299 replies to this topic

[entropy3]

I really don't think it'll be that bad. Sure, they increased the stats of top items, which makes me a bit worried because they said they wouldn't. But some people are being way too dramatic in my mind. This is my response to all the drama:

1) Give people (or in this case, the company) a second chance. I'm not gonna go around defending A-Nets every move, but they specifically stated in this post that they do not intend to make a gear treadmill. If they do not uphold that statement, then is the time to get angry.

2) The stat increase will not, based on what they have shown us comparing the Ascended stats to the Exotics, dramatically increase your combat effectiveness. You will be fine with your exotics, no matter how elitist you are. And assuming they keep their word, you will always be fine with your exotics.

3) "But what if you want to run the Fractals of the Mists a lot?! You need infused gear! They are forcing it upon us!" - If you really want to run Fractals of the Mists so much, then you will run it enough to get infused gear. Simply spend the time, and you will be rewarded. And if you don't want to run the new dungeon without infused gear, they said it will be attainable in other ways soon. So don't get your panties all up in a bunch.

Basically, people feel an instant pang of betrayal or what not, which is perfectly justified. But if people stopped and thought about how this is really effecting them in the long run, they would surely realize all the hoopla they are making is pointless. A-Net is simply adding a tier between Exotics and Legendaries, while adding an extremely marginal difference between exotics and the upper tiers to appease people who must have the largest numbers (even if in this case it will make such a little difference that it won't matter, even in WvW which is more about strat and # of people then one individuals gear vs. anothers).

[Shadow209]

So they add a gear treadmill, but deny it's existance. At least thats what it seems to me, though we should wait and see how it really turns out.

I agree, that a bit of vertical progression isn't a bad thing, but there should be a goal you can actually reach. The current system with exotics worked fine.

I also agree, that noone would have cared about ascendand being the highest tier, if it was in the game from release.
The thing is, they are releasing it now. You can't just plan a game and make it exactly this way, no matter, what comes. Maybe it was meant to be in the game from the beginning, but they had to rush out GW2 before implementing it. In that case they should have reworked it again, so it still fits into game, even though it's added later.

[Ritualist]

Valkaire, on 14 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

This is a gear treadmill. Let's face it. But, it's not a forced gear treadmill.

You know what's also not forced? Playing.
Increasing stats because there is a part of the population that has nothing left to do and A.Net doesn't have the balls to tell them to suck it, but instead feels the need to change their basic design principles is what led to GW2 after they royally *ed up GW1. Sure, they might not screw it it this time - but based on what we have seen from them in such situations, this really isn't something we should expect. They just aren't good enough for us to expect them to get it right.

[Shayne Hawke]

Not much about this response changes or addresses how I feel.  I'll just have to wait to play the content and feel the true impact of the gear in order to get a better idea of how I really feel about it.

The only thing I picked up on from the post was this:

Quote

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.

A progresion that they facilitate by adding a new set of higher performance gear.  That in itself is not the real concern, but what breaks it is making this gear the only type of gear that can accept an upgrade that will be necessary for completing certain content.  What is really of note here is their choice of words.  Even if they add a gear treadmill to reach their goal of the second sentence, this does not break what they've stated in the first sentence.  Their goal is not to create a gear treadmill, but that is not the same as having a goal to not create a gear treadmill.

A little bit of a leap on my part perhaps, but these subtle elements of their language can let me pick up on things that I feel they don't want to say.

[Rielesh]

Protoss, on 14 November 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

You know what's also not forced? Playing.
Increasing stats because there is a part of the population that has nothing left to do and A.Net doesn't have the balls to tell them to suck it, but instead feels the need to change their basic design principles is what led to GW2 after they royally *ed up GW1. Sure, they might not screw it it this time - but based on what we have seen from them in such situations, this really isn't something we should expect. They just aren't good enough for us to expect them to get it right.

but you have nothing to lose right?
If you are disappointed in Anet but you still enjoy game then by all means continue to play or take break.
Right now you have no other choice you can take pause or get refund stick to forums and watch for next patches if they introduce next tier with black colour then you were right.
and if they not then you might come back and be pleasantly surprised  

you seen what this done lots of complains on official forums and here but there is nothing that can change it if they did not turn back before releasing that blog post. now we can only wait to see what happens in next

Edited by Rielesh, 14 November 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[dannywolt]

I think the system is ingenious:

• The gear level is a one-time upgrade for those who really care about the small stat increase. A gear treadmill is a continually repeated gear increase. This clearly is not.
  
  
• The Ascended armor is being introduced slowly. Plenty of time for even casuals to upgrade.
  
  
• The Infusion system allows A-Net to add the progression of a gear-treadmill without it's effect expanding beyond the Fractals dungeon.  Instead of a gear treadmill it is an Infusion treadmill. Nothing outside of the dungeon is affected by adding new Infusion levels.

Those who like this type of progression will love the dungeon, and those who hate gear treadmills can simply ignore it. Perfect solution.

[Flax]

When you got your first character to level 80, did it take some more playing time before you had full exotics? For me, yes, it took making more money, or I could have gone straight to doing dungeons. But once you had those exotics, you were done stat wise. After the updates, getting there will take a bit longer, but once you're there you'll again be done. I imagine that once this has all settled in it will feel very much like how the game is now, but with the highest tier just a little more expensive. Sounds fine to me .

[Coren]

The fact that they add a new tier if gear doesn't bother me in itself, what bothers me is that ANet always said grind would not give an advantage over skill. The use of exotics initially put me off, but then I saw how easy it was to get them, so it was fine in my book. Exotics would be the top thing to get.

Now we get an other gear tier. Sure it could be just as easy to get as exotics, then why would I bother with exotics anymore?

[MCBiohazard]

Really no matter what Arenanet does or does not do, they're going to be crucified by their own most fanatical devotees. At least the loud ones, anyways. All this talk of shattered dreams, broken promises, tears and acrimony over what is really, despite hype, heightened expectations and prophecy from the sages of the high mountains, just a game. It's really not that big a deal. Nobody will be twisting your arms to continue playing the game if this new content or any other content that's coming down the line doesn't appeal to you. In fact, if you got even a month's worth of enjoyable gameplay out of the $60 box game that GW2 is, I'd say you got a much better deal than most console game releases at the same price point could ever promise these days. Or any other MMO that still wants to charge you a subscription fee. Just calm down, people.

[Serris]

Rielesh, on 14 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

and that is problem? or is community going to complain about free exp pack and demanding 10$ dlc for dungeon?

i never said it was, i don't mind these items as i will be doing the dungeon any way. but yes, the community is going to complain. welcome to the new era, where games are mostly accepted in mainstream and every jerk and whiner joins the community.

[Matsy]

Sorry but I don't by the whole "they wont increase it further" BS, once they give birth to the power creep monster, they will have to keep feeding it.

[Wordsworth]

dannywolt, on 14 November 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

I think the system is ingenious:

• The gear level is a one-time upgrade for those who really care about the small stat increase. A gear treadmill is a continually repeated gear increase. This clearly is not.
  
  
• The Ascended armor is being introduced slowly. Plenty of time for even casuals to upgrade.
  
  
• The Infusion system allows A-Net to add the progression of a gear-treadmill without it's effect expanding beyond the Fractals dungeon.  Instead of a gear treadmill it is an Infusion treadmill. Nothing outside of the dungeon is affected by adding new Infusion levels.

Those who like this type of progression will love the dungeon, and those who hate gear treadmills can simply ignore it. Perfect solution.

So why didn't they just allow Exotics to become infused?

[Lordkrall]

ilr, on 14 November 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

^ "UNUSED DEFENSIVE INFUSION SLOT" ^

Oh, you mean those slots used SPECIFICALLY for combating AGONY which can be found in the DUNGEON.

Based on the information we currently have they might not effect anything in the game other than Agony in any way or form.

Wordsworth, on 14 November 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

So why didn't they just allow Exotics to become infused?

Because it might be hard to code just like that?

They are however quite clear about the fact that they will add Infusion slots to other tiers over time.

[dannywolt]

Wordsworth, on 14 November 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

So why didn't they just allow Exotics to become infused?

Maybe you didn't read the various A-Net statements about Ascended gear, but they wanted another tier to fill the huge gap between exotics and legendarys. It was a good opportunity to introduce it along with the new dungeon mechanic. And as Lordkrall noted, Infusions will also be coming to lower tiers.

[Velicia]

I think a distinction needs to be made.

The people complaining about this new tier of gear are not the people complaining about the lack of progression.

The people complaining about this new tier gear are perfectly in their right to do so. Go and look at Anets GW2 manifesto.
People on the counter argument that this is a good idea, can you really not see why a lot of people are disappointed in this decision?

I cant be the only person who bought this game for the non treadmill/innovative game design, and now after 3 months of live release Anet have done a 180 on their stance!

Don't get me wrong I think GW2 will still be a good game (even with the gear treadmill), but when people feel betrayed by something, it takes an insane amount of work to get that trust back. And truth be told I just don't think Anet can do that now, mostly because of the fact its still such a new game.

[Lordkrall]

Velicia, on 14 November 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I think a distinction needs to be made.

The people complaining about this new tier of gear are not the people complaining about the lack of progression.

The people complaining about this new tier gear are perfectly in their right to do so. Go and look at Anets GW2 manifesto.
People on the counter argument that this is a good idea, can you really not see why a lot of people are disappointed in this decision?

I cant be the only person who bought this game for the non treadmill/innovative game design, and now after 3 months of live release Anet have done a 180 on their stance!

Don't get me wrong I think GW2 will still be a good game (even with the gear treadmill), but when people feel betrayed by something, it takes an insane amount of work to get that trust back. And truth be told I just don't think Anet can do that now, mostly because of the fact its still such a new game.

Actually some of them are.
But then again, those are the people that complain about every single thing, even if it contradicts their first complaints.


Let's wait until we actually see what happens shall we? Before we run around shouting about betrayal and such nonsense.

People heard what they wanted to hear from the Manifesto, not necessarily what ArenaNet was actually saying.

[shanaeri rynale]

What huge gap between Exotic and legendary? They both have identical stats. If they meant in terms of the effort involved in getting one then why not just create a new set of skins and keep the stats the same. I thought the mystic forge recipe items that cost something like 100g+ to make were that inbetween step.

If they wanted them to fall as drops, then why not just recreate the greens system? That worked really well in GW1.

[Zhahz]

Posting a BS explanation for BS doesn't lessen the fact that it's BS.

Still sounds like BS to me.  They said there would be no gear tiers, this adds a tier.  I already have 3 80's in exotics, which I put plenty of effort into doing.  I consider the legendary completely optional and ultra hellish grinds that I have zero interest in doing because there was also supposed to not be hellish grinds - and I refuse to do that BS.  There didn't need to be something in between as far as I'm concerned because I refuse to play mystic forge lotto (I'd rather earn loot via skill than depend on luck, thanks) and refuse to grind the crap out of several aspects of the game.  There is no skill in grinding either.  Getting legendaries involves little skill, some luck, and a willingness to suffer.  No thanks.

So to me, they have caved to the WoW whiners who want progression and are playing the wrong game, and in doing so have gone against what they said this game would be.

I like that I got banned from the official boards for posting these thoughts, which were hardly unique.  ANet isn't very tolerant of people posting anything that isn't "this game is amazing, anet should be worshipped, omg, GW2 is the best game ever."  It's no wonder the official general board barely moves all day.

Edited by Zhahz, 14 November 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Velicia]

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Actually some of them are.
But then again, those are the people that complain about every single thing, even if it contradicts their first complaints.

This is always true, as they say haters going to hate.

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Let's wait until we actually see what happens shall we? Before we run around shouting about betrayal and such nonsense.

But it is a betrayal, while it may be a small increase its still a "grind" to get these items to be on par. ATM I can roll up to any 80 dungeon with my exotics (or even masterwork) and know ill be ok.

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

People heard what they wanted to hear from the Manifesto, not necessarily what ArenaNet was actually saying.

That could be the case if the manifesto was vague, but it was pretty concise.

Taken from: http://www.arena.net...esign-manifesto

Quote

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

[WinterSnowblind]

Shadow209, on 14 November 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

So they add a gear treadmill, but deny it's existance. At least thats what it seems to me, though we should wait and see how it really turns out.

I agree, that a bit of vertical progression isn't a bad thing, but there should be a goal you can actually reach. The current system with exotics worked fine.

I also agree, that noone would have cared about ascendand being the highest tier, if it was in the game from release.
The thing is, they are releasing it now. You can't just plan a game and make it exactly this way, no matter, what comes. Maybe it was meant to be in the game from the beginning, but they had to rush out GW2 before implementing it. In that case they should have reworked it again, so it still fits into game, even though it's added later.

I don't think the intention has ever been to add a treadmill.  I just think there's a lot of players that have a problem with the progression with the game.  Once you hit 80, get your exotic equipment and finish up all the story content, there's a big feeling of "well, what now?" which even some hardcore fans of the game have admitted to.  There's Legendary weapons to work toward, but they require so much investment that they're unreachable for most and the majority of players probably won't ever get one.

The new tier is clearly just designed to fit inbetween exotic and legendary, something else you have to work towards, without being as overwhelming as Legendaries are.  I'm pretty sure this will be a one time thing, so we shouldn't need to worry about the next update adding "Ascended +1's" or any kind of gear treadmill (beyond the current progression curve).

The only thing I think they've done wrong is how they explained it from the get-go.  People were always going to panic and jump to conclusions and if they released a statement like this in the first place, a lot of this could have been avoided.

[lalangamena]

it is a simple "gear gating" for PVE progress similar to what Turbune did in LOTRO with gloom.

it does not affect PVP at all, but the bosses will have agony attack and to kill the bosses you will have to have some infusions.
each tier of the boss will do more agony damage and will require more defensive infusions to beat them...
beating the previous boss will have a a chance to drop a new infused gear etc...

this way the bosses will not be beaten in a single day, but will require some time and grind until players will get their infusions.



on personal note, if they are already stealing ideas from TURBINE, why not to steal the grouping tool from DDO? the best tool there is IMHO

[Lordkrall]

Velicia, on 14 November 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

This is always true, as they say haters going to hate.

But it is a betrayal, while it may be a small increase its still a "grind" to get these items to be on par. ATM I can roll up to any 80 dungeon with my exotics (or even masterwork) and know ill be ok.

That could be the case if the manifesto was vague, but it was pretty concise.

Taken from: http://www.arena.net...esign-manifesto

But didn't you need to "grind" to get those Exotics or Masterwork as well? Or for that matter to get to level 80?
You will still be okay when it comes to 99% of the game. You only need the infusion in the deeper level of the new dungeon. And said dungeon does drop Ascended gear on the lower levels so you can get it before even needing it.

And yet there is nothing in there stating that they would never release items with better stats.

[st0rmie]

Quote

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.

What the hell is he talking about?

There was absolutely no difference in power between exotics and legendaries before.

If they wanted something to fill the gap between the two, in terms of difficulty and effort required to obtain it, why didn't they do that with a class of items that had the same stats as exotics and legendaries?

[Velicia]

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

But didn't you need to "grind" to get those Exotics or Masterwork as well? Or for that matter to get to level 80?

May come as a surprise but no. I was just playing the game, enjoying the story when I hit 80. I think I hit 80 in the zone before Frostgorge Sound.
As for the gear, I have mine through crafting, Im still running in half Masterwork gear and the other half crafted exotics. (again all gained through playing the game, and playing the TP while I play). I understand this is not the case for most people.

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

You will still be okay when it comes to 99% of the game. You only need the infusion in the deeper level of the new dungeon. And said dungeon does drop Ascended gear on the lower levels so you can get it before even needing it.

Yes only 1% (probably less now), but as Murdoch said, its going to get ever bigger.

Lordkrall, on 14 November 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

And yet there is nothing in there stating that they would never release items with better stats.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure this is the epitome of a gear treadmill at max level.


I don't understand why your trying to defend the comments as they are plain and easy to read/interpret. That said I will still have fun in the game, and probably have fun getting this new gear (if time allows).

[Fenice_86]

Guys do u realize that this so called "treadmill" will probably ends up in "farming" 10-20hrs the new dungeon and that's it?
Cry cry cry, and then go farm, because you know u are gonna do it... so just skip the first part. it's not needed.

You say u dont want/need legendaries cause they are outrageous expensive (and it's right) but you also say that u are full exotic and bored by doing dungeons + orr runs... now you have a reason to use the money u stored and new lands to explore and u cry about it?

Seriously... and about making the Manifesto's stuff a matter of principle will not allow you to cry so loud... instead of whining about what they did you should start thinking about WHY they did!
They can see how many players play, they can see how many players are full equipped and how the population flows... if they did this i bet it's because they saw ppl leaving and going away for lack of contents... now they are adding them hoping some ppl will come back.

They are not omniscent and 1 decision cant be good for everyone, problems are mainly within the players (cheating, botting, stealing, scamming, exploiting, nerding 24/7 devouring contents worked to last 6 months but consumed in 2 weeks), Anet has totally different problems than this one

[kaldemeo]

Does it quell your fears, or are you still worried?
I am looking forward to the content now !

[shanaeri rynale]

There is still a gear treadmill  with the introduction of the infusion mechanism. 3 months down the road, new content is out needing you to get a new infusion stat to complete it. Therefore you need grind and farm, grind and farm to get the new infusion upgrade.

The basic stats and protection might remain the same, but you will still need to upgrade the inherant infusion mechanic. Since we cant atm switch out upgrades(I.e replace a rune and still keep the armor) then the only option is to.... Grind new armor...

And so on..

The phrase lipstick on a pig springs to mind

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 14 November 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Velicia, on 14 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

May come as a surprise but no. I was just playing the game, enjoying the story when I hit 80. I think I hit 80 in the zone before Frostgorge Sound.
As for the gear, I have mine through crafting, Im still running in half Masterwork gear and the other half crafted exotics. (again all gained through playing the game, and playing the TP while I play). I understand this is not the case for most people.



Yes only 1% (probably less now), but as Murdoch said, its going to get ever bigger.



Sorry, but I'm pretty sure this is the epitome of a gear treadmill at max level.


I don't understand why your trying to defend the comments as they are plain and easy to read/interpret. That said I will still have fun in the game, and probably have fun getting this new gear (if time allows).

Exactly, and most likely you will be able to get the Ascended gear the exact same way. So why would it be considered grinding if it were not grinding the first time?

In dungeons yes, but seeing as you most likely will be able to craft, loot and WvW for the gear (just like now) that isn't really a problem, no?

No, a gear treadmill is if they add better and better gear all the time. From the post it seems like this is a one of a kind addition. Not something that will be increased regularly.

[AndrewSX]

Matsy, on 14 November 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Sorry but I don't by the whole "they wont increase it further" BS, once they give birth to the power creep monster, they will have to keep feeding it.

This.

over 9000 times.

The problem is not the add of another tier itself.
Heck, if they've said straight up "We need to put this tier to introduce Infusion/agony mechanic - but it's una tantum", then i'd even could get over the + x to stats (also, by removing the boost to stats and leaving as difference the infuse instead of rune slot, everyting would settle) w/o level cap/expansion as motivation, that it's te only thing that would have made some sense.

But if you do it once, you're going in a deep spiral. They will do it again if they see that it's accepted by players as PvE endgame content. They'll do it again because players who asked for this kind of thing, once they've got full ascended, will want more.

Once ignited, this will just matter of time.

[WinterSnowblind]

st0rmie, on 14 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

What the hell is he talking about?

There was absolutely no difference in power between exotics and legendaries before.

If they wanted something to fill the gap between the two, in terms of difficulty and effort required to obtain it, why didn't they do that with a class of items that had the same stats as exotics and legendaries?

They have those with recipes that provide unique skins in the mystic forge.  No one cares about them.