553 replies to this topic

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 21 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Again I have yet to see a single thing in the game that goes against what we were PROMISED (promised is the keyword here).
The fact that it is currently EASIER to get dyes seems to avoid being noticed by people shouting about dye changes.
They never said no grind. They said no required grind. Big difference.

Following your argument they may as well have released pacman, because they didn't promise anything.

And also you're implicitely say we shouldn't trust anything ANet (or any) people say unless they say "I promise".
That's not how the world works. At least not the one I live in, perhaps everything you say is meaningless unless you say "I promise"?

Edited by Arquenya, 22 November 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[DuskWolf]

@lordkrall

Intellectual dishonesty is something you may want to familiarise yourself with, as you do it a lot.

Your view is that we should never blame anyone but ourselves for false advertising because the advertiser didn't say 'I promise.' So if someone is selling a game with Battlefield 3 on the cover, but you actually receive Battlefield 1942 in the box, you should blame yourself because the person who sold it to you didn't say 'I promise?'

The game that was delivered wasn't the one that was advertised. Believing that they need to say 'I promise' borders on the utterly ridiculous, possibly even the clinnically insane. One can make promises like their manifesto, which doesn't explicitly require the words 'I promise.' Their manifesto was a promise in and of itself. It was an advertisement of the product as it should have been.

To be honest, I'm hoping someone will actually bring a case against ArenaNet for false advertising, just to make a point.

[Feminist Terrorist]

bcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

*1. “The game will be released when it’s done”. Yet at release date several of the things that were promised and were sometimes even indicated as being ‘top priority’, weren’t “done” (and several of those still aren’t available):*

• account security measures (these were only implemented after launch, when the damage was already done)
• measures against botting (still being implemented)
• no guesting (still not available)… which is becoming more and more of a concern now that world transfers are limited to once a week:
• no rollback functionality for accounts (still not available)


*9. No crafting of throwaway items.* As it is, the tradingpost is a joke. Some higher level items are in huge


And finally, a few more of my concerns:
• The rates on the trading post and the currency exchange (gems) are ridiculous (15%/36%). Have a look at the rates on auction sites like ebay, as they are much more reasonable.

• Inflation on gem prices is ridiculous. On release date you could buy 100 gems for around 25 silver. Right now you’ll need closer to 90 silver for those same 100 gems. And still very few people actually consider it worthwhile to pay real money for gems to transfer them to gold.

so who want to level up their crafting skills are forced to make a fair amount of throwaway items.

These are the big concerns for me. The game was not done when it was released. The bullet points for item 1 seem like pretty basic things to have in a game, especially when some of them were heavily requested in GW1. I thought Anet would have learned from that game, and made it a point to fold these features into the game from the start. I see it as a big failing on their part.

Item 9 was culled from the OP, so I have no idea what the rest of it was supposed to say. However, I'm always crafting throwaway items. I'd say 90% of what I craft is either vendored or salvaged. Very little can be sold with any expectation of making a small profit or breaking even.

I completely agree that the gem prices are out of control. I had been engaging in "dollar cost averaging" with in-game gold well before the Halloween events were announced, but then the prices started shooting up, and I stopped buying. It's simply not worth my gold to do so. If I had real money to buy gems, I still wouldn't, as it's not cost effective.

[Hector]

Draycon, on 18 November 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

You depress me by thinking that waving your e-peen around is helpful, moaning for the sake of it is not helpful and complaining here isn't helpful in the slightest? Do you seriously think anyone from the Dev team really come to this site  to see what people are saying? No, they don't, so get off my back, and I've not heard of anyone using the pay to win method on this game because there is NO point!

You depress me because you chose to not answer or read his post but to give us a post that is a paragraph long non sequitur.

[Own Age Myname]

People are still responding to Lordkrall? The fact that he said I know nothing about GW1 because apparently you need Lightbringer to beat DoA should show everyone his level of intelligence and ability to have a coherent debate with.

Fact is ANet did lie, and they did add new gear, if you want to accept that: FINE, but don't call me a whiner/hater. I only complain about what I care deeply for..

Edited by Own Age Myname, 22 November 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[Shroomhead Fred]

Lordkrall, on 21 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Again I have yet to see a single thing in the game that goes against what we were PROMISED (promised is the keyword here).

Wow...  That's some crazy logic Lordkrall.

Apparently it's okay to flat out lie as long as you don't promise anything?  For all you care they could've told us in the manifesto we all get free pizza and beer if we buy the game, then when we ask for said pizza and beer?  "Oh sorry guys, no promises!"

Your post clearly shows you will turn a blind eye to anything ANet do and defend the game til you're the only one left playing it.  Of course most of us who frequent this forum enough knew that already.

[Gremlin]

I do tend to cut anet some slack when it comes to the gw games because I believe they want the game to succeed as much as I do but they have problems.
They have a deadline to finish the game by and they have us to contend with,whatever they plan for changes all the time as players do things faster, not at all or in a different way.

You make plans set up the game and release it, shortly thereafter it starts to unravel because what you thought was going to happen didn't.
So you patch and correct and take the flak.

I think it was released before all they wanted to add to the game was working but that is a common problem.
The company paying for the development has their own agenda and eventually if you cannot make something work by launch you have to go with what you have.
Sure its annoying and if anet had an infinite amount of money they could hold off releasing the game till it was 100% finished.
Of course that would be some time next year and they would have to keep updating the engine so it didn't seem dated.

Given a choice between GW2 releasing 2nd quarter 2013 fully working and what we have now I take the second option.

Edited by Gremlin, 23 November 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[DuskWolf]

Own Age Myname, on 22 November 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

I only complain about what I care deeply for..

Good on you, really.

Being passionate about something, either for or against, is one of the few joys we have in life. And people have become so apathetic these days, they'll just roll over and take whatever hell is doled out to them. I was passionate about GW2, too, but I don't really know how I feel, now. Is there any point to even trying to convince them?

But no, you're not a hater/whiner, anyone with sense knows that. You're passionate about something that could have been. Amazing potential that was so callously and hatefully squandered. If I had the choice to choose between someone who was passionate, and an obsequious yes-man who'd agree with everything, even if it impacted them and their quality of life negatively, then I'd choose the passionate person.

Keep on being passionate, guy. I think I've just given up by this point, but maybe ArenaNet will listen to one of you. Or they might once they see the population of their game rapidly dwindling.

[Own Age Myname]

DuskWolf, on 23 November 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Good on you, really.

Being passionate about something, either for or against, is one of the few joys we have in life. And people have become so apathetic these days, they'll just roll over and take whatever hell is doled out to them. I was passionate about GW2, too, but I don't really know how I feel, now. Is there any point to even trying to convince them?

But no, you're not a hater/whiner, anyone with sense knows that. You're passionate about something that could have been. Amazing potential that was so callously and hatefully squandered. If I had the choice to choose between someone who was passionate, and an obsequious yes-man who'd agree with everything, even if it impacted them and their quality of life negatively, then I'd choose the passionate person.

Keep on being passionate, guy. I think I've just given up by this point, but maybe ArenaNet will listen to one of you. Or they might once they see the population of their game rapidly dwindling.

Exactly man, like the old saying goes in sports "The day your coach stops yelling at you to get better is the day he stops caring".

[Craywulf]

bcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm actually gonna pick it up again when WvW gets some progression. This isn't about hate this about holding a company we are paying for a service accountable.

You paid for a product, not a service. They are providing the service for free.

[Thyya]

Craywulf, on 23 November 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

You paid for a product, not a service. They are providing the service for free.

Are you being serious right now? So if Anet permanently shut down their servers today, you'd be fine with it? They didn't promise to serve you every month right? I can't believe I'm replying to this...

[Lordkrall]

Shroomhead Fred, on 23 November 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Wow...  That's some crazy logic Lordkrall.

Apparently it's okay to flat out lie as long as you don't promise anything?  For all you care they could've told us in the manifesto we all get free pizza and beer if we buy the game, then when we ask for said pizza and beer?  "Oh sorry guys, no promises!"

Your post clearly shows you will turn a blind eye to anything ANet do and defend the game til you're the only one left playing it.  Of course most of us who frequent this forum enough knew that already.

No, I am simply stating that we where not promised anything in response to all the people shouting about broken promises.

I am not saying I am 100% comfortable with this turn, but shouting about how they broke promises and lied are simply bullshit.

[Resolve]

Lordkrall, on 23 November 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

No, I am simply stating that we where not promised anything in response to all the people shouting about broken promises.

I am not saying I am 100% comfortable with this turn, but shouting about how they broke promises and lied are simply bullshit.

Did you follow the game before it was released? It's pretty clear to....most....people that Anet have blatantly went back on key aspects of the game

You can go on all you want about how they never technically promised us or whatever but the end result is the same: Anet changed from their original vision of the game, and the game we brought.

[Lordkrall]

Resolve, on 23 November 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Did you follow the game before it was released? It's pretty clear to....most....people that Anet have blatantly went back on key aspects of the game

You can go on all you want about how they never technically promised us or whatever but the end result is the same: Anet changed from their original vision of the game, and the game we brought.

I have followed the game since it was announced in 2007.

And I know that things they said back then might not be true now. We all need to keep in mind however that a vision and a manifesto does not mean it is set in stone.

I have no doubts that ArenaNet actually wanted to and believed in everything they said in the Manifesto. But times change. Management change and sadly ArenaNet can't do much about it, seeing as their parent company makes sure they can still stay alive.

I simply accept the fact that things will change. If I feel something is completely unacceptable I would simply leave the game and these forums. But as of now such things have not happened. They might if they keep adding higher and higher tiers of gear over the coming year or so. But until then I am still happy with the game and will keep playing.

What I however don't like is people using words that are completely wrong.
We were not promised anything, therefore they have not broken any promises.
They have most likely not even lied.

[Desild]

I've been checking this thread since the very begining, and I've been considering everything you guys have said. From which I derived some conclusions, and even more questions. Some of you gave out pretty good points, others not so much, and there were some that made point of just refuting or dismissing our concerns for whatever undisclosed reason. As for me, I'll stick to my guns and say that Arenanet has turned into Blizzard.

I want to be objective here, but what I want to ask is, what exactly is wrong with the game?

It's too grindy you would say. Well, so was Guild Wars 1. Thousands of hours burned to trivial things like points, sweets, ectos, drinks, gemstones and minipets that thousands were compelled to collect for an arbitary reward for a future game. The Hall of Monuments thing could be considered a fiasco if you took into account the reasoning why you point out some other things as "grind". The grinding is still very present. but maybe we got savvier, and developed a resistance to it, who knows. Why was it okay in GW1 but not in GW2?

It's too hard? Maybe too easy? Well, any game can be broken with time, from Pac-man to Demon's Souls. Doesn't mean it has gotten easier, only that you mastered it. I find it hillarious in hindsight how people keep clamouring for harder and harder content but never quite recieve it, or percieve it as such because they are just that damn good at the game. Then it creates a edge between them and the lesser players who can never caught up with the "hardcore", who become insatiable for their fix of challenge and thrill.

Gear threadmill is bad. Gear threadmill is good. Oh boy, I've seen this rat chasing his tail countless times. I'm a psychologist so I should know how Skinner boxes work and how to tell one from another. Thing is, that people often forget, Skinner boxes work both ways: for pleasure and for pain.

Right now, the mice that are complaining have realised that when they press the lever, the treat they recieve is not big or tasty enough. So they complain. On the other hand, the mice that get a relief from the electric shock that is tazzing their feet are completely content at hammering their lever, and as long as they aren't experiencing pain, they won't ever complain. At all.

ArenaNet lied? Yes. And they falled into the fallacies of every company that ever produced an MMO since the history of ever. Whoever didn't saw that coming, I salute you for your incredulence. I myself did want to believe ArenaNet was different, and now I'm picking up the pieces of my shattered ego.

Quite honestly, I left WoW because I wanted to get rid of these mentalities, but it seemed I switched over the demonic Blizzard for the slightly sadistic Arenanet, and now I am back to square one. Maybe I should quit MMOs altogether, but alas, I'm a happy mouse right now, pressing my lever at a content rate. Pain or no pain. Small or big treat.

Edited by Desild, 23 November 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[FiachSidhe]

Lordkrall, on 23 November 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

No, I am simply stating that we where not promised anything in response to all the people shouting about broken promises.

I am not saying I am 100% comfortable with this turn, but shouting about how they broke promises and lied are simply bullshit.

No, you're saying they aren't promises, because Anet didn't shout "WE PROMISE" after they hyped features, and philosophies, that sold their game. Only a five year old uses logic like that.
"Nuh uh, I didn't say I promise!"
Seriously, only children lack that kind of world experience, or savvy of parlance.

Edited by FiachSidhe, 24 November 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Asudementio]

Thyya, on 23 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Are you being serious right now? So if Anet permanently shut down their servers today, you'd be fine with it? They didn't promise to serve you every month right? I can't believe I'm replying to this...

Well i agree with the idea that we paid for the game itself, and that we are not entitled to eternal means to play it so Anet is at their liberty to shut the servers down when they wish; though doing so would be the end of them.

[Own Age Myname]

Asudementio, on 23 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Well i agree with the idea that we paid for the game itself, and that we are not entitled to eternal means to play it so Anet is at their liberty to shut the servers down when they wish; though doing so would be the end of them.

So we should take it in the bum when we dont like ideas because we shouldn't be entitled?

[AiponGkooja]

raspberry jam, on 22 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

That's all nice, but actually that's not what I said, nor can it be derived from my posts. In other words no, it doesn't seem like that (well, maybe it does, to people with semantic ophthalmia).
http://yourlogicalfa...is.com/strawman

raspberry jam, on 19 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

It makes a huge difference. If they balance it around exotics, the content will be too easy.

And if they balance it around ascendeds, they make such gear necessary.

You think that the player of a game is the only one caught in a gear treadmill? Nope. It's a trap that catches both players and devs. They have to make new content balanced for ascended gear.

Your link is ironic.

You can try to derail the topic all you want, but the fact remains that it is irrational to use your argument in this situation, because your conclusion would be true no matter what happens, even if this situation did not occur.  In other words, you are unhappy with the balance no matter what happens.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't actually CARE that you're determined to be unhappy; I just don't want anyone to mistake what you are saying to be a reasonable argument, because it's not.

Cheers.

[Asudementio]

Own Age Myname, on 23 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

So we should take it in the bum when we dont like ideas because we shouldn't be entitled?

No? If someone screws you don't support them anymore. So say Anet shut down the servers and said deal with it, then you shouldn't be an advocate of their products or purchase them anymore.

[Obscure One]

Arena Net has tragically failed to deliver upon their design concept on nearly every level, that goes without question. They sold me on the idea of what Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be; they hooked me on the ideal that an MMO could be better...

"In most games you go out and you have really fun tasks occasionally that you get to do and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, hey I swung it again, that's great...We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that, no one finds that fun."

- Colin Johanson, Guild Wars 2: Manifesto Trailer

So logically if A=B, and B=C, then A=C, which means:

• Grind = Not Fun
  
• Guild Wars 2 = Grind
  
• Guild Wars 2 = Not Fun

Essentially I was lied to, and in turn I lied to others to get them into the game with me, believing whole heatedly in the design philosophy Arena Net was presenting. Now I have been made a fool of for preaching Guild Wars 2 like it was going to change the industry of the MMO for the ages to come. Reminds me of a time when I was much younger and bought a car from a used car lot and it ended up breaking down on the highway literally on the drive home...there was no lemon law in the state so I got hosed and naturally looked like an idiot for trusting a used car salesman. Arena Net has sold me that lemon all over again, and again I'm a foolish consumer that was lulled into trusting someone who's sole intent was to make a sale, and not to make me happy.

Will I stop playing Guild Wars 2 because of this? Probably Not
Will I ever buy anything from Arena Net again? Probably Not

I will play Guild Wars 2 until such time as my character progression requires that I pay an additional sum to remain competitive with other players, which will likely be the first expansion. An expansion which I assume will raise the level cap, add another tier of gear, and perhaps even shift the game balance in some manner as to force players to relearn the very classes they've already become accustomed to...you know, business as usual in the MMO genre.

Congratulations Arena Net, you have sealed the deal for me in the MMO genre. I made an agreement with myself that if Guild Wars 2 failed to deliver, it would be the last MMO I touch, because now I'm just another dude doing that boring grind for gear like everyone else.

"As a structure the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero."

-Ree Soesbee, Guild Wars 2: Manifesto Trailer

[AiponGkooja]

Obscure One, on 24 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Arena Net has tragically failed to deliver upon their design concept on nearly every level, that goes without question. They sold me on the idea of what Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be; they hooked me on the ideal that an MMO could be better...

"In most games you go out and you have really fun tasks occasionally that you get to do and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, hey I swung it again, that's great...We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that, no one finds that fun."

- Colin Johanson, Guild Wars 2: Manifesto Trailer

So logically if A=B, and B=C, then A=C, which means:

• Grind = Not Fun
  
• Guild Wars 2 = Grind
  
• Guild Wars 2 = Not Fun

Essentially I was lied to, and in turn I lied to others to get them into the game with me, believing whole heatedly in the design philosophy Arena Net was presenting. Now I have been made a fool of for preaching Guild Wars 2 like it was going to change the industry of the MMO for the ages to come. Reminds me of a time when I was much younger and bought a car from a used car lot and it ended up breaking down on the highway literally on the drive home...there was no lemon law in the state so I got hosed and naturally looked like an idiot for trusting a used car salesman. Arena Net has sold me that lemon all over again, and again I'm a foolish consumer that was lulled into trusting someone who's sole intent was to make a sale, and not to make me happy.

Will I stop playing Guild Wars 2 because of this? Probably Not
Will I ever buy anything from Arena Net again? Probably Not

I will play Guild Wars 2 until such time as my character progression requires that I pay an additional sum to remain competitive with other players, which will likely be the first expansion. An expansion which I assume will raise the level cap, add another tier of gear, and perhaps even shift the game balance in some manner as to force players to relearn the very classes they've already become accustomed to...you know, business as usual in the MMO genre.

Congratulations Arena Net, you have sealed the deal for me in the MMO genre. I made an agreement with myself that if Guild Wars 2 failed to deliver, it would be the last MMO I touch, because now I'm just another dude doing that boring grind for gear like everyone else.

"As a structure the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero."

-Ree Soesbee, Guild Wars 2: Manifesto Trailer

Can I ask a very sincere question?  Why ARE you going to continue playing?

[Maconi]

I'm in the same boat. I anxiously waited GW2 for years and was horrified to find myself bored/not logging in after a few weeks. I honestly believed everything they fed us pre-launch and thought this would be the next step in the MMORPG evolution. What we received was a half-polished game that feels about as rewarding as any Asian grinder (maybe even less so somehow).

Honestly Blizzard's Titan project is my last hope for MMORPGs. If they apply all the shit they've learned over the years with WoW/D3, take note of the advances their competitors have made (such as the active combat systems in GW2/Tera), and don't give in to their greed (I'm looking @ you Activision/D3 RMAH), project Titan may turn into an amazing MMORPG.

If it doesn't, then that's it for the genre in the west (IMO).

Edited by Maconi, 24 November 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[shanaeri rynale]

The reality is, is that it doesn't matter if Anet lied or not. It's the growing perception that they did that matters. The erosion of trust is a serious matter for any business (you might not feel it today, but eventually it'll getcha). This is why the AMA on. Monday is so critical. If done well it'll calm people down. If questions are avoided, spun or answered in a vague way then it'll just pour gasoline on things.

[Obscure One]

AiponGkooja, on 24 November 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Can I ask a very sincere question?  Why ARE you going to continue playing?

A few reasons actually, the main one being simply getting my money's worth; practicality. The second is that Arena Net only failed on nearly every level and not on ALL levels. There are redeeming qualities to the game I find entertaining, and the biggest of those would be WvW. Three faction warfare is something I haven't been able to enjoy since DAoC, and GW2 actually pulls it off very well...that is until my Exotics become a more apparent handicap behind the Ascended and Legendary gear wearing enemies that'll be steadily increasing in numbers over time. The final reason I'll continue playing is because of my friends in-game. If Arena Net knows how to do anything well, it is how to foster a games community.

Suffice it to say, I'll likely be on GW2 until around February 26th, 2013 (projected launch date of Bioshock Inifinte), and unless some SERIOUS redesigns occur before that date (or shortly after), I scarcely see myself returning.

[AiponGkooja]

Obscure One, on 24 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

A few reasons actually, the main one being simply getting my money's worth; practicality. The second is that Arena Net only failed on nearly every level and not on ALL levels. There are redeeming qualities to the game I find entertaining, and the biggest of those would be WvW. Three faction warfare is something I haven't been able to enjoy since DAoC, and GW2 actually pulls it off very well...that is until my Exotics become a more apparent handicap behind the Ascended and Legendary gear wearing enemies that'll be steadily increasing in numbers over time. The final reason I'll continue playing is because of my friends in-game. If Arena Net knows how to do anything well, it is how to foster a games community.

Suffice it to say, I'll likely be on GW2 until around February 26th, 2013 (projected launch date of Bioshock Inifinte), and unless some SERIOUS redesigns occur before that date (or shortly after), I scarcely see myself returning.

What do you mean by getting your money's worth? Obviously no sub fee avoids the "is it worth my money to play for another month" problem.  The money you already spent is a sunk cost, and unless you're are actually getting value from playing the game, it wouldn't make sense to keep playing it just because you spent money on it (strictly economic analysis putting at least some scarcity and value to your free time).  Surely there are other games that you could play whose developers have failed less.  You only have so much time; wouldn't you get more value out of a game you enjoyed more?

So the concrete reasons are that you really like WvW and playing with your friends.  And even though they failed on "nearly everything," with just one part of the game, it is still good enough that you prefer it over any others - enough that you see yourself playing for another 3 months anyway (at no extra cost to you).  That somehow strikes me as more of a "success" than a "fail," but you are free to disagree.

Is that accurate?

[P4ndora]

Obscure One, on 24 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Suffice it to say, I'll likely be on GW2 until around February 26th, 2013 (projected launch date of Bioshock Inifinte), and unless some SERIOUS redesigns occur before that date (or shortly after), I scarcely see myself returning.

Well since there are no sub fees you can come back anytime you want, who knows, maybe in 1 or 2 years things will get much better.


But I'm in the same boat as many other people. I play less and less nowadays as I don't know which direction the game'll go. If it continues like this, it's not worth the time to play it as it's totally the opposite why I've bought the game. They add pretty shitty/useless stuff like this ascended gear or one-time events that left out a lot of people from a chance of getting precursors (lol?), while the game lack of much important things. To name a few: guild halls, better loot (instead of worse -.-), guesting, new PvP modes like dueling (even the worst korean mmo has dueling....), Death Match or CTF type pvp, LFG tool and of course all the skill/trait bugs. I feel like anet wasted a lot of work and time in adding stupid things, if they worked at least ONE of the things I mentioned instead, the game would be better and also less people would whine.

For me the AMA will be crucial. If they'll answer honestly I'll try to forget everything about this Lost Shores event, and let the next big content patch (probably Wintersday) decide if they can live up to what they say and if I want to continue playing or not. If they'll avoid questions, then I see no reason to play, at least not until the first expansion or until most things I mentioned above are added.

Edited by P4ndora, 24 November 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Obscure One]

AiponGkooja, on 24 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

What do you mean by getting your money's worth? Obviously no sub fee avoids the "is it worth my money to play for another month" problem.  The money you already spent is a sunk cost, and unless you're are actually getting value from playing the game, it wouldn't make sense to keep playing it just because you spent money on it (strictly economic analysis putting at least some scarcity and value to your free time).  Surely there are other games that you could play whose developers have failed less.  You only have so much time; wouldn't you get more value out of a game you enjoyed more?

So the concrete reasons are that you really like WvW and playing with your friends.  And even though they failed on "nearly everything," with just one part of the game, it is still good enough that you prefer it over any others - enough that you see yourself playing for another 3 months anyway (at no extra cost to you).  That somehow strikes me as more of a "success" than a "fail," but you are free to disagree.

Is that accurate?

Not quite...you seem to be jumping to a broad conclusion and insinuating my intent without precedent.

Everything, especially an entertainment product has a certain amount of a value ratio to it involved. For instance I could go to see a movie for $8 and be entertained for 90-120 min., or I could go ride around on a Go-Kart track for $5 for 5 min. One is a better value than the other, and I apply this same concept to my games. Hence the amount of time I can be genuinely entertained by GW2 should mirror the amount I spent relative to other similar purchases (especially since I sprung for the CE...the statue is awesome regardless of game design flaws...). In that light, if I play GW2 roughly another 50 hours, I'll brake even on the deal when compared to other MMO's I've paid for (including sub fees) relative to the entertainment value, but if I can still have fun with it beyond that, I will. Notably, I did quit for about a two week stent where I just went back to playing around with Skyrim mods (a game that I need not keep track of how much entertainment value I've gotten out of), neglecting GW2 entirely. Hell I even recall playing ME3 a bit (another game I love to hate) before finally getting back to GW2 due to friends wanting me in WvW with them.

Now as far as success or failure is concerned, it is far to early to know. The MMO genre is the most volatile and unforgiving of all genres I can think of. One day the game is being heralded as "The WoW Slayer", the next every zone is deserted and your game is going F2P (just ask the SWTOR fans). Time will tell if GW2 was a success or a flop, and insinuating any of the statements I made were a claim to either is objectionable.

[AiponGkooja]

Obscure One, on 24 November 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Not quite...you seem to be jumping to a broad conclusion and insinuating my intent without precedent.

Everything, especially an entertainment product has a certain amount of a value ratio to it involved. For instance I could go to see a movie for $8 and be entertained for 90-120 min., or I could go ride around on a Go-Kart track for $5 for 5 min. One is a better value than the other, and I apply this same concept to my games. Hence the amount of time I can be genuinely entertained by GW2 should mirror the amount I spent relative to other similar purchases (especially since I sprung for the CE...the statue is awesome regardless of game design flaws...). In that light, if I play GW2 roughly another 50 hours, I'll brake even on the deal when compared to other MMO's I've paid for (including sub fees) relative to the entertainment value, but if I can still have fun with it beyond that, I will. Notably, I did quit for about a two week stent where I just went back to playing around with Skyrim mods (a game that I need not keep track of how much entertainment value I've gotten out of), neglecting GW2 entirely. Hell I even recall playing ME3 a bit (another game I love to hate) before finally getting back to GW2 due to friends wanting me in WvW with them.

Now as far as success or failure is concerned, it is far to early to know. The MMO genre is the most volatile and unforgiving of all genres I can think of. One day the game is being heralded as "The WoW Slayer", the next every zone is deserted and your game is going F2P (just ask the SWTOR fans). Time will tell if GW2 was a success or a flop, and insinuating any of the statements I made were a claim to either is objectionable.

You used a lot of words to explain that you don't know the meaning of "sunk cost" and "opportunity cost."  Despite how you feel, you are not obligated to play the game just because you spent money on it.  If you could get more value out of doing something else, that would be a better use of your time.  Every moment you spend playing a game that is not entertaining to you is actually COSTING you more value because you are missing out on something else that would be more worth your time.

While you can say that the entertainment should mirror the value of other games, it can easily be the case that you just made a bad purchase and should move on.  If the game is really that bad, it makes no sense to keep playing it.  That is pretty basic reasoning.  So the fact remains that you either enjoy the game much more than you want to admit, you have absolutely nothing better to do, or you are making an irrational decision to keep playing it.

Now you are right that I have to make one glaring assumption for this reasoning to be accurate.  I assume you play games for the entertainment value they provide.  If that is a mistaken assumption, then I deeply apologize.

P.S.  Just to clarify, is the Skyrim parenthetical just because you have already "gotten your value" out of it?  Or are you not keeping track for some other reason?  Just curious.

[Edit]: Oh, and for the success/failure I was simply pointing out that even with them, according to you, failing at nearly everything, there is still a part of the game that appeals enough to you to continue playing it for 3 more months.  So while they may please some people with the new changes, and displease others, there are still parts of the game that individual people like enough to ignore the parts that they don't like.  And the game is designed in such a way that those people can just play the parts they truly enjoy.  That in itself doesn't seem like a complete failure.  It seems more like a broad spectrum success. (So far... )

Edited by AiponGkooja, 24 November 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Feminist Terrorist]

shanaeri rynale, on 24 November 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

The reality is, is that it doesn't matter if Anet lied or not. It's the growing perception that they did that matters. The erosion of trust is a serious matter for any business (you might not feel it today, but eventually it'll getcha). This is why the AMA on. Monday is so critical. If done well it'll calm people down. If questions are avoided, spun or answered in a vague way then it'll just pour gasoline on things.

I've been playing GW since 2005. I've seen Anet evolve over the years. They started with earnest answers and sincere attempts to fix problems, devolving to vague answers, double speak, and evasion with GW1. They seemed to start over with GW2, and gave some sincere answers, and seemed to want to fix problems, but that has very quickly devolved to vagueness, evasion, and going back on some of the things they said just a few months ago. It's a sad state of affairs.