438 replies to this topic

[Lordkrall]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

LordKrall, do you even play this game?

Yes, daily since head-start, why?

[BlasBlas]

I'm sorry that a lot of you do not seem to like the changes or direction that Anet is supposedly going.

But I do think it is pre-mature to make an issue out of something not fully released yet.

[Johny Bravo]

Complaining already and it hasn't been released.  Why is there this expectation that as new content is introduced you should be able to get it immediately.   What sort of feeling of achievement or accomplishment is there in having something handed to you.  I play this game because I enjoy it and there is something to push for, i.e. new gear.  There has to be something to bridge the gap between new content upgrades.  I couldn't sympathize with the whiners in GW1 and I don't in GW 2.  Also I think people are starting to confuse grind with playing time.  OMF ANET is ruining the game I have to play for a whole week to get my charater to level 80 what a grind and then to top it off I have to play a lot more to get the best armor.  When I get to level 80 it should just magically appear in my inventory so then I can have everything.

Edited by Johny Bravo, 16 November 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

Many ppl who love the game also believed their was nothing to do, not everyone who thought this way was a "hater".  Also why is it assumed these ppl are "WoW tards" just b/c they like some sort of progression rather than staying stagnant?  I swear people just like to talk about negative things,  Is GW2 going to be anything like WoW? Of course not, but you know the smallest thing will cause ulcers in the GW2 community for no reason at all.

I hate how people are still making assumptions about "hardcore" gamers, which are the minority on these forums.  It makes me sick to think an MMO is split this way over stupid things. I don't even believe it's the game itself...it's just these forums.  It's been the same crap for months "oh you hardcore gamers don't have any fun! all you want is stuff and not to enjoy it"  It's just a group of people who know nothing about it and are just assuming.

If anything will kill this game it will be the dumb discrimination people have against others for no reason other than past negative experiences they assume will happen now. All this crap about how GW2 is gonna have a WoW type community sounds like those dumb people preaching about 2012.... "I seen it man! The worlds gonna end! Let my sell my house."  This fear of other gamers is rather disturbing and from all the MMOs I have played, I have never seen it at this level before.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 16 November 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Resolve]

You guys complaining about complaining are doing it just as much, if not more, than us anti-treadmillers. Something to think about.

[Lucas Ashrock]

The wow tards comparison is mostly not just the gear grind per se. Every mmo has it. And way better improved.
The comparison is when ascended gear is what makes a kid thinks to be a pro way better than a "noob exotic guy" just because of a number, and much more, the wow trash chat "LFM CoF speedrun ascended fullset only, whisp or you're kicked" or the horrible "we need a defensive guardian, and an offensive dps, kick them". A kind of cesspool i never saw on /map, everyone was fine, we all had fun. Guess you lost this part, but soon you will broke your nose with it

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 16 November 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

You guys complaining about complaining are doing it just as much, if not more, than us anti-treadmillers. Something to think about.

Fail circular logic that has no end.  Why not just say "I know u are but what am I?!" which can be responded with the same exact line. Yea yeah ppl complaining about complaining about complaining...not even cute.

Seriously...it's comments like this that annoy me. Why are people so offended so easily and so scared?  It is really silly...

Lucas Ashrock, on 16 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

The wow tards comparison is mostly not just the gear grind per se. Every mmo has it. And way better improved.
The comparison is when ascended gear is what makes a kid thinks to be a pro way better than a "noob exotic guy" just because of a number, and much more, the wow trash chat "LFM CoF speedrun ascended fullset only, whisp or you're kicked" or the horrible "we need a defensive guardian, and an offensive dps, kick them". A kind of cesspool i never saw on /map, everyone was fine, we all had fun. Guess you lost this part, but soon you will broke your nose with it

...and why would that offend you so deeply? Just don't play with those dumb people and stop assuming it's everyone you will encounter. End of story.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 16 November 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Geralt Romalion]

Just my opinion.
First of all, I am glad to see new content to do and new skins to acquire.
But I disapprove of the ascended tier.
I fully understand people want something to work on, but I still believe that should only be for cosmetic purposes.
In GW1, it took me a very long time to get my obsidian and vabbian armors, and stuff like bone dragon staves, etc.
But I happily invested time in working towards them.
Because I wanted them, not because I needed them ( since being in my dumb 1.5k armor would make me just as effective as the guy with obsidian armor next door).

Even while the difference in stats betwee ascendent and exotic is minimal, it is still a difference.
And after some time, people will demand it and boot you out of groups when you do not have ascendent gear.
It will become required to play, especially when ascendent armor and weapons get added later on.

I will still wait to see how everything gets implemented, but I am very sceptical.

[Resolve]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 16 November 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Fail circular logic that has no end.  Why not just say "I know u are but what am I?!" which can be responded with the same exact line. Yea yeah ppl complaining about complaining about complaining...not even cute.

Seriously...it's comments like this that annoy me. Why are people so offended so easily and so scared?  It is really silly...

...And now you're doing more random complaining.

Some of us aren't happy with this change. It's just something you're going to have to accept. I really don't even know why you're so angry that OTHER people aren't happy. Go play the game, Anet don't need you or the other zealots defending their every move.

[Corvindi]

Xodiak, on 16 November 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

I'd rather do dungeons in Rift. Let me ask you this.. let's say you hit 80 (not hard to do with minimal time), and you have the best gear (easy enough to get through so many channels).. and knowing the current dungeons have a terrible ROI (return on "time" invested).. what are you doing in the game? What are you doing if you're Anet to keep people interested? To keep people around and to gain new people?

I'd make this new gear available immediately and with comparable time investment through other means if I were ArenaNet and had enough complaints about nothing to do at 80.

I see this as an attempt to filter players into the same location, this new dungeon hub.  The world is big, instanced, and without the bots, it's pretty empty.  So some bright boy or girl at Anet probably said, 'hey, I know, let's get them all in one place doing something together!'  And someone said, 'forget it, they won't do it, it's like herding cats.  Some are over there gathering, others are in WvW, some are at crafting stations, some are grinding karma, some are grinding mats for legendaries.'  So bright boy says, 'no problem, we'll just offer them better gear they can't get any other way.  Genius!'

And too bad for those of us who don't like standing around spamming lfg and then going and doing the same damn pve content over and over until our eyes bleed.

pswendel, on 16 November 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Another great thing about these posts is how incredibly un-read and un-learned everybody is.

https://forum-en.gui...irst#post721451

1.  Trying to read that font guarantees blindness, therefore no more reading.

2.  You can't offer the gear in some vague future through other means while offering it through one path now and say that fixes the problem.  It doesn't.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

Resolve, on 16 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

...And now you're doing more random complaining.

Some of us aren't happy with this change. It's just something you're going to have to accept. I really don't even know why you're so angry that OTHER people aren't happy. Go play the game, Anet don't need you or the other zealots defending their every move.

I'm not all happy about the changes for the game, but saying someone is complaining about complaining provides absolutely nothing to a convo.  I can't even believe I actually have to explain that to someone -.-...

You completely missed my point. I'm not angry people aren't happy, I'm angry people still like to label each other and assume they know everything about certain gamers.  Just because someone has an irrational fear doesn't make it right, and this is where the GW2 community fails completely.

Yeah, I am totally defending Anet...cuz I never had any problem with them lol. (sarcasm if you didn't catch on)  If you ever read any of my posts you'd know I have a whole lot of issues with this game. This just proves my point even further about assumptions on these forums.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 16 November 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Briar]

Dear Anet,

I do not like your new more powerful gear
I do not want to feel like I have to drudgingly play through your game for the privilage of having fun playing your game
I will run dungeons because it is fun and I feel like it
I will sPvP because it is fun and I feel like it
I will WvW because it is fun and I feel like it
The promise of shinys does not make me want to do somthing, nore does it make it fun
If I wanted to work for shinys I would do it in real life, real life does it better - its called a job

I play a game to play a game

I work to work

Do you get it if I type in short sentences? Because I do not think you do


Sincerely,

Briar

PS. When I am bored I will stop playing, this should be a non issue as you already have my money

Edited by Briar, 16 November 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

And when the first player to get the first one does it one day after it's up, people will say TOO EASY NO FUN NOT A BIG ENOUGH DIFFERENCE IN STATS WHY BOTHER???!!!???

It's like the laundry, it's an infinite cycle.

[Gremlin]

Wordsworth, on 16 November 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

No, I just want the stuff I've already grinded for to be relevant more than three months after the games release.

So would I, but then legendaries are getting a buff to make them better than the ascended items.
Its only the infused bit thats different and thats more for armour than weapons.
I would hope any armour equal to or above ascended would have the infuse option added.

[Burt]

Wordsworth, on 16 November 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

No, I just want the stuff I've already grinded for to be relevant more than three months after the games release.

My Guardian had a full set of exotic weapons/armor not even 30 minutes after hitting 80. There is very little "grind" in getting exotic armor, so don't pretend you invested half your life into acquiring what you have now.

I hate the way WoW's tiered armor is set up, but I don't have any problem with this Ascended stuff, because I trust ArenaNet.

The creator of this thread is the worst kind of game player: the kind that makes assumptions on how their worst case scenario would play out and then wills it into some perverted fact, whether it's true or not.

[The_Tree_Branch]

Krazzar, on 16 November 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

Yeah, no. If people actually did what they said it would be a different situation, but it only takes two seconds to notice people won't even log in unless there is some item for them to get and some reason to get it.  Actions speak louder than words and all those characters farming in the cursed shore send a clear message. This doesn't change the fact the addition of a new tier doesn't make you change your activity at all. If you don't want it don't get it, you can still operate in every single zone with no issues. Not only that but dungeons also have additional loot options and additional loot now, so original dungeons are also more rewarding. The infusions are literally horizontal progression, if you don't want to do that content don't do it. This update adds something different that might not be for everyone, you still have the entire game (plus one more zone) if you don't want to do the new dungeons.

What skill updates are terrible? The vast majority of the skill updates make them actually work or work better than before or are obvious buffs. It's pretty hard to find a marginal nerf and even then it's PvP-only. You're going to have to be more specific.

I'm fine with infusions. I'm not fine with stat increases. That's something that never existed in GW1 (new items were introduced with stats they may not have existed before, but were stat equivalents). Anet led us to believe that there WOULDN'T be a gear treadmill. That it would be extremely easy to get max stat items, and then do what you find fun. For me, thats WvW (and you don't make a lot of money in WvW). Having to replace 5 sets of exotic armor and 4 sets of exotic jewelry is kind of a slap in the face.

As for skill updates, at least for elementalists, they are a complete joke and riddled with bugs.

• No fix to Windeborne speed trait (currently doesn't give the 15% movement speed when equipping daggers)
  
• Claim to have fixed Cantrip Mastery reducing Mistform Cooldown - however, it doesn't. All that changed is the tooltip shows the reduced cooldown of 60 seconds, and the skill still takes 75 seconds to recharge
  
• The only buffs we got were to conjure weapons which are clunky to begin with (trading 21 skill slots for 5, on a timer with a charge count). Not only that, the increased stats you get for the item only works for the item that conjures in your hand, not the one you pick up off the ground. Conjure weapons need to only replace skills in one attunement (Fiery Greatsword replaces fire skills, etc)
  
• Elementalists are pigeon-holed into a few trait lines (water, arcana, and most left overs in Earth) due to our pathetic hp pool. Fire/Air are pretty much useless in PvP, and leads to you easily getting downed in PvE. We get nerfs to our only viable trait lines with no buffs to Fire/Air, and no addressing of the fact that the design of many of our traits are bad and contradictory. Lots of classes have these issues, but they aren't pigeon-holed to builds as much as Elementalists
  
  • Huge nerf to Evasive Arcana. Not worthy of being Grandmaster Trait anymore. I can understand if they made the blast finishers share a 10 second cooldown with the spell, but they were removed completely.
    
  • Nerf to Healing Ripple, apparently it scaled too well with Healing Power...go figure. I could understand a 50% reduction applied to allies, and I understand reduction in targets to 5...but keep the full heal for the elementalist! We have SHITTY hp pool. How do we keep ourselves up if you keep reducing the effectiveness of our heals and reduction in boons (protection)
    
  • Nerf to Superior Runes used by Elementalists. I'm fine with a low HP pool if we have boons and spells we can cast to keep us up in combat. That's fine. I'm not fine if we're shafted with a low HP pool, and then get blasted by nerfs that reduce boon duration/protection duration/reduction in aura duration
• Stealth nerf to aura's gained from combo fields no longer working with Air trait zephyr's boon.
  
• RTL/magnetic grasp slightly better, but still very buggy
  
• Edit: Forgot to mention, no mention of fixing of trait that is supposed to trigger Arcane Shield at 25% life, but instead triggers it at 10%. Haven't tested to see if still broken, but probably.

Overall, nerfs to elementalists with no accompanying buffs.

Edited by The_Tree_Branch, 16 November 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[gattsuru]

The_Tree_Branch, on 16 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Conjure weapons need to only replace skills in one attunement (Fiery Greatsword replaces fire skills, etc)

That's be a rather counterproductive change -- a lot of the strength of Conjures is that you can cycle to an attunement while carrying one.  Lightning Hammer's probably least useful in Air attunement, for example, and being able to Gust, Gale, or Earthquake, summon a Hammer, shift to Water or Fire attunement, and then begin bashing away is a major strength.  ((Lave Axe and, to a lesser extent, Fiery Greatsword, actively award attunement switching into Air in a similar way.))

The issue's more that we've got to juggle charges, a timer, a recharge timer, random goofballs grabbing the Conjure on the ground, and some out-of-whack balance issues.  I don't think they need to go so far as to give Conjures zero-time recharge like they do Engineer kits -- that's just not compatible with what they do -- but combining a fairly long cast time with an item that we're supposed to be willing to drop whenever situations change gets too tricky to be reasonable.  Especially on an Elite Skill that takes three minutes to recharge.

The Evasive Arcana nerf is very disappointing, even to the blast-heavy S/D player, and it's especially so when so many other traits are meaningless (why do we have four speed-related traits, most of which don't work and none of which stack?) or outright broken.

[Resolve]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 16 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm not all happy about the changes for the game, but saying someone is complaining about complaining provides absolutely nothing to a convo.  I can't even believe I actually have to explain that to someone -.-...

These conversations always go around in circles though and to be fair, A LOT of posts here don't really contribute.

Anyway, it starts soon yeah?

[Own Age Myname]

Burt, on 16 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

My Guardian had a full set of exotic weapons/armor not even 30 minutes after hitting 80. There is very little "grind" in getting exotic armor, so don't pretend you invested half your life into acquiring what you have now.

I hate the way WoW's tiered armor is set up, but I don't have any problem with this Ascended stuff, because I trust ArenaNet.

The creator of this thread is the worst kind of game player: the kind that makes assumptions on how their worst case scenario would play out and then wills it into some perverted fact, whether it's true or not.

Why should you trust ANet? They have lied to us, and now I should put all my faith that this update will work out, and there will never be any tiers? No, I've been through this same song and dance too many times to accept it again.

[EphraimGlass]

Briar, on 16 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Dear Anet,

I do not like your new more powerful gear
I do not want to feel like I have to drudgingly play through your game for the privilage of having fun playing your game
I will run dungeons because it is fun and I feel like it
I will sPvP because it is fun and I feel like it
I will WvW because it is fun and I feel like it
The promise of shinys does not make me want to do somthing, nore does it make it fun
If I wanted to work for shinys I would do it in real life, real life does it better - its called a job

I play a game to play a game

I work to work

Do you get it if I type in short sentences? Because I do not think you do


Sincerely,

Briar

PS. When I am bored I will stop playing, this should be a non issue as you already have my money

I really liked this summary.  It closely matches how I feel.  If I may, I'd like to add one more short sentence to your list of excellent short sentences.
I don't want my access to level-appropriate content limited by my gear.

[karekiz]

Burt, on 16 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

The creator of this thread is the worst kind of game player: the kind that makes assumptions on how their worst case scenario would play out and then wills it into some perverted fact, whether it's true or not.

What if it is true?  Then those "perverted" (really?  going to use that tone to discuss this?) facts turn into....a fact. Not saying OP's numbers are 100% true, but we can figure that they want a bit of grind for shinies by their tone. If you read the article it clearly shows ANet thought people were getting Exotics *too* quickly and hitting the end with only Legendaries to look forward too.  Many didn't actually like doing/working for Legendaries for several reasons so they were left with nothing else.  If you were to make a new tier to give players *more* to do why on earth would you make the new set just as fast as exotics?  They would be stuck in the exact same spot that made them do this in the first place.  They would then have to make an entirely new tier because instead of people hitting the exotic wall and quitting they are new hitting the ascended wall and quitting.  Different name, same dance.

*Edit: And I highly doubt a new tier will convince those players that didn't work on Legendaries to start now, unless they REALLY revamped it with that patch.  They simply aren't fun to get.

Edited by karekiz, 16 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Wordsworth]

Burt, on 16 November 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

My Guardian had a full set of exotic weapons/armor not even 30 minutes after hitting 80. There is very little "grind" in getting exotic armor, so don't pretend you invested half your life into acquiring what you have now.

That's nice, because mine didn't.

I bought my first characters exotics. That's around 15 gold.
On my second character, I bought a set, did a dungeon for armor+weapons and did another two dungeons for two more full armor sets.
On my third, I did a dungeon for a armor+weapon set.

Do you think I would've spent my time and money if I knew another tier existed?

This is the majority of my post 80 game time. Sorry I'm not uberleet with 50 sets of armor that took me 20 minutes each, I guess.

Edited by Wordsworth, 16 November 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[Jason Seven]

Lucas Ashrock, on 16 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

snip

As I've said before, while I play World of Warcraft it is not my main game. That would be Aion. Grinding doesn't show that you're an idiot however, it shows that you put dedication into something. If you get your new set in a few days then it only shows how little effort the developer put into this new content, it should take at least a week to get a full set of newly implemented gear even for the most hardcore. Exploits can only exist if the developers were careless and lazy. I'm not korean either but I like to show my dedication yet GW2 never allowed me to do this. Adding a gear treadmill is absolutely mandatory for any MMO simply due to this very fact. 80% might be disappointed but they will stick around with their vain hopes. The other 20% are what's really important, these need to play in order for the game to become a success. A winning company tries its best to maximize profit and cater to the masses, appealing to a very niche crowd will only take you so far. The previous playerbase isn't enough for ArenaNet, in fact they are considered rather worthless. Just look at the latest update and Ascended gear and tell me who ArenaNet designed this for and you will see that it's not their former players. Of course people will go back to their previous game as long as Guild Wars 2 fails to deliver.

Xekk, on 16 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

snip

Indeed, which is why ArenaNet either puts out content after content rapidly or they will have another failed game that doesn't make them money. You don't need to keep those people happy, just busy, that's all they want and need. ArenaNet might not be able to please these people but they have to try their hardest if they ever want to be successful in their undertaking. Maybe making leveling so ridiculously easy was a mistake? Yes, it was. There's no sense of progression if you level up in GW2, just a higher number on your character. It might as well be without levels. Being nice and helpful is a sureway to be forgotten, showing that you are better than the rest is the way to be remembered. The fact that armor and weapons have the same exact stats as things you can get for a mere two gold doesn't make people want to join the fashion show in the least.

Cescoxonta, on 16 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

snip

You just perfectly described the reason why there are so few players in GW1 and GW2. People don't want to play better, they want rewards. Both games do not reward players enough for them to stick around as you can see.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

If I had a sub I'd be looking for the unsub button about right now. I'll at least wait to see how things actually work out but from what we have heard it sounds like a pile of suck.

Part of the issue is those of us who invested into exotic gear thinking that would be it now have spent mats/gold/skill points that could/would have been saved for this stuff instead.

[GW Corrupted]

Fizzypop, on 15 November 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

This is exactly why they need to figure out who they want to cater too you can't cater to everyone and yet they keep on trying...

They more or less figured out who they wanted to cater to in the 5 years of creating the game.  There is no way that someone believing that a gear grind was essential should have purchased this game after the summer press releases.  None.  ANET should have had no expectation of retaining those customers with their marketing strategy.  What we are seeing is some kind of marketing move by marketers very familiar with the pay-to-win marketing model.  I can't say what line of reasoning was used to justify the move since I'm not privy to the company politics, but in any case they just said 'to hell' with the people they spent 5 years attracting.

[Fizzypop]

Jason Seven, on 16 November 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

I agree. WoW players will most likely always go back to WoW as will Aion players to Aion, Rift players to Rift and TOR players to TOR etc. This is due to the game they previously played offering a lot more of what they want. This also means that their previous game succeeded in making players want to play, something Guild Wars 2 didn't accomplish so far or at least only to a very, very minuscule degree. ArenaNet as well as every other company with an MMORPG has to compete with Blizzard, whether they like it or not. It's possible for them to do so, they've had enough time to gather data and are now executing measures in order to draw the masses to them instead of driving them away. Casuals, non-MMO players, those are both drawn much more towards World of Warcraft just because it has years of development which refined it to nigh perfection. While you are certainly not the only person who wants an MMO with depth and skill being its main focus, having these features isn't going to get you anywhere at all. There needs to be an incentive for people to keep playing. This incentive is known as mandatory grinding, gear treadmills and to a degree also gear gating.

Except it has in other online games? Why can't it work here? Why can't fun be the incentive to play? GW2 sold plenty of people on their original premise. As much as Wow? No. They aren't going to get those types of numbers, but they can get a self-sustaining player base. That's all they need. The idea that gear grinding is the only way an mmo can run is just plain sad. It means that humanity has become so uncreative they can't possibly bother to think outside of their tiny little box. Btw, mmorpgs aren't the only mmos out there.

Edited by Fizzypop, 17 November 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Fizzypop]

GW Corrupted, on 16 November 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

They more or less figured out who they wanted to cater to in the 5 years of creating the game.  There is no way that someone believing that a gear grind was essential should have purchased this game after the summer press releases.  None.  ANET should have had no expectation of retaining those customers with their marketing strategy.  What we are seeing is some kind of marketing move by marketers very familiar with the pay-to-win marketing model.  I can't say what line of reasoning was used to justify the move since I'm not privy to the company politics, but in any case they just said 'to hell' with the people they spent 5 years attracting.

I know and people expect us to just be happy? Don't get it. I just wish they would've figured it out a year ago. >.>

[Nephele]

Fizzypop, on 17 November 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

The idea that gear grinding is the only way an mmo can run is just plain sad. It means that humanity has become so uncreative they can't possibly bother to think outside of their tiny little box. Btw, mmorpgs aren't the only mmos out there.

The problem is designing outside the gear grind box is harder. MMOs need consistent players. Putting in a gear treadmill provides that most efficiently. Even if you screw up and release a flop of a raid tier, people will do it because the gear has better stats. Even if the gear looks awful, people will equip it because it has better stats. Every other possible way to keep people playing takes more effort to work.

Releasing content fast enough to keep players occupied is impossible. No one can do it. Players burn through a full expansion in a matter of 2-3 months. Players got through GW2's initial content in about that long. You can't release at that rate, it's just not happening.

Cosmetic grinding relies on your art department releasing gear that consistently looks good enough to encourage players to work for it. This gets harder and harder as the game goes along because more and more players find a look they really enjoy and simply won't bother getting new gear past that point.

Releasing fun content relies on the content actually being fun. You can't release bad or rushed content because players will quit. Furthermore, after 500+ hours playing the same game, your combat mechanics better be pretty damn polished if you want them to continue to entertain. This also requires the devs to mix it up every so often with new skills, classes, things to do, dungeons to explore, etc. Look at LoL, their new champions keep people playing with this model.

So we're left with gear grind. Because everything else takes more work. Gear grind takes adding +10 stats to an item and calling it a day. The only reason it's still here is the players still fall for it.

[Fizzypop]

Nephele, on 17 November 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

The problem is designing outside the gear grind box is harder. MMOs need consistent players. Putting in a gear treadmill provides that most efficiently. Even if you screw up and release a flop of a raid tier, people will do it because the gear has better stats. Even if the gear looks awful, people will equip it because it has better stats. Every other possible way to keep people playing takes more effort to work.

Releasing content fast enough to keep players occupied is impossible. No one can do it. Players burn through a full expansion in a matter of 2-3 months. Players got through GW2's initial content in about that long. You can't release at that rate, it's just not happening.

Cosmetic grinding relies on your art department releasing gear that consistently looks good enough to encourage players to work for it. This gets harder and harder as the game goes along because more and more players find a look they really enjoy and simply won't bother getting new gear past that point.

Releasing fun content relies on the content actually being fun. You can't release bad or rushed content because players will quit. Furthermore, after 500+ hours playing the same game, your combat mechanics better be pretty damn polished if you want them to continue to entertain. This also requires the devs to mix it up every so often with new skills, classes, things to do, dungeons to explore, etc. Look at LoL, their new champions keep people playing with this model.

So we're left with gear grind. Because everything else takes more work. Gear grind takes adding +10 stats to an item and calling it a day. The only reason it's still here is the players still fall for it.

Yep being creative is harder, but somehow writers do it, artists do it, and yes even other game designers do it. So I know it's possible. If they wanted to be uncreative why did they bother spending so much time and cash on attracting players who do not want gear grinds? It makes zero sense. I agree with you...without a gear grind they had to have more fun content in game. I think they could do that (and I was willing to wait for it). The new instance from what I hear is actually pretty fun (haven't played it don't know). So I know they have it in them to make fun content. The game at times felt like it had split personality. It wanted to appear non-grinding, but then added grind because they weren't sure wtf to do. Either way, it doesn't mean they are absolved for their part nor does it mean they can get my sympathy. They marketed this game one way and it's not that way. It's been slowly going away from their original goal. I'm going to hold them accountable for their own actions.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. I just really wish people would stop defending gear grinding as if it's the only way because once we do that we can finally move on to something more fun. I've been ready for the next mmo for years.

Edited by Fizzypop, 17 November 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[Bloggi]

Jason Seven, on 16 November 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Being nice and helpful is a sureway to be forgotten, showing that you are better than the rest is the way to be remembered.

Obviously you and I run on very different philosophies. Anyway, without straying too far off topic, just to state again, I definitely don't believe that hardcore players are the only ones that matter in the end. We agree to disagree.