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Forget about Ascended gear, Has Anet been honest about anything?


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#61 Darkobra

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:11 PM

View Postshanaeri rynale, on 15 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

They were honest about one of the most important things, No monthly fees. :)

It doesn't give them the grounds to go against what was advertised. The reason we bought the game. The reason they have our money period. "Lie about everything else! But as long as I only paid once, it doesn't matter if I'm driven from the game!" And instead of answering these claims, they shut them down.

But yeah, you're right. No monthly fees! Only game that does that! Woooo!

#62 RandolfRa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

Character based dyes is really a non-issue. Most dyes sell for less than 1 silver anyway. Do you really need that ugly but expensive Abyssal dye for all your characters? Who would even use that "color" if it wasn't expensive?

Edited by RandolfRa, 15 November 2012 - 04:17 PM.


#63 astromarmot

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 15 November 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

It doesn't give them the grounds to go against what was advertised. The reason we bought the game. The reason they have our money period. "Lie about everything else! But as long as I only paid once, it doesn't matter if I'm driven from the game!" And instead of answering these claims, they shut them down.

But yeah, you're right. No monthly fees! Only game that does that! Woooo!

I understand that they were fairly responsive to those who requested refunds...

#64 Arquenya

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostVexies, on 15 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Realistic people saw a list of IDEAS, guidelines and goals that they wanted to see realized.  They are not always practical. They are not always possible under the constrains of a realistic deadline or technical limitations and most importantly in the end they might not be economically feasible or work as intended once implemented.
The thing is that a lot of features and mechanics were already working and successful in other games like GW, were even the basis of their success and high ratings, definitely what I'd call "practical".
So I wonder: why replace that with something mediocre?

#65 Kratimas

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostDraugadan, on 15 November 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Typical fanboy reply. The game didn't even come close to delivering what it promised, yet you have the nerve to tell people who talk about it to just leave the game.

Yes, this isn't the game for us. This is also not the game that ArenaNet promised to create these past years. That was the game for us.  This is a game for people with more money than time, hence the grinding meant to encourage gem purchases. This isn't the game we were promised because NcSoft thought they could capitalize on the hype.

If you're fine with that, good for you. But don't tell others to simply quit the game, if they're not.

First they never in any article I have ever read from them used the words "We Promise" except they promised to create a fun game, and that promise has been kept. When the game was in development they said many many times "this is what we want are going to do ...." guess what things change. Sometimes people have to change things that sound like a good idea on paper but, then don't quite work that way when put into play.

So, yes if something changes, in the game I have no problem with it.

I am able to adapt and move on.

I play a game to escape reality and stress of real life for a little while. If something changes in a game that no longer makes the game fun for me then I move on.

So, yes if a game really stresses you out this much or you are not having fun then MOVE ON.

It really isn't that big of a deal.

I know there are bugs in the game, what do I do, I report it and move on. I don't get all OMGZZZZ!!!!1111!!!!1 this game is so SUCKZORRRR I am ready to quite, ANet promised me everything and they changed something now I am mad about it.

Most of the things listed in the OP is just small things that will get fixed, its just the kids these days have no patients at all. Maybe it is because I am older and look at things a little different then others.

Security is of course an important thing, but I have played many MMO in my life (including text based mud, giving away my age now :P lol) and have never had an account stolen or had any security issues ever. So there may be something rotten in the state of Denmark other then a security flaw from the game maker. Not saying it is never their fault but ......

Anyway to each his own I guess.

So, either play and enjoy the game for what it is and what it is going to be or don't.

It really really is that simple.

#66 RandolfRa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

Quote

Eric Flannum
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.
Almost a bit sad they have actually said that. To me it was obvious from day one that the "economy" of gw2 would be like it is now. That is, absurd garbage where materials cost more than the finished product. It simply doesn't have correct design. Not at all.

Edited by RandolfRa, 15 November 2012 - 04:27 PM.


#67 tangoesp

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

moneyyyhhh..... soooo greeennnn.... soooo "money".

WE WANT MOARH MONEY!.

Humans are easily corruptable and big enterprise are the peak of the term of "corruptable" nothing new here.

But I had to admit that I was innocent and really thought that anet can hold more of their promises.

#68 Vexies

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

Quote

The thing is that a lot of features and mechanics were already working and successful in other games like GW, were even the basis of their success and high ratings, definitely what I'd call "practical".
So I wonder: why replace that with something mediocre?

I fully admit that I never played GW1.  At the time I was happily playing another game and it just didnt hook me enough to pull me away so I dont have the emotional attachment to GW1 nor am I familiar with the systems previously in place to have as a point of reference.  To be perfectly honest I never even followed the game until a couple of months before its release.  I did tons of research, I watched the pie in the sky videos, I saw a developer that seemed passionate about there game so I bought it to test it for myself.

None of the we believe in this or that crap swayed me.  IN the end I knew it for what it was PR fluff.  What made me buy in and love the game was the game, period.  In the end its the FIRST game that was and is so damn good that I actually sat back and said Hmm here I have been paying this sub fee in various games for YEARS.  This game is so good.. why am i doing that again?  So I stopped and now I play this.  ITS STILL THAT GOOD.  I get tons of FREE content that is on par or better than any other MMO game that I have played and I have played most of them that have come and gone.

So a system changed, so something didnt pan out.  Big deal.

What I still have is a developer that busts its ass to build a great game.  I have a developer that despite accusations of the contrary actually does try to do something about bots, actually polices its forums, has given me two content updates in two months and its freaking FREE.

beyond this, I could give a shit less. in the end GW2 is a fantastic product for 60 bucks period, end of story.

Edited by Vexies, 15 November 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#69 Draugadan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

View PostKratimas, on 15 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

I know there are bugs in the game, what do I do, I report it and move on. I don't get all OMGZZZZ!!!!1111!!!!1 this game is so SUCKZORRRR I am ready to quite, ANet promised me everything and they changed something now I am mad about it.

They changed something? Are you serious? They changed pretty much all the points they've sold their game on. Add a trinity and some raids and the game's practically WoW 2.0 in Tyria.

#70 RedStar

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

3. No dedicated healers, every profession was supposed to be equally viable in all roles, and every profession would be equally welcome in a party.

Yet (for example) the guardian (with most of its stills being support/healing based) is so close to a healer that he is always welcome in a party, 90% of his skills are support oriented, whereas a thief or ranger (with much less support options) are often refused from parties and are much harder to spec for support (with far less options). In short: ArenaNet’s implementation of professions failed to make them all truely equal.

Wow you have really met some awful players out there...We take whoever comes when doing a dungeon, as long as they are at least at the correct level for the dungeon. We might that more time if that player has a lower level, but we won't die because of it...If we die it's because we messed up.
Guardians are nice, but not needed...But glass cannons are annoying as hell...Yeah you do more damage but you keep dying and the team keeps ressurecting you, thus in the end, the whole team does less damage. (Some glass cannons are good enough to not die as much, but generally most of them are annoying).

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

*4. No need for “LFG” for hours to get into a group.* Yet the cities and the lower level zones are filled with people just looking for a group who wants them so that they can play through a dungeon in explorable mode. This is actually a follow-up to the previous point… if all professions would be equally effective at all roles, then nobody would have a reason to refuse people from their party because they are a ranger and not a guardian.

*6. No grinding dungeons for tokens. Earlier on in the development, PC Gamer spoke to Eric Flannum, and he confirmed:*
Now imagine if you only had to do a dungeon once how bad it would be...

View Postbcbully1, on 15 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

*7. No gear treadmill...* yet after we reached max stat gear (exotics), ArenaNet first introduced Legendary weapons, now Ascended armor, and in the future Legendary armor… all with better stats. The rare gear (legendaries) was supposed to differ only in skin, not in stats:
Lengengary items do not differ in stats...Did you even check this ? Or you purposely leaving out stuff to confuse those that didn't check that ?
Legendary items have the same level of stats as the best items currently available. It's quite normal that they will "level" since Ascended is now the best level...

Anet lied about a lot of things. But they kept their word on some of them...even though if sometime they say things like "well were weren't exactly clear about what we exactly meant, so we didn't lie ;) "...

#71 Resolve

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostKratimas, on 15 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Yay another one of these threads in even a bigger wall of text.

Look if you hate the game this much then go play something else.

This game just isn't for you, no biggie.

It really is that simple!

That's a pretty poor argument. A lot of people with complaints don't hate the game, quite the opposite in fact. Anytime someone posts something negative about the game they get jumped on by rabid posters. Stop getting so upset that someone has a complaint.

People on this forum really need to learn how to handle criticism. You can make a thread about an aspect or feature you dislike and still like the overall game. Anet have made some very controversial decisions and no doubt we will see more so you should get used to these types of threads.

#72 Krisa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

yet another QQ post about lame stuff..

Look bottom line is yes Anet said they would have xyz in the game at launch. Apparently the stuff wasn't ready. So rather then put stuff in the game that doesnt work they choice to hold off. Rather then delay the game anymore. No matter what if Anet had everything in the game at launch ppl will still hate and flame Anet for something.

NO game is 100% perfect at launch. Im sure they were working on getting authenitcators up and running prior to all the damage that had been done by the hackers but if you use easy to guess passwords , downloading hax , and doing other stuff taht gets your account info flagged by hackers then imo its your own damn fault. Stop looking up P0rn! lol..

Guesting haha what a joke. If you wanna go play with your friends then TRANSFER to their damn server. I mean seriously if you haven't settled down on a server 2 months in then you have issues. If its oh I want to be able to play with my friends. have them come to your server.
Fact is even with this 1 week on server xfers it has F'd up WvW to basicly make "power house" servers , while maybe the PvE people that use guesting to run stuff with friends didn't abuse this , fact is whole guilds of 100's of ppl have jumped to server to server to server leaving the orignal server they joined shafted in the WvW scene.

It's a Free 2 Play game. enjoy the game for what it is. Rather then flame Anet for not being perfect , be happy.

i'm glad they adding new content i feel its a little over due but still step in the right direction.

Bottom line is if you don't like a Free 2 play game that isn't prefect , then leave , delete your toons , and go back to WoW. This is how i feel and my opinion.

#73 Draugadan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostRedStar, on 15 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

"well were weren't exactly clear about what we exactly meant, so we didn't lie ;) "...

Well, I don't know about you but, for me, it doesn't get any clearer than "We don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2".

View PostKrisa, on 15 November 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Bottom line is if you don't like a Free 2 play game that isn't prefect , then leave , delete your toons , and go back to WoW. This is how i feel and my opinion.

If you buy a new car that turns out to be the exact opposite of what it was marketed as, just burn it and go back to your old car.

#74 Zhahz

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:42 PM

Excellent OP and pretty sad at the same time.

It's interesting that so many people think ANet can do no wrong (almost the blizzard cult phenominom) and it's kind of disgusting that the official forums act like GW2 is gaming utopia and surpress almost all negative commentary or feedback.

I'm currently banned from the official forums due to the accumulation of lots of topics on bots, what I consider broken game mechanics and bad design (being able to gather in combat, aggro behavior whereby people can train mobs on to other players, usually because they're gathering without fighting mobs, and ability to log out during combat), player econ being horrid, and because I'm irritated about gear tiering being added.

It's exceptionally lame that ANet so often surpresses (moves, deletes, bans) discussion of the game unless it's posts saying how awesome ANet/game are.  As I've said before, it's little wonder the official forums are dead compared to the official boards for other games (they're not dead but when the first page of the general forum barely seems to move, they're hardly that active either).

There are some brutal quotes vs reality in the OP.

It bothers me that I bought in on all of ANets BS and thought they were a different kind of company but ultimately they're totally full of it and didn't deliver on their big talk.

Also sick of feeling steered towards gem store (holiday event, dye drop rate being obliterated) and generally sick of F2P (been trying a bunch of different F2P games lately) since I don't like having any restrictions or nonstop cash choices while playing games - I just wanna play, and I'm starting to think I'd rather just pay a sub and let devs focus on adding GOOD stuff instead of trying to come up with ways to get money out of good stuff (ANet/GW2 is probably the best F2P model I've experienced but just saying overall, the F2P stuff is usually hokey and lame).

The bit on crafting made me almost laugh except it's too sad to laugh about.  I have all 8 crafts at 400 and the vast bulk of what you make is for skilling only - you either vendor it or break it for mats (if desperate since it's rarely worth it).  Even most good stuff isn't worth making since cost of mats is more expensive than dropped items of similar quality or gathering mats is a grind.  You *can* save money (as good as profiting) *if* you have mats or don't mind some grind.

The whole grind thing is a big point of contention too since almost everything you do for "work towards" type goals in "end game" is a massive grind fest.  You may do dungeons for fun (we do) but if you want anything reward-wise out of dungeons then you grind since there is a limit to how many times one can repeat anything (that isn't sex or something like that) and have it still be fun.

Most of what people are doing in Orr is just grind.  They do the same events over and over, pick events optimized for max loot gain for minimal effort.  Every day it's the same thing out there.  That's good gameplay?  Really?  You log on because you want to do that event 20 times to get 2g?

The big on gem rates changing was to be expected, IMO.  It's all player driven and basic supply and demand and you had to know the exchange would increase.  The holiday event put it into overdrive since people went nuts with keys and it looks like it's going to stay at the inflated rates because far fewer people are buying gems for cash now than they were early on.  Anet doesn't set the rate - it's determined by how many gems have been bought for cash and put into the system.  Even with as utterly lame as the economy is in the game, enough people have gold to the point of being able to buy gems for in-game gold rather than spending cash, and that drives the price of gems up.

Edited by Leyana, 15 November 2012 - 11:22 PM.
No


#75 Louis8k8

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:42 PM

I was also aware of these things and they simply severely ruin A-net's reputation.

Current attitude is: I paid for this shit, I still got things to do in-game, might as well make the best of what I paid for.

My disappointment isn't as strong as some, but those that came with high expectations for the game, I can sympathize with their disappointment.

GW2 itself is okay for an mmorpg. The company's reputation however is abysmal in my opinion.

Edited by Louis8k8, 15 November 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#76 Vexies

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

Quote

If you buy a new car that turns out to be the exact opposite of what it was marketed as, just burn it and go back to your old car.

The point is.. the game IS what it is. You may not like it and your entitled.  Your choice is to accept what is or get packing.  Beyond that  it doesnt matter.

Edited by Vexies, 15 November 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#77 Levistis

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

OK, people who sooo freaking unhappy, just leave. Please don't log on, go to Lions Arch and spread the word about how bad GW2. If you don't like it, then go. Some people are actually having fun playing the game.

All this rage and butt hurt over something not even implemented yet...just wow.

-----a happy gw2 player.

Edited by Levistis, 15 November 2012 - 04:51 PM.


#78 RedStar

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostDraugadan, on 15 November 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Well, I don't know about you but, for me, it doesn't get any clearer than "We don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2".

Really ? You chose the one thing no one can agree one because it's all based on subjectivity ?
Except the extremes, no one ever agreed how much grind was too much grind.

Hell, no one even have the same definition of grind...Most discussions on it are horrible because everyone is talking about something different :
-Grind is the repetition of something
-Don't forget that it's not fun
-But what's fun ?
-Grind is the repetition of something in order to progress
-But do you really need that to progress ?
-Killing the same monster twice is grinding !!!!!!!!!!

That's how virtually every discussion on grind can be summed up...

It's quite easy for Anet to get out of that one.


View PostLouis8k8, on 15 November 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

I was also aware of these things and they simply severely ruin A-net's reputation.

What kind of reputation did Anet had ? All I can say is that they are a nice friendly bunch. And a business.

View PostZhahz, on 15 November 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Also sick of feeling steered towards gem store (holiday event, dye drop rate being obliterated)
Oh yes, because dyes are really expensive right ? Unless you want those 5 dyes that are above one gold, I don't see why you would buy gems to buy dyes...might as well sell those gems and use that cash to buy them.

Edited by RedStar, 15 November 2012 - 04:55 PM.


#79 Hyper Hypno Hustler

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:51 PM

View PostRedStar, on 15 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Now imagine if you only had to do a dungeon once how bad it would be...

Well, Anet would have been forced to come up with ways to make dungeons fun and compelling based on the merit of well designed content alone to ensure the game had longevity, and that would be terrible.

Honestly, it would at least be easier to get your friends and guildmates to do a dungeon 6 times instead of 20 times.

#80 Draugadan

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostRedStar, on 15 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Really ? You chose the one thing no one can agree one because it's all based on subjectivity ?
Except the extremes, no one ever agreed how much grind was too much grind.

Hell, no one even have the same definition of grind...Most discussions on it are horrible because everyone is talking about something different :
-Grind is the repetition of something
-Don't forget that it's not fun
-But what's fun ?
-Grind is the repetition of something in order to progress
-But do you really need that to progress ?
-Killing the same monster twice is grinding !!!!!!!!!!

That's how virtually every discussion on grind can be summed up...

It's quite easy for Anet to get out of that one.

Well then, let's just agree on the fact that WoW isn't that grindy either. In fact it's less grindy then Guild Wars 2. Why? Because 5 times as many people find the activities there more fun than in Guild Wars 2.

So, using your logic, how again is ArenaNet's game better than Blizzard's?

Edited by Draugadan, 15 November 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#81 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostArdeni, on 15 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

... What is there to be discussed anyways? ...Also, the funny thing about these threads is how they only pick the annoying changes and forget the good ones ...Ps. You could have said that by "friend" I mean a bussiness partner, an upcoming employer who declines a job interview or something like that, but you chose the word whore. I wonder what that tells about you?
    

Why the need to participate in a discussion if you don't think the subject is discussion-worthy?
Why would we praise them for doing things right, when we can throw money at them?

P.S: The term "whore" was chosen intentionally. It gets the people going.


Having said that, I absolutely think the topic is worthy of a discussion, so I'll leave people to it instead of muddying the waters even more.

#82 RedStar

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostHyper Hypno Hustler, on 15 November 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Well, Anet would have been forced to come up with ways to make dungeons fun and compelling based on the merit of well designed content alone to ensure the game had longevity, and that would be terrible.

Honestly, it would at least be easier to get your friends and guildmates to do a dungeon 6 times instead of 20 times.

Yeah right, because the random player is happy to do something you find fun and get nothing useful for him out of it right ?
Because what you find fun, everyone finds it fun, right ?

Fun is horribly vague concept that one can agree on.

I'm doing dungeons with my guild even thought I don't need to do them because I'm having fun. Not because of the dungeons, because I'm talking to them while doing it.
PvP is a different subject.

View PostDraugadan, on 15 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Well then, let's just agree on the fact that WoW isn't that grindy either. In fact it's less grindy then Guild Wars 2. Why? Because 5 times as many people find the activities there more fun than in Guild Wars 2.

So, using your logic, how again is ArenaNet's game better than Blizzard's?

How the hell did you came up with that response ? I just said that no one can agree on what grind is and you say "let's agree on the fact that WoW isn't grindy" ...
And what kind of logic did I use ? That each one has a different point of view on vague concepts like grind and fun ? And you expect me to tell you which game is the best ?

Personally I prefer GW2 over WoW. I don't feel the need to write about why. It's a personal choice, and unless I write a hundred page book on it, I won't explain it enough to prevent you from coming up with some kind of argument against my personal choice...
If you find WoW better, good for you, I guess. I don't care, play what you want, but don't try to pass subjective preferences as facts.
If you think that WoW is less grindy, fine. I don't even know your definition of grind (nor do I care), so I won't even try to pick out arguments because my definitions is probably different, and I'm sure that we are going to have to include "fun" in that talk.
So really talking about vague concepts using even more vague concept is something I find utterly pointless. Except of course on extremes we can almost generally agree on.

#83 Arquenya

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

View Posttypographie, on 15 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Whether it "didn't even come close" is certainly a matter for debate, but if you can name even one MMO that has actually achieved everything perfectly at launch, why aren't you playing it? Other people should not even be put into the position of having to suggest to you what is apparently in your own best interest, let alone to be called names for it.
There's nothing wrong with releasing a fairly buggy game that needs to be balanced and poished. Nothing new here, I actually think GW2 does a (relatively) decent job at that.

There is however something wrong with releasing a game - and then doing things that directly oppose a lot of very important things you've said in the previous 5 years about how the game would be .

Edited by Arquenya, 15 November 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#84 Arquenya

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostRedStar, on 15 November 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'm doing dungeons with my guild even thought I don't need to do them because I'm having fun. Not because of the dungeons, because I'm talking to them while doing it.
Well if talking with guildies is what makes it fun - that's game independent.

#85 RedStar

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:17 PM

View PostArquenya, on 15 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well if talking with guildies is what makes it fun - that's game independent.

Kind of. It's game dependent because it's the different situations that arise in dungeons that are sometime the center of our talks. There has been hundreds of situations in dungeons where we burst out laughing.
Because one of us got pulled by Kohler while the others didn't, because a NPC got knockdown in horribly funny way. Because one of us over aggroed everything without realizing it. Because we found that if you are not at the correct level, your aggro bubble is bigger. None of this may seem funny to you, maybe because it isn't. But it's all a matter of context. Maybe if we played WoW we would have other things to laugh about.
But we aren't playing WoW. We are playing GW2 and I don't see why we are going to waste cash on playing an other game to possibly have fun when we are already having fun in this one.

#86 typographie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:17 PM

View PostArquenya, on 15 November 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong with releasing a fairly buggy game that needs to be balanced and poished. Nothing new here, I actually think GW2 does a (relatively) decent job at that.

There is however something wrong with releasing a game - and then doing things that directly oppose a lot of very important things you've said in the previous 5 years about how the game would be .

I was not talking about bugs. I do not personally find it alarming that Anet has not implemented certain things si far, or has had to make changes based on how things have actually worked out.

I want to avoid typing out a point-for-point refutation of everything in the OP, but the vast majority of those things are either nit-picky things, completely subject to the way the OP wants to spin it or features not-yet-implemented with no sign that they have been axed.

Edited by typographie, 15 November 2012 - 05:18 PM.


#87 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

I agree with most of what the OP says. The biggest disappointing factor has been the lack of tactics involved. There is very little in this game that makes you think. GW2 seems alot like Ursan but with zergs. I am bored with events in Orr that involve me having to use a GS in order to hit something to get a drop before the creature dies. I dont really care if dyes are not account wide really, that is minor. I don't even really care about gear treadmills all that much. But when I saw pre release videos of combos involving more than one class I was excited. Tell me when anyone actually attempts to do cross class combos on purpose? It just sorta happens in the zerg.

I like GW2 art style and the graphics are nice(when properly modded). The personal story is very lack luster and I can't really think of a worse end game boss fight ever. I don't think that anyone argues that point.

There is rarely anyone in my guild(which is pretty big) online at all now. Farming Orr can only take so much of your patience before you get super bored.

Lets hope fractals gives us all something to do.

Edited by Baldur The Bold, 15 November 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#88 Specialz

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:20 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 15 November 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

That's intellectual dishonesty. There's a difference between 'slightly different from the original design' and 'the complete antithesis of the product as it was marketed.' Guild Wars 2 is the latter. If they'd matched some of what they'd marketed, more people would be happy. But that they couldn't even come through on a single promise and developed the opposite thing that they said they would? Well...

It's like being advertised a shiny new porsche, and actually being sold a jalopy VW beetle. We're our own worst enemy when we don't stand up and actually say that companies shouldn't be allowed to do that. We just bend over and take it.
Except for the hyperbole as someone pointed out. Guild wars 2 is pretty close to what they say it would be, the implementation isn't exactly the way they made it sound, but it was close enough for me to see why their claim. The benefit for an MMO is that, it can only get better.

Just like others have said, you had 3 or 4 betas over a few months to decide whether the game met your expectations and if after playing it you were not enjoying it, why did you expect the final product would be any different? Rarely, has any game ever been significantly different between the beta and release and the added benefit being that Arenanet actually told you they game doesn't change much between 25 and 80. When I played the beta, I felt good enough to not cancel my pre purchase (and even if I couldn't it just 60 bucks it wasnt a big deal, which is also why i did not buy a deluxe or collector).  Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result each time.

Finally, pre-release you had a lot of detractors saying how a lot of guild wars 2 fans believe guild wars 2 is god's gift to the world or how some of they believe it will cure cancer. Looking at post like yours and the other disillusioned former fans, they were right.

Edited by Specialz, 15 November 2012 - 05:22 PM.


#89 Manzana

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 15 November 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

It really has been a colossal disappointment.

I was hoping for a game which was a natural evolution of Champions Online. I'm looking for fun, kinetic gameplay which allows and requires people to zip around and be mobile, I was hoping for character building which is similar to CO and Guild Wars 1, where you could truly build your character. I was hoping for fun.

Valid points, although utterly and completely subjective.  You wanted an evolution of Champions Online, that's fine, but who led you to believe that this game was going to be like CO?

On that count? They failed. The engineer isn't anything like what I would have hoped. It's an incredibly dull class. The design of it is just so timid, it's like they were soiling themselves over the thought of a small-minded minority screamig but this isn't fantasy. How you can make a flamethrower unfun is beyond me. And then you have chainsaws. Why do the engineers not have them as a melee option? The engineer could have been a melee class in steampunk, heavy armour, with a chainsaw and a good (crowd control-oriented) flamethrower as their primary weapon. They could have been backed up by robots with different roles.

And they could have had laser beams!  And guardians could ride ponies!  And, and, and, thieves could have been Aquaman underwater!  All of my friends who have played the engineer utterly enjoyed it.  Yes, sometimes you have to fight the mechanics just to get what you want, and sometimes you get carpel-tunnel because holy-cow-I-can't-throw-grenades-any-faster, but hey, fun is subjective.  Just because you wanted a steampunk warrior doesn't mean they should have one.  You want a melee weapon?  Use a kit.  Where would a chainsaw come in?  What other class can use a chainsaw without completely breaking immersion? If you wanted to say "Hey, they could have a chainsaw kit!" Well then, that is productive, that is a great idea, that is a constructive remark that can make the game better!"  Again, you base your arguments on what you want, and state them as fact.

We could have had a flamethrower that did things like casting an 'I AM ON FIRE!!!' debuff on foes, which would make them run around screaming, flailing, as if they were actually on fire until one of their companions actually used water or healing on them to deal with it. Or until the debuff timed out on its own. But none of this is there. The flamethrower is just a condition damage device that barely hits, and this touches upon another issue.

There is being realistic, and then there's being realistic in context of a game.  Why doesn't cripple last forever?  How come longbows don't make you bleed?  How the hell does a warrior shoot two arrows sequentially in one draw?  It is a game.  If you have a splendid idea for how you can make the game realistic and balanced, please, by all means, suggest ideas.  That is another way to be productive instead of purely negative and opinionated.  As for flamethrower, what did you expect aside from point-and-shoot? What can possibly be done other than aim it in a general direction and home for the best?

Mobs are dumb. In Guild Wars 1, you're used to smart mobs. It's a glorious sight. Melee mobs will body block you to keep you away from ranged and support mobs. There will be some mobs which are good at healing (like the Guardian), who would help with buffing, healing, and resurrecting downed foes in GW1. But GW2 doesn't have this. The combat is an endless zerg. The foe runs at you, and it's a sterile trading of blows back and forth.

There isn't a transitive property of gameplay.  You can't have warriors play as if they were snipers in GW2.  Likewise, you can't design gameplay that is aimed at a core group of eight players when the world is open, not instanced.  You can make a mob as intelligent as possible, but in an open persistent world, it's impossible to upscale that system for more or less people.  There was no such thing as "soloing" in GW1: you at the very least left town with henchmen.  Soloing is a very real scenario in an open world MMORPG.  You can't just extrapolate one system and place it in the other.  In GW1, mobs didn't intelligently attack.  You had melee mobs that just rushed you, and monks that would use Infuse Health and nearly kill themselves despite being focused by the player party.  This is what comes with being an MMO instead of an instanced multiplayer. I agree that the combat is an endless zerg, and that makes things really dull at times.  However, harking to the days of GW1 isn't the right solution.

In CO, when a foe is about to die, they make a mad dash for a group of allied foes to try and draw you into another fight. In GW2 foes continue to kamikaze-rush you until they die. What this means is that the game is all about the numbers of you versus the numbers of your foe. You swing, they swing. This goes against the more skill-based game that they promised us, and now there's a new tier of items, meaning things are even more number based.

Show me the wonderful list of ground-targeted skill shots that CO has.  Show me how mobs telegraph their moves, so you have to play active defense, and not thank-god-I-had-more-health.  Show me the cross profession combos that work to extreme effect in a coordinated group.  Show me how in CO, you blocked and dodged, rather than facetanked.  Show me how in CO, you didn't just have a healer keep the tank's red-bar up as he generated threat.  Hell, you even chose what role you wanted to be in CO, a role that gave boosts to tanking or DPSing, while throttling every other stat.  If you want to talk about skill, show us the whole picture, not just "the mob aggros more mobs!  Fun and dynamic gameplay!"

They promised us grandiose cities, they didn't deliver. The cities are tiny when you compare them with truly impressive cities in MMOs. Look at how Champions Online or Everquest II does a city and you'll be impressed. They really have an incredible sense of scale, there's even content in the cities. We were promised that, too, and they didn't deliver. Do you know what else we were promised? Content in the home instances for all races. They didn't deliver on that, either.

I liked the part where CO had vistas and jump challenges to keep you entertained in cities, all while having persistent voiceovers to try to generate a sense of immersion.  Oh, wait.  Just because something is big doesn't mean it's better.  I was utterly blown away when I entered Divinity's Reach the first time.  I was blown away when I entered the Black Citadel. Yes, the Sylvari home city is a mess and much smaller than the other cities, but Anet was going for the aesthetics of a tree.  Do I wish there was more to do in a city?  Yes.  Have I ever played a beer brawl yet?  Nope.  Why haven't I had the opportunity to do so, especially when Anet promised me greater attractions in cities?  That is a great point and something Anet should address.  However, stating your opinion that grandiose cities does not deliver is not the right way to do it. Besides being utterly and completely subjective yet again, your "arguments" do not bring up solutions.

So most of the time we spend our time out in the field dealing with zerging mobs in copy-pasted dynamic events. This is a game that could have used another two or three years in the pot, to be honest, because most of it is terrible. But it gets worse. They took out body blocking, thus removing one of a mob's most tactical abilities, same for the player. Being able to physically block a foe (for you or the mob) is a handy tactical maneuver, and that's just not there.

Agreed, I don't know why this is the case.  See?  This is a productive argument, not just an opinion.

We were promised a companion, because that would be fun. Someone we could take around with us on content to add to the tactical feel of the game. But apparently this would have made things too easy due to the kamikaze, zerging mobs. So what do they do? They take out the companion, they don't deliver on that, eiither. They promise us account-wide dyes, and they backpedal on that and make it per character instead.

Yeah, I hated when they released the game, and I suddenly realized that there were no companions.  THE NERVE.  Oh, wait, that was announced at least a year before release.  Hum.  If that was such a deal breaker for you, you should have lost interest a year before the game even came out, saving you all of this trouble and grief.  The change in dyes was a logistical change.  They also promised a giant dye system filled with numerous colors, with armor that had different dyeable regions.  THEY LIE-.  Oh wait, never mind.

They promise us a lack of grind, but the game was grind-heavy in beta 1. And every option that seemed to alleviate the grind was 'rebalanced.' People were even banned for taking advantage of low-priced armour, just because ArenaNet clearly wants you to grind. This sounded alarm bells in my head, and this was one of the things that made me sit back and really look at this game and how much it fails to deliver on every front.

People were banned because they bought the low price armor, chucked it into the forge, and was thus able to sell the new non-soulbound armor for great profits.  They weren't even permanently banned.  This is called bug exploitation.  People who thought they were just getting a great deal were not banned or even reprimanded; Anet admitted it was their fault.  Anet's philosophy for removing grind was for you to be able to choose the reward you wanted, to not be at the mercy of a RNG.  Well, look, you get tokens which you trade for the piece you want!  Promise maintained!  Even you must admit that if every time you ran through a dungeon you got the loot you want, there would be next to no replayability.  Grind to a degree is necessary in any type of game.  When you sit back and look for the negative, of course you're only going to find negative things.

They promised us 'our story,' and our story starts off with us working with Destiny's Edge. Instead we get bait & switched with this Trahearne sylvari who's Universally hated (look for the threads here, on the official forums, on just about every forum, or anywhere on the Internet, and I'm sure you already hate him yourself). Instead of taking orders from our racial Destiny's Edge coordinator, we had him.

I agree.  I hated, absolutely hated how they did this in Nightfall.  Trahearne is even worse than that.  I feel like an observer in "my story".  I killed the dragon, Trahearne gets the credit.  I saved the city, Trahearne gets a press conference.  This is an utterly valid point, and I'm sure that community feedback regarding this will help shape Anet's decision in future story choices.

And we had him hogging the limelight and attending every mission he shouldn't have. He came with us when he should have been back at base, planning. And then, on the final fight, where his presence as backup might have been helpful? He was completely absent! Now imagine the inverse of this, Destiny's Edge - they stay out of your way and simply give you information to act on. But at the end, in the final fight, they're there to provide backup against Zhaitan. Wouldn't that be amazing?

So they completely failed to deliver on content in the post 50 zones. Then you have the potential of the races. The charr could have had chainsaws, and jetpacks. They could have had races involving their cars as a city activity. They could have used helicopters to get around their large city (if it was large), they could have had a city that looked like the concept art. Instead, it was tame, and quite frankly crap. They completely failed to capitalise on their potential, and in the end, the charr feel like a cheap dollar store knock-off of what they could have been.

Opinion, and see above.  Game balance, stuff...

Then you have the asura. The asura are stuck with asthetics stolen from games like Phantasy Star Online and Star Ocean 2, they could have had a brilliant uniqueness to them, as they did in Guild Wars 1. But instead they just became the clumsy gnomes of GW2, along with the sparkly, colourful technology that accompanies gnomes. Between GW1 and GW2, apparently the asura became gnomes. Look at their animations, I need say no more.

Sure, if you say the animations are stolen, I haven't got the evidence to say otherwise.  Did the animations come out badly?  You wanted GW1 Asura, that's not what we got.  Point taken, but this isn't an argument.

I could go on, but in general I just feel that they failed to deliver on the artistic front, too. As someone who knows a lot about various forms of forest and jungle life, like even the myriad kinds of mushrooms and such you can find in the real world, I was utterly disappointed by the Disneyland copy-pasta going on, instead of having truly exotic and strange looking plants, they went for this one-dimensional, flat thing that was just so creatively bankrupt that I found it genuinely galling and unsettling.

Oh yes, let me just animate the 375,000 species of beetle we currently know of on Earth to create a more realistic environment for Tyria.  What did you expect, the most detailed painting harking back to the days of the Renaissance?  The art style is wonderful to me.  Again, just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean Anet was being "Creatively bankrupt".  Saying that you were galled and unsettled by this is just absurd.  This.  Is.  A.  Game.

Oh, and what about armour? It was clearly designed for humans, but then they got lazy. The clipping on the sylvari, asura, and charr is atrocious. We were promised armour that would look good on our races, but instead they decided to go down the cheap route, because we're easy money, we're not going to care, right? Except that I do. That there's so much clipping on every armour piece for charr, sylvari, and asura really bothers me. This laziness is endemic of the game. The game in some areas of its aesthetics just feels completely phoned in.

Agreed, clipping is a huge problem.  I hope that Anet can address this with patches in the future.

So yes, I think they failed to deliver on aesthetics, too.

And they failed to deliver on fun gameplay. They could have had the gameplay be fast and vicious, versus intelligent mobs (which I have touched on a little), they could have had a lot more character options for decent tactics (which I have also touched on a little), and it could have looked more like their profession preview videos. Instead, they slowed it down so much. Combat feels as slow as molasses, it takes forever to get anywhere, and it just puts a hamper on the enjoyment of the game.

I have also touched on this.  Combo fields.  Dodging.  Mostly AoE based game.  Reactive gameplay.  Knowledge of game mechanics.  These are all things that play into what makes GW2 fun and dynamic for me.  Could it have been even better?  Yes.  Does it beat the pants off of cooldown rotation gameplay seen in  games like CO and WoW?  Yup, to me it does.

What Guild Wars 2 failed to deliver on in this regard was flow. In games like GW1 and Champions Online, they dealt with this by providing trash mobs along with tough, tactical mobs. So you'd mop up the trash surrounding the more difficult mobs. And the more difficult mobs would then work together to provide you with a worthy fight, so you go into it with this feeling of building challenge. But GW1 mobs are all trash mobs, except with massive bags of HP, so you just sit around hammering at their massive amounts of HP until they die.

They couldn't make it so that the fights are difficult because they require tactics, instead, mobs have massive amounts of HP. And if their numbers are significantly bigger than yours, they can one-shot you. So it stops being about tactics and it just becomes WoW, where you grind for bigger numbers, so you can take on their numbers. You swing your number-sword, they swing theirs. It's just one sack of HP (you) versus another, with your numbers and their determines who loses what HP on what swing.

GW1 != MMORPG  That design philosophy can't translate directly.  Never were you promised GW1 2.0, and I feel that that is the core problem.  Also, I've been running dungeons with greens.  Does that mean I'm this wonderful player?  No, and that's not what I intend it to mean.  Sure, if I had some better gear, I could be just that much more efficient.  However, all of the exotics in the world can't save you from a burst from Subject Alpha in Crucible of Eternity if you don't know when to dodge or block.  That isn't a numbers game, that is a skill and familiarity game.

The feel of the game just... fails at flow. When you couple this with things like the movement tax (the cost of waypoints), and the mind-meltingly slow movement speed of the characters, it's like they wanted to draw out everything. It's like... it feels like it was meant to be a faster pace game, the game that they promised us. Then they went back on that promise too and slowed the game down to a snail's pace. Look at player movement and tell me you don't feel that that's a thing. That reeks of Nexon's involvement.

So it's just a slow, grindy, shallow, hollow game. Far, far closer to WoW than it was to GW1 or CO. That's how it is, for me. Nothing like what it could have been. I'm still in love with the game it could have been - with the aesthetics, the mechanics, the races. It's just the actual game fails to deliver on all these fronts, and I'd sooner forget it because it's painful for me on that level. I know cognitive dissonance will allow some to delude themselves, but eventually it'll set in and they'll realise what I did.

This isn't the game we were promised. It's the ultimate antithesis of the game we were promised.

When you look at the negatives, it does look that way.  However, you can go through a dungeon with all thieves.  Or all elementalists.  Or all warriors.  Anet promised to first and foremost delineate the holy trinity.  While not completely achieved, they made strides towards this.  They kept in line with the aesthetics of GW1, so that you can instantly tell it was made by the same company with a sense of continuation.  I've talked about how GW2 works to deliver gameplay that is vastly different from other MMO's currently in the market.  So yes, when you only look for the bad, it is the ultimate antithesis.  However, your tunnel visioning also keeps out aspects that Anet did deliver.

And that's what upsets me about the mess that is GW2. It's an exercise in trickery, manipulation, Asian-grinder ideals, an dmost importantly... broken promises. I can't think of one, sole promise they managed to keep. Not one. Every promise that mattered to me is something that was either never true in the first place, or something they've backpedaled on in their efforts to create WoW 2.0. And do we honestly think that this WoW 2.0 is going to fare any better than TOR or WAR? I don't. People will get sick of it and leave.

A design philosophy isn't a promise.  It's a loose set of guidelines that drives the direction for a game.  If the philosophy fits well with an aspect, that's how it's going to be implemented.  If not, then it's time to get creative.  Tell me of how this game plays like WoW, and I'll tell you how it does not.

Those who're openly WoW haters (like me) who're sick of the grind will just leave it out of disgust, out of how much it's ended up like WoW. Those who love WoW will realise that GW2 isd not as good at being WoW as WoW is. So they'll just go back to that. At the end of the day the game is going to see a mass exodus, because it went for the fool's gold. It tried to take a slice from the WoW money-pie. And haven't we learned what idiocy that is?

Horaay opinions!

Haven't we learned, ArenaNet?


I was hoping, hoping it would be more like the less cynical modern games that I enjoy, like Champions Online, like Guild Wars 1. I feel that CO and GW1 do way more to deliver on their promises, their Manifesto, than their own game does! In CO I can see the fast paced combat, the flow, the fun, the lack of grind. In GW1 I can see all of this, too. In GW2 I see the exact opposite. If this could have been the evolution of games like CO and GW1, I would have been the happiest person alive. But as it is? WoW 2.0. I didn't sign up for that. I bought into the idea that this game wouldn't be WoW 2.0.

Oh yes, fast paced combat!  I love how my Gunslinger in CO just spams one move for maximum DPS.  So dynamic!

I bought passionately into that idea. You all know this. And I feel so utterly betrayed.

You read into things that weren't there.  You saw an idea, and took it as a promise.  Not only that, the things you feel betrayed about are based on opinion.  If ANet said there wasn't going to be sub-fees, but there were in the game, that is a broken promise.  If Anet said their game was going to be pretty, but you don't think it is, that isn't a broken promise.  That's a difference in opinion.

And ultimately that's what upsets me about GW2, it's the greatest exercise I know of in broken promises. I don't think I've ever felt so let down by a company or product before. Nothing has even come close to the base betrayal I feel. I know some people will say 'EVERYTHING IS FINE!!!' and that the game hasn't already lost most of its playerbase, but hey, TOR fans said that too, as did WAR fans. Didn't change a thing, did it?

Oh, oh, and everyone said it was ok to appease Hitler!  Look where that got us?!  No, everything is not fine, but not for the reasons you bring up.  I agree with you one-hundred percent on some things, which I mentioned above.  But, most of your post is just opinionated fluff and that isn't the best way to approach what you are talking about here.

And I know that some people will want to call me a liar or make personal attacks, just for speaking the truth. I know that there are people who can't wait to do that. I've seen them in other threads when I've brought these things up. And to be honest? That's kind of pathetic. But tell me that for you this doesn't sense. Tell me that most of this post doesn't ring true for you. Tell me that you haven't suffered these nagging feelings, and that recent choices have just brought them to a head.

Your.  Opinion.  Is.  Not.  The.  Truth.

I'm still in love with the GW2 that could have been, but the GW2 that is? Utter disappointment, feelings of betrayal, and endless broken promises. I can't bring myself to look at it any more. And you'd be surprised at how big of a deal that is. Normally I can overlook a lot, and for a race like the charr? I could overlook a lot more. But this game is just such a heart-rending disappointment that not even the charr can make me login now.

I'm really sad about all this. I'm sad for the GW2 that could have been.

Coulda woulda shoulda, I know. But if there's any hope that the ArenaNet of yore is still out there, and still listening, I need to voice my thoughts. Maybe there's some chance to gather up the scraps of this shambles and pull it together into something resembling the brilliant experience it deserves to be. That's all I want. I want GW2 to be a great game. The sad truth is is that right now it's not. So many broken promises, just as the OP points out. So many.


#90 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:29 PM

@OP

Oh thank you for reminding me for all that "how it`s gonna be" talk Anet gave us, my ears were burning i was so excited. Well now i feel kind of mislead but that`s the marketing, advertisement just a big lie.
And the better the advertisement the less truth is given about product, why they did like they did i don`t know somehow i believe it still can be made right, but as time passes by and "new cool" stuff arrives....




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