196 replies to this topic

[Asudementio]

GW2 is in trouble.

GW2 needs a fully implemented guesting system, more guild features, more pve endgame tasks, factions/reputation (ie luxon vs kurzick), more spvp formats with a compelling competitive environment, and more WvW objectives/features.  They have time to implement these things, but they need to make it clear they are working on some/all of them by telling us and leaking screenshots of such features.

[Shroomhead Fred]

Is GW2 in trouble?  Hardly.

Could things be improved?  Sure.

Do we need more dramatised threads on the forum?  Not really.

[Lafiele]

Well, recently when I was leveling a new char in the level 15-25 zone, I had plenty of people to help me with events and stuff. So I'd say we're still doing okay.

[FiachSidhe]

In trouble? Nah.
Could things be better? Absolutely. But they are far from bad, IMO.

[beadnbutter32]

Bryant Again, on 15 November 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

No clue, but it'd be the only thing that would make sense to me, I suppose.

Otherwise I see the new gear additions being pretty pointless. Team Fortress 2 showed how much people will go out of their way for a simple hat. Why is this not the same for GW2?

It is not pointless.  They are status giving items in a social environment.  In any social environment status giving items serve a core function.  To say they are optional is the same as saying trying to win or succeed socially is optional.

[Corvindi]

I'd say they're in pretty bad shape judging by the handy dandy Reuters stock graph for NCSoft.  But other factors that have nothing to do with the reception of GW2 these past three months could have something to do with it.

[Arewn]

With the new dungeon, there will be something for PVE guild to focus in on at least and progress through at max level. So long as they keep fleshing out solid things to do like this, I'd think they'll be ok.
Still have a lot of work to be done on the PVP side of things, but realistically that's something to be fleshed out in the long run (one does not simply e-sport a new game).

[The_Tree_Branch]

When Act 2 of Halloween started, I had some faith that shit was going to get better. Then I hear about the new gear treadmill and new patch notes. Extremely disappointed.

Skill balancing seems to have been a complete joke and can be pretty much broken into three buckets. Tool tip fixes, overzealous nerfs, and bug "fixes" (due to the fact that the shit they fixed is still broken - Cantrip Mastery + Mistform anyone? How hard is it to fix...or even test for that matter).

Some good direction pve wise, but damn, Anet just shat on PvP in both forms.

[Bryant Again]

beadnbutter32, on 16 November 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

It is not pointless.  They are status giving items in a social environment.  In any social environment status giving items serve a core function.  To say they are optional is the same as saying trying to win or succeed socially is optional.

Hm, I specified poorly, my bad - or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post? Either way, this next bit will help us.

I brought up TF2's hats because many are highly sought after and none of them (unless they're like one of those set bonuses) have any 'stats'. They're just skins. The bigger point is that even then, players will go way out of their way to get them.

But regardless - and this isn't directed at you, this is just me talking -  what does a gear progression actually do? Well, in a more literal sense, it makes it so you don't get one-shot in the next tier of content. But this is only because of an inflation of numbers so you could progress on the developer's terms, i.e. so they can get as much out of your subscription fee as subtle as possible. It also makes the rest of the game easier, and Guild Wars 2 certainly doesn't need that.

On top of that, however, is it builds a gap between the players: Those who are able to invest the time and effort into acquiring better gear and those who can't. I don't follow a schedule for Guild Wars 2, I can't, and if things keep going the way they're going then I'm screwed. I may not have the time to gather all the gear I need for the next tier, and then I'm stuck behind because my numbers are smaller.

I just don't see a whole lot of good coming from all this.

[shanaeri rynale]

I read many of the posts on the various forums and the undercurrent seemed not to be about not so much about the increased stats, but a feeling of being lied to or betrayed by Arenanet.

It kinda does'nt matter if this is true or not, it's the perception that has and will do the damage. It's kinda a shame this has'nt been explored more in all the articles, blogs and posts. When a customer loses faith in what a company says, then they are (even though it can take a while) less likely to buy anything from said company again.

If this was pre-planned and its a transition phase as some have  said, then IMHO it was handeled catastrophically badly by Arenanet. The best way to have done this, had this been planned months and months ago would have been to back in September, issue a blog saying 'Wow looks what's coming up and outlining the future of the game for the next 6-9 months" Mention the new tier, saying something like we did'nt have time to put this in but don't worry...

Then have the CM team on red alert, answering questions in a concise detailed way and so get the community used to the idea. Also being so close the launch the accusation of breaking promises would be less potent.

The way this was handled is imho a lesson in how NOT to release sensitive news to a fanactical customer base. For sure the community can be viewed as being too crazy, but Arenanet must also share that blame for not handling them in the right way.

Another point which was made on another forum was that perhaps Anet needed to do this, to ensure the health of the game. Now, this reason I can maybe, kinda and wind in the right direction buy however...

If you (say a games company) need to recover from disapointing release or not having as retained customers as you want there are a whole load of things you can do first. Such as giving a roadmap of where the game is going, new bosses to kill with new shiny items, boost the rewards in down levelled zones, introduce a daily quest to give extra karma for doing personal stories with someone etc etc. Basically you try other stuff first.

You also need to look at how similar moves in other games have worked out. The radical turn in direction of SW galaxies NGE, Radiance gear in LOTR, the proven negative effect of 'content locusts' and of power creep has on a game. If they have worked, great do it. If not then avoid at all costs.

The very last, desperate measure when it's all financially about to hit the fan is to bet the company on a U-turn in direction, making your previously unique product a 'me too' and p*ing off your established customer and fan base in the hope your new ones make up for any loss of income from the old narked off ones.

A move which in my experience (not going to say what my RL work is, but I know about this stuff ) seldom works. It's all very puzzling and makes me wonder the intenal state of Anet. It all seems very reactionary and in a state of panic on Arenanet's behalf

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 16 November 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[veirge]

In Isle of Janthir server, LA is not crowded when it is suppose to. Its the peak hours for this server. They are not really in trouble but going there. The new tiers disappointed a lot of people, the casual gamers who have jobs, school, college, family, etc. And mind you, most of these people have disposable income to spend on GW2.

[Trei]

Meanwhile, casual players who never bother to read forums or announcements are still happily mucking around somewhere in Tyria.
Patch? Cool...

[Dasryn]

Trei, on 16 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Meanwhile, casual players who never bother to read forums or announcements are still happily mucking around somewhere in Tyria.
Patch? Cool...

this is what im saying. i just posted a screenshot of low level gameplay last night.  less than 12 hours ago.  people playing thegame are having a blast.  i hav stated this before and stand by the fact that the guru community is so pathetically tiny compared to the grand scheme of things.  the negativity surrounding these forums are NOT indicative of the current state of the game.

personally i think ANet listens to twitter posts and facebook posts more than guru forums!  i think this becuase RB2 is constantly replying to people on facebook and that mean dev guy on twitter actually responded to his tweets.

no dev is responding in here.  guru is niche.

Edited by Fluent Fox, 17 November 2012 - 10:50 AM.
Let's keep it on topic, start another /civil/ thread if you have complaints about the forum!

[Resolve]

Trei, on 16 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Meanwhile, casual players who never bother to read forums or announcements are still happily mucking around somewhere in Tyria.
Patch? Cool...

Casual players who don't spend as much $$...

[Dasryn]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Casual players who don't spend as much $$...

caaual players may not spend as much money as the typical flavor of the month "hardcore" but they sure do stick around a lot longer.  1) because the content takes them longer to complete  2)they arent exposed to he negativity and thus they never get disillusioned about the product and 3) they are the ones that generally love the pve content and exploration and stuff.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

Every MMO is just one business cycle away from ruin. Every MMO is also just 1 update away from being the next big thing.

The only advantage GW2 has in that sense is that they got a ton of money up front, and will get another ton of money on the next paid expansion. In between, they make a little here and there on the gem store, a little more on purchases of the game, they can draw more money by putting the game on sale in a month or so...

In short, they do not rely on subscription fees to measure success or failure. They use the business model of a single player game, with the advantage of some gem store business in between. So, as long as they meet their sales numbers for the title, they're a success. Instead of paying their employees out of subscription revenue, they've already built the cost of the employees into the expenditures of the next expansion.

So, instead of slowly bleeding out as people stop playing, they are already developing the next expansion and treating it like any other single player stand alone.

Look at The Elder Scrolls series. The same business model used by Bethesda for that series is kind of what Anet does with GW franchise.

Other MMOs don't build the cost of current employees into the next expansion, they pay them out of subscription revenues. So when subs drop, people get fired. For guild wars, if people stop playing, the employees aren't affected. They know they're paid until the next expansion. And if the expansion does well, they stay on for another.

This means...

They are free to develop without trying to please the masses. This is good because they are given freedom to be creative rather than reactive, but bad because they really don't have to listen to anybody.

Lastly, let's remember that it's less than 6 months in for this game. It will be a full year before anyone could reasonably say it's 'in trouble'. What we're seeing is common. The honeymoon phase is over, the bloom is off the rose. The same people that quit other MMOs to come here are leaving for the next big thing. Those players have a shelf life of about 1 month on average and it's to be expected. They also happen to be the ones who frequent forums to vent their general dissatisfaction with life, blaming a game for the gaping hole in their souls... weep on, intrepid game travellers!

[Red_Falcon]

shanaeri rynale, on 16 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

snip

The problem is that people will lose trust in any company that doesn't do exactly what they want.
There are lots of people talking very good of Bethesda and a lot talking bad, same for Anet.


The reality is that most people isn't playing endgame because there is no statistical reward for it.
I, you and a few others here may not care for stat buffs and still do content for fun, but we ain't the majority.
The majority wants a sense of power progression :/

[Arquenya]

Red_Falcon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

The majority wants a sense of power progression :/

How would you explain GW's success then .. or did we get power progression by means of new skills?

[Red_Falcon]

Arquenya, on 16 November 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

How would you explain GW's success then .. or did we get power progression by means of new skills?

There was a power progression in GW1 too, just titles instead of gear.

[Resolve]

Red_Falcon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

The problem is that people will lose trust in any company that doesn't do exactly what they want.
There are lots of people talking very good of Bethesda and a lot talking bad, same for Anet.


The reality is that most people isn't playing endgame because there is no statistical reward for it.
I, you and a few others here may not care for stat buffs and still do content for fun, but we ain't the majority.
The majority wants a sense of power progression :/

Yeah, GW1 was a different era. People and games have changed for the better or worse, depending on your  own preferences.

Edited by Resolve, 16 November 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Cosian]

They are doing it because they will sell more gems plain and simple.  Since it is not a subscription based game, doing this to retain the minority of super grinders who obtain the gear via hours and hours of play does not add revenue.  Beneath the super grinders is another group of people that will simply buy it because they want the best stat gear.  While I could give a crap about a legendary skin and would not spend RL cash to get one, I would likely spend yet more money to get better stat gear ...as I did to get my exotics.

Nope ... this is not about catering to some folks that are complaining about progression ... regrettably ...

[Red_Falcon]

Arquenya, on 16 November 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

How would you explain GW's success then .. or did we get power progression by means of new skills?

There was power progression in GW1, just not in gear but in titles.

A lot of very OP pve skills were strictly dependant on rep ranks, and other faction ranks gave you damage reduction or more damage.
Farming those titles/ranks wasn't any different than farming gear for power.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 16 November 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[raspberry jam]

shanaeri rynale, on 16 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I read many of the posts on the various forums and the undercurrent seemed not to be about not so much about the increased stats, but a feeling of being lied to or betrayed by Arenanet.

People are generally not rational. Sorry to say that, but in general, people who like a certain thing will come up with reasons why that thing is good, and vice versa for people who don't like a certain thing. But it's surprisingly rare that those reasons are actually the real reasons why these people like or don't like the thing.

Really when you look at it, the increased stats is a small thing. But people present it to be the drop that makes the cup run over. Which it also is, but... When people say that they feel they have been lied to, what they mean are not explicit lies. No one really care about account bound dyes or even how the game deals with bots. Those are things you can live with. What people do care about is the actual content of the game. DEs. Leveling. Invalidation of zones. Grind. Perhaps most importantly, how all these come together: GW2 is a game where you should be able to have amazing adventures in an open world, fight off centaur invasions together with 200 other players, and so on... That's how the game looked in people's imaginations.

And then the game was released and none of that happened. Instead we get boring, reward-driven leveling that is there only to keep you from reaching the other boring, reward-driven endgame too soon. I mean, why even make a stat based progression in the endgame when they said that "the entire game is the endgame"?

Because when it comes down to it, people bought this game expecting it to not be what Colin, in that famous quote from the manifesto video, said that other MMOs are: "I swing my sword, I swing my sword again". But that is what GW2 is. Depending on when people get fed up with having their expectations broken, they will give you different reasons. Right now it's the ascended items that gets the heat. But in reality it's everything that has happened that doesn't meet people's expectations on the game.

Basically, ANet said "come here and have fun", and people are not having fun.

Red_Falcon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

There was power progression in GW1, just not in gear but in titles.

A lot of very OP pve skills were strictly dependant on rep ranks, and other faction ranks gave you damage reduction or more damage.
Farming those titles/ranks wasn't any different than farming gear for power.

PvE skills were introduced in Nightfall, and back then they (ironically, considering the new ascended items in GW2) were only relevant when fighting Margonites and torment creatures. Later on, more general PvE skills were introduced, but remember that GW1 was wildly popular even before that happened.

[evilbob]

CalmLittleBuddy, on 16 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

The only advantage GW2 has in that sense is that they got a ton of money up front, and will get another ton of money on the next paid expansion. In between, they make a little here and there on the gem store, a little more on purchases of the game, they can draw more money by putting the game on sale in a month or so...

Unfortunately, this is wrong.  I would venture a guess that Anet makes about 10% of its money from box sales - probably less.  The vast, vast majority of its money comes from gem sales, and the majority of its gem sales comes from a tiny fraction of its playerbase.  I know it's hard to believe, but there are a very small number of people who have put more money into this game than you would guess.

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Casual players who don't spend as much $$...

This is true.  Casual players are great:  they have a good time and pad out the game, and they might spend $10 at some point down the line on gems if the devs tune the game well enough.  Maybe - or they may play for a month and leave.  Either way, they got their probably-less-than-$20 from the boxed copy sale of the game (after all the various middle-men get their cut), and that's ok:  but it doesn't run the company.  And it sure doesn't pay for expansions and updates and fixes.

But hardcore players spend hundreds of $$ every month.  There are people who have already put thousands of $$ into this game by their own admission.  One of those people is worth 100 casuals to Anet.  And so yes:  they will address legendary precursor concerns before they will make low-level zones give level-appropriate rewards to all players.  They will create another tier of loot for these people before they worry about starter zone populations.  Their most important market are those people who play the game every day, are constantly pushing the end-game, and drop lots and lots of cash.  It doesn't matter that they make up >5% (probably lower) of the overall population:  THEY are the dedicated people, and THEY are the people that pay Anet's bills.  This is the same in every MMO.  Even WoW wants its hardcore raiders to be happy because those are the guys who have multiple subs, but tons of pets and offline gear, and haven't lapsed since 2004.  Except in this game its even worse because instead of voting with your sub, you vote directly with your wallet.

[FiachSidhe]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Casual players who don't spend as much $$...

Facebook games beg to differ. In fact, casuals are more likely to spend money to get things that hardcores earn in game. Hardcores will grind for items, casuals will buy them. It really comes down to the individual.

[RyphTheFox]

shanaeri rynale, on 16 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I read many of the posts on the various forums and the undercurrent seemed not to be about not so much about the increased stats, but a feeling of being lied to or betrayed by Arenanet.

It kinda does'nt matter if this is true or not, it's the perception that has and will do the damage. It's kinda a shame this has'nt been explored more in all the articles, blogs and posts. When a customer loses faith in what a company says, then they are (even though it can take a while) less likely to buy anything from said company again.

If this was pre-planned and its a transition phase as some have  said, then IMHO it was handeled catastrophically badly by Arenanet. The best way to have done this, had this been planned months and months ago would have been to back in September, issue a blog saying 'Wow looks what's coming up and outlining the future of the game for the next 6-9 months" Mention the new tier, saying something like we did'nt have time to put this in but don't worry...

Then have the CM team on red alert, answering questions in a concise detailed way and so get the community used to the idea. Also being so close the launch the accusation of breaking promises would be less potent.

The way this was handled is imho a lesson in how NOT to release sensitive news to a fanactical customer base. For sure the community can be viewed as being too crazy, but Arenanet must also share that blame for not handling them in the right way.

Another point which was made on another forum was that perhaps Anet needed to do this, to ensure the health of the game. Now, this reason I can maybe, kinda and wind in the right direction buy however...

If you (say a games company) need to recover from disapointing release or not having as retained customers as you want there are a whole load of things you can do first. Such as giving a roadmap of where the game is going, new bosses to kill with new shiny items, boost the rewards in down levelled zones, introduce a daily quest to give extra karma for doing personal stories with someone etc etc. Basically you try other stuff first.

You also need to look at how similar moves in other games have worked out. The radical turn in direction of SW galaxies NGE, Radiance gear in LOTR, the proven negative effect of 'content locusts' and of power creep has on a game. If they have worked, great do it. If not then avoid at all costs.

The very last, desperate measure when it's all financially about to hit the fan is to bet the company on a U-turn in direction, making your previously unique product a 'me too' and p*ing off your established customer and fan base in the hope your new ones make up for any loss of income from the old narked off ones.

A move which in my experience (not going to say what my RL work is, but I know about this stuff ) seldom works. It's all very puzzling and makes me wonder the intenal state of Anet. It all seems very reactionary and in a state of panic on Arenanet's behalf

This just sums it all up.  I'm trying to be objective as possible with this game and Arenanet, but this post accurately describes what ANet has done with this game since the beta started rolling out.  They have consistently kept their customers in the dark about pretty much everything.  

This has be one of the worst companies at managing communities and/or playerbase.  We all remember the massive anxiety that persisted throughout the beta testing period.  They did virtually nothing to assuage the fears and woes of their players.  And now when they do makes some sort of announcement for the game, it gets retracted and then pisses players off even more, See "Ranger" thread just to get a glimpse of that.

I just dont understand why they can't hire some people just to manage their community better.  Being a part of an MMO game, you should be spot on with how you handle your community and they've bungled it far too many times for me to forgive them.  They're worthless and until they can stabilize themselves and figure out what they're doing, it will continually seem to be like the company and game is in a constant flux of playing catch up.  Which would be partially acceptable given that this catch up was to things people have been asking for but PvP is still in a shit state and with no word from the company, other than a dev spouting bullshit like "risk factors", it just looks dismal.  They've lost a player from me sadly.  I love the engine but they're ruining the game.  I've never seen a game progressively get worse from beta to finished product.  BWE1 was amazing and then it just little by little got worse.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

I think, while the thread presents many opinions, I don't think most of us get the whole picture. For that matter, "in trouble" is extremely vague. Are we talking about the financial status of Anet? Player reviews? Because for a lot of these things, if we're assessing GW2 on a large scale, you simply can't do so without actual statistics - e.g. company revenues, player influx, that sort of thing. Anything else is based on conjecture, and I somehow doubt what's posted here and on the forums and on Reddit really represent an accurate picture of the entire population as a whole.

Talking with people who are actually working for Anet - I have a guild mate, for instance, who has frankly been candid about a lot of things - I think the company is doing better than most players give it credit to.

Wait and see. Since when does the player become controlled by the game they're playing?

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 16 November 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[karekiz]

"trouble" - no.  When we full blown see server merges THEN think trouble.

[Asudementio]

RyphTheFox, on 16 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

This just sums it all up.  I'm trying to be objective as possible with this game and Arenanet, but this post accurately describes what ANet has done with this game since the beta started rolling out.  They have consistently kept their customers in the dark about pretty much everything.  

This has be one of the worst companies at managing communities and/or playerbase.  We all remember the massive anxiety that persisted throughout the beta testing period.  They did virtually nothing to assuage the fears and woes of their players.  And now when they do makes some sort of announcement for the game, it gets retracted and then pisses players off even more, See "Ranger" thread just to get a glimpse of that.

I just dont understand why they can't hire some people just to manage their community better.  Being a part of an MMO game, you should be spot on with how you handle your community and they've bungled it far too many times for me to forgive them.  They're worthless and until they can stabilize themselves and figure out what they're doing, it will continually seem to be like the company and game is in a constant flux of playing catch up.  Which would be partially acceptable given that this catch up was to things people have been asking for but PvP is still in a shit state and with no word from the company, other than a dev spouting bullshit like "risk factors", it just looks dismal.  They've lost a player from me sadly.  I love the engine but they're ruining the game.  I've never seen a game progressively get worse from beta to finished product.  BWE1 was amazing and then it just little by little got worse.

They should handle community relations better but i don't blame them for failing to do so; i imagine it is pretty difficult to successfully manage a community that reacts like spoiled children when faced with any sort of change.

[Resolve]

FiachSidhe, on 16 November 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Facebook games beg to differ. In fact, casuals are more likely to spend money to get things that hardcores earn in game. Hardcores will grind for items, casuals will buy them. It really comes down to the individual.

Yeah in the end it is the individual. On average though, you would expect someone who plays this game every day to spend more than someone who just logs on occasionally  and isn't as invested in the game.

For me personally, the more I enjoy/play a game, the more I spend. This has been true with WoT, LoL and GW2.