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Forget about Ascended gear, Has Anet been honest about anything?


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#31 Ardeni

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:14 PM

I didn't bother reading all of it, but I just have to say this:

Do you consider a friend of yours who has agreed to meet you at a cafe 6pm a liar because he had to change his plans for example due to getting sick?

If the answer is no, then Arenanet hasn't lied to us. They have changed the implenetation of the things mentioned. It's not like the dyes would have been this easy to get if they had been account bound, for example. Remember the 1 dye per day thing from BWE1? If a company would have to absolutely stick to everything that was said by every single employee of theirs, they would never give any information about anything. You wouldn't want that either, I suppose.

#32 Var

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:16 PM

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

• Inflation on gem prices is ridiculous. On release date you could buy 100 gems for around 25 silver. Right now you’ll need closer to 90 silver for those same 100 gems. And still very few people actually consider it worthwhile to pay real money for gems to transfer them to gold.

Wait. What the hell does this have to do with promises? This is simple economics: people want gems, people start with a small amount of capital so gems are cheap and buy, as the capital in-game increases and the demand increases, the price of the demanded item will naturally rise until reaching a point at which people cease to purchase. Halloween was a perfect example, the demand for gems skyrocketed because of all the new things in the store, and then dropped when demand was met and people had what they wanted (or people just decided the 1.2g for gems wasn't worth it and bought with cash or just walked away).

You're free to think they didn't keep their promises (and without even knowing where we stand completely just yet) but certain things have nothing to do with promises; like macroeconomics. Dyes topic is also a pretty off-ended point to nitpick considering: a.) you were told about it before release, b.) we have a dye market post release that some of us like to actually use and play with.

Your points, here:

Quote

*4. No need for “LFG” for hours to get into a group.* Yet the cities and the lower level zones are filled with people just looking for a group who wants them so that they can play through a dungeon in explorable mode. This is actually a follow-up to the previous point… if all professions would be equally effective at all roles, then nobody would have a reason to refuse people from their party because they are a ranger and not a guardian.

Also, there isn’t enough motivation to play through story mode dungeons with lower level players. A level 35 player wanting to do Ascalonian Catacombs will have to spend a long time looking for a group, because very few groups actually want a level 35 stranger in their party when they do dungeons. There isn’t any kind of reward for the party for playing with lower level players.

Taking this quote a bit out of context aren't you? This was about dynamic events and the open world exploration; by nature of making the dungeons group based you would always reach a point where people would be looking for groups. Story mode has the issue of reward/effort and that's something that does need to be fixed, but the rest of the point is willful ignorance towards reality and taking things out of context.

Quote

*5. Ever branching story:* with only 1 ending and several knots where branches come together again, these story branches are extremely disappointing.
I would at least have expected different endings if you choose The Vigil, the Durmand Priory or the Order of Whispers.

There are different endings to the their respective arcs, just like every arc has a distinctive story and ending. A human commoner has a very distinct story during the start arc from a human street rat. The fact that branches eventually overlap is an expected point since there aren't an infinite number of choices or solutions available to the story nor did anyone in their right mind have the right to expect such an overwhelming number of unique stories.

Colin's quote is... misleading to a point but its not lying. The human story is vastly different from that of the other races.

#33 Gremlin

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:19 PM

Would I be right in saying that Anet developed the game and Ncsoft marketed it.

So rather than naming and shaming anet for things not yet done we should realise that its the publisher that determines when a game will be marketed.

There must be this semi conflicting relationship between someone trying to finish a game and another group pressing for it to be released by a certain date.

The reality of the business world means that very few if any products are released without problems and the more complicated the product the more bugs.

Yes its an unsatisfactory situation but the game is almost finished its got a few niggles but it does work,

#34 Illein

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

It's funny how the forum culture has changed.

edit - more sad than funny

You know what hasn't changed since the very first day of forums? To use the SEARCH function before you bless the rest of the community with your illuminating opinion on a subject.

Just couldn't use the "What I don't like about the game"-threads already out there, the "What do you thinkt he game is missing" ones, huh?

1. The game released in a pretty polished state - jumping their back now because it wasn't released with all that YOU think necessary is absurd. They released the authenticator very quickly, are fighting the plague that are botters and I don't know of a single person who was hacked, so I am not sure how severe that issue is, mostly people who get hacked are irresponsible with their password and had it coming any way.

2. Not a fan of them being character bound but in all honesty - my warrior has about ~360 colours. I am keen on getting all of them eventually. For my alternative characters, I simply look at which colours I use most or like the most on my warrior and just purchase them again - that's....2-6g each character, I will survive that ;) If they come to change it, fine - if not, I won't cry a river over it either.

3. That's the problem of those who pick their team mates like that, hardly Arena Nets. I've been in groups without a support orientated character just as well and it wasn't much of an issue. But I definitely like to run with a Guardian as they DO offer great support, but it's hardly necessary.

4. I don't need a LFG Too. I wouldn't mind to have the implemented one WORKING - but that's as far an extent as I'd need it. Knowing WHO is looking for WHAT. I'd absolutely dread being thrown together by some random people as it works.

5. Agree with you, the story lines could be more individual. BUT - I felt that all 3 factions pretty much played differently, the choices made in the beginning had at least some consequence, even if it's only at the beginning. It could be a lot more consequent though.

6. It's been stated that the loot system for dungeons and out-door events will be revised, so again - you probably only make them reproaches about not doing it quick enough, which everyone does for the things that they feel is most important anyway ;)

7. They definitely will have to take the blame for that one.

8. I actually enjoy the replayability, for my 100% I went to all sorts of "low level" zones and they've been great fun despite me drastically outlevelling them in a traditional sense. So for me, that promise was kept as well.

9. Crafting is awesome, I make most of my money out of crafting these days.

Comparing the gem-prices of release and now, is ridiculous though, especially if one is complaining about them. Of course they rise, because people don't need gold as urgently now as they did 6 weeks back. I love the ebay remark though. Flat-screen TVs in store are outrageously expensive, I rather go to the local blackmarket to fetch one fallen off a truck somewhere ;)

Edited by Illein, 15 November 2012 - 03:23 PM.


#35 Shadow209

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

What I hate about ANet is all this censorship. Locking a thread is fine, but censoring messages or worse deleting topics and banning the editor, because he criticises ANet? This kind of censorship reminds me of parts of the history, I don't want to be reminded of.

Also they have no possibilities of recovering items, etc.? Been reading this a few times now.
A company like ANet has the knowledge and capability to implement this things with ease. Not doing so is just dilettantish. Either they think their game is perfect and 100% bug-free, or they think, they don't need this kind of tools, because they don't want to offer support anyway.
Maybe they even have this possibilities, but don't care about the players, so they pretent not to have them.


Then again, I don't really have any issues with some of the points. They just changed their mind during development and that's something completely normal. The real issues hav been discussed in multiple topics now.

And the gem rate really just depends on supply and demand. Gems cost so much gold, because people are still willing to buy them for gold and nobody wants to spend RL money on them.

#36 Corvindi

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:28 PM

Originally no one was supposed to be able to buy power.  But just like in the real life, economic power in an MMO is huge.  So as soon as gems for gold was introduced, I knew we were in trouble.

First, to make money off a system that tells players they can choose between spending time playing to obtain something or spending money paying for it implies un-fun and repetitive content (i.e. grind).  Otherwise, who would ever pay when they can have fun playing instead?

People told me it didn't matter because at level 80 gear wouldn't matter.  Since leveling was fairly enjoyable and could be done in several ways and could be done in gear bought with karma or whatever silver I had on hand, I was content in spite of gems for gold.

They said that at level 80 I'd then be able to quickly get the best gear in the game.  And it's true.  Only the very impatient or those with a very short amount of time need to buy gold with gems.

But now look what is happening.  Now the best gear is going to be either whatever gear drops from the newest dungeon or Legendary gear, which is a horrific, time consuming grind that definitely drives people into the cash shop.

#37 Scizzor

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

Sigh. More complaints.

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

*7. No gear treadmill...* yet after we reached max stat gear (exotics), ArenaNet first introduced Legendary weapons, now Ascended armor, and in the future Legendary armor… all with better stats. The rare gear (legendaries) was supposed to differ only in skin, not in stats:

I'm not sure why people don't understand that legendary items don't have better stats than exotics. Yet people continuosly bring them up.

Yes, Ascended items have better stats. Very small from what I can see. Like 10 points total? Nothing to write home about. We don't even know if the extra infused slot even has a stat increase to it. For all we know, it is only useful vs. the skill Agony. Secondly, they said that there was only a backpack and rings classified as Ascended... So no real armor yet.

Edited by Scizzor, 15 November 2012 - 03:31 PM.


#38 FiachSidhe

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

They're a shit company now. Shame, I heard such good things about them from GW1 players.

Remember when home instances were like a super housing system? Couldn't even muster the crappy system from LoTRO. We get a chunk of barren town that sort of changes based on a tiny number of choices, but still offers nothing besides a destination point for a few PS quests.

Releasing unfinished games and over hyping them all the way to launch, seems to be a tradition among mmorpg developers these days. Still, not as bad as SWTOR in terms of missing basics.

and as for the statted items. Considering the stupid, joyless drop rates of the halloween weapons, I can't even imagine how low they'll be.

Edited by FiachSidhe, 15 November 2012 - 03:35 PM.


#39 Draugadan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostB3aT, on 15 November 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Even with ascended armor is still not required to play the game, if you want to FARM the new dungeon you will need to farm the ascended items, if not, no .

Are you serious? How the hell is the game any different from WoW then? By that logic you could say that, in WoW, if you don't want to do raids, you don't have to farm the gear for them. ArenaNet condemned that saying the game forced you into the treadmill, but they're doing the same with their game now.

Honestly, are you people being paid by ArenaNet or what? You defended the cosmetic and gold grinds saying they're optional (though if you didn't do them, you might as well have quit the game, since there was nothing else to do) and now you're defending the stat grind? How can you still be defending the game after the huge number of promises ArenaNet has gone back on?

#40 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostVexies, on 15 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

you can realize its just a game and a damn good one and companies do the best they can for spoiled unrealistic gamers.

Exactly.  GW2 is a fantastic game and they are adding more all the time.  A hell of a lot better than SWTOR that didn't fulfill their promises and aren't working on fulfilling those promises or WOW that actually thinks catering to teenagers is the way to, well maybe it is.

#41 DuskWolf

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:39 PM

It really has been a colossal disappointment.

I was hoping for a game which was a natural evolution of Champions Online. I'm looking for fun, kinetic gameplay which allows and requires people to zip around and be mobile, I was hoping for character building which is similar to CO and Guild Wars 1, where you could truly build your character. I was hoping for fun.

On that count? They failed. The engineer isn't anything like what I would have hoped. It's an incredibly dull class. The design of it is just so timid, it's like they were soiling themselves over the thought of a small-minded minority screamig but this isn't fantasy. How you can make a flamethrower unfun is beyond me. And then you have chainsaws. Why do the engineers not have them as a melee option? The engineer could have been a melee class in steampunk, heavy armour, with a chainsaw and a good (crowd control-oriented) flamethrower as their primary weapon. They could have been backed up by robots with different roles.

We could have had a flamethrower that did things like casting an 'I AM ON FIRE!!!' debuff on foes, which would make them run around screaming, flailing, as if they were actually on fire until one of their companions actually used water or healing on them to deal with it. Or until the debuff timed out on its own. But none of this is there. The flamethrower is just a condition damage device that barely hits, and this touches upon another issue.

Mobs are dumb. In Guild Wars 1, you're used to smart mobs. It's a glorious sight. Melee mobs will body block you to keep you away from ranged and support mobs. There will be some mobs which are good at healing (like the Guardian), who would help with buffing, healing, and resurrecting downed foes in GW1. But GW2 doesn't have this. The combat is an endless zerg. The foe runs at you, and it's a sterile trading of blows back and forth.

In CO, when a foe is about to die, they make a mad dash for a group of allied foes to try and draw you into another fight. In GW2 foes continue to kamikaze-rush you until they die. What this means is that the game is all about the numbers of you versus the numbers of your foe. You swing, they swing. This goes against the more skill-based game that they promised us, and now there's a new tier of items, meaning things are even more number based.

They promised us grandiose cities, they didn't deliver. The cities are tiny when you compare them with truly impressive cities in MMOs. Look at how Champions Online or Everquest II does a city and you'll be impressed. They really have an incredible sense of scale, there's even content in the cities. We were promised that, too, and they didn't deliver. Do you know what else we were promised? Content in the home instances for all races. They didn't deliver on that, either.

So most of the time we spend our time out in the field dealing with zerging mobs in copy-pasted dynamic events. This is a game that could have used another two or three years in the pot, to be honest, because most of it is terrible. But it gets worse. They took out body blocking, thus removing one of a mob's most tactical abilities, same for the player. Being able to physically block a foe (for you or the mob) is a handy tactical maneuver, and that's just not there.

We were promised a companion, because that would be fun. Someone we could take around with us on content to add to the tactical feel of the game. But apparently this would have made things too easy due to the kamikaze, zerging mobs. So what do they do? They take out the companion, they don't deliver on that, eiither. They promise us account-wide dyes, and they backpedal on that and make it per character instead.

They promise us a lack of grind, but the game was grind-heavy in beta 1. And every option that seemed to alleviate the grind was 'rebalanced.' People were even banned for taking advantage of low-priced armour, just because ArenaNet clearly wants you to grind. This sounded alarm bells in my head, and this was one of the things that made me sit back and really look at this game and how much it fails to deliver on every front.

They promised us 'our story,' and our story starts off with us working with Destiny's Edge. Instead we get bait & switched with this Trahearne sylvari who's Universally hated (look for the threads here, on the official forums, on just about every forum, or anywhere on the Internet, and I'm sure you already hate him yourself). Instead of taking orders from our racial Destiny's Edge coordinator, we had him.

And we had him hogging the limelight and attending every mission he shouldn't have. He came with us when he should have been back at base, planning. And then, on the final fight, where his presence as backup might have been helpful? He was completely absent! Now imagine the inverse of this, Destiny's Edge - they stay out of your way and simply give you information to act on. But at the end, in the final fight, they're there to provide backup against Zhaitan. Wouldn't that be amazing?

So they completely failed to deliver on content in the post 50 zones. Then you have the potential of the races. The charr could have had chainsaws, and jetpacks. They could have had races involving their cars as a city activity. They could have used helicopters to get around their large city (if it was large), they could have had a city that looked like the concept art. Instead, it was tame, and quite frankly crap. They completely failed to capitalise on their potential, and in the end, the charr feel like a cheap dollar store knock-off of what they could have been.

Then you have the asura. The asura are stuck with asthetics stolen from games like Phantasy Star Online and Star Ocean 2, they could have had a brilliant uniqueness to them, as they did in Guild Wars 1. But instead they just became the clumsy gnomes of GW2, along with the sparkly, colourful technology that accompanies gnomes. Between GW1 and GW2, apparently the asura became gnomes. Look at their animations, I need say no more.

I could go on, but in general I just feel that they failed to deliver on the artistic front, too. As someone who knows a lot about various forms of forest and jungle life, like even the myriad kinds of mushrooms and such you can find in the real world, I was utterly disappointed by the Disneyland copy-pasta going on, instead of having truly exotic and strange looking plants, they went for this one-dimensional, flat thing that was just so creatively bankrupt that I found it genuinely galling and unsettling.

Oh, and what about armour? It was clearly designed for humans, but then they got lazy. The clipping on the sylvari, asura, and charr is atrocious. We were promised armour that would look good on our races, but instead they decided to go down the cheap route, because we're easy money, we're not going to care, right? Except that I do. That there's so much clipping on every armour piece for charr, sylvari, and asura really bothers me. This laziness is endemic of the game. The game in some areas of its aesthetics just feels completely phoned in.

So yes, I think they failed to deliver on aesthetics, too.

And they failed to deliver on fun gameplay. They could have had the gameplay be fast and vicious, versus intelligent mobs (which I have touched on a little), they could have had a lot more character options for decent tactics (which I have also touched on a little), and it could have looked more like their profession preview videos. Instead, they slowed it down so much. Combat feels as slow as molasses, it takes forever to get anywhere, and it just puts a hamper on the enjoyment of the game.

What Guild Wars 2 failed to deliver on in this regard was flow. In games like GW1 and Champions Online, they dealt with this by providing trash mobs along with tough, tactical mobs. So you'd mop up the trash surrounding the more difficult mobs. And the more difficult mobs would then work together to provide you with a worthy fight, so you go into it with this feeling of building challenge. But GW1 mobs are all trash mobs, except with massive bags of HP, so you just sit around hammering at their massive amounts of HP until they die.

They couldn't make it so that the fights are difficult because they require tactics, instead, mobs have massive amounts of HP. And if their numbers are significantly bigger than yours, they can one-shot you. So it stops being about tactics and it just becomes WoW, where you grind for bigger numbers, so you can take on their numbers. You swing your number-sword, they swing theirs. It's just one sack of HP (you) versus another, with your numbers and their determines who loses what HP on what swing.

The feel of the game just... fails at flow. When you couple this with things like the movement tax (the cost of waypoints), and the mind-meltingly slow movement speed of the characters, it's like they wanted to draw out everything. It's like... it feels like it was meant to be a faster pace game, the game that they promised us. Then they went back on that promise too and slowed the game down to a snail's pace. Look at player movement and tell me you don't feel that that's a thing. That reeks of Nexon's involvement.

So it's just a slow, grindy, shallow, hollow game. Far, far closer to WoW than it was to GW1 or CO. That's how it is, for me. Nothing like what it could have been. I'm still in love with the game it could have been - with the aesthetics, the mechanics, the races. It's just the actual game fails to deliver on all these fronts, and I'd sooner forget it because it's painful for me on that level. I know cognitive dissonance will allow some to delude themselves, but eventually it'll set in and they'll realise what I did.

This isn't the game we were promised. It's the ultimate antithesis of the game we were promised.

And that's what upsets me about the mess that is GW2. It's an exercise in trickery, manipulation, Asian-grinder ideals, an dmost importantly... broken promises. I can't think of one, sole promise they managed to keep. Not one. Every promise that mattered to me is something that was either never true in the first place, or something they've backpedaled on in their efforts to create WoW 2.0. And do we honestly think that this WoW 2.0 is going to fare any better than TOR or WAR? I don't. People will get sick of it and leave.

Those who're openly WoW haters (like me) who're sick of the grind will just leave it out of disgust, out of how much it's ended up like WoW. Those who love WoW will realise that GW2 isd not as good at being WoW as WoW is. So they'll just go back to that. At the end of the day the game is going to see a mass exodus, because it went for the fool's gold. It tried to take a slice from the WoW money-pie. And haven't we learned what idiocy that is?

Haven't we learned, ArenaNet?

I was hoping, hoping it would be more like the less cynical modern games that I enjoy, like Champions Online, like Guild Wars 1. I feel that CO and GW1 do way more to deliver on their promises, their Manifesto, than their own game does! In CO I can see the fast paced combat, the flow, the fun, the lack of grind. In GW1 I can see all of this, too. In GW2 I see the exact opposite. If this could have been the evolution of games like CO and GW1, I would have been the happiest person alive. But as it is? WoW 2.0. I didn't sign up for that. I bought into the idea that this game wouldn't be WoW 2.0.

I bought passionately into that idea. You all know this. And I feel so utterly betrayed.

And ultimately that's what upsets me about GW2, it's the greatest exercise I know of in broken promises. I don't think I've ever felt so let down by a company or product before. Nothing has even come close to the base betrayal I feel. I know some people will say 'EVERYTHING IS FINE!!!' and that the game hasn't already lost most of its playerbase, but hey, TOR fans said that too, as did WAR fans. Didn't change a thing, did it?

And I know that some people will want to call me a liar or make personal attacks, just for speaking the truth. I know that there are people who can't wait to do that. I've seen them in other threads when I've brought these things up. And to be honest? That's kind of pathetic. But tell me that for you this doesn't sense. Tell me that most of this post doesn't ring true for you. Tell me that you haven't suffered these nagging feelings, and that recent choices have just brought them to a head.

I'm still in love with the GW2 that could have been, but the GW2 that is? Utter disappointment, feelings of betrayal, and endless broken promises. I can't bring myself to look at it any more. And you'd be surprised at how big of a deal that is. Normally I can overlook a lot, and for a race like the charr? I could overlook a lot more. But this game is just such a heart-rending disappointment that not even the charr can make me login now.

I'm really sad about all this. I'm sad for the GW2 that could have been.

Coulda woulda shoulda, I know. But if there's any hope that the ArenaNet of yore is still out there, and still listening, I need to voice my thoughts. Maybe there's some chance to gather up the scraps of this shambles and pull it together into something resembling the brilliant experience it deserves to be. That's all I want. I want GW2 to be a great game. The sad truth is is that right now it's not. So many broken promises, just as the OP points out. So many.

#42 FiachSidhe

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostShadow209, on 15 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

What I hate about ANet is all this censorship. Locking a thread is fine, but censoring messages or worse deleting topics and banning the editor, because he criticises ANet? This kind of censorship reminds me of parts of the history, I don't want to be reminded of.

Also they have no possibilities of recovering items, etc.? Been reading this a few times now.
A company like ANet has the knowledge and capability to implement this things with ease. Not doing so is just dilettantish. Either they think their game is perfect and 100% bug-free, or they think, they don't need this kind of tools, because they don't want to offer support anyway.
Maybe they even have this possibilities, but don't care about the players, so they pretent not to have them.


Then again, I don't really have any issues with some of the points. They just changed their mind during development and that's something completely normal. The real issues hav been discussed in multiple topics now.

And the gem rate really just depends on supply and demand. Gems cost so much gold, because people are still willing to buy them for gold and nobody wants to spend RL money on them.

Speaking of which, I was resuspended recently. Not sure when but this is the second time my suspension has ended, but the mods saw fit to keep me off the boards.
I emailed the customer service several screen shots of the bunk reasons my posts have been deleted and infracted. They asked me for my screenname. I gave it to them, immediately resuspended. Last infraction was 20 days ago.

Anet is a petty, cowardly company, who is truly afraid of criticism, and aren't even trying to hide it. "Complaining" is a punishable offense. and "complaining" can literally be anything the moderator doesn't like.

#43 Corvindi

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

More than the dishonesty, I hate the spin attempts.

The latest attempt is to pretend that WvW isn't PvP.  It's just as much PvP as sPvP.  Not including it as part of PvP in their latest statement on this issue doesn't make it any less so.

#44 MandraxUK

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostGremlin, on 15 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Would I be right in saying that Anet developed the game and Ncsoft marketed it.

So rather than naming and shaming anet for things not yet done we should realise that its the publisher that determines when a game will be marketed.

There must be this semi conflicting relationship between someone trying to finish a game and another group pressing for it to be released by a certain date.

The reality of the business world means that very few if any products are released without problems and the more complicated the product the more bugs.

Yes its an unsatisfactory situation but the game is almost finished its got a few niggles but it does work,

It's all very easy to blame others.  EA got the brunt of the hate with BioWare's newest games (SWTOR, ME3, DA2).

People have put Arenanet high on a pedestal for years and years due to their work with Guild Wars, and maybe rightly so, I don't have enough experience with Guild Wars to know whether they were better or worse than other developers.  The bottom line however is that Arenanet's name is on this game too.  If NCSoft are railroading changes through then there has to be a reason for that.  If the game is not as successful as they hoped after spending so much money, then you have to point the finger at Arenanet for judging the market wrong.

At the end of the day, we have no idea whether it's NCSoft pushing or whether this is actually Arenanet making the calls, but there has to be some reason for it that we are not privvy to.  Maybe it's lack of popularity, maybe it's greed, who knows, but I don't like to see publishers or parent companies blamed when there is no evidence to suggest it is the case.

People like to blame Activision for the downfall of Blizzard.  However, as far as I can see, Wrath of the Lich King expansion was where it all started to go wrong for Blizzard.  Wrath was released in 2008, the same year that Activision bought them out.  They were already on their slippery slope.

People don't like to blame the ones they love so they find a convenient third party to direct their anger at.    It's almost like when a husband is unfaithful to his wife, when she finds out, she blames the other woman.

Edited by MandraxUK, 15 November 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#45 DuskWolf

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostDraugadan, on 15 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Are you serious? How the hell is the game any different from WoW then?
It's cognitive dissonance. They paid money (maybe even a lot of money) and because of that they have to delude themselves into believing that this isn't WoW. They have to think that this is the best purchase ever. Give them time. Let the dissonance fade and reality settle in, they'll come to their senses.

Though they're doing themselves a disservice by not being as upset over the betrayal as you or I.

(Gah. Typos. Usually I don't make them. But this whole situation actually has me kind of emotional. Because, hey, I actually believed in ArenaNet. Totally not right for me to feel betrayed, is it?)

Edited by DuskWolf, 15 November 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#46 sty0pa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 15 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Holding ... them... accountable....

Look, my friend, they made a great game. Not everything the wanted to do came off as a flying success.

I just don't get the whole judge and jury aspect of posts like this. They din't do anything beside make a game. You're the one who had unrealistic expectations.

They did pretty damn well compared to what I was expecting.

I generally agree.
However, I don't blithely accept that one can make assertions of fact in the wave of marketing for this game (guesting, for example) that quite clearly aren't ready for prime-time, and then escape scot-free if "whups, we didn't have it ready".

If it's NOT READY don't advertise it.
If it's in as a feature, but you're not sure about whether it's going to make release, then if you mention it in marketing stuff, add caveats.

If you intended to include it (as I expect they did), and it runs into a last-minute bug, your explanation of what happened needs to be at least as comprehensive as the time you spent pimping the feature.

I don't agree with the rage-tone of the first post.
I also don't  believe that a company's marketing department gets to go hog-wild making assertions of features in the game, and then not be held to account when those feature don't make it.

#47 Draugadan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 15 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Totally not right for me to feel betrayed, is it?

Nope, not right at all. You should love them and be happy with the game because... uhm, because.... Just be thankful, damn it!

#48 Specialz

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

It's funny how the forum culture has changed.

edit - more sad than funny
Actually, this forum hasn't changed at all. It has always been full of the whiny self important, end of the world, mob mentality fuel players. The main difference really has been that the hardcore WOW players stopped posting and went back to WOW.

It's funny or sad, but mostly funny for a game to invoke such emotions. In someways this forum sometimes rival all the political forums BS whenever there is a topic about obama, especially after this election. Ofc the main difference being a game is just a game and politics actually affects your well being.

Going back into the past few months, they have always been outraged about everything even the most insignificant thing like the removal of potions. A lot of people seem focus on word, which is fine except they were not a contract and sometimes development can result in a change, whether its good or bad depends entirely on you, but from my experience when it is good nobody seems to care, when it is bad it is the end of the world as we know it. I think guild wars 2 is probably the only game that invokes such doomsday predictions.

But in some ways, all this melodrama that sometimes rivals the likes of final fantasy games, is the result of a highly idealistic group of players. Personally, i went in with very little expectations (fortunately for me it exceeded them) because as someone who has been part of a design products, know your final product will be far different than your initial design.

I used to remember getting flamed for this so let me say this, Arenanet is not your friend or relative; they a for profit company and they will do what it takes to stay in profit. If arenanet wanted to be a charity they would be a non profit gaming company.

#49 Ardeni

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostProtoss, on 15 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

By "friend" you mean a whore, right? I mean, we are PAYING them.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Let's discuss the issue at hand instead of providing analogies, shall we?

A thread with a title "Has Anet been honest about anything?" doesn't really scream for a good quality discussion. What is there to be discussed anyways? All these changes have been discussed individually. Compling them into a wall of text won't provide anything new, except the claim that Arenanet is "lying" to us.

Also, the funny thing about these threads is how they only pick the annoying changes and forget the good ones such as the upcoming change in legendary precursors (any change is good, really), adding a karma reward to daily/monthly achievements and dungeons, removing the orbs of power from WvW and so on. Yes, somebody didn't like these but also no, not everybody hates all the changes that were listed in the OP. I don't like all those changes. I dislike ascended gear, for example. Yet I see the difference between lying and changing plans.

Ps. You could have said that by "friend" I mean a bussiness partner, an upcoming employer who declines a job interview or something like that, but you chose the word whore. I wonder what that tells about you?


#50 MilCs

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:53 PM

I totally agree witht the OP and honestly, anyone that is not trying to fool themselves has to agree that many of the "pilar stones" that were announced just crumbled and fell to the ground.

I still love GW2 more than anything and I have such a pleasure in it that is immeasurable... But I have to say that, out of all of this, I feel a bit hurt with Anet!  I am sure things will still work out, but I am sad with Anet's posture in all of this.

I would also like to mention that I have read this post on the official forums and that I was shocked when I realized it was deleted. This is their manifesto, their promises... the post shows how many of them were completely broken or teared appart! I am used to politicians doing that... Now, a gaming company that I love (you can say I am a fanboy even...)... That I was not expecting!

Bottom line... it is just sad!

#51 DuskWolf

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

View PostSpecialz, on 15 November 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

[...] know your final product will be far different than your initial design.
That's intellectual dishonesty. There's a difference between 'slightly different from the original design' and 'the complete antithesis of the product as it was marketed.' Guild Wars 2 is the latter. If they'd matched some of what they'd marketed, more people would be happy. But that they couldn't even come through on a single promise and developed the opposite thing that they said they would? Well...

It's like being advertised a shiny new porsche, and actually being sold a jalopy VW beetle. We're our own worst enemy when we don't stand up and actually say that companies shouldn't be allowed to do that. We just bend over and take it.

#52 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:59 PM

View Poststy0pa, on 15 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:


I generally agree.
However, I don't blithely accept that one can make assertions of fact in the wave of marketing for this game (guesting, for example) that quite clearly aren't ready for prime-time, and then escape scot-free if "whups, we didn't have it ready".

If it's NOT READY don't advertise it.
If it's in as a feature, but you're not sure about whether it's going to make release, then if you mention it in marketing stuff, add caveats.

If you intended to include it (as I expect they did), and it runs into a last-minute bug, your explanation of what happened needs to be at least as comprehensive as the time you spent pimping the feature.

I don't agree with the rage-tone of the first post.
I also don't  believe that a company's marketing department gets to go hog-wild making assertions of features in the game, and then not be held to account when those feature don't make it.

Yup. My thoughts exactly. We can all can the righteous indignation, and express (TO ANET, not to GURU) our disappointment via email. One well thought out, mildly stated email will go a lot further that 'voicing your displeasure'.

Sometimes I think the poster would rather just rant and feel like he got his revenge than actively try to make suggestions through the correct channels to help fix issues. Banging the table and shouting ICE CREAM at a restaurant will not make dessert come any quicker. It may FEEL more vindicating...

#53 DuskWolf

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:02 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 15 November 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

...so much nonsense...
People voice their thoughts publically because it might knock some sense into other people, for one thing, who're still suffering from delusions via the way of cognitive dissonance. Another reason is to worry the company with public dissent. Seeing a lot of very public dissent that they can't stop will do more to make them change their ways than a nice email.

As has been said, they're a for-profit company. You need to hit them in the wallet. We need to stop bending over and taking it up the arse. They lied to us, they broke their promises, and they betrayed us. We need to tell them that that's not okay. To be honest? I won't be someone's bitch just because of a little thing like cognitive dissonance.

#54 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:04 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 15 November 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

That's intellectual dishonesty. There's a difference between 'slightly different from the original design' and 'the complete antithesis of the product as it was marketed.' Guild Wars 2 is the latter. If they'd matched some of what they'd marketed, more people would be happy. But that they couldn't even come through on a single promise and developed the opposite thing that they said they would? Well...

It's like being advertised a shiny new porsche, and actually being sold a jalopy VW beetle. We're our own worst enemy when we don't stand up and actually say that companies shouldn't be allowed to do that. We just bend over and take it.

Too much hyperbole here to even take serious....

You know who to blame? You. You set up these unattainable expectations based on things they said and then waited and waited... then BAM! Where were you during Beta? Where were you during Beta weekends? NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN.

Good grief, you're acting like someone commited fraud. all they did was sell a pretty darn good video game. YOU had something else in mind and it didn't measure up.

1. I've yet to have to grind.
2. I've found gear makes very little difference.
3. I've not been asked to Tank, Heal, or DPS since joining.
4. Nothing from the store is 'win'.

How am I doing so far?

Tell me what you expected and why it isn't in this game.

#55 Gerroh

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

View PostKratimas, on 15 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Yay another one of these threads in even a bigger wall of text.

Look if you hate the game this much then go play something else.

This game just isn't for you, no biggie.

It really is that simple!

This kind of attitude is a shit attitude and it's as bad as the other extreme where people say "Guild Wars 2 is worthless".
Criticism is to be expected when you release anything to the public, especially an MMO this big and if people do not criticise the game will never improve.
Criticism like this lets us stop to think about the particular topic and helps us decide what kind of feedback we should give Anet. Feedback that will, in turn, change the game for the better(Or such is the hope).
So you can gtfo with your "go play another game" attitude, a lot of us enjoy the game and criticisms like this are attempts to improve it. Remember, just because we're criticising it doesn't mean we don't like it!

#56 Arquenya

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

View PostArdeni, on 15 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

A thread with a title "Has Anet been honest about anything?" doesn't really scream for a good quality discussion. What is there to be discussed anyways? All these changes have been discussed individually. Compling them into a wall of text won't provide anything new, except the claim that Arenanet is "lying" to us.
I think it's good to have a collection of quotes that disprove any "they didn't say that" arguments. It's actually a pretty solid fact finding OP.

It doesn't worry me that the game is what it has become. What is disturbing is that ANet has been telling us that we (analogy) would get a red ferrari, but delivered a black toyota. Which can also be good but definitely isn't a red ferrari.
If you see the list of FACTS in the OP I find that pretty serious.

And the most saddening thing is that they actually could have made that red ferrari but - for one mysterious reason or other - decided against it. It could have been exceptional but they're heading towards the "thirteen in a dozen" category.
My only question is "WHY??".

Edited by Arquenya, 15 November 2012 - 04:26 PM.


#57 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 15 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

People voice their thoughts publically because it might knock some sense into other people, for one thing, who're still suffering from delusions via the way of cognitive dissonance. Another reason is to worry the company with public dissent. Seeing a lot of very public dissent that they can't stop will do more to make them change their ways than a nice email.

As has been said, they're a for-profit company. You need to hit them in the wallet. We need to stop bending over and taking it up the arse. They lied to us, they broke their promises, and they betrayed us. We need to tell them that that's not okay. To be honest? I won't be someone's bitch just because of a little thing like cognitive dissonance.

No one has been in my arse. I assure you.

I was an anti GW2 guy who joined the beta to debunk the claims they made. I found they did a good job and stayed.

Expectation, bro.

You thought you were getting the game in your head.

Edited by Leyana, 15 November 2012 - 11:19 PM.
No


#58 Gremlin

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostMandraxUK, on 15 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

It's all very easy to blame others.  EA got the brunt of the hate with BioWare's newest games (SWTOR, ME3, DA2).

People have put Arenanet high on a pedestal for years and years due to their work with Guild Wars, and maybe rightly so, I don't have enough experience with Guild Wars to know whether they were better or worse than other developers.  The bottom line however is that Arenanet's name is on this game too.  If NCSoft are railroading changes through then there has to be a reason for that.  If the game is not as successful as they hoped after spending so much money, then you have to point the finger at Arenanet for judging the market wrong.

At the end of the day, we have no idea whether it's NCSoft pushing or whether this is actually Arenanet making the calls, but there has to be some reason for it that we are not privvy to.  Maybe it's lack of popularity, maybe it's greed, who knows, but I don't like to see publishers or parent companies blamed when there is no evidence to suggest it is the case.

People like to blame Activision for the downfall of Blizzard.  However, as far as I can see, Wrath of the Lich King expansion was where it all started to go wrong for Blizzard.  Wrath was released in 2008, the same year that Activision bought them out.  They were already on their slippery slope.

People don't like to blame the ones they love so they find a convenient third party to direct their anger at. It's almost like when a husband is unfaithful to his wife, when she finds out, she blames the other woman.

I could be wrong but as I understand the gameing world, small companies develop games and big companies finance the development and then publish them.
This leads to a situation where the developer gets the money cut off if they push too far passt the agreed to release date.

Lets face it a programmer will never be happy untill something is 100% perfect.
But others want it out there making money.

Anyway I am on the very happy side of the fan base I whine and complain a lot but for me this game is on a whole level higher than gw1 and other games I have played.
GW1 was only the second game to keep me playing for over 5 years.
I expect this one to do that too.

Make wvw have parity in numbers so you have near max capacity match ups is my number one priority fix.
Guesting is 2
Camera view is 3
Dungeon improvements perhaps option to do them with Ai instead of ignorant patronising elitist jerk help
Not bothered about legendary weapons as the cost is completely ott for what you get, only someone extremely vain or with money to burn would even bother.

#59 Vexies

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:09 PM

What I find most humorous is all the vitriol and emotional gnashing of teeth.  Its like some people just found out that Santa Claus is a myth.  Realistic people saw a list of IDEAS, guidelines and goals that they wanted to see realized.  They are not always practical. They are not always possible under the constrains of a realistic deadline or technical limitations and most importantly in the end they might not be economically feasible or work as intended once implemented.

As with all ideas they always look better on paper than in the real, cold, butt hurt infused world of let downs and disappointment.  ANet is a victim of a rabid fan base creating a religion of sorts out of ideas and ideals that while sounding good once blown all out of proportion no game could ever hope to live up to.

Now you have sour gowns.  Well if you take one lesson out of this, perhaps it should be that you realize a game.. is a game and a company is a entity that primarily needs to make money.  In the end its up to you to decide if the product is quality, well supported and most importantly do you enjoy it? if not then by all means seek your enjoyment else where but stop with the hopes and dreams crushed, betrayed crap.

its a game get over it already.

Edited by Vexies, 15 November 2012 - 04:20 PM.


#60 FiachSidhe

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:11 PM

Speaking of handling things poorly, I see the shameless moderators over at official boards are doing their usual KGB-style silencing methods. The *ers are so lazy and inept, that they neglect to delete the posts responding to the things they don't want people to read.

Edited by Leyana, 15 November 2012 - 11:20 PM.
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