553 replies to this topic

[JONO51]

Rickter, on 15 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

personally i think Guru should adopt ANet's forum policies - delete anything negative about the game being posted.

why?

because think about it, if you have a complaint, you throw it in a suggestion box or contact support directly.  threads like these serve no purpose because it ALWAYS boils down to unconstructive, supporters vs. non supporters.

besides, it will not get heard.  ANet does not care about one little thread on a minority guild wars forum.  when im in game actually playing, people are having a great time.  they are having fun and they are content with the upcoming changes.  when ascended armor is mentioned it gets shut down by the community that matters - the ones actually playing the game.

thats what ANet listens to.

Guru already has a solution to your problem. Every time somebody posts a complaint, just add that person to your ignore list. There. You'll never have to read another complaint again.  Problem solved. Next.

[Red_Falcon]

raspberry jam, on 16 November 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If you have read so many of my posts as you claim, you should have seen my suggestions already. Primarily, I'd like to see a focus on making early- and mid-game more fun, and make it worthwhile to return to. Improve the downscaling so that when people return to those areas, they have the same experience as when they originally played in them (but with loot that is appropriate). Change the mystic forge to remove the random element from it, and change the trading post - make it fully anonymous and remove the ability to select list price to make it more resistent to price changes, and to fight inflation.
Oh, and, make Elixir X nonrandom.

I also have other points of note but they're not going to do those. Regardless, I want to affect the changes I can affect.

My wishlist is even longer than yours, starting with much larger WvW maps and ending with complete changes in itemization (back to GW1 same-stats-different-mods), but guess what, none of if it going to happen regardless if I know hundreds who would love to see this.

Radical changes on fundamental mechanics are most likely not happening in a released game, we just gotta deal with it.

Edited by Shadok, 17 November 2012 - 12:52 AM.
removed non-contributory content from post

[Songbringer]

Dokem, on 15 November 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I only care that I have fun playing this game. The rest is drama.

Everyone adopt this to their game style...o wait then we wouldn't need guru because no one would have to flame about how little fun they are having.

It boils down to if you aren't having fun then don't play. If you are then play. If all you want to do is bash Anet about things they didn't get perfect then just stop playing because you aren't having fun. Just enjoy the game the way it is and look forward to the patches and new content. Post your opinion on things but don't bash Anet saying how they failed to produce exactly what you wanted.

This is coming from someone who is highly critical of Anet and I do believe they have done a lot wrong but guess what...I am enjoying a game I paid for and when I no longer enjoy it I will move on...to the new COD

[RabidusIncendia]

Red_Falcon, on 16 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

I'm just having fun of him.
I know you're quitting over this update but don't become another of those sitting here all day crying please. We have enough of those.

Yeah like I said I'll be gone pretty soon.  I'd be a hypocrite to rip on infinite retro to flame a game he no longer had a stake in for months if I did the same, and I've better things to do.  I'm just still a little pissed >.>

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 16 November 2012 - 11:19 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

RabidusIncendia, on 16 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Yeah like I said I'll be gone pretty soon.  I'd be a hypocrite to rip on infinite retro to flame a game he no longer had a stake in for months if I did the same, and I've better things to do.  I'm just still a little pissed >.>

Sad to see you go, you were one of my fav posters here.
Perhaps you'll be back when Anet employee loot some common sense, eh.

[raspberry jam]

Red_Falcon, on 16 November 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

My wishlist is even longer than yours, starting with much larger WvW maps and ending with complete changes in itemization (back to GW1 same-stats-different-mods), but guess what, none of if it going to happen regardless if I know hundreds who would love to see this.

Radical changes on fundamental mechanics are most likely not happening in a released game, we just gotta deal with it.

None of the things I listed are fundamental mechanics, except possibly the trading post. The size of WvW maps are not fundamental mechanics either, but it would be catastrophic to make them larger (they are already too large). Fact of the matter is that it's relatively easy to do the - entirely non-radical - changes necessary to make GW2 resemble what they said it would be.

[Symbiont]

arenanet is not afraid to reiterate their philosophy

Edited by Symbiont, 17 November 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[DuskWolf]

GW Corrupted, on 16 November 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

There are plenty of other people worthy of talking to other than ANet.  Why are you so invested in others' conversations that you think they should be deleted?

The obvious: Reasonable doubt.

There's some part of his brain that's pushing past the wall of cognitive dissonance, and he's slowly beginning to realise that this isn't the incredible game he deludes himself into believing it is. That the money he spent might not have been justified. That they actually have a point and that there are a lot of logical, constructive, genuine arguments against the current state of the game. And ultimately, if you remove these things, it makes it much more easy for you to delude yourself into believing that GW2 in its current state is brilliant.

Personally, I think it'd be more helpful if he'd come down to reality and complain with the rest of us. The more people voicing concern against this becoming a monotonous, treadmill game, the more chance we have of actually seeing it fixed. A lot of things need to be done, but one is to focus more on fun, varied content instead of adding a treadmill. The problem with GW2 is that it keeps implementing content that isn't fun. I'll explain.

So... due to a friend's pesterings, I poked my nose into the new Lost Shores content. What did it have me doing? Gathering flotsam and jetsam from a beach. So I was essentially a janitor, and that's the problem with WoW - in WoW you're a janitor with weapons, in GW2 you're mostly a janitor with weapons. The content just simply isn't fun. It's copy-pasted, too. It mostly revolves around either kill thing, or press button to interact with thing.

If the content was fun, then they wouldn't need a treadmill. The treadmill is operant conditioning through and through, it's taking advantage of weak-minded addictions in order to make up for a game which simply isn't fun. But there are plenty of single- and multi-player games which don't need a treadmill to be fun. I was recently playing the indie game Deadlight. That didn't need one, it was fun because it was atmospheric and I was pulled into the story. Arguments that state that a treadmill is needed are fallacious bordering on felonious.

And GW2 needs a treadmill. Why does it? The content isn't fun. In The Secret World you have investigations to break up things. In Champions Online you have neat missions like the sky carrier defence, or the Whiteout investigations (where you learn about a race of shapeshifting aliens, and that mission is filled with paranoia, it's great). In Torchlight II you have puzzle rooms in dungeons that you can solve with friends.

Not only that, but they could make the combat more fun. They could speed up movement speed of players and foes inside and outside of combat, they could make it more nippy and fun feeling, they could provide a greater variety of skills (rather than most skills being copy-pasted versions of other skills with different skins), they could have their AI be tactical (like buffing, healing, and resurrecting friendlies). These are things that games like GW1 and Champions Online already do. It wouldn't be impossible to put these things in GW2.

Let me put an idea in your head right now: Chainsaws. Engineers are desperate right now for a good weapon, and imagine how fun that would be! And how about mobile drones? How about an arachnidrone which you could switch between healing and attack modes? It's something you'd have to defend, but in attack mode it could help defend you. There are so many things you could do with the engineer to make it more fun. And that's what this game lacks - fun.

It doesn't have fun, varied content. It has stale, copy-pasted content. The same goes for combat skills. Now, they could obey the rule of fun and improve the combat and add more variety to the content. They could put in chainsaws and some fun actual puzzles in jumping puzzle areas, maybe riddles and things, you know, to break up the monotony. They could do that, but what are they doing instead? They're adding a treadmill.

The treadmill is the most predatory thing you could add to an MMORPG. Why? It preys on the weak-of-mind and their addictive personalities, it makes someone want to play with the promise of bigger numbers. Opernat conditioning. That's lazy. They know it. I know it. That's the easy answer. So instead of fixing their professions, their combat, and their content, they're just going to opt for addicting people to treadmills instead. Well that's great.

Now, here's the thing. I think Rickter and people like him are beginning to see why there are complaints about this, why it's depressing. And their cognitive dissonance is fading. I'm hoping that soon enough they'll join with complaints like mine so that we can be a unified voice against this nonsense. Is operant conditioning as a form of content okay? Do we really like treadmills? Really? I think it's not okay. Let's tell ArenaNet that, let's tell them not to opt for the lazy answer.

So... you guys go back to picking up trash off the beaches, as monotonous and bloody dull as that is. I'll go and play something that's fun. Again, the rule of fun matters, here. I just want to know whom it was at ArenaNet that thought that picking up trash off a beach equated to fun content. I want to know because I want to slap them, and then I might slap them again because that would be cathartic. All the time I've been talking about how GW2 embraces its ability to be unfun. It shouldn't. It really shouldn't.

Again, I'll note, that GW2 is the only game I know of which manages to have an unfun flamethrower. They could make it fun, but they're adding a treadmill. So no, I don't think that's okay. I'm still hoping that the ArenaNet I once liked is still in there, somewhere, and that they're going to do something about this. But really, people... can we set aside the cognitive dissonance? This isn't a fun game. That's why they're adding a treadmill.

Let's help them figure out why this isn't a fun game, and demand that they at least try to fix that, instead of opting for the easy way out (turning GW2 into WoW).

[Di-Dorval]

Ardeni, on 15 November 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

I didn't bother reading all of it, but I just have to say this:

Do you consider a friend of yours who has agreed to meet you at a cafe 6pm a liar because he had to change his plans for example due to getting sick?

If the answer is no, then Arenanet hasn't lied to us. They have changed the implenetation of the things mentioned. It's not like the dyes would have been this easy to get if they had been account bound, for example. Remember the 1 dye per day thing from BWE1? If a company would have to absolutely stick to everything that was said by every single employee of theirs, they would never give any information about anything. You wouldn't want that either, I suppose.

Yes yes, enterprises are just like friends. ahah.

[Keepy]

ok simple answer, no.

[Heart Collector]

Yeah, they were honest about the type of game they were making. I got pretty much what I was lead to expect through their own blogs, comments, discussions with fans and my own deductions and common sense, and am enjoying myself greatly in the game. Sorry you don't like the game but it's really not for everyone.

[ViM]

The knights in shining armor are out in full force to defend the great, honest, infallible ArenaNet. How could people love being lied to this much?

[Ravnodaus]

DuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

The obvious: Reasonable doubt.

There's some part of his brain that's pushing past the wall of cognitive dissonance, and he's slowly beginning to realise that this isn't the incredible game he deludes himself into believing it is. That the money he spent might not have been justified. That they actually have a point and that there are a lot of logical, constructive, genuine arguments against the current state of the game. And ultimately, if you remove these things, it makes it much more easy for you to delude yourself into believing that GW2 in its current state is brilliant.

Personally, I think it'd be more helpful if he'd come down to reality and complain with the rest of us. The more people voicing concern against this becoming a monotonous, treadmill game, the more chance we have of actually seeing it fixed. A lot of things need to be done, but one is to focus more on fun, varied content instead of adding a treadmill. The problem with GW2 is that it keeps implementing content that isn't fun. I'll explain.

So... due to a friend's pesterings, I poked my nose into the new Lost Shores content. What did it have me doing? Gathering flotsam and jetsam from a beach. So I was essentially a janitor, and that's the problem with WoW - in WoW you're a janitor with weapons, in GW2 you're mostly a janitor with weapons. The content just simply isn't fun. It's copy-pasted, too. It mostly revolves around either kill thing, or press button to interact with thing.

If the content was fun, then they wouldn't need a treadmill. The treadmill is operant conditioning through and through, it's taking advantage of weak-minded addictions in order to make up for a game which simply isn't fun. But there are plenty of single- and multi-player games which don't need a treadmill to be fun. I was recently playing the indie game Deadlight. That didn't need one, it was fun because it was atmospheric and I was pulled into the story. Arguments that state that a treadmill is needed are fallacious bordering on felonious.

And GW2 needs a treadmill. Why does it? The content isn't fun. In The Secret World you have investigations to break up things. In Champions Online you have neat missions like the sky carrier defence, or the Whiteout investigations (where you learn about a race of shapeshifting aliens, and that mission is filled with paranoia, it's great). In Torchlight II you have puzzle rooms in dungeons that you can solve with friends.

Not only that, but they could make the combat more fun. They could speed up movement speed of players and foes inside and outside of combat, they could make it more nippy and fun feeling, they could provide a greater variety of skills (rather than most skills being copy-pasted versions of other skills with different skins), they could have their AI be tactical (like buffing, healing, and resurrecting friendlies). These are things that games like GW1 and Champions Online already do. It wouldn't be impossible to put these things in GW2.

Let me put an idea in your head right now: Chainsaws. Engineers are desperate right now for a good weapon, and imagine how fun that would be! And how about mobile drones? How about an arachnidrone which you could switch between healing and attack modes? It's something you'd have to defend, but in attack mode it could help defend you. There are so many things you could do with the engineer to make it more fun. And that's what this game lacks - fun.

It doesn't have fun, varied content. It has stale, copy-pasted content. The same goes for combat skills. Now, they could obey the rule of fun and improve the combat and add more variety to the content. They could put in chainsaws and some fun actual puzzles in jumping puzzle areas, maybe riddles and things, you know, to break up the monotony. They could do that, but what are they doing instead? They're adding a treadmill.

The treadmill is the most predatory thing you could add to an MMORPG. Why? It preys on the weak-of-mind and their addictive personalities, it makes someone want to play with the promise of bigger numbers. Opernat conditioning. That's lazy. They know it. I know it. That's the easy answer. So instead of fixing their professions, their combat, and their content, they're just going to opt for addicting people to treadmills instead. Well that's great.

Now, here's the thing. I think Rickter and people like him are beginning to see why there are complaints about this, why it's depressing. And their cognitive dissonance is fading. I'm hoping that soon enough they'll join with complaints like mine so that we can be a unified voice against this nonsense. Is operant conditioning as a form of content okay? Do we really like treadmills? Really? I think it's not okay. Let's tell ArenaNet that, let's tell them not to opt for the lazy answer.

So... you guys go back to picking up trash off the beaches, as monotonous and bloody dull as that is. I'll go and play something that's fun. Again, the rule of fun matters, here. I just want to know whom it was at ArenaNet that thought that picking up trash off a beach equated to fun content. I want to know because I want to slap them, and then I might slap them again because that would be cathartic. All the time I've been talking about how GW2 embraces its ability to be unfun. It shouldn't. It really shouldn't.

Again, I'll note, that GW2 is the only game I know of which manages to have an unfun flamethrower. They could make it fun, but they're adding a treadmill. So no, I don't think that's okay. I'm still hoping that the ArenaNet I once liked is still in there, somewhere, and that they're going to do something about this. But really, people... can we set aside the cognitive dissonance? This isn't a fun game. That's why they're adding a treadmill.

Let's help them figure out why this isn't a fun game, and demand that they at least try to fix that, instead of opting for the easy way out (turning GW2 into WoW).

Besides the engineer specific tangents, this is very well written, concise, and illustrates the issues very well. Thanks for sharing.

[Ravnodaus]

RedStar, on 16 November 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I know you can buy exotics with gold. Because players are willing to sell them. But all the gold in the world couldn't buy you a specific set of stats if no one is selling it. That's what I meant.

And...you don't understand. If you compare Ascended and Exotics, you have to consider Exotics with runes/sigils. If you didn't, the difference is bigger. You can't correctly compare two things if you give a bonus to one and not the other...

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about, and if you are sure, you sure shouldn't be.

I compared Exotics to Ascended. I considered them with equal types, or flavor, comparing apples to apples so to speak. The Ascended apple is just a better apple than the Exotic apple. And a full set of Ascended apples is far better than the equivalent set of Exotic ones.

But your last line... that one I take exception to especially. It is because one set has an additional bonus that we even need to compare the two in the first place. If Ascended gear was identical to exotics we wouldn't have anything to talk about!! Ascended is strictly better, and by comparing how much better it is we use exotics as the baseline.... again... because ascended has a bonus exotics do not.

Whatever point it is you think you have, or think you're making, is wrong. Please go back to whatever basic concepts you have regarding this issue and examine them critically for errors, find the fault, advance in understanding. Profit.

[Thyya]

If you clap your hands for a bad bull fight, guess what you'll get.

More Bad Bull Fights!

[AlixIcebane]

Anet never learns events are still bugged so lets make new content event dependant

[RedStar]

Ravnodaus, on 17 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

But your last line... that one I take exception to especially. It is because one set has an additional bonus that we even need to compare the two in the first place. If Ascended gear was identical to exotics we wouldn't have anything to talk about!! Ascended is strictly better, and by comparing how much better it is we use exotics as the baseline.... again... because ascended has a bonus exotics do not.

Ok for the last time :

Ascended:
Stats + %increase(1)
+Runes/sigils  +%increase(2)
+infusion (couldn't take that one since you didn't really know how important is going to be)

But did you take

-Exotics :
Stats
+runes/sigils

Or

-Exotics :
Stats only

It's easy to forget to take into account the runes/sigils in exotics since they aren't always there at first, but they are always present in Ascended since it's build in. If you still don't understand, then I'm giving up because I don't want to explain something so basic in details.

Edited by RedStar, 17 November 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[pcpsong]

Just hilarious some of the commentary here. Game's been out what 3 months now and the QQ is epic.

Go play something else do us all a favour.

We're a medium pop server, our dungeons are full up on a regular basis with groups running practically 24/7, our WvWvW maps are invariably full at primetime and we punch way way above our weight. It's busy, it's busy because people are playing it and enjoying it.

Sure there are niggles and annoyances but what game doesn't have that? The fractal dungeon is real fun to pick up and play, there's some great mechanics in there, some are really promising for the future.

The grind? what grind. I have bought gems once early on just to see what all the fuss is about, I still have 2400ish gems left from when I first bought them. I have a ton of dyes, enough that I'm content with, I have full exotic that I didn't grind for or at least it didn't feel like grinding to me (played EQ now that was a grind!).

You (the general QQ you) wrap all this up in nice flowery words but it just seems like it's not the game for you, I've read these posts on every MMO since forum warriors began creeping out the woodwork. There's a ton of games out there go play them.

Arenanet have built an awesome game that is F2P once you've bought the box, you don't need to spend one single penny beyond that box and subsequent expansions. Your gaming experience does not change if you don't spend any more money with Arenanet. It's this incessant 'I MUST HAVE THIS NOW' that creates your general opinion that a grind exists, you create the grind not Arenanet. To enjoy this game you just have to play it and all the stuff just happens, you get exotic gear, you get your jewellery, you might even get lucky open a chest and get the cool weapon skin (I got chainsaw was a cool surprise) you wanted etc etc

None of it is hard you just have to play the game not work for it. If you're feeling like it's work step away from the keyboard.

[RedStar]

raspberry jam, on 16 November 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

snip

Huh I don't know which side...
Things I don't enjoy aren't very high in the checklist. For example, EotN Vanquisher took me years to finish because it wasn't always something I enjoyed, so to make it a little more enjoyable I waited for guildies to do it.
The Disneyland analogy, like every analogy, didn't take certain things in account. The first one being that I check around from time to time which thing is the most fun. I won't stay locked in a certain thing, even if they do more and more updates, I will sometime wander around to check something else.
For a couple of weeks I found sPvP to be the most fun thing, but then after a while I created another character and playing an ele was fun. And then I discovered other things and started doing them. But that didn't mean I was only doing one thing at a time.

I can't really be a completionist because my pleasure doesn't lie in filling a checklist. I know my limits. If something on the checklist asks me to do a certain action 10 000 times, I'm not going to do it in a month or two if I don't find it interesting. I'm going to spread it across years.
In then end I will "complete" the game but it might take a long time. But I might not complete every single thing. I didn't complete Treasure Hunter/Wisdom in GW1 because I found those titles to be exceptionally long, and the last thing I was missing to get 50/50 were mini pets because I never cared in getting them and I didn't like to sit around them waiting to buy one...(it was actually someone else who did this for me).

[Duplicated]

Because of this whole issue, this is like the first time in my life where I exit the game and start working on my homework instead.

Seriously, pretty much every aspect of the game right now is less appealing than doing my math and engineering homework. I feel like I have to force myself to relax through games, when I can just study and feel a lot less stress than trying to play the broken game.

[DuskWolf]

Heart Collector, on 17 November 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Yeah, they were honest about the type of game they were making. I got pretty much what I was lead to expect through their own blogs, comments, discussions with fans and my own deductions and common sense, and am enjoying myself greatly in the game. Sorry you don't like the game but it's really not for everyone.

I'm sorry, but... that's just not true. I've nothing against you, personally, because I don't want to be your enemy. But I'm upset at ArenaNet because of how much they've moved away from their original design. I stomached it until I couldn't take it any more. If you're doing that then... take a good look at everything, look at how they're adding tiered gear (and they say they're going to add more). Do you still think it's worth stomaching it?

If you really believe that they didn't lie, then... I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I'm not just going to say that, either. But give me a chance to help you understand why the rest of us feel so betrayed.

"[...] to make a game that defies existing conventions." - Mike O'Briend -- Manifesto.

Does adding a gear treadmill truly 'defy existing conventions?'

"In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

This implies that GW2 isn't like that. The Lost Shores content has you scouring the beach for items to interact with. That reminds me of just about every WoW fetch quest ever. Sure, there may be fun content later in the game, but that still goes against the ethos stated above. Most of the game is every bit as boring as WoW. At the very least, he's being misleading and intellectually dishonest.

"I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.' That's great." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

I go into combat as a warrior in GW2. I stand there. I swing my sword, I swing it again. That's great. But that's not what I want, nor is that what they promised me. Again, he's being misleading, he's suggesting that the combat won't be mostly static (like WoW). And yet, aside from dodging some circles, it's completely static.

"We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

This is a great comment. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that they promised us fun. Instead of fun we get new tiers of gear in a treadmill. They've realised that their game isn't fun, so they're going to use operant conditioning to take advantage of the weak-willed. They're acknowledging the dullness of their game by adding a treadmill, and their own laziness. They could solve this problem with better content and combat as I've described in this and many other threads.

"We want to change the way that people view combat." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

Does dodging the odd ground circle really change the way that we view combat? Combat in GW2 feels markedly like WoW. It's only baby steps away. If all you've ever played is WoW, then you won't notice. But if you've played the super-zippy, fun, and varied combat of Champions Online or the tactically masterful combat of Guild Wars 1, then you'll see. We hoped this meant that they were building upon GW1, rather than making a slight improvement over WoW.

"As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero." - Ree Soesbee -- Manifesto

This implies that we get to feel like a hero. Except that at level 50, Trahearne takes over and we're all essentially demoted to grunts. We get to feel like grunts thanks to how the Trahearne content is handled, we're just dumb muscle most of the time. Is it okay that the last 30 levels of the game are a massive bait & switch? I don't think that it is.

"Everybody around you is doing the same thing you are doing." - Ree Soesbee -- Manifesto

This suggests that they intended to make events so varied that this wouldn't be the case. And yet events revolve around three things: Kill a thing, interact with a thing, or resurrect a thing. And that's it. That's all events are, from level 1 to level 80. It feels sterile, and everyone is doing the same thing, it feels painfully generic.

"You're rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you." - Ree Soesbee -- Manifesto

This implies a sense of permanence. But GW2 doesn't really have that. Save a village and 10-30 minutes later it's in dire straits again. And if no one is doing events, it remains in dire straits. Worse, no one remembers you. This isn't like Champions Online or City of Heroes, where NPCs actually talk about you by name and remember your deeds. So this is blatantly untrue compared to the game delivered.

And these are just some of the quotes from them, a tiny portion. Everything they've said to us is basically a lie in some form or another. So you're either stomaching your bad feelings, or you've not been exposed to any marketing at all, you've not read a single thing they've said. One or the other is true. If the former, like I said, bottling it all up doesn't help you or me. If it's the latter then hopefully I've provided some illumination.

[Heart Collector]

ViM, on 17 November 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

The knights in shining armor are out in full force to defend the great, honest, infallible ArenaNet. How could people love being lied to this much?

Maybe we just like the game and got what we expected to get? No, that would be too logical

[Heart Collector]

DuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but... that's just not true. I've nothing against you, personally, because I don't want to be your enemy. But I'm upset at ArenaNet because of how much they've moved away from their original design. I stomached it until I couldn't take it any more. If you're doing that then... take a good look at everything, look at how they're adding tiered gear (and they say they're going to add more). Do you still think it's worth stomaching it?

If you really believe that they didn't lie, then... I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I'm not just going to say that, either. But give me a chance to help you understand why the rest of us feel so betrayed.

"[...] to make a game that defies existing conventions." - Mike O'Briend -- Manifesto.

Does adding a gear treadmill truly 'defy existing conventions?'

"In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

This implies that GW2 isn't like that. The Lost Shores content has you scouring the beach for items to interact with. That reminds me of just about every WoW fetch quest ever. Sure, there may be fun content later in the game, but that still goes against the ethos stated above. Most of the game is every bit as boring as WoW. At the very least, he's being misleading and intellectually dishonest.

"I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.' That's great." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

I go into combat as a warrior in GW2. I stand there. I swing my sword, I swing it again. That's great. But that's not what I want, nor is that what they promised me. Again, he's being misleading, he's suggesting that the combat won't be mostly static (like WoW). And yet, aside from dodging some circles, it's completely static.

"We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

This is a great comment. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that they promised us fun. Instead of fun we get new tiers of gear in a treadmill. They've realised that their game isn't fun, so they're going to use operant conditioning to take advantage of the weak-willed. They're acknowledging the dullness of their game by adding a treadmill, and their own laziness. They could solve this problem with better content and combat as I've described in this and many other threads.

"We want to change the way that people view combat." - Colin Johanson -- Manifesto

Does dodging the odd ground circle really change the way that we view combat? Combat in GW2 feels markedly like WoW. It's only baby steps away. If all you've ever played is WoW, then you won't notice. But if you've played the super-zippy, fun, and varied combat of Champions Online or the tactically masterful combat of Guild Wars 1, then you'll see. We hoped this meant that they were building upon GW1, rather than making a slight improvement over WoW.

"As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero." - Ree Soesbee -- Manifesto

This implies that we get to feel like a hero. Except that at level 50, Trahearne takes over and we're all essentially demoted to grunts. We get to feel like grunts thanks to how the Trahearne content is handled, we're just dumb muscle most of the time. Is it okay that the last 30 levels of the game are a massive bait & switch? I don't think that it is.

"Everybody around you is doing the same thing you are doing." - Ree Soesbee -- Manifesto

This suggests that they intended to make events so varied that this wouldn't be the case. And yet events revolve around three things: Kill a thing, interact with a thing, or resurrect a thing. And that's it. That's all events are, from level 1 to level 80. It feels sterile, and everyone is doing the same thing, it feels painfully generic.

"You're rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you." - Ree Soesbee -- Manifesto

This implies a sense of permanence. But GW2 doesn't really have that. Save a village and 10-30 minutes later it's in dire straits again. And if no one is doing events, it remains in dire straits. Worse, no one remembers you. This isn't like Champions Online or City of Heroes, where NPCs actually talk about you by name and remember your deeds. So this is blatantly untrue compared to the game delivered.

And these are just some of the quotes from them, a tiny portion. Everything they've said to us is basically a lie in some form or another. So you're either stomaching your bad feelings, or you've not been exposed to any marketing at all, you've not read a single thing they've said. One or the other is true. If the former, like I said, bottling it all up doesn't help you or me. If it's the latter then hopefully I've provided some illumination.

I won't respond to your points because really it will boil down to your opinion vs mine. I don't want to be anyone's enemy either (though these boards are making it kinda hard >_>) but I really don't feel lied to. I guess my expectations turned out to be accurate is all.

That's not to say I think the game is perfect, there are lots of things that can be improved. Combat could have been better, DEs could have changed the world a bit more, you feel like you don't have much of a purpose to what you're doing due to lack of context in the zones (I'd have loved personal story style "world story" quests every other level that go into the history and current tribulations of each zone). I'd have liked a bigger variety in weapon skills (it would be great if we continued to unlock more and chose them like we do our utility stuff). And many other big and small issues. But I still enjoy the game because the core features appeal to me, and I believe that ANet will continue to add to it.

However, this part of your post bugs me a bit: "So you're either stomaching your bad feelings, or you've not been exposed to any marketing at all, you've not read a single thing they've said." It is entirely untrue, every bit of it. I have no bad feelings as I play the game every day and have fun. I read between the lines in their marketing and followed this game for two years prior to release (though I only joined the Guru recently-ish). I've learned that in life you rarely get what you want or expect. As a simple example, just go to a trendy cafe... The photos of items on the menu look nothing like the product you get, they're set up to look much more attractive than they are. They have not lied about the contents of the meal/beverage, and it can be really tasty and satisfying, but it just won't look as nice as it does in the photo.

You won't change my opinion of the game, I won't change yours, it's a given. For all we know I may change my tune a few months down the road and get sick of it. But I'll still consider it a great purchase and remember it fondly (as I do WoW even though its features do not appeal to me at all at this point).

Edited by Heart Collector, 17 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[raspberry jam]

RedStar, on 17 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Huh I don't know which side...
Things I don't enjoy aren't very high in the checklist. For example, EotN Vanquisher took me years to finish because it wasn't always something I enjoyed, so to make it a little more enjoyable I waited for guildies to do it.
The Disneyland analogy, like every analogy, didn't take certain things in account. The first one being that I check around from time to time which thing is the most fun. I won't stay locked in a certain thing, even if they do more and more updates, I will sometime wander around to check something else.
For a couple of weeks I found sPvP to be the most fun thing, but then after a while I created another character and playing an ele was fun. And then I discovered other things and started doing them. But that didn't mean I was only doing one thing at a time.

I can't really be a completionist because my pleasure doesn't lie in filling a checklist. I know my limits. If something on the checklist asks me to do a certain action 10 000 times, I'm not going to do it in a month or two if I don't find it interesting. I'm going to spread it across years.
In then end I will "complete" the game but it might take a long time. But I might not complete every single thing. I didn't complete Treasure Hunter/Wisdom in GW1 because I found those titles to be exceptionally long, and the last thing I was missing to get 50/50 were mini pets because I never cared in getting them and I didn't like to sit around them waiting to buy one...(it was actually someone else who did this for me).

The thing is, a lot of people were done, or almost done, with getting good gear. IMO it should not take as long as it did, but actually people were getting to be done with it so that they had freedom of doing whatever they wanted. And then they move the goalpost. Or, build another attraction as you say. It's horrible, especially that they made people think that they were getting something for keeps so to speak (yes, they still have what they had, but it's not max anymore).

[Grumpdogg]

RE: Gear Treadmill:

You missed that epic quote that goes something like 'you will REQUIRE ascended gear to progress through the harder levels of fractals'.

[Ravnodaus]

RedStar, on 17 November 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Ok for the last time :

Ascended:
Stats + %increase(1)
+Runes/sigils  +%increase(2)
+infusion (couldn't take that one since you didn't really know how important is going to be)

But did you take

-Exotics :
Stats
+runes/sigils

Or

-Exotics :
Stats only

It's easy to forget to take into account the runes/sigils in exotics since they aren't always there at first, but they are always present in Ascended since it's build in. If you still don't understand, then I'm giving up because I don't want to explain something so basic in details.

For the last time, I've accounted for whatever it is you are worried about me not accounting for. When I do math proofs, I account for everything relevant. Otherwise why would I do the maths? It would be meaningless gibberish if I didn't account for all of the variables...

I do know a little sumthin about infusions though, your assertion that I do not is in error.

Example. If you compare an exotic to an ascended... ring. The exotic ring can have an exotic jewel in it. And the ascended ring will "only" have a "fine" infusion... The ascended ring would have 22 stat points more than the exotic one. Rough ball math and multiply that by 14 (number of gear slots) and you'll find ascended set with only fine infusions has about 300 more stats than the exotic set. That isn't even factoring in the extra base weapon damage or base armor for having a higher tier set, which will be noticeable as well.

The difference in power scale between exotic and ascended is roughly equivalent to the difference of rare and exotics... the only caveat, is that only holds true with fine infusions. Masterwork, rare, exotic... ascended quality ifusions will be here soon enough, exaggerating this disparity far, far more.

[Alesthes]

At the end of the day the real point is that ArenaNet created a fantastic game, with lots of artistic and gaming value, with no subscription fee.

While the OP created just an arrogant forum post which displays a series of quotes and then proceeds to spit his anger about them sometimes by bending their meaning, sometimes just by plain false statements and not a single constructive insight.

Everybody can choose with whom they want to side. I know which side I prefer for sure.

[raspberry jam]

Ravnodaus, on 17 November 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

For the last time, I've accounted for whatever it is you are worried about me not accounting for. When I do math proofs, I account for everything relevant. Otherwise why would I do the maths? It would be meaningless gibberish if I didn't account for all of the variables...

I do know a little sumthin about infusions though, your assertion that I do not is in error.

Example. If you compare an exotic to an ascended... ring. The exotic ring can have an exotic jewel in it. And the ascended ring will "only" have a "fine" infusion... The ascended ring would have 22 stat points more than the exotic one. Rough ball math and multiply that by 14 (number of gear slots) and you'll find ascended set with only fine infusions has about 300 more stats than the exotic set. That isn't even factoring in the extra base weapon damage or base armor for having a higher tier set, which will be noticeable as well.

The difference in power scale between exotic and ascended is roughly equivalent to the difference of rare and exotics... the only caveat, is that only holds true with fine infusions. Masterwork, rare, exotic... ascended quality ifusions will be here soon enough, exaggerating this disparity far, far more.

Hmm, I doubt that. The normal/fine scale is used for other things. For example there are no exotic transmutation stones.
I think they're going to give us another gear tier instead. Or they might not, if they go by the current fan feedback...

Alesthes, on 17 November 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

At the end of the day the real point is that ArenaNet created a fantastic game, with lots of artistic and gaming value, with no subscription fee.

While the OP created just an arrogant forum post which displays a series of quotes and then proceeds to spit his anger about them sometimes by bending their meaning, sometimes just by plain false statements and not a single constructive insight.

Everybody can choose with whom they want to side. I know which side I prefer for sure.

There are a lot of fantastic products out there and some of them are not what the people who made them said that they would be and that still means that those people are liars. Besides, the opening post has zero false statements and makes some of the most crucial and constructive critique ever formulated about this game.

Basically, you are wrong, and merely the fact that you want to take a "side" shows that. The rest of us, see, wants to make GW2 better. We see the potential of the game, and want it to grow into what it could be. You on the other hand, just want to throw out anyone who doesn't think the same as you. Stop that, instead realize that people do have problems with GW2 and that there are many things to straighten out before the game can be called anything close to having "lots of gaming value".

[Ravnodaus]

raspberry jam, on 17 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Hmm, I doubt that. The normal/fine scale is used for other things. For example there are no exotic transmutation stones.
I think they're going to give us another gear tier instead. Or they might not, if they go by the current fan feedback...

I'm pretty comfortable saying they want to implement higher quality infusions, as that is what they said they wanted to do. I may be wrong, especially with it coming from Anet... I'm not sure they know what they're planning to do well enough to tell us.

[Corvindi]

On the official forum a poster has estimated that the cost of the mats to make the backpack is between 60-100 gold, depending on whether the current droprate nerf stands.

Because of the time it takes to earn that much gold plus the ability of players to buy gold with real money, I now declare Guild Wars 2 firmly in Pay to Win territory.

Another promise broken.  But I knew it would go this way as soon as gems for gold was introduced.  I would like to take a moment here to say one very bratty thing:

I told you so!