics, without any grind. Currently, we need to grind for Exotics anyway.

<snip>

Yes, I dare declare that gold and max stat items have always been easier to get in GW1 than in GW2, even during the first year of GW1.



I don't know what is so difficult when ectos were a lot more valuable back then.  Just join a pug and farm UW.  You just have to know how to farm.

You look funny in those rose-colored glasses.

GW1 in its early days had no decent way of making money apart from farming or lucky perfect valuable drops, requiring quite a bit of grind. Also, seriously? Farming UW? Back when huge swaths of people couldn't even get in there due to the continental "favor of the gods" system. Also, farming UW without already having max equipment? Really now...

GW2 on the other hand, grind for exotics? Odd, I didn't have to, I crafted my own as soon as I hit 80 on my first character. All I did was kill stuff and gather materials while playing through the story and completing areas.

[Daesu]

Gli, on 14 November 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

GW1 in its early days had no decent way of making money apart from farming or lucky perfect valuable drops, requiring quite a bit of grind. Also, seriously? Farming UW? Back when huge swaths of people couldn't even get in there due to the continental "favor of the gods" system. Also, farming UW without already having max equipment? Really now...

Not if you are in America.  You have enough favors from the gods.

Quote

GW2 on the other hand, grind for exotics? Odd, I didn't have to, I crafted my own as soon as I hit 80 on my first character. All I did was kill stuff and gather materials while playing through the story and completing areas.

Crafting exotic armor for yourself is probably the most gold intensive option.  Crafted armor also don't come with runes.

I have the Master Crafter title and I still don't do that because of the price of the ingredients that you need.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Gli]

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

I disagree.  If you knew how to farm UW back then, you can get max gear more easily in GW1 than in GW2.  There were already many people with max gear back then in GW1 within the first year of release.

Nonsense. People got max gear in order to be able to actually do UW, not the other way around.

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Crafting exotic armor for yourself is probably the most gold intensive option.  Crafted armor also don't come with runes.

I have the Master Crafter title and I still don't do that because of the price of the ingredients that you need.

And still I was able to do that, without grinding or even repeating any content at all.

[Daesu]

Gli, on 14 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Nonsense. People got max gear in order to be able to actually do UW, not the other way around.

What are you talking about?  You can easily get max armor from Droknar Forge and max weapon from completing the game.

You can use cheaper runes first and farm UW if you really want to get your superior vigor rune.  It is only 9hp between major and superior vigor runes and you only need one vigor rune per character.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[Gli]

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

What are you talking about?  You can easily get max armor from Droknar Forge and max weapon from endgame areas or from completing the game.

Huh?

Why would you say something like this then?

"If you knew how to farm UW back then, you can get max gear more easily in GW1 than in GW2."

You're just spouting nonsense because something about GW2 ticks you off I'm guessing.

[RabidusIncendia]

Gli, on 14 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Nonsense. People got max gear in order to be able to actually do UW, not the other way around.


And still I was able to do that, without grinding or even repeating any content at all.

Getting to max level and max armor in GW1 took about a day, GW2 took about 2 weeks.  GW1 missions is about the same time as the personal story in GW2.  Don't even compare grind, please.  Well you can if you want to look extremely silly I suppose.  Oh and actually back on topic, getting max level and armor and is about to get a crapton longer.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 14 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Xodiak]

I agree with the end game statement:

I really wish there were more level 80 content.. dynamic events of larger sizes.. more dragons, large ogres, giants, giant battles in stages.. more of the top stuff. right now at 80, I have all the best gear and i'm wondering what to do. I have ZERO incentive to go into all the other dungeons, I have plenty of money.. as far as I'm concerned, i'm done.

I realize what GW1 was, and how this game is much different.. I also understand how the MMO landscape has changed since GW1.. and people, a lot of people.. have an expectation. Plus, you gotta keep people involved and returning.

[Daesu]

Gli, on 14 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

And still I was able to do that, without grinding or even repeating any content at all.

Then you are richer than I am.    There are too many gold sinks in GW2 and that fact that I am a Master Crafter should give you a clue as to where most of my gold sinks into.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Gli]

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Getting to max level and max armor in GW1 took about a day, GW2 took about 2 weeks.  GW1 missions is about the same time as the personal story in GW2.  Don't even compare grind, please.  Well you can if you want to look extremely silly I suppose.

Who's talking about max armor? Not me!

[RabidusIncendia]

You said max gear o.O  UNless you also mean weapons too, in which case GW1 was LAUGHABLY short, we're talking a tiny 5 minute grind for collector materials for your blue 15^50 +30 near droks.

[Ghostwing]

Xodiak, on 14 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I agree with the end game statement:

I really wish there were more level 80 content.. dynamic events of larger sizes.. more dragons, large ogres, giants, giant battles in stages.. more of the top stuff.

There is no reason why they'd need to add in gear with higher stats for any of that.

Edited by Ghostwing, 14 November 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[Gli]

Daesu, on 14 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Then you are richer than I am.    There are too many gold sinks in GW2 and that fact that I am a Master Crafter should give you a clue as to where most of the gold sinks into.

I guess you've done something wrong then, Master Crafter didn't cost me a whole lot.

I made one fine and one masterwork equipment set every tier, and used those myself. The rest of the levelling-up I did by buying cheap rare materials off the TP and discovering and crafting interesting runes and sigils, not by throwing fine materials away to create worthless equipment. I haven't a clue how the market for them is right now, but when the TP first came online, buying materials to craft runes was actually profitable. Probably because few people knew how to make runes.

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

You said max gear o.O  UNless you also mean weapons too, in which case GW1 was LAUGHABLY short, we're talking a tiny 5 minute grind for collector materials for your blue 15^50 +30 near droks.

Gear doesn't stop at armor and weapons. My first character had to spend 250k on runes alone.

[RabidusIncendia]

Gli, on 14 November 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Gear doesn't stop at armor and weapons. My first character had to spend 250k on runes alone.

Ah yeah I came when the economy had settled two months after release, so the miinor runes that got you to like 99% max power costed nothing :/  And really, the +9 hp you got from going major vitality to sup vaitality was almost a cosmetic, it was ~+1% hp.  But either way the discussion is moot, I'm not sure how we got to discussing static gear with a gear treadmill being presented here.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 14 November 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Specialz]

Some guy made a good reference on reddit, he said that ascended gear is like the crappy green named items we had in guild wars 1, in some ways I agree. They were technically special items, but could not be modified in any meaningful way (if my memory is still OK). I remember everybody wanting a totem axe and people started going back to gold low requirment items.

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Getting to max level and max armor in GW1 took about a day, GW2 took about 2 weeks.  GW1 missions is about the same time as the personal story in GW2.  Don't even compare grind, please.  Well you can if you want to look extremely silly I suppose.  Oh and actually back on topic, getting max level and armor and is about to get a crapton longer.

So it took you longer to hit 80 so what? (took me a week adn it took others 3 days). That is faster than most games in any stretch. Even when it took you longer you could still get max gear in a far shorter time then in guild wars 1. I farmed runes of vigor for a whole summer,  about 4-6 hours a day just killing ettins and I was fortunate enough towards the end of the summer to get just 1 rune of vigor. I got a lot of crappy runes but only one rune of vigor. Guild wars 2, a day after I hit 80 and learned that you can get ectos by salving rares I was already set to getting my first pieces of exotics for my crappy ranger.

Nostalgia is a powerful force, which is why Toonami between 2000-2003 was the greatest block of show in the history of cartoon network.

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Ah yeah I came when the economy had settled two months after release, so the miinor runes that got you to like 99% max power costed nothing :/  And really, the +9 hp you got from going major vitality to sup vaitality was almost a cosmetic, it was ~+1% hp.  But either way the discussion is moot, I'm not sure how we got to discussing static gear with a gear treadmill being presented here.

It relevent because you seem to be under the silly assumption that guild wars 1 had less grind, which is not even close to being accurate.

[Daesu]

Gli, on 14 November 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I guess you've done something wrong then, Master Crafter didn't cost me a whole lot.

I made one fine and one masterwork equipment set every tier, and used those myself. The rest of the levelling-up I did by buying cheap rare materials off the TP and discovering and crafting interesting runes and sigils, not by throwing fine materials away to create worthless equipment. I haven't a clue how the market for them is right now, but when the TP first came online, buying materials to craft runes was actually profitable. Probably because few people knew how to make runes.

So did I.  But you need to make equipment for more than 1 character in order to get the next 25 points in crafting.  Not all runes and sigils would offer you a net profit so there is inevitably some wastage.  In most tiers, you can't make a profit from crafting and when you can, if people see you dumping too many crafted goods in the TP they would dump theirs too and sell theirs cheaper.

There is also the opportunity cost of selling your ingredients instead of using them to level up crafting.  All in all, crafting is a big gold sink.

Edited by Daesu, 14 November 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[RabidusIncendia]

Oh I just used minor vigor for almost ever.  I couldn't care less about 2% hp, so my grind.. I never had grind actually, I didn't even farm for anything but cosmetics.  +13% stats made me farm exotic tho.  If exotics offered even +3% extra stats I wouldn't have worked for them either.

Edit: this is getting dumb, we're talking about GW1 "grind" and greens, which have nothing to do with this since they never had stats higher than the 1k in collectors item blues you got at droks

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 14 November 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Draugadan]

Xodiak, on 14 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Plus, you gotta keep people involved and returning.

A gear treadmill is the worst possible idea anyone could have come up with for that purpose. Nobody wants to come back to a game they've laid down just to discover they've fallen behind.

Honestly, ArenaNet has fallen so low as to resort to trying to beat WoW at their own game? No MMO which has tried to do that has succeeded and more than that, most of them died a painful death.

[Specialz]

RabidusIncendia, on 14 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Oh I just used minor vigor for almost ever.  I couldn't care less about 2% hp, so my grind.. I never had grind actually, I didn't even farm for anything but cosmetics.  +13% stats made me farm exotic tho.  If exotics offered even +3% extra stats I wouldn't have worked for them either.

Edit: this is getting dumb, we're talking about GW1 "grind" and greens, which have nothing to do with this since they never had stats higher than the 1k in collectors item blues you got at droks

its not really dumb because we are trying, (honestly we will never succeed because you already made up your mind that it is bad), to show you that it is not out of the ordinary, for arenanet. A lot of people claiming that guild wars 1 did not have grind, are uninformed and have really awesome tinted glasses. Finally, that it is not a deviation of their manifesto if you don't have to grind for it, because you don't really needed it.

Just to add, unique item tier (green) were added long after guild wars 1 was release. Guild wars 1 was released in April 6, 2005; unique items were added september 7th 2005. Which just happens to be around the same time they are adding ascended gear. So Arenanet does have a history of new tier of items after release. if anybody that play guild wars 1 is shocked by this then they probably played the game way after this normalize, so they know nothing.

Edited by Specialz, 14 November 2012 - 08:25 PM.