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I can't see any problem on rangers

ranger mesmer thief spvp pvp

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#1 tangoesp

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

Well I played a bit of spvp with my mesmer my thief and recently my ranger.

I have to admit that I'm quite impressive about all of this whining. I normally main 2 supposed op classes and I don't have troubles fighting people on 1v1, nor on 1v2 with my mesmer and sometimes even with my thief. Due to the iniciative high burst.

So I basically did a melee ranger build, built around a knight set. Because I didn't saw any real viable burst build. So I mixed about 2,9k of power with 41% of crit + 23k of hp with 2300 armor. In theory everything looks right, pretty tanky, a lot of evades, 6 seconds of invunerabiliy, 12 seconds of 22% more raw damage, + 2 quickness on demand. Looks good.

So I jumped on several games and gave it a try. I played against both bad and good people. As usual bad people just get obliberated, not as fast as a bursty thief or mesmers. But is normal i'm running knight. And good players did their 1v1 like they could. Because I tear them apart.

All of them. Burst rogues, conditions engineers, bunker guardians, ranged rangers. And obvious "I'm gonna shatter m'kay?" mesmers. But I had to admit, that I need all my CD's up without counting the ulti to kill the mesmer. I didn't get moa'd even once. Is quite easy, the mesmer start to glow pink when he cast moa, just dodge. It's like a big traffic light saying "danger. dodge now".

I'm not sure why this happened. Maybe is because I'm used to play the nerfed class on all games because nobodies want it. And on all the ocassions I did that. I exceled at 1v1. But it taked some time. Beating all warlocks with a feral on BC was not easy and you needed a lot of practice.

But today I didn't feel like, ok this shit need some time before I can't really start to properly 1v1 people. Only taked 5 minutes for me to determine which weapon set is the best for a pure melee ranger. Which one has more burst, and how to bunker against 2 guys with no problems. Better than my thief, and of course, worst than my mesmer. But the mesmer is built for small fights so there is no big deal.

Actually I even feel supporty, with such a big water combo field with my health and 5 second of on demand protection from my pet, and a burst of might from the other.

Maybe the problem was is that I judged bad my rivals. But I really did't felt like they were doing bad. They were dodging my obvious more bursty skill, and some of them sucesfully denied my quickness even with such a weird build.

I'm resuming this: I'm happy with my ranger, I loved my pets, the support I can bring. And I don't feel underpowered compared to another more op classes.

Edit: The build I was using. I was switching SoW and LF utilities for quickness depending on the situation. But I rarely run without a stun breaker.

http://gw2skills.net...VOqkUtEZQxjipIA

Edited by tangoesp, 14 November 2012 - 05:59 PM.


#2 Garethh

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

View Posttangoesp, on 14 November 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Maybe the problem was is that I judged bad my rivals. But I really did't felt like they were doing bad. They were dodging my obvious more bursty skill, and some of them sucesfully denied my quickness even with such a weird build.

I'm resuming this: I'm happy with my ranger, I loved my pets, the support I can bring. And I don't feel underpowered compared to another more op classes.
That's cool, yeah you don't seem to be on the upper scale of competitiveness so no major problems will really come out.
The balance isn't atrocious IF you have good reflexes and know animations, then your decently competent in pug SPvP and whatnot.
If you don't then your just lost.

Melee rangers, I wouldn't see them putting out enough dps against good shatter mesmers short of having a bird pet.
Sure you can avoid most of their shattering (never all if they are competent since it is instant), but phantasms and whatnot will wear you down over time and melee rangers don't have much to deal with them short of sicking a pet on it or trying to outrace them.
Spike thieves, its the same sort of deal, if you can slip in enough dmg between his spikes, you have a shot but that is rare in even skill matchups, extremely rare since near every dps thief runs shortbow, the best kiting weapon in game, and to boot it hits doubly hard against rangers... maybe if you play one-handed sword right with 'hornet sting' with your back to him you can catch him off guard, but with the hefty number of teleports and whatnot.. its kinda tough to really catch them off guard.
Greatsword-sword or axe/shield warriors would seem to fight this matchup allot better, they have a * ton more dps on a spec with only a bit less survivability and mobility.  Lightning reflexes is the only real edge i see to your spec, another free stun break/evade that warriors don't have (making thief basilisk venom useless)

Condi engi's, at least the super popular bomb spec, you just have to avoid the right bombs and keep tapping away at him.  It's an annoying matchup but not usually toooo bad for situationally aware rangers.

Melee rangers don't tend to be able to kill bunker guardians easily.
Just not enough dps, you might be able to deal with some CC bunkering ones with rampage as one, but that's the best of it.

Edit: yeah you're running greatsword, as soon as you swap to it, its a free for all for mesmers.
No on weapon evade and only an immobile block means you have to start popping long CDs in response to their 8~s imob or eat shatters.
The 2 stability procs are really nifty though!
Running 30 in Wilderness Survival could be worthwhile, it gives the best cleansing trait in game :)
(full cleanse every 10s)
'Chance to bleed on critical hit' from skirmishing is terrible, it is a 1s bleed on 2/3 of your crits, or in other words 42 dmg on 1/3 of your attacks... that's like a 14 dmg bump a hit... if you seriously want to stick with the points in skirmishing grab the vigor on being crit or bonus pet dmg (if you go with a raven or eagle which is generally advised) but I'd say putting 10 more in wilderness survival is much more worthwhile.

Right, bird pets, they can hit moving targets which in PvP is wonderful.  Felines miss about half their attacks on average.  Birds don't.  It is a massive gain in dmg especially against mobile enemies (mesmers, thieves, engis[how bombs play out and perma swiftness/vigor means melee pets will rarely hit  them], exc.).  Felines are cool, I had a soft spot from them off launch, but from a min/max point of view, just not worth it.
Moas are really iffy, they can work though.  Canines and spiders are pretty good for a melee spec if you want to look into it.  Spiders give some needed help with kiters (2 ranged imobs) and canines knockdown for 2s and aoe fear (both utterly amazing abilities).

Edited by Garethh, 14 November 2012 - 06:55 PM.


#3 tangoesp

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

You made many good points on your post. As I was saying I just tested it for about an hour and I really couldn't fight against every possible setup. But I didn't feel underpowered in my whole experience.

The 2 stability thing. I'm really not sure of which elite I can choose, the vines can ensure many thief kills and bring some CC to a 1v2 situation but the buffs on the other hand look like something that can make my pet deal more damage (because of the swiftness) and myself because of the critical of fury. I choose the other signet because i'm not sure but I read that It gives a 22% damage increase for 12 seconds also.

Normally I'm running with fury nearly all the time because of having it on weapon swap. That puts my on a critical of 70%. With 200 condition damage that means a 50 bleed tick. It is between a 5%-3% increase of the damage for 46% of my crits. I already have plenty of vigor with the stun breaker and many dodge rolls so picking another tanky trait seems a little redundant for me. And buffing the damage of a pet that isn't normally hitting doesn't really looks like the best choice for me neither.

I aprecciate your feedback.

#4 shiko

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

The ranger is a great duelist, so if you play this in small or 1v1 skirmishes, they will normally win out, but i think the problem lies in the the fact that they are heavily dependent on their utility CDs to fight. I know there are a lot of people that complain about somethings that doesn't need buffing/much attention, but the aspect of a ranger having horridly long cds on their all around utilities, while the shorter ones are situational, and spirits are practically useless in SPvP.

You probably played some people whom don't know how to fight melee rangers/rangers in general, because they are not common in SPvP at all. My main is a ranger, and i can honestly say that they have horrendous movement when they are slowed with cripple/chill. For your build, you do not have empathic bonds, the 30pts in wilderness that pulls of conditions to your pet every 10 seconds, because you wanted to get damage. This will make your only condition removal your well, which is great if the fight sticks around in the same area. For people after facing you the first time, will realize that you run two melee weapons and they could just sit outside of your well and attack you, and the problem with running out side of your well is no condition removal for crippling effects. Even if you have a great sword with swoop, cripple for some reason makes the swoop ranged significantly shorter, meaning it will not go even half the distance, but will take the same amount of time to do the full action.

I think the main thing that is keeping the ranger back is their pet is practically most of their damage, and if someone is running around in a circle, your pet doesn't really even hit him at all, and the ranged pets are really slow at attacking. Maybe if the pet's attack connected more often to a moving target(because the better PvPers aren't going to just stand there especially vs a melee ranger), and/or give us the ability to use the other abilities that the pets have on demand, rather than them randomly activating it.
An example would be you using the stun/daze of a greatsword, followed up by the dog's take down or something. This would probably make the game play more fun, than your dog just randomly casting take down when the guy is evading, or your moa casting the heal spell as you drop your healing well, essentially wasting the cooldown.

I don't think rangers need too much of a buff, as it will be too big of a jump, but there are somethings at the moment that they could tweek just a little that could be a game changer, like the last thing I mentioned.

Also, the ranger, especially with your setup doesn't have any real burst. The swoop is the biggest hitting attack for your weapon set up, and your pet practically does half your damage if it hits, and the only time we do burst is when we swap pets and gain quickness. Also Rampage as One is one of the strongest elites in the game, and it lasts 20 secs :).

As for match ups in 1v1s: (note that the ranger sucks in most things past solo or duo, even though the SB is good when the enemy doesn't pay attention to you)

Warrior - If you have a shortbow, this fight is pretty easy for vs most warriors. As a melee, vs a GS warrior, you have a good chance of winning as long as you are smart enough to dodge the bull charge -> frenzy -> HB, or at least use Signet of Stone on it if he is already pointblank. The mace/shield and hammer will beat the melee ranger, but he cannot catch you.
Mesmer - Shortbow sucks going into chaos armor, since it does small damage but shoots fast, granting the mesmer a bunch of buffs, and you not so much. Confusion kills you. It's a pretty easy fight if you use a longbow and something like a GS or S/WH, where you just zerg them down with rampage, since they tend to be pretty squishy. Just Signet of Stone their mind wrack(when you see the close start running at you).
Guardians - You don't have a chance to kill him, but he can't kill you either unless you just sit there and kill yourself from retaliation. (This means you cannot contest points in SPvP)
Thief - This is more of a coin toss, if they get the opening on you, they have a high chance to kill you. They won't kill you when you have Signet of Stone up, but you will die when he comes back with steal up and you don't have SoS. On the otherhand, if you chose to fight him first, you are superior at range and as long as you don't mindlessly rush your pet at him, and he just shadow steps to you, you should be able to kill him if he is glass cannon and doesn't run. When he runs and stealth, you have to guess where he ran to or is stealthing to, Assuming that he doesn't have more than enough initiative to jump away more than one.
Elementalist - For bunkers, you really can't kill because they just spam snare if you are running a melee ranger, and for range they could just dodge behind pillars. As for scepter they will lose(as if scepter doesn't get wrecked by everything) and the same with D/D. For D/D, your Rampage as One will stop their CC and your bow can still shoot them if they choose to run away with RtL, as long as you have some sort of stability for when they try and cast their updraft.
Engineers - I don't have much of a comment here, as I haven't faced any really good engineers to comment, and I don't PvP with them either(and the mesmer), but it seems that a ranger cannot beat a good engineer, and it seems that way when I watch some of the good engineers stream, but as for the other engineers, I just steam roll them.
Necromancers - This match is also a toss up, but only vs a conditionmancer, since we can stomp a purepower build with out temporary damage immunity. It is more of a control the point. If the necro can live past the duration of your well, then you practically lose if you don't have the necromancer down past a certain health. Melee rangers cannot beat a good conditionmancer at all, so your only hope as a ranger in this match up is a bow.
Rangers - The ranger is OP in this match up, since they have a 100% win ration, this needs serious balancing.

In WvWvW, rangers cannot do much to help contribute to sieges once they take out the units standing in the front of the wall, they lack spamable AoE, and traps doesn't reach far enough with the trait. In terms of shooting down at people, they make it rain on a single person, but once they duck behind LoS, that is the end of it. Your pet is usesless, since it will blow up vs any decent size group, and the ranged ones have a hard time shooting down because of pet AI.


TLDR;
The rangers are good duelist, but that isn't what PvP is about at the moment, and they are suffering because of it. In WvWvW, they have a hard time hitting anything past the enemies standing on the edge of the walls, and volley is the only AoE that hits up there, and even then it is a long cd. In SPvP, they need their utilities to do well, but even then, they are terribly long. Anet should buff them, but not to much, because I believe that they only need minor tweeks here and there to be able to compete.

#5 Garethh

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:58 PM

View Postshiko, on 14 November 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Warrior - If you have a shortbow, this fight is pretty easy for vs most warriors. As a melee, vs a GS warrior, you have a good chance of winning as long as you are smart enough to dodge the bull charge -> frenzy -> HB, or at least use Signet of Stone on it if he is already pointblank. The mace/shield and hammer will beat the melee ranger, but he cannot catch you.
A warrior will win a melee on melee fight with a ranger.
They pull far more consistent dmg and have shield stance and endure pain... trading blows with a good dps spec melee warrior is, in the vast majority of situations, never a good idea.
There is a big gap between good and bad melee warriors though, with most of them they kind of flounder after frenzy->bull's charge->100-blades->whirwind and most to any spec can kill them.
Good ones don't, for one, blow frenzy off the bat, and secondly, easily stall out.
The spec has 5 gap closers (eviscerate or sword leap, shield bash, bull's charge, rush, whirlwind), 2 cripples and constant swiftness so kiting is an utter, utter pain short of a really well played kiting game in a 1v1~ sort of situation.
That and axe auto attacks hits like a truck... most of a hundred blades in dmg but can be used while moving...

I haven't seen a ranger spec that could win that melee game (short of that one bird spike setup and only if the warrior is silly and lets it land with frenzy up)

Guardians have a few solid dmg dealing defensive specs that will kill people...

Ranger GS..
Good against mesmers??
Ugh actually I'll just leave it be, I can't say I really see eye to eye on much you said
(besides power necro, the stability and if signet of stone is up usually is enough to give them a run for their money)
><

Edited by Garethh, 15 November 2012 - 07:45 PM.


#6 shiko

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

View PostGarethh, on 14 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

A warrior will win a melee on melee fight with a ranger.
They pull far more consistent dmg and have shield stance and endure pain... trading blows with a good dps spec melee warrior is, in the vast majority of situations, never a good idea.
There is a big gap between good and bad melee warriors though, with most of them they kind of flounder after frenzy->bull's charge->100-blades->whirwind and most to any spec can kill them.
Good ones don't, for one, blow frenzy off the bat, and secondly, easily stall out.
The spec has 5 gap closers (eviscerate or sword leap, shield bash, bull's charge, rush, whirlwind), 2 cripples and constant swiftness so kiting is an utter, utter pain short of a really well played kiting game in a 1v1~ sort of situation.
That and axe auto attacks hits like a truck... most of a hundred blades in dmg but can be used while moving...

I haven't seen a ranger spec that could win that game (short of that one bird spike setup and only if the warrior is silly and lets it land with frenzy up)

Guardians have a few solid dmg dealing defensive specs that will kill people...

Ranger GS..
Good against mesmers??
Ugh actually I'll just leave it be, I can't say I really see eye to eye on much you said
(besides power necro, the stability and if signet of stone is up usually is enough to give them a run for their money)
><

Yeah, rangers in melee, even with a melee build cannot toe to toe a warrior. As I have stated, it is easy (and by easy you won't take too much dmg) with a shortbow. The shortbow has a great kit with poison, a jumpback evade, a cripple, and a daze/stun effect. It's effective range is 1500, so you can easily kite the warrior outside of their gap closer range. This essentially means that you can get off free hits, that they would take running and you could have enough time to react and roll out of a 600 range bull charge if it gets close enough.

For guardians, yes that have defensive specs that can kill people, but that's only if people are willing to kill themselves on it, since their retaliation is up alot. A ranger could easily avoid this fight to try and take over an objective.

As for ranger GS against mesmers, it is not just the sword by itself, it also matters what's in your secondary. But think about it like this, gap closer, a stun/daze, with clones hitting you and you know that the target you are on is the real mesmer ( judge based off of things like how fast they go down, preconditions that you applied, etc), you could easily follow up with a knockdown since your block will trigger the counter attack(from the clones but it will hit the person you are in melee with as long as you position yourself) and do a 2 second knockdown, as your pet gets in 3+hits. If you do not have your weapon on auto attack, you could wait for bigger moves to use your 3rd hit of the combo as another evade. For the fight, since the mesmer will be running around, you should use your pet to kill any type of phantasms, as they go down in about 2-3 seconds, depending on your pet.

Power necros doesn't have the range to really touch us with an axe, so they would be forced to use staff, where their 2 & 3 doesnt really do anything. Then they have lichform and deathshroud, where vs a ranger with a shortbow and lightning reflex, can take him down without taking much dmg as long as you roll each of the hits that you see coming.
   The cool thing about rangers is that in about 10 seconds, with a SB and lightning reflexes, you can effectively dodge/evade 6 times. 2 times at from full endurance, 2 because of vigor over 10 seconds, and 2 from a 9 second(base) shortbow evade. For fear, you have lightning reflex, and Rampage as One, and other things you decide to spec into.

Edited by shiko, 15 November 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#7 Garethh

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:50 PM

View Postshiko, on 15 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yeah, rangers in melee, even with a melee build cannot toe to toe a warrior. As I have stated, it is easy (and by easy you won't take too much dmg) with a shortbow. The shortbow has a great kit with poison, a jumpback evade, a cripple, and a daze/stun effect. It's effective range is 1500, so you can easily kite the warrior outside of their gap closer range. This essentially means that you can get off free hits, that they would take running and you could have enough time to react and roll out of a 600 range bull charge if it gets close enough.
You're forgetting about the 30s swiftness proc from the elite (on a 48-60s CD) and how moving backwards/sideways creates 1/2 as much distance as forward.
(so the warrior, without a single gap closer will still be moving roughly twice as fast as you, if you want to have your frontal arc towards his so be able to attack him)
Kiting is a tough game to play against good warriors and rarely ever as simple as that explanation.
(rush alone is a 1.6~k range gap closer with swiftness up)

Edited by Garethh, 15 November 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#8 shiko

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:17 PM

The ranger's utility kit is pretty nice depending on what you run, because as much of a gap closer as the warrior has, the rangers have something to counter it, but a shortbow would be your main weapon to stay on if possible at ranged.

If a ranger brings a longbow, they have point blank shot, a sword and horn has a 15sec swiftness(on top of of the 20 from rampage as one) and a double disengage if you don't have auto targeting on. Or a sword with a knockback counter, a daze/stun, and a swoop that is faster than the warrior's GS's rush, but just 100 less distance. Once again if you do not have auto target, you can just jump away. It's kinda cheesy if you never engage at melee range, but that's one of the only ways to beat them lol.

But I only said most warriors, because there are some really tough ones with a lot of experience :P, but most others you could stomp fairly easily especially if they don't know their class well enough.

But the real game changer, although most rangers won't have them is frost trap or muddy terrain, because in PvP most rangers run lightning reflexes and signet of stone, with their 3rd usually being signet of the hunt, wild, or protect me, in favor of being more well rounded as opposed to strict builds vs a single class.

#9 Wordsworth

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

The problem with melee Ranger, from my own experience, is if you face anyone decent... They're simply going to walk out of Serpent Strike's "range", taking advantage of the fact that it displaces your character. The 4 and 5 skills for GS are also easily avoided. In fact for the most part, the 4 skill may as well not exist. In melee the lengthy animation is going to do more harm than good, and makes the actual kicking part of the skill useless outside quickness, and you can't use it to negate ranged damage for the same reason.

#10 Dahk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:32 PM

Honestly, I think the greatsword may take over the role of the sword/horn(or dagger) for a lot of PvPers as a defensive swap weapon.  You don't get the swiftness, but swoop will still get you around quickly.  Now that it has a block similar to the warrior shield, there is a lot of potential in the greatsword as a mobile defensive weapon to swap to.

#11 Garethh

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:47 AM

View PostDahk, on 16 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

Honestly, I think the greatsword may take over the role of the sword/horn(or dagger) for a lot of PvPers as a defensive swap weapon.  You don't get the swiftness, but swoop will still get you around quickly.  Now that it has a block similar to the warrior shield, there is a lot of potential in the greatsword as a mobile defensive weapon to swap to.
For 1v1s.
Warrior shield is a dozen times better in anything else.

Edited by Garethh, 17 November 2012 - 04:47 AM.


#12 jazzbrownie

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:03 AM

Kudos on learning multiple languages, it's something I've never had the patience for.

The problems with rangers are not in pick-up sPvP matches that are really just big cluster*s most of the time, it's with 5v5 tournament play.  There's just no reason to have a ranger in a tournament group when the other classes all bring much more to the table.

#13 Garethh

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:47 PM

View Postjazzbrownie, on 17 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The problems with rangers are not in pick-up sPvP matches that are really just big cluster*s most of the time, it's with 5v5 tournament play.  There's just no reason to have a ranger in a tournament group when the other classes all bring much more to the table.
Rangers can be one of the best 1v1 classes out there, but yeah that only goes so far in TPvP, if they brought any other useful skill to tournies beyond that they would be solid... but they don't...

#14 Kam8T88

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

Rangers have limited options for different builds. Weapons do not perform as well (longbow with its uselessly slow projectile speed). And pets are next to worthless since they lack the ability to hit moving targets.

#15 Trei

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:19 AM

View PostGarethh, on 14 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

...Edit: yeah you're running greatsword, as soon as you swap to it, its a free for all for mesmers.
No on weapon evade and only an immobile block means you h....
It's mobile now.

#16 Garethh

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:46 AM

View PostTrei, on 18 November 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

It's mobile now.
Yet can't stop shattering, phantasms or blurred frenzy... which are the main sources of dps mesmer dmg...
(yes the block 'can' work against the duelist... but that means he is running sword mainhand... sword clones shutdown the block)

Its a definite upgrade to the ability... but I really hate the setup to begin with.
It is powerful in a number of 1v1 situations if you time it well, but short of that it just falls further and further behind the warrior shield stance.

Edited by Garethh, 18 November 2012 - 02:51 AM.


#17 Trei

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:05 AM

View PostGarethh, on 18 November 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Yet can't stop shattering, phantasms or blurred frenzy... which are the main sources of dps mesmer dmg...
(yes the block 'can' work against the duelist... but that means he is running sword mainhand... sword clones shutdown the block)

Its a definite upgrade to the ability... but I really hate the setup to begin with.
It is powerful in a number of 1v1 situations if you time it well, but short of that it just falls further and further behind the warrior shield stance.
It now also basically works just like shield stance against all non-melee attacks - 3 secs full block.

I am not sure how it matches up against blurred frenzy, but if one single opponent skill can shut a player down, I doubt it is an issue of his profession.

#18 Garethh

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

View PostTrei, on 18 November 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

It now also basically works just like shield stance against all non-melee attacks - 3 secs full block.
Not non-melee attacks, attacks out of melee range.
A bit of a difference.

Shield stance ends in 3s or when you want to, ranger block ends when someone gets in melee range and attacks.
That gives a bigger and bigger disadvantage as fights get larger than 1v1s.
(it becomes more and more offensive than deffensive)

#19 Dahk

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostGarethh, on 18 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Not non-melee attacks, attacks out of melee range.
A bit of a difference.

Shield stance ends in 3s or when you want to, ranger block ends when someone gets in melee range and attacks.
That gives a bigger and bigger disadvantage as fights get larger than 1v1s.
(it becomes more and more offensive than deffensive)
...and it ends by knocking down your enemy, which prevents them from attacking you any longer.

Yes, situations where your enemy has stability up or when you're fighting multiple enemies will reduce this effectiveness, but it's still a damn good defensive skill for a 2h weapon.

#20 JROH

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostGarethh, on 18 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Not non-melee attacks, attacks out of melee range.
A bit of a difference.

Shield stance ends in 3s or when you want to, ranger block ends when someone gets in melee range and attacks.
That gives a bigger and bigger disadvantage as fights get larger than 1v1s.
(it becomes more and more offensive than deffensive)

View PostDahk, on 18 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

...and it ends by knocking down your enemy, which prevents them from attacking you any longer.

Yes, situations where your enemy has stability up or when you're fighting multiple enemies will reduce this effectiveness, but it's still a damn good defensive skill for a 2h weapon.

I agree with points made by both of you about it. In terms of pure blocking/damage mitigation, it isn't the best skill in the game, agreed. However, it is one of the best defensive skill options rangers have access to.
Building from that though, based on the way the skill functions with the knockdown, it does have many more offensive options than it does defensive, and it serves as a setup (lay some traps on them when they're on the ground, swoop and pop QZ, depends on the build).
It really adds to the rangers "jack of all trades" thing they have going (being fairly mediocre at everything with more promised but not delivered updates). It isn't the best block, and it isn't the best knockdown, but it can do either to a degree of effectiveness.

#21 Invoky

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

So I rolled a ranger just to see why everyone qq about it. I want some challenge since I already have thf/war/necro.

Maybe because I only played for few hours, or maybe because the people I play against were just bad, but rangers seem fine. I still top score every game and win most 1v1 or even 1 against 2.

Maybe things will change after I get to tourney... but I am waiting.. I want to see how bad it can be... I mean, ranger must be the worst class for pvp since everyone is qq about it right?

#22 JROH

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:34 PM

View PostInvoky, on 19 November 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

So I rolled a ranger just to see why everyone qq about it. I want some challenge since I already have thf/war/necro.

Maybe because I only played for few hours, or maybe because the people I play against were just bad, but rangers seem fine. I still top score every game and win most 1v1 or even 1 against 2.

Maybe things will change after I get to tourney... but I am waiting.. I want to see how bad it can be... I mean, ranger must be the worst class for pvp since everyone is qq about it right?
Jon Peters:

Quote

I do still believe ranger is the profession in most need of improvement after this patch and we will continue to make those improvements.

Seems like your opinion, however opinionated it might be, has been made invalid. Time to go troll somewhere else.

#23 Garethh

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:21 PM

View PostJROH, on 19 November 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

It really adds to the rangers "jack of all trades" thing they have going (being fairly mediocre at everything with more promised but not delivered updates). It isn't the best block, and it isn't the best knockdown, but it can do either to a degree of effectiveness.
The weapon abilities just don't seem to work together well enough.
The block is the weapon's only sort of dmg mitigation short of a 1s daze/stun and a random evade on the spammable...
The weapon has mediocre->bad mobility compared to other classes dps weaponry...
The weapon has little spike dmg and mediocre consistent...

It doesn't have a role short of rellying on a pet, which any weapon can do, lol.
If the daze/stun had some sort of mobility on it too or swiftness/cleansing movement conditions and the spammable and/or maul did notabley more dmg it could be a nifty sort of spike/control weapon.
If maul was tossed for an evade it would be a nifty defensive weapon.
If the block->toss pulled an enemy to you, and maul crippled and a few other tweaks, it would be a nifty control/pet weapon.

But they don't... the abilities seem to have little to no coordination.
And, of course, the 10s weapon swap CD stops those random situational abilities it does have from being just that, since you're stuck in it for the remaining 8~ seconds you don't want it.
At best its just there for the buff to pet dmg for a lil larger bird spike...

Edited by Garethh, 21 November 2012 - 12:24 AM.


#24 JROH

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:26 PM

View PostGarethh, on 20 November 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

The weapon abilities just don't seem to work together well enough.
The block is the weapon's only sort of dmg mitigation short of a 1s daze/stun and a random evade on the spammable...
The weapon has mediocre->bad mobility compared to other classes dps weaponry...
The weapon has little spike dmg and mediocre consistent...

It doesn't have a role short of rellying on a pet, which any weapon can do, lol.
If the daze/stun had some sort of mobility on it too or swiftness/cleansing movement conditions and the spammable and/or maul did notable more dmg it could be a nifty sort of spike/control weapon.
If maul was tossed for an evade it would be a nifty defensive weapon.
If the block->toss pulled and maul crippled and a few other tweaks, it would be a nifty sort of CC weapon.

But it just doesn't, ugh.
And the 10s weapon swap CD tends to kill it, at least in a number of situations, as just a backup weapon for an ability or 2 on it.
At best its just there for the buff to pet dmg for a lil larger bird spike...

Oh and I know, but that's what I meant by the jack of all trades mediocrity thing lol. It has a little bit of everything but isn't good enough to be viable for anything. I would never even call the Greatsword for a ranger even worth using, unless somebody just wants to use something different to do it.

#25 Enillion

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:52 AM

Rangers suffer from two things imho.

The first main issue is mechanic of the class. If you think about it, ranged profession with killable pet, which additionally shares damage potential with it, is flawed by design. To deal damage you must first send pet to the enemy (ofc if it overcome patchfinding issues, unreachable areas etc)
as soon as pet reach the target you start shooting as well, which force pet to chase target back to you missing attacks most of the time. Here goes your shared dps.

Unless, ranger wasn'd designed as ranged profession, but its supposed to melee their target with its pet, and use secondary ranged weapon just to wear down his target a little, before sticking sword in it.

The Second issue is trait placement. Any other profession, to deal damage is supposed to invest mainly in one traitline (power), while ranger to reach comparable damage output need to invest in 2 different traitlines, one for pet and other for his own power. Why both pet statistics (which are supposed to deal half of our damage) and power weren't merged into one traitline will remain mystery to me.

That leaves only condition damage builds  on pair with other professions, which makes me sad panda.

#26 Garethh

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostEnillion, on 21 November 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Rangers suffer from two things imho.

The first main issue is mechanic of the class. If you think about it, ranged profession with killable pet, which additionally shares damage potential with it, is flawed by design. To deal damage you must first send pet to the enemy (ofc if it overcome patchfinding issues, unreachable areas etc)
as soon as pet reach the target you start shooting as well, which force pet to chase target back to you missing attacks most of the time. Here goes your shared dps.

Unless, ranger wasn'd designed as ranged profession, but its supposed to melee their target with its pet, and use secondary ranged weapon just to wear down his target a little, before sticking sword in it.

The Second issue is trait placement. Any other profession, to deal damage is supposed to invest mainly in one traitline (power), while ranger to reach comparable damage output need to invest in 2 different traitlines, one for pet and other for his own power. Why both pet statistics (which are supposed to deal half of our damage) and power weren't merged into one traitline will remain mystery to me.

That leaves only condition damage builds  on pair with other professions, which makes me sad panda.
That's probably a lil bad of a use of 'flawed by design'.  The problems you are listing are actually just details that come after design, simple balancing acts that can be worked out with a lil thought.
Pets being killable is just more risk->reward.  If you control the guy well you can get some extra juice out of the class and block some projectiles while your at it.  Pets being aoe fodder, a 2nd tier trait for half aoe dmg would do wonders for that.
Pathfinding issues are just that, issues in the AI, not concept.
Melee pets missing attacks against unsnared targets moving, for the most part, directly away from them isn't actually a terrible idea.  Having a pet be guaranteed dmg near completely controlled by an AI is a bit silly, a bit too passive yet assured if you will.

I'm not saying that all pets are working wonderfully atm, pet balance/AI is a bit... odd... atm but that is just all Anets fault for rushing out a game and having far too few people working on it still.

Trait placement... I could live with 2 traitlines for direct dmg, but yeah that leads to how our direct dmg trees are just bad.
Beastmastery isn't even a dmg tree after 5 points... marksmen doesn't have anything notable after 10% more dmg with full endurance... skirmishing traits are focused on traps...
It's just horribly, horribly fleshed out ><

Edited by Garethh, 21 November 2012 - 11:51 PM.


#27 Helistin

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

Very interesting. Even the Dev that passed by the official ranger forums said ranger is the profession that needs the most attention. Guess there always will be people who play the 'l2p' card no matter what is the reality.

#28 JROH

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostHelistin, on 21 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Very interesting. Even the Dev that passed by the official ranger forums said ranger is the profession that needs the most attention. Guess there always will be people who play the 'l2p' card no matter what is the reality.

Agreed. Basically when I read through peoples "l2p" arguments I find that people making the arguments think balance is one of two ways. Either they think it means everybody should have a 1 shot kill potential and whoever can dodge better and have better reflexes wins, and there are the people who think there should be no damage potential whatsoever in the form of spike damage, and whoever can use their skills to the maximum potential while dodging and having better reflexes should win.
There never really seems to be any middle ground in a l2p argument.


To add my own ideas about pets, since I have never really shared what I think on them other than my agreement of the mechanics being broken, I'd say that there is something about them that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. To elaborate; I find that while the concept of having a pet is interesting, just as it was in guild wars 1, the implementation with current mechanics makes pets just another source of dps that sometimes have a semi-usable CC or utility of some sort, that the ranger player generally lacks options for on their skill bar.
I don't like this. Just like going back to my jack of all trades, mediocre at all argument for the ranger, I find the pets to be trying to do too much, and not succeeding at enough.
Personally, I read the idea that pets should be turned into full utility and liked it, and I'm going to combine some previously added concepts and add my own twist. Basically, make pets invulnerable, but in doing so take away their ability to do damage. Now, consolidate some of the pets by function so that other professions don't QQ about my next suggestion, which is turning pets function into a basic utility bar. Pets exist to buff you. Pets exist to take damage for you. Pet's can chill/cripple/blind/CC/etc the enemy. Of course add fair cooldowns and condition durations and etc.
Then for damage, traiting into beastmastery and adding a major/master trait would allow pets to either do damage on their activation (if they are activated on the enemy) or if they are buffing the player, give some sort of damage buff like might stacks or something (I'm deriving this idea from Thieves Mug trait).

Yes, it is a rough idea still and many people that choose the ranger profession wouldn't like it because they love the idea of their dps companion they have to watch out for. But from a purely mechanic side (I of course think the idea is cool, but I'm trying no to introduce my own bias) it would by like having a set of slot skills that could perform in ways that the player could not on their own (the idea is also derived from Engineers toolbelts, but with a more dependent on the animal companion type thing) and that could be made better or more efficient through traiting, and could perhaps add some spike damage potential similar to what Mug does for thieves.

It would also give rangers more immediate access to a bunch of options I find that they typically don't have (such as a reliable source of Might, or even retaliation). Of course it would take some examining to get it fine tuned just right, but overall from a competitive aspect I think it would give rangers something that would still feel unique but function in a much more efficient and useful manner. Of course it would completely uproot and redesign the original design of ranger pets, so the GW2 team will never go for the idea because they are of course in love with their own, but it doesn't hurt to add a constructive idea to the melting pot and see what others think of it.

Edited by JROH, 22 November 2012 - 05:38 PM.






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