196 replies to this topic

[Shiren]

We’ve all seen the never ending posts about the game being empty, people flocking to other games and countless “this game sucks” posts. The rest of us kept playing the game. Most of us expected the game to lose people as we distanced from launch and the population levelled out. I suspect ArenaNet was on the same page. The launch population wasn’t going to be the active player base.

Only three months in we now see a radical turn around and abandonment of one of the core philosophies of the game, it’s development, it’s marketing and our trust: the introduction of a new tier and the promise of a treadmill.

As we watch Guild Wars 2 mature in its Live environment, we have found that our most dedicated players were achieving their set of Exotic gear and hitting “the Legendary wall.” We designed the process of getting Legendary gear to be a long term goal, but players were ready to start on that path much sooner than we expected and were becoming frustrated with a lack of personal progression. Our desire is to create a game that is more inclusive for hardcore and casual players alike, but we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level. Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later.

Aside from being confused on what a dedicated player is (my guild plays for several hours a day, every day and many of us only have one 80 and one exotic set, none of us have a legendary, so her definition of dedicated must be very specific to grinding) the implication is that the game needs something it doesn’t already have. I also thought they wanted us to have exotic gear, it wasn’t supposed to be a long term goal. I am genuinely confused by her reasoning.
How much trouble could GW2 be in that only three months after launch they have had such a dramatic reversal on their stance? That they would betray their core design so quickly with no other avenues trialled, just to keep the population satisfied? I thought Halloween was a success from a population point of view. I was always in overflow and the game was very active. I still find the game to be very active, people running dungeons or playing through content that’s rewarding.

Is there something we don’t know about that has put the game is such a dire situation that this change makes sense? Why would they so dramatically change their design direction if the population or game wasn't in trouble?

[IDarko]

Well they added 2 new NA servers not so long ago iirc. But yeah, they are kinda going away from their philosphy. I just found this on Reddit. A few quotes from 3 months back about gearing:

"Here's what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can't realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don't make grindy games -- we leave the grind to other MMOs."
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
– Colin Johanson

Eh?

Edited by IDarko, 13 November 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[Strawberry Nubcake]

Dedicated players are people that race through all the content as fast as possible so they can live in Orr.  They tend to bore easily.  Gee, I wonder why.

A not-so-dedicated player like myself spends time playing the game.  I take my time leveling and try to experience everything the game has to offer while working towards my goals.  I have logged nearly 850 hours, have several 80s in exotic gear and I don't have a legendary yet.  I'm not bored.  I'm obviously not a dedicated player according to Anet.

Edited by Strawberry Nubcake, 13 November 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[zidane888]

Strawberry Nubcake, on 13 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Dedicated players are people that race through all the content as fast as possible so they can live in Orr.  They tend to bore easily.  Gee, I wonder why.

A not-so-dedicated player like myself spends time playing the game.  I take my time leveling and try to experience everything the game has to offer while working towards my goals.  I have logged nearly 850 hours, have several 80s in exotic gear and I don't have a legendary yet.  I'm not bored.  I'm obviously not a dedicated player according to Anet.

You're playing the game wrong. More rushing, less sight-seeing.

[Sephirox507]

the game is not in trouble what is in trouble is the MMO community, raging through forums when the content has not even come out....

[Knuckledust13]

Strawberry Nubcake, on 13 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I have logged nearly 850 hours

I'm sorry, you are far from "dedicated".. in my classification you are an addicted player. Do you have any idea how much 850 hours are? Just because you like making alts instead of working towards a legendary, it doesn't make you any less addicted.

Dedicated players are those that play the game fully, support ArenaNet through gem shop gamble and so on. GW2 haven't enough content that you couldn't achieve in 3 months playing on a normal pace.

[Nox_Aeterna]

Honestly , dont think so , will lose at most a little part of their player base , me included , and will keep going like many other MMOs have done in the past.

[zidane888]

Knuckledust13, on 13 November 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

Dedicated players are those that play the game fully, support ArenaNet through gem shop gamble and so on. GW2 haven't enough content that you couldn't achieve in 3 months playing on a normal pace.

Seems a pretty arbitrary/norrow definition of 'dedicated'...

Edited by zidane888, 13 November 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[Strawberry Nubcake]

Knuckledust13, on 13 November 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

I'm sorry, you are far from "dedicated".. in my classification you are an addicted player. Do you have any idea how much 850 hours are? Just because you like making alts instead of working towards a legendary, it doesn't make you any less addicted.

Dedicated players are those that play the game fully, support ArenaNet through gem shop gamble and so on. GW2 haven't enough content that you couldn't achieve in 3 months playing on a normal pace.

So the people that spent 700+ hours and got a legendary aren't addicted?  They are considered dedicated?  Why isn't the money I spent on gems considered supporting Anet when theirs is?  

Edited by Strawberry Nubcake, 13 November 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[kaldemeo]

Shiren, on 13 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

...we now see a radical turn around and abandonment of one of the core philosophies of the game, it’s development, it’s marketing and our trust: the introduction of a new tier and the promise of a treadmill...

This core philosophy - that casual players should be able to obtain top stat gear - is for me the most important thing GW2 has to offer.

I am extremely curious in and a bit nervous about the upcoming change.

Is GW 2 in Trouble ?
People like me will be sad if Areanet starts making new tier items with better stats that takes long time to get.
The WoW people may love it

Strawberry Nubcake, on 13 November 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

...I totally understand why some people may decide to pack up and leave.  It's still a bit early to tell.

Yea. people shouldn't pack already : )

Edited by kaldemeo, 13 November 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[Strawberry Nubcake]

Honestly, I don't care how much grind is required to get this stuff.  What bothered me was the fact they did change their stance on gear a little.  As I already pointed out, I have nothing but free time on my hands right now.  Of course the "grind" factor doesn't bother me.  I just wish Anet had stuck with the original plan instead of attempting to cater to a type of gamer that won't ever be satisfied.

Do I think the game is in trouble?  Not really, but I totally understand why some people may decide to pack up and leave.  It's still a bit early to tell.

[Gremlin]

The new content is obviously being added because some players either by playing a heck of a lot being skillful and lucky or they cheated, have achieved things in the game that "in their innocence" anet thought would take much longer.
Things that would have come in later on are being rushed into place and good for them for being prepared and responding so quickly.

So whats the problem with the content, well I am guessing those that worked all those hours to get where they are are suddenly realising that there is even more stuff to get, how sad is that
Should the players of a game expect content that they can realistically achieve without astupid amounts of effort, I would say no.
In any game those that put in the most time effort skill and resources will get more than those who do not.

Its the usual catch 22 make the game easy and players get bored and leave make it too hard and players get frustrated and angry and leave.
The impossible dream is to make it acceptable for everyone, so stay leave moan cry sulk or carry on playing I don't care.

The new content as well as the Legendary weapons precurser weapons etc I may get in time, I would be happier if they had better stats I like elite items to be elite in function not just look better.
Only reason against that is PVP well just make them PVE only or nullify any special abilities outside of pve.

[Doctor Overlord]

Official merged forum thread on ascended items - 5000+ posts, over 50,000 views as of the afternoon of 11/13.

https://forum-en.gui.../101#post715879

A dead game wouldn't garner that much traffic.   Clearly there are people who still care about the game and they wouldn't care if they didn't play. Trolls can spout all the want about the game being empty, their opinions tend to ignore things like evidence.

Gremlin, on 13 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

The new content is obviously being added because some players either by playing a heck of a lot being skillful and lucky or they cheated, have achieved things in the game that "in their innocence" anet thought would take much longer.
Things that would have come in later on are being rushed into place and good for them for being prepared and responding so quickly.

I think this is correct.   I would not be surprised if this was always in the plans of ArenaNet.  It's too similar to the GW1 infusion system and they implemented this rather quickly.

I'm willing to wait and see exactly how much this gates content.   It sounds like people can still experience the endless dungeon without infusions, they just will not progress as far into it.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 13 November 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[Targanwolf]

I don't know if the company is in trouble or not. I suspect its performing less than desired AT THIS TIME...if I were to guess from some of the things I've noted.Personally.......I'm playing the game for something to do, since the primary reason I bought the game .......WvW......is so screwed up.

[Red_Falcon]

The company is far from stupid.
They wouldn't make a move if it didn't generate revenue to them.

Seriously guys, 4% stats. Lvl 80 food prolly gives more and it's not wvw-deciding. Lay back a bit and wait to see facts.
We all know Anet is terrible at explaining things.

[Daesu]

Gremlin, on 13 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

The new content as well as the Legendary weapons precurser weapons etc I may get in time, I would be happier if they had better stats I like elite items to be elite in function not just look better.

I am directly opposite to that then.  I like max stat items to be as easily obtainable as they are in GW1, so as to be fair to people who do not have as much time to play because of real life responsibilities, the others can grind for cosmetic upgrades if they have too much time in their hands.  Just because someone has more real life responsibilities doesn't mean he is less skilled and deserves less.  Ideally, the game should base its rewards on skills, not grind.  But as always, to keep people playing, grind rewards would be introduced.

Looks like I would forever be under-geared in this game as I am only wearing Masterwork items.

Edited by Daesu, 13 November 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[Shamadamun]

IDarko, on 13 November 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

-snip-

Well now... That's quite interesting indeed. Maybe even a tad disheartening...

[beadnbutter32]

After bragging how they were going to pass WOW to become the number one game, they have failed to outsell the original Guild Wars at this point, (GW sold 5 million copies, so far GW2 only claims 2 million, while WOW is in the 9 million range.)

By their own yardstick, that is failure.

[cherubchild]

GW2 is not in trouble...anet will keep, and bring in new players that enjoy the game. the ones who do not will leave and in a year or two some of them will also return and give it a second go


and i do not recall anet ever saying they will be bigger than WOW...some players said that however.

Edited by cherubchild, 13 November 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[Doctor Overlord]

Just out of curiosity, do any of the old GW1 players recall how long it took for that game to sell 5 million?   Was it all at the start or did it continue to sell after the release and expansions?

cherubchild, on 13 November 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

and i do not recall anet ever saying they will be bigger than WOW...some players said that however.

I like ArenaNet but I do believe someone from the company did say something about aiming for the top spot in the market or something similar.  Not mention of WoW outright of course and whatever they said was probably open to interpretation but still the meaning was clear.  /shrug.  I can't find the quote at this point so I might be remembering wrong, it's not like it was a major marketing point lol

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 14 November 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Linfang]

Nexcom and NCsoft assimilated Anet like the borg. Get out your wallets, resistance is futile.

[Noirr]

beadnbutter32, on 13 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

After bragging how they were going to pass WOW to become the number one game, they have failed to outsell the original Guild Wars at this point, (GW sold 5 million copies, so far GW2 only claims 2 million, while WOW is in the 9 million range.)

By their own yardstick, that is failure.

i believe GW1 sold 6.5 million copies since 2005 till today , i think it took them to reach the 2 million copies sold in 1 year while GW2 reached those numbers in less than a year...so if things continue to go well it may surpass its predecessor in sales or match it

[Impmon]

Why do completionists complain about new content they'll run through in 8 hours ?  I'm trying to understand the logic behind the people complaining about new content.  You're upset that theres new stuff you have the option of doing.  That is option.  You don't have to do it and will probably be able to continue playing regardless of the differences.  The world won't end if you don't have the ultimate maximum and perfect stats to your character.

[Shatteredz]

To be honest, it depends on the levle of the gear threadmill.
If tier 1 are current exotics, and we will get tier 2(1% increase in stats) tier 3(2% increase in stats) and tier 4(3% increase, or some other minor bonus) I would be fine with it.

I am not fine with it when guilds/groups are saying: LF2M with full tier 4 cus else u suck!!111. A minor increase in stats to keep a large part of the playerbase busy for the next few months, while skill will still be the major factor in pvp and pve? sure, I will have it.

Sometimes we have to compromise, we cant have everything, and we have to accept that large company's take promises very lightly. Take runescape for example, you would never be able to buy yourself a in-game advantage. Now you can buy yourself a level 99 with enough money. Combat arms is another example. They stated on their homepage that the gear bought with money would only be visually different. 2 years later and it has come so far that people with NX-gear(bought with real cash) are being kicked out of every room because they are OP.

[Gremlin]

Daesu, on 13 November 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I am directly opposite to that then.  I like max stat items to be as easily obtainable as they are in GW1, so as to be fair to people who do not have as much time to play because of real life responsibilities, the others can grind for cosmetic upgrades if they have too much time in their hands.  Just because someone has more real life responsibilities doesn't mean he is less skilled and deserves less.  Ideally, the game should base its rewards on skills, not grind.  But as always, to keep people playing, grind rewards would be introduced.

Looks like I would forever be under-geared in this game as I am only wearing Masterwork items.

Fair point, but then some players will always have better equipment than others often by a lucky drop.
Armour and weapons gradually protect more and do more damage as you progress in the game.
More and more "slotted items/effects" come in.
To me it makes sense for something to have the title Legendary to in some way be better.

Players who are able to fulfill the points needed to find buy create or craft such a weapon deserve more than it to just Look better.
Others are free to attempt the same or not.

Now what does it actually mean in the game that a player has a legendary weapon that does say 10% more damage criticals condition damage, or increases character abilities it really doesnt matter just something extra better different.
It means absolutely nothing it does not affect any other player in the game Unless they use it on that player, and as I say this is for pve not pvp.
Pvp players have parity of equipment and skills its how they set up and use them that matters.

[Xellial]

Shatteredz, on 14 November 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

To be honest, it depends on the levle of the gear threadmill.
If tier 1 are current exotics, and we will get tier 2(1% increase in stats) tier 3(2% increase in stats) and tier 4(3% increase, or some other minor bonus) I would be fine with it.

I am not fine with it when guilds/groups are saying: LF2M with full tier 4 cus else u suck!!111. A minor increase in stats to keep a large part of the playerbase busy for the next few months, while skill will still be the major factor in pvp and pve? sure, I will have it.

Sometimes we have to compromise, we cant have everything, and we have to accept that large company's take promises very lightly. Take runescape for example, you would never be able to buy yourself a in-game advantage. Now you can buy yourself a level 99 with enough money. Combat arms is another example. They stated on their homepage that the gear bought with money would only be visually different. 2 years later and it has come so far that people with NX-gear(bought with real cash) are being kicked out of every room because they are OP.

According to the number Crunchers, Ascended = 8% More powerful than Exotic. It'd be better to base off tiers assuming that may be the norm for any more added tiers, if they DO decide to add more.

[Dasryn]

generally speaking, forum members only  represent a small portion of the playerbase in any mmo you play am i right?

same goes for the twitter posters and facebook.

and also is it not generally that small percentage of the player base that is most vocal?

so my question is:  who is ANet really listening to when they decide things like the introduction of a new tier of gear?

it makes me think they are listening to the ones that blasted through content and got bored easy and hence complain to no end, simply becaus they are the most vocal.

if this is the case, ANet needs to re evaluate where they are getting their feedback from as this could be very detrimental to the future of this game's content development.

ive seen it happen in swtor.

[xarallei]

Red_Falcon, on 13 November 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

The company is far from stupid.
They wouldn't make a move if it didn't generate revenue to them.

Seriously guys, 4% stats. Lvl 80 food prolly gives more and it's not wvw-deciding. Lay back a bit and wait to see facts.
We all know Anet is terrible at explaining things.

People keep saying this. It's only "slightly" better. Yeah, and when those people get all that gear and start whining? Another set of "slightly" better gear. And another.....

That's the way gear treadmills work. This is only the beginning.

[Jetjordan]

yeah I'm in a HUGE guild full of older players and most could care less about forums

[Specialz]

Rickter, on 14 November 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

snip

What I think is Arenanet was counting on the people that play guild wars 1 to play guild wars 2. What ended up happening was that a lot of them did not transition, but a lot of players from other MMOs did. So now, this lack of gear progression while not directly present in guild wars 1 (it was via titles and pve only skills), caused a significant amount of players to leave the game, which is always a bad thing. And this is how they are reacting to it.

In some ways this ascended gear might be needed as a test to see how the fanbase is going to react imo. Personally, i think the whole no gear treadmil is a little unrealistic for an MMO, because a good chunk of the players NEED directions on what to work on. Gear is an easy way to lead them. People have no objections running the same thing for weeks to get a piece of gear.

Edited by Specialz, 14 November 2012 - 01:06 AM.