196 replies to this topic

[MazingerZ]

Asudementio, on 16 November 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

They should handle community relations better but i don't blame them for failing to do so; i imagine it is pretty difficult to successfully manage a community that reacts like spoiled children when faced with any sort of change.

No, this is what damaged SWTOR so badly.  Bioware/EA basically put their fingers in their ears and their thumbs up their butt and refused to talk to the players.  They had an oppressive community moderation team that sent you warnings for anything negative, even critical feedback.  They refused to address the players' main concerns with the game.  Only in like... the last few months has it managed to turn itself around, but the damage has been done.

WoW, when it came out, had excellent community support.  Yes, the forums were a cesspool, but the cream had a tendency to rise to the top.  There were mea culpas when stuff didn't work.  I consider Wrath of the Lich King to be the pinnacle of the community, with open dialogue between the players and the developers, and with ideas and thoughts on the direction of the game.

Yes, the online community is a vocal minority, but they are the ones who attempt to ascend the mountain and carry back down The Word to everyone else.  You muck with them and suddenly there is no medium to carry down things to the playerbase.  And playerbases that do not feel emotionally connected to the game or its team will drop you like a cheap suit when the next big thing comes along.

[BlasBlas]

A lot of statements are slung around in this thread with little facts or evidence of what they are talking about.

How about we back somethings up to show a little credibility?

Is this game in trouble?  

Well do you have projection reports for GW2?  Do you have the statistical analysis on the amount of new incoming players and when it will trend off?  Do you know when the EOL of GW2 is?  I could seriously go on; yet, no one has presented any data that matters, except for hyperbole statements with little value that truly paint the picture that if this game is in trouble.

Edited by BlasBlas, 16 November 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Dokem]

Anet have ingame statistics to make changes into the game. Of course they read GW2Guru and the official forums, but they know forums posters are the volcal minority. So these gear changes are based on what the mayority wants. I'm sure about it.

I never asked or suggested in any forum that I wanted gear progression and I'm very happy about these new progression. So I think they know what they are doing.

[Stovokor X]

FiachSidhe, on 16 November 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Facebook games beg to differ. In fact, casuals are more likely to spend money to get things that hardcores earn in game. Hardcores will grind for items, casuals will buy them. It really comes down to the individual.

You could milk the novelty effect for a while but eventually even the Farmville zombies will get a clue. Zynga ( make of Farmville, Mafia Wars etc ) went public at the height of the hype. Dramatic free-fall is still happening with no end in sight. That business model was built on the notion that casuals will continuously spend money for those virtual items etc.

http://www.dailymail...ed-20-cent.html


GW2 not in trouble but I think Arenanet need to stop being so aggressive at funneling everything towards the gems / shop at this juncture. There should be a balance. They should also stop any early attempts to monetize sPvP etc etc at this stage and build up the systems / infrastructure for that side of the game. That side of the game seems to be in trouble.

[MazingerZ]

Dokem, on 16 November 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Anet have ingame statistics to make changes into the game. Of course they read GW2Guru and the official forums, but they know forums posters are the volcal minority. So these gear changes are based on what the mayority wants. I'm sure about it.

I never asked or suggested in any forum that I wanted gear progression and I'm very happy about these new progression. So I think they know what they are doing.

...What?  Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is a reaction to what they would consider a lack of growth in GW2 or shrinkage.  They don't engage the community on any level, so they have no idea what it wants.  There is no two way communication from the staff.  Their last AMA was some stupid 'I am a developer!' and they handled industry questions.  All the communication in this game consists of is decrees from on high and the people shouting blithely into the air, hoping that something will from their lips to Anet's ear.

[Resolve]

BlasBlas, on 16 November 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

A lot of statements are slung around in this thread with little facts or evidence of what they are talking about.

How about we back somethings up to show a little credibility?

Is this game in trouble?  

Well do you have projection reports for GW2?  Do you have the statistical analysis on the amount of new incoming players and when it will trend off?  Do you know when the EOL of GW2 is?  I could seriously go on; yet, no one has presented any data that matters, except for hyperbole statements with little value that truly paint the picture that if this game is in trouble.

So why do you think Anet decided to add another tier of stats and cause all this controversy?

[Asha2012]

Strawberry Nubcake, on 13 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Dedicated players are people that race through all the content as fast as possible so they can live in Orr.  They tend to bore easily.  Gee, I wonder why.

A not-so-dedicated player like myself spends time playing the game.  I take my time leveling and try to experience everything the game has to offer while working towards my goals.  I have logged nearly 850 hours, have several 80s in exotic gear and I don't have a legendary yet.  I'm not bored.  I'm obviously not a dedicated player according to Anet.

Agreed.  I play the game just about every night but for only maybe three solid hours a night.  Every night i accomplish something but at the same time realize it is going to be a long time before I 100% explore everything this game has to offer.  In around 300 hours of play (at only 3 hours or so a night) I haven't even touched pvp/wvw etc yet let alone exotic, legendary and so on.

All in good time and I've got time.

Maybe it is as simple as this game is just not for as much of "everyone"  as Anet would like it to be.

I am also someone who is very drawn to the look of a game.  I can't play something that looks like a kiddy cartoon.  GW has always maintained a high level of graphical polish.

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

So why do you think Anet decided to add another tier of stats and cause all this controversy?

Because they foolishly hope that people with a more... "traditional" mindset will keep playing.

We all know those people will play for exactly 2 days and then leave again.

[Princess Fatora]

Quote

So why do you think Anet decided to add another tier of stats and cause all this controversy?

(link courtesy of a good friend)

http://www.reuters.c...ymbol=036570.KS

That's why. Notice that the stock was tanking. They were pretty obviously trying to get something positive to sell the analysts, and a growth spurt of a major title would likely have turned this curve around.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have worked that well.

NO company is insane enough to pull a complete 180 on core premises of a product - ANY product - without something serious prodding them to. The entire patch smells like a very quick decision by the upper hats, forcing Anet to fit their content to something new. That's why it's rather poorly thought out and why the reasons Anet gives for this are so filled with contradictions. The poor guys likely don't even know what to do with the rotten apple they have to sell now. That's what happens when you only have a few days to adjust to a new strategy.

It's like when I had to write a marketing spiel for a game I considered sexist garbage with less than a day of time. The result wasn't very good.

I kinda feel sorry for them now.


Edit: The island obviously isn't that, but the agony mechanic and the stat stuff. The agony mechanic especially: it even LOOKS like resistance gear. That kind of mechanic is considered liquid death among MMO developers, for good reason. No player likes it, and it brings nothing useful to the game.

Edited by Princess Fatora, 16 November 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Zybane]

Could you imagine if ANet released GW2 as shallow as it is as a subscription model? They knew this game wouldn't garner a subscription model, that is why they made it B2P.

[Princess Fatora]

Nah. No new game can survive in the current market with a subscription model as long as WoW lives - the quality of the game doesn't matter. That model has been dead for several years, it's a relic from the early 2000s. They likely already got more money/player than they would have with a subscription model.

Notice that I#m not defending them. I am even getting a refund (being processed atm, already approved), despite my earlier opinion not to get one. It's simply the fact of the matter, that's how the market works now.

[BlasBlas]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

So why do you think Anet decided to add another tier of stats and cause all this controversy?

Controversy to what extent?  Do you have figures as to how many people are truly upset by this?  Or you just saying the word Controversy to fit your attitude towards this?

@Princess Fatora:
Blizzard's stock prices have gone down too: http://www.nasdaq.co...&charttype=line
South Korea's economy is going through some rough times.  There are more titles and games that represent NCSoft then GW2.  What proof do you have that this is a direct effect and not a correlation?

[MazingerZ]

The interesting part will be the fallout.  They've already introduced this stuff to the wild (this is where their lack of a goddamned PTR will bite them in the tail)... If it proves to be a poison pill, how will they back out?  I assume they will double-down and instead try to adjust strength to make everything "Ascended" difficult... sans Agony, obviously, to rebalance the scale, as opposed to stripping out the gear... because people who went to the trouble to get it will be pissed that they're basically being "robbed."

Again, releasing this information a week before, and then going through with the patch was the stupidest thing on the planet.  I honestly didn't expect a company to out-*-up EA/Bioware.  I never expected Anet to do it either.  They honestly seemed to have their shit together.

[Zheo]

The reality is there are a number of ways, supposedly, to get Ascended gear.  There was a huge outcry over the news of Ascended gear when the details were unclear.  Im sure that ANet will further address player's concerns going forward.  Also keep in mind they cannot, no matter how hard they try, please everyone.

[Antares]

This kind of whining is far to common in MMOs and life in general today.


Play the game to enjoy it. Live life the same way.

    Just to comment on recent posts:  Arenanet is doing well in sales/profit. NC is the producer.

I do agree that is has become more difficult to stay a top dog in MMOs and most competitive ventures today.
Its not the end of the world. WOW (no, never played it) is still top dog and as Sam C. said....the stories of my death have been greatly exagerated.

Edited by Antares, 16 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Gremlin]

I am beginning to think we have a wave of players coming over from other games just to have a moan about anet gw2 or anything that comes to mind.

If you are not in that group and you bought GW2 expecting a great experience then don't worry you will get it.

5+ years of experience with gw1 and anet tells me that they always listen to their player base and they react with changes and fixes to the game that reflect those comments.
Of course any change that pleases one group is likely to upset another so to that extent they cannot please everyone.

New game with the idea of doing pretty much everything in a different way to the usual mmo
guess what not everything worked out.
So they are changing.
Players said Legendary is too tough to get, so they added an interim class of elite gear.
Get it use it ignore it whatever floats your boat.

Wonder what world of warcraft was like in the first 3 months back in 2004 did they have problems and did they fix them were there complaints ?
Nothing is perfect.

now please fix the camera view and wvw and I will have a happy Christmas.

btw just curious here what would an 8 year subscription to WOW have cost up till now $800+ I am guessing.

Edited by Gremlin, 16 November 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Resolve]

BlasBlas, on 16 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Controversy to what extent?  Do you have figures as to how many people are truly upset by this?  Or you just saying the word Controversy to fit your attitude towards this?

Nice dodge of the question! You seem to love your numbers and figures but actions are just as telling. I'm sure to you this is just a non issue but to many people(go count posts if it'll make you happy), it's an issue.

As for the actual numbers, we will see with future updates. Anet has already proved they cave to complainers so it will be very interesting to see which way they go, the "bored at 80" or "anti-treadmill" side.

[Yazid]

Strawberry Nubcake, on 13 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Dedicated players are people that race through all the content as fast as possible so they can live in Orr.  They tend to bore easily.  Gee, I wonder why.

A not-so-dedicated player like myself spends time playing the game.  I take my time leveling and try to experience everything the game has to offer while working towards my goals.  I have logged nearly 850 hours, have several 80s in exotic gear and I don't have a legendary yet.  I'm not bored.  I'm obviously not a dedicated player according to Anet.

Problem is.

Some people just don't like to have a gazilion of alts, and if you are not leveling different professions/races you'll get bored fast because WvW just ain't enough to keep ou hooked

[BlasBlas]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Nice dodge of the question! You seem to love your numbers and figures but actions are just as telling. I'm sure to you this is just a non issue but to many people(go count posts if it'll make you happy), it's an issue.

As for the actual numbers, we will see with future updates. Anet has already proved they cave to complainers so it will be very interesting to see which way they go, the "bored at 80" or "anti-treadmill" side.

What dodge?  You called this a contraversay.  I asked to what extent.  Love my numbers and figures?  I'm asking for evidence not a bunch of dramatic conjecture.

169 posts, with a majority being upset and some not, out of the hundred's of thousands subscribers does not equate to many people.

Its an issue to a small minority of people which does not make this a "contraversay."

[DuskWolf]

@Gremlin

No, sorry. I've been following GW2 since it was announced in PC Gamer back in '07. The fact of the matter is is that most of the complainers are just like me. We followed the marketing, and we bought in on the ideal. What they delivered is almost a WoW clone, and with every step they bring it closer to being WoW. This ist he antithesis of both Guild Wars 1 and their marketed design goals. They promised us, they swore to us, that the game would not be a watered down WoW clone. The Manifesto was all about that.

What's happened is that they've delivered a game which just isn't really all that different to WoW at all. And when you look at other games on the market out there right now, games like Champions Online, Everquest II, Dungeons & Dragons Online, and Guild Wars 1, all of which are markedly different to WoW, the fact that they backpedalled and made something that was so close to WoW is... well, it's both a disappointment and a betrayal of what they marketed this game as. As fans and loyalists, we feel betrayed and disappointed. GW2 had the potential to be something, instead it's just another also ran, trying to make a grab for the WoW throne.

It'll go down in MMORPG history not as a brilliantly fresh, new, and different thing, but as being much like WAR and TOR, in how they promised but never delivered on any of their promises. And how they altered their game, trying to follow the WoW cash cow, never realising how foolish that was, or why that wouldn't work.

It'll fade into obscurity and be forgotten. It'll never have greatness in its current state. It has potential, yes. And that that will never turn into greatness just makes me feel... sad. But this is a game that's destined to be forgettable.

Edited by DuskWolf, 16 November 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[Resolve]

BlasBlas, on 16 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

What dodge?  You called this a contraversay.  I asked to what extent.  Love my numbers and figures?  I'm asking for evidence not a bunch of dramatic conjecture.

169 posts, with a majority being upset and some not, out of the hundred's of thousands subscribers does not equate to many people.

Its an issue to a small minority of people which does not make this a "contraversay."

Why do you think they are adding a higher level of gear?

The evidence is in Anets actions, past, current and future. The fact that you think adding a treadmill to GW2 is a minor issue says it all really.

[Lucav]

It seems to me they are adding this tier to function as an intermediate step between exotic (really easy to get) and legendary (really difficult to get). The fact that it also functions as a gating mechanism to hinder hardcore players from destroying content as quickly as they usually do is icing on the cake. The real question is whether or not they will add additional tiers after legendary, my guess is no.

[MazingerZ]

Lucav, on 16 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

It seems to me they are adding this tier to function as an intermediate step between exotic (really easy to get) and legendary (really difficult to get). The fact that it also functions as a gating mechanism to hinder hardcore players from destroying content as quickly as they usually do is icing on the cake. The real question is whether or not they will add additional tiers after legendary, my guess is no.

Which would be fine if it was for the overall and obvious power increase in a game they in theory already balanced around Exotics at 80.

People who want to avoid the treadmill do not want to the old content pushed aside because you can only get the latest tier from the one dungeon they put out this patch.  If you could infuse Agony resistance via a standard upgrade slot on the Exotic gear, all the better.  But the Ascended gear has more stats than the current Legendaries (which will be modified to be Ascended level, in terms of stats) and Exotics.

That is everyone's real beef with this.  It is an unexplained, added power bonus.

[raspberry jam]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Which would be fine if it was for the overall and obvious power increase in a game they in theory already balanced around Exotics at 80.

Gonna tell you a secret.

The numbers don't match up. They hit a balance point about 50% above current exotics. The treadmill is coming.

[BlasBlas]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Why do you think they are adding a higher level of gear?

The evidence is in Anets actions, past, current and future. The fact that you think adding a treadmill to GW2 is a minor issue says it all really.

I do not know why they are adding a higher level of gear except for they reasons they stated.  They seem to be reasonable to me.  There was always a treadmill in this game.  It takes time to craft exotics.  It takes time to run dungeons to get that gear.  To get AC gear you have to re-run the AC dungeon several times.  Now, it will take work to get these new items and we do not even know the extent of how long it will take to get these items.  It could be a little less time, a little more time, a lot less time, or a lot more time.  We will find out pretty soon.

Unfortunately, I do not understand your last two sentences to me and what they are referring to.  Probably a miss communication here from both our parts.

My intent on asking for evidence is there are a lot of upset people here throwing around terms and assumptions with no backing.  For example: "hardcore player" and "casual player" and who provides more money to Arenanet.  And when you deemed this as a contraversay.  I only ask for evidence to all of this instead of what seems to be a lot of emotional statements.  I'm not sure how Arenanet's actions ties into this or even their "future actions" which haven't happened yet.

As far as me finding this a minor issue, well I never gave my stance on it honestly, but I don't care.  If I happen to run the dungeons and they are fun and I feel like the gear is worth it, I'll do them.  If not, I won't do them.  This does not break the game for me.  This does not mean Arenanet cannot break the game for me.  Turbine did that with LOTRO.  I left and moved on.

[MazingerZ]

BlasBlas, on 16 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

I do not know why they are adding a higher level of gear except for they reasons they stated.  They seem to be reasonable to me.  There was always a treadmill in this game.  It takes time to craft exotics.  It takes time to run dungeons to get that gear.  To get AC gear you have to re-run the AC dungeon several times.  Now, it will take work to get these new items and we do not even know the extent of how long it will take to get these items.  It could be a little less time, a little more time, a lot less time, or a lot more time.  We will find out pretty soon.

That is not a treadmill.  You've no idea what you are talking about.  That is a track.  You can choose to take the more scenic route, you may choose to pick up a few other things on you way, but the end result is the same as the person who decided to just head for the finish line.  After that, you stop and you decide whether you want to go back down the track and see what you missed or if there was something you want.  What Ascended gear does is move the marker forward another couple hundred miles.  And if you don't run it, then you won't have the same level of ability as the people who choose to.  They will be more powerful than you via a stat system.

That was the beauty of the intent.  The rewards after getting the best gear were cosmetic.  It never hurt your capability, and they never reduced your capability by introducing more powerful gear.  Ascended changed that.

Edited by MazingerZ, 16 November 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Larsen]

What does any of that matter? Nothing in this game can be ruined by power creep, except maybe WvW if it gets way out of hand. There's no "previous raid tier" that can suddenly be soloed, there's no super profitable activity you can only do with insane gear, the real PvP is completely separated from the PvE aspect of the game, and there isn't world PvP at all. Gear matters very little in WvW, most people aren't even level 80 in there and it would be simple to downscale any gear above exotic just as stats are upscaled for lower-level characters. All in all, this game lacks any of the features that can be ruined by power creep. There simply isn't anything to do that you can do significantly better by getting better items. Farming is already trivial, there are almost no dungeons, and there isn't any raid content or any kind of competition anyway.

[Lucav]

MazingerZ, on 16 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Which would be fine if it was for the overall and obvious power increase in a game they in theory already balanced around Exotics at 80.

People who want to avoid the treadmill do not want to the old content pushed aside because you can only get the latest tier from the one dungeon they put out this patch.  If you could infuse Agony resistance via a standard upgrade slot on the Exotic gear, all the better.  But the Ascended gear has more stats than the current Legendaries (which will be modified to be Ascended level, in terms of stats) and Exotics.

That is everyone's real beef with this.  It is an unexplained, added power bonus.

Would you be up in arms if they added a tier between rare and masterwork with intermediate stats? It seems to me that all they are doing is filling in a gap in gear progression with the added benefit of a gating mechanism for hardcore players. The proof in the pudding is if they add any more tiers after legendary with increased stats. If they do, I will be the first to the picket line I assure you. At this point I am indifferent.

[Bloodtau]

If this game wasn't free to play, it would be a ghost town by now.
People can try and defend it all they want but face it, other mmo's that have done bad in recent years and performed better and had more content than GW2 currently has.
People are still here because it's free.

[Resolve]

BlasBlas, on 16 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

I do not know why they are adding a higher level of gear except for they reasons they stated.  They seem to be reasonable to me.  There was always a treadmill in this game.  It takes time to craft exotics.  It takes time to run dungeons to get that gear.  To get AC gear you have to re-run the AC dungeon several times.  Now, it will take work to get these new items and we do not even know the extent of how long it will take to get these items.  It could be a little less time, a little more time, a lot less time, or a lot more time.  We will find out pretty soon.

Unfortunately, I do not understand your last two sentences to me and what they are referring to.  Probably a miss communication here from both our parts.

My intent on asking for evidence is there are a lot of upset people here throwing around terms and assumptions with no backing.  For example: "hardcore player" and "casual player" and who provides more money to Arenanet.  And when you deemed this as a contraversay.  I only ask for evidence to all of this instead of what seems to be a lot of emotional statements.  I'm not sure how Arenanet's actions ties into this or even their "future actions" which haven't happened yet.

As far as me finding this a minor issue, well I never gave my stance on it honestly, but I don't care.  If I happen to run the dungeons and they are fun and I feel like the gear is worth it, I'll do them.  If not, I won't do them.  This does not break the game for me.  This does not mean Arenanet cannot break the game for me.  Turbine did that with LOTRO.  I left and moved on.

Their reasoning was to "bridge the gap" between exotics and legendaries. They do this by adding a new tier of stats. How does that make sense? They could've made ascended have the exact same stats and just took half the time/money a legendary takes to get. That's "bridging the gap".

I think Hardcore players spend more than casual ones and gave my reasoning. Do you think it's the other way around?

Anet have added higher stats for people to get. This isa way to get players who left interested in the game again, ie the "nothing to do at 80" people. If they didn't have anything to gain would Anet be pushing forward with this move and angering people? Of course they wouldn't.

It's weird some people are so passive or uncaring about this. Feedback is pretty important, if everyone was fine with this then what's stopping them from adding another tier and things become impossible to do without a set level of gear. There's already signs of this with the infusion upgrades having different qualities and they even mention needing them for the harder parts. At what point do you start caring? 100 hours of grinding? 1000?