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Ascended items appear to require an insane grind...

ascended grind gear-treadmill

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#181 Zippor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:01 AM

I've run the Fractal till now from since it started. We got to level 5 with my party and I collected 140 fractal tokens in that time. All of the paths were a blast and quite fun, I can see myself being entertained for quite a long time as long as the difficulty starts to kick in, level 5 didn't feel like anything yet. One of the best things out of it is the changes, we saw couple of the different fractals changing in the midway to something different. I suspect there are around 3 different 'endings' per fractal. Boss and general mechanics wise, everything was already many times better and more engaging than any of the older dungeons. Can't wait to get to the levels that pose a challenge and also looking forward to getting some of the newest shinies available.

#182 Wordsworth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:02 AM

So does it reward more tokens the higher your level?

#183 Zippor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:04 AM

Yes, that's what it looks like. But I guess you would need to be around 20 or something to really see them more.

Edited by Zippor, 17 November 2012 - 03:04 AM.


#184 Valkaire

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:05 AM

View PostWordsworth, on 17 November 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

So does it reward more tokens the higher your level?

I'm assuming if he got 140tokens after 15 fractals, then yes the rewards do increase. If you only got 5 tokens per fractal completion then they would have gotten what, 75tokens in 5 runs?

Edited by Valkaire, 17 November 2012 - 03:05 AM.


#185 Zippor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:09 AM

View PostValkaire, on 17 November 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

I'm assuming if he got 140tokens after 15 fractals, then yes the rewards do increase. If you only got 5 tokens per fractal completion then they would have gotten what, 75tokens in 5 runs?

I should mention that the party members didn't all get the same amount of tokens in the same time. I got the most 140, while other party members got around 110-135 or so. I read on the official forums that the rewards should be the same for everyone so I suspect this to be a bug.

#186 Valkaire

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:10 AM

View PostZippor, on 17 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

I should mention that the party members didn't all get the same amount of tokens in the same time. I got the most 140, while other party members got around 110-135 or so. I read on the official forums that the rewards should be the same for everyone so I suspect this to be a bug.

Ah, kay. My guild didn't get that far without taking a break because one of our guys dced but even if it was 110 that's still more than 5per fractal (15 per run). There's also the special loot bags or w/e that they added that give tokens and drop from bosses/ a 4th fractal special encounter I believe, that could also have something to do with the varying token gains.

Edited by Valkaire, 17 November 2012 - 03:11 AM.


#187 DuskWolf

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:26 AM

View PostBriar, on 16 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Dear Anet,

I do not like your new more powerful gear
I do not want to feel like I have to drudgingly play through your game for the privilage of having fun playing your game
I will run dungeons because it is fun and I feel like it
I will sPvP because it is fun and I feel like it
I will WvW because it is fun and I feel like it
The promise of shinys does not make me want to do somthing, nore does it make it fun
If I wanted to work for shinys I would do it in real life, real life does it better - its called a job

I play a game to play a game

I work to work
Bravo! A brilliant post! Simply brilliant!

The point that some fail to realise is the failure to deliver on the potential of GW2. But what was that potential? What did they promise us? What was the core of it? Fun, dagummit! Fun!!

Today, people log on to scour the shores of a beach for flotsam and jetsam. What sort of depraved mind sees that as fun? Do they have actuaries developing content, there? Please, allow me to share some perspective with whomever is bold enough to read this: You have a book in your hands, and the chapter you're on describes a character who's walking along a beach checking similar items. There are only very base descriptions of the objects at hand, and you're aware that a lot of other people are sharing this activity with the protagonist. The motivation to do this is very suspect, and yet they do it because they've been told to do it.

You sit back, you look at your book, and you wonder whether you're reading some kind of psychiatry textbook. Because it all sounds like some twisted social experiment, as you couldn't imagine a more boring activity. But no, apparently the author thought that this would be fun to read. Instead, you put the book down. You saunter over to your bookshelf and pick up something with true adventure, emotiona, and drama in it. Something that's actually fun to read.

And fun is the problem here. Everything is timid, tame, quiet, and... how can I put this? Limited isn't quite the correct word. It's like a playground where every child is given edutational tasks, busywork to keep them quiet. Just enough to keep them interested, but not enough for them to be entertained. It's not fun, it's just something to do. The tasks keep the mind occupied, and the promise of better things brings in operant conditioning. Something better will be just around the corner, so let's continue with our menial labour for now. It will get better eventually. Except aside from a few moments, it doesn't. It really doesn't.

Operant conditioning is never a substitute for fun.

Anyone who reads this needs to understand the Rule of Fun.

I keep linking that in the hopes that people will read it and perhaps open their eyes.

Now, if I'd designed this game? The Black Citadel would have been much larger in scale. Lots more NPCs, and something almost akin to a fantasy dyson sphere. The engineer would have had a chainsaw at his disposal, along with other fun gadgets, and a small army of mobile bots to aid him in the field. The engineer himself would be in heavy armour that makes him look almost like a heavy tank, and he'd have massive presence on the battlefield. This is what I'd consider fun. To be honest, GW2 feels like a cheap knock off of the game I would have designed. Egotistical? Arrogant? Maybe. But bloody true.

Because if there's one thing I know... it's that fun is important. The Rule of Fun is the most important design rule of all. Instead, as a charr, I found my city to be underwhelming compared to the concept art. I found that my most fun tool as an enginere was a piss-poor 'flamethrower' that missed most of the time. How do you do that? How do you make a flamethrower unfun? How?! How bad do you have to be at design, how much must you hate fun, in order to make a flamethrower like the one engineers have to put up with in GW2? Who thought that was a good idea?

And this is the problem. GW2, as it stands, has an absence of fun. I don't find my city fun, I find it boring. I don't find my profession fun, I find it boring. I don't find the content fun, I find it boring. I don't find the new content fun, either. I mean, if you find sifting through junk on a beach to be genuinely fun then... I have to ask. Are you an actuary? Have you ever daydreamed? Ever read a comic book or a stirring novel? What's wrong with MMORPG developers and players? Are you all so soulless? So much so that you accept a treadmill as an acceptable substitute for fun.

What the hell, people?

And that's my problem. I don't want to log in to GW2 because none of the things I could do are fun. Hanging out in my city isn't fun. Playing the engineer isn't fun. Doing the content isn't fun. And unlike many MMORPG gamers, I'm not a weak-minded person who falls prey to operant conditioning. I don't think that a treadmill is the be-all-and-end-all answer to everything. And don't tell me that you need a treadmill to create fun, because that's utter nonsense. And don't tell me that it would be hard for ArenaNet to make GW2 fun, either.

I've played a bunch of indie games lately that were fun and had no need for progression. Hands up! How many of you have played Hotline Miami? Made by two people, no progression, and you want to keep playing it. Why? It's fun, damn it.

ArenaNet could fix this this. I KEEP STRESSING THIS.

But they'll only fix it if we pull our heads out of the sand and tell them that we want fun, not treadmills. I'm no one's enemy, here.

---- Edit ----

I kind of want to expand on how let down I feel by how tame and uncreative the game is.

Okay, the Black Citadel. In the original concept art, it was a gigantic sphere. What this did with my imagination was a fantasy dyson sphere. Yes. Basically, what I thought was that due to the unique physiology of oozes, they could basically have an oozecore, constantly lit up. That would work similar to geothermal energy for them, and they'd use that to power the various parts of the Citadel, all of which would be a giant, self-replicating machine. A machine that produces more.

This would explain how they manufacture the various things that they do. The massive let down that is the actual Black Citadel doesn't at all have the scope to support the kind of things they're building, and that disappoints me. How amazing would a giant dyson sphere of black metal have been? Instead of just the slapdash war camp that it turned out to be, with random bits of junk plating, it could have been this beautiful clockpunk machine with lots of moving parts.

They instanced the game, so there's really no excuse. Even with the amount of players, a properly optimisd engine can run very complex looking locales populated by lots of units. Look at Assassin's Creed, for example. Or, hell, Everquest II. EQ II had absolutely massive cities. And with that sort of design they could have really lived up to the original concept art. Instead, it's just ... timid, tame. "No, no," I can almost hear the actuary heading up GW2's design saying, "that's far too over the top. Their tiny minds wouldn't be able to have that much fun. Tone it down. Make it smaller. Smaller. More humble. Less impressive. It's still not unimpressive enough. Do you have a problem understanding the concept of less impressive?"

And the end result just leaves me feeling cold.

Edited by DuskWolf, 17 November 2012 - 03:39 AM.


#188 Zippor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:34 AM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

This is what I'd consider fun.

And I'm finding most of the things I do in Guild Wars 2, fun. It's because I know what entertains me, I know what areas of the game appeal to me and what I can have fun with. Right now it's the new dungeon, Fractal of the Mists, it has some very clever gameplay elements that I didn't think they could come up with. I just hope it becomes a bit more challenging on the higher levels since it could really amp up my interest on it.

#189 omar316

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:53 AM

View PostFizzypop, on 17 November 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

Yep being creative is harder, but somehow writers do it, artists do it, and yes even other game designers do it. So I know it's possible. If they wanted to be uncreative why did they bother spending so much time and cash on attracting players who do not want gear grinds? It makes zero sense. I agree with you...without a gear grind they had to have more fun content in game. I think they could do that (and I was willing to wait for it). The new instance from what I hear is actually pretty fun (haven't played it don't know). So I know they have it in them to make fun content. The game at times felt like it had split personality. It wanted to appear non-grinding, but then added grind because they weren't sure wtf to do. Either way, it doesn't mean they are absolved for their part nor does it mean they can get my sympathy. They marketed this game one way and it's not that way. It's been slowly going away from their original goal. I'm going to hold them accountable for their own actions.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. I just really wish people would stop defending gear grinding as if it's the only way because once we do that we can finally move on to something more fun. I've been ready for the next mmo for years.

Valid points but do note. Gear grind for cosmetics is still a grind if the bar is set high enough. A MMO in general is a grind. There is no other way to put it. Period.

You grind for something. My definition of a grind is consistently doing a repetitive task, routinely to achieve or try to achieve a goal. You grind other players in DAoC/Warhammer for Realm points, you grind dungeons for that exclusive armour set.

Just to clarify, a grind is no way bad, if it is interesting enough. There is no way you can fight the same people the same way twice in a PvP environment. Am I still grinding? Yes. Is it boring? Nope.

This method retains players, because it is interesting. It is simple to implement. Now, to the 2nd part. Lets just say we do not implement any type of a upgrade, specifically stats wise.

A game where you cannot have a disparity means the community/game will become stale very quickly. Some minor stat increase will actually be better off in the long run as it inspires most to try to be as good as him. How fast you can acquire it is another matter totally and there is no way you can stop those who put in massive efforts to get it asap.

Now, this is just 1 problem with GW2. As another user pointed out, the combat mechanics and skills have already become stale. It became stale at level 10. They introduced a new concept, but though it remained fresh for about 40 levels, the next 40 it became completely redundant.

Also as you pointed out the main issue s not really the concept of not having gear grind but how not to shoot yourslef in the foot by making some boring shit and expect people to follow through like blind fanboys. Actually in the past week since the mention of the LS content the number of Anet white knights have gone down substantially.

Anyways, the TL:DR - Anet made the best decision to save the game by introducing a statistics grind.
On a final note, the new dungeons are fantastic. Short and bloody well designed.

The fella who made this system needs to tell Anet how to make more interesting PvE content.

Next up lets see how WvW performs.

#190 omar316

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:04 AM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Fun.

I cannot agree more. But I think we do need to consider that this concept is beyond Anet's capability to achieve in a short timespan.
First and foremost a MMORPG needs a consistently large player base. I mean I do not consider running through a map with no one other human to be a fun experience.

Thus such a knee jerk reaction of implementing this new gear treadmill. Unfortunate, yes, but it did bring back masses. It got the job done. What Anet does in the future is really what we can hope to influence.

#191 Im Legion

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:29 AM

(For me) the fractals are FUN. I couldn't care less about what items you get there, they're just fun to do. I find WvW fun as well, and there are no rewards to be had there as far as I can tell. Just because you don't enjoy something, doesn't make it inherently not 'fun', it just means you enjoy different things than others and perhaps the game is not for you. If the core of the game provides you with nothing you enjoy then I really think it's time to move on and stop waiting for them to add something you do enjoy, as it's likely your opinions on what is fun differ from the game designers.

#192 DuskWolf

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

View Postomar316, on 17 November 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

I cannot agree more. But I think we do need to consider that this concept is beyond Anet's capability to achieve in a short timespan.
No, no it isn't!

What can they do right now to make the game feel more fun and like less of a drag?

- Remove the tiered gear and make a promise that there won't be any more.

And the short term?

- Speed up combat by 4-6x.
- Speed up the base movement speed by 8-10x.
- Remove costs from waypoints.
- Lower gear costs again.
- Make dyes account-wide.

That's just in the short term. I've been involved in game development, and that's something they could do in less than a month with the amount of manpower they have. I'm not even joking.

After that?

- Look at the broken profession skills (like the flamethrower).
- Add in some new AI routines (resurrecting allies, seeking out groups of the same faction of mob if alone and low on health).
- Include reverse-scaling, so going into a higher level area scales you up.
- Look into adding more jumping puzzles.
- Fix the damn armour clipping issues.

In the long term?

- Rebuild the cities, redesign them to be the glorious things they were meant to be.
- Look at how to add in some content which is genuinely varied and fun. (Some proper puzzles and mysteries would be nice.)
- Add some abilities to the professions which go outside of what they're 'supposed to do' to make them more varied and fun.
- Finally add in those city activities, try to do something fun. (Like helicopter flying.)
- Make the personal home city area worthwhile. Add in some fun missions to customise it.
- Make the races feel more cool to play, rather than being timid with them.

And don't tell me these can't be done. Champions Online has a skeleton crew of a dev team and with that they managed a drastic redesign of an area which is far bigger than any of the GW2 cities. ArenaNet has resources pouring out the wazoo! They're drowning in them. They have more people than they know what to do with. It's just that their priorites are all wrong. Maybe they just need to sack some of the higher-ups who're making all of these bad decisions.

View PostZippor, on 17 November 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

And I'm finding most of the things I do in Guild Wars 2, fun.
You think that content which is exclusively the following is fun?

- Kill through waves of kamikaze zerging foes, all almost identical to the last.
- Interact with objects, most of which are just reskins.
- Resurrect people.

You think that, for example, walking along a beach and interacting with flotsam and jetsam is fun?

Okay then.

You and I have a different definition of fun.

To me, your definition of fun sounds like busywork. My definition of fun sounds like fun.

And noap, not going to stop linking that until people finally see what I'm getting at. :I

--- Edit ---

Something else occurs to me...

Hands up, who here has played the naval battles in Assassin's Creed III? Some of you? Okay, yes, good. Right. So... ArenaNet is supposed to be this grand innovator, right? So, tell me this: Why do we not have anything like those in Guild Wars 2? Let me present you with an idea that's bloody fun.

You're in an flying clockpunk warship. Instead of the crappy final battle with Zhaitan, you're taking him out in this massive, incredible sky battle. Zhaitan stretches out as far as you can see. It's incredible. He has friendlies flying with him, and vulnerable points on his head, which you're flying near. You need to zip around the ship, piloting it, using the various weapons (which do different things) to attack his minions and him, and you need to work on repairing the ship to keep it in the air.

Even better, you're one of a fleet. Each ship has five to ten players on it, with a total of perhaps 10-20 ships. You're working with the others ships to keep the pressure on, you weave in and out, doing what you can before retreating. There are even repair cannons on the ship which you can use to aid others. So if one of the ships is doing really good, you can keep the minions off them and repair them as they fight.

And perhaps add in massive tesla coil guns that can stun all the minions within an area for X amount of seconds. The idea here is that all of the ships would have all of these guns, to damage minions/Zhaitan, to control, and to repair. This would represent the true design that ArenaNet were trying to uphold, where everyone could do whatever role was required of them at the time.

This would require actually manning stations on the ships in first or third person.

What if we'd had something like that instead of the bloody awful final battle we did get? See, this is what I would have done. Because that would have been over the top and amazing. Do you know what else it would have been? Fun.

Edited by DuskWolf, 17 November 2012 - 11:14 AM.


#193 Grumpdogg

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

What if we'd had something like that instead of the bloody awful final battle we did get? See, this is what I would have done. Because that would have been over the top and amazing. Do you know what else it would have been? Fun.

Half way through the Zaitan fight, the truth hit me and I was awoken to the huge pile of lies GW2 PvE was in reality - after months of buying into the hype.

Ever since then, they've kept on forging a path directly perpendicular to their stated manifesto. But that continuing divergence is just accepted now and doesn't even shock me.

"Revolutionary"? It's barely Evolutionary.

#194 GW Corrupted

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

View Postomar316, on 17 November 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

I cannot agree more. But I think we do need to consider that this concept is beyond Anet's capability to achieve in a short timespan.
First and foremost a MMORPG needs a consistently large player base. I mean I do not consider running through a map with no one other human to be a fun experience.

Thus such a knee jerk reaction of implementing this new gear treadmill. Unfortunate, yes, but it did bring back masses. It got the job done. What Anet does in the future is really what we can hope to influence.

Brought back the masses?  Not sure.  But it sure did lock them away in a single dungeon.  Don't expect to see a lot of people running around the Iron Marches any time soon.

#195 Draugadan

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:48 PM

View PostGW Corrupted, on 17 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Brought back the masses?  Not sure.  But it sure did lock them away in a single dungeon.  Don't expect to see a lot of people running around the Iron Marches any time soon.

After 1 week of not logging in, I hopped in yesterday for the one-time event. The huge lag and the 378 karma reward after 30 minutes of fighting crabs were a big killer of my desire to play (not to mention the ascended gear). The event didn't have the same effect on everyone though. I was still the only person online in my small guild.

#196 Korra

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:48 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

EHUhUEHUEHue


Just stop playing if you have so many complaints. Simple as that.

Also, lol@increase movement speed x10

#197 Zippor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

You think that content which is exclusively the following is fun?

- Kill through waves of kamikaze zerging foes, all almost identical to the last.
- Interact with objects, most of which are just reskins.
- Resurrect people.

You think that, for example, walking along a beach and interacting with flotsam and jetsam is fun?

Okay then.

You and I have a different definition of fun.

To me, your definition of fun sounds like busywork. My definition of fun sounds like fun.

And noap, not going to stop linking that until people finally see what I'm getting at. :I


And there you just go on and assume things. No, I don't find Cursed Shore farm or any other wave after wave zerg mob farming fun. What I do find fun is working together with multitude of people to make a successful assault on a tower or keep, or trying to capture and keep a point in sPvP map to the best of my ability. Most of the original dungeons were dull too, but at least there was one exception: Arah. That place was almost good, not good enough, but almost.

This new dungeon, Fractal of the Mists, seems a lot more to my liking. Short to semi-long dungeon sprints with fun mechanics in most part, with scaling difficulty. This is something I've been looking for, the dungeon itself is a great platform for expansion since it works in the Mists, they could find new fractals from time to time. The best thing is the scaling, I don't care how it does it (bigger HP pool and bigger damage / agony) since I enjoy any kind of challenge (I'm looking at you Dark Souls).

I wonder what you meant by interacting with objects since I haven't seen that much, maybe at the leveling stage but I will never get to that again since I never make any alts. Dungeons had some object interaction that were pretty nice (Arah ball traveling and golem escort), while the new dungeon seems to have a lot better ideas with object interacting.

Resurrecting people, I don't see how it could be somekind of an issue, in WvW if you get downed then people usually help you up quite fast. If you are defeated then you should just waypoint, no one should be bothering to pick you up, at least in the middle of a fight. In PvE, I just don't see that much downed players, our dungeon group can stay up pretty well in most of the encounters so we don't have to rush to pick someone up. We support each other through our set of skills and combo fields.

#198 Milennin

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

No, no it isn't!

What can they do right now to make the game feel more fun and like less of a drag?

- Remove the tiered gear and make a promise that there won't be any more.

And the short term?

- Speed up combat by 4-6x.
- Speed up the base movement speed by 8-10x.
- Remove costs from waypoints.
- Lower gear costs again.
- Make dyes account-wide.

Speeding up combat by 4-6x would make it look utterly ridiculous.
Speeding up base movement speed by 8-10x so we move at the speed of cars? Sounds to me like you would prefer a Sonic the Hedgehog game over an RPG.
Remove effective gold sinks to speed up inflation that much faster? Yeah, sounds great. Not.
Account-wide dyes might be the only thing I could agree on, although with the decent drop rate on dyes, and extremely low price on most of the dyes on the trade post, I don't really see the problem.

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

After that?

- Look at the broken profession skills (like the flamethrower).
- Add in some new AI routines (resurrecting allies, seeking out groups of the same faction of mob if alone and low on health).
- Include reverse-scaling, so going into a higher level area scales you up.
- Look into adding more jumping puzzles.
- Fix the damn armour clipping issues.

They already do look in broken skills. They're just slow at fixing them.
What's the point in up-scaling people? I don't understand.
They added a bunch of new jumping puzzles last month. Ungrateful kid.
You claim to be involved in game development, yet don't understand how hard it is to deal with clipping in a game with 5 different races and a big selection of different gear to mix and match with. Right.

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

In the long term?

- Rebuild the cities, redesign them to be the glorious things they were meant to be.
- Look at how to add in some content which is genuinely varied and fun. (Some proper puzzles and mysteries would be nice.)
- Add some abilities to the professions which go outside of what they're 'supposed to do' to make them more varied and fun.
- Finally add in those city activities, try to do something fun. (Like helicopter flying.)
- Make the personal home city area worthwhile. Add in some fun missions to customise it.
- Make the races feel more cool to play, rather than being timid with them.

And don't tell me these can't be done. Champions Online has a skeleton crew of a dev team and with that they managed a drastic redesign of an area which is far bigger than any of the GW2 cities. ArenaNet has resources pouring out the wazoo! They're drowning in them. They have more people than they know what to do with. It's just that their priorites are all wrong. Maybe they just need to sack some of the higher-ups who're making all of these bad decisions.

Big doesn't equal quality. The problem with cities is that they're dead zones. No one goes there because there's nothing to do. The least that you want a developer to waste time on is making a dead zone a bigger dead zone. Give people a reason to be in cities by adding real content there.
Oh no, a game that's clearly focused mainly around combat is getting mostly combat content. How dare they. Maybe you should look into getting a Zelda game, I don't know.
Yes, something to do in cities is what we need. Not make them bigger.
The home instance is a waste of space, although they've already said player housing is going to be added some time.
Not sure what you mean by this... Buff racial skills? And then have people pick a race for their racial instead of looks or lore or whatever?

#199 Expherious

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:41 PM

View PostWordsworth, on 16 November 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not even. The point is that the update should've been just challenge. A new dungeon, new zone, new cosmetics. Not new stats. Apparently ANet didn't believe the update would succeed without stat incentive.

So if the challenge isn't a problem, why complain? buckle down and get it done.

View PostCorvindi, on 16 November 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

I have a yard outback with dog crap scattered everywhere.  Epic mounds of the stuff.  It would be a major challenge to clean it all up, especially if you manage not to step in any of it.

Here is a shovel and a trash bag, let me know when you're done and I'll reward you with a shiny new pooper scooper 3000!  :D

Just because something is 'challenging' and rewards you with something new doesn't mean it's fun.

Sounds to me like some people would rather have things handed to them rather then working for it. Hence the massive amounts of excrement in your back yard.

#200 Corvindi

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostExpherious, on 17 November 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

So if the challenge isn't a problem, why complain? buckle down and get it done.



Sounds to me like some people would rather have things handed to them rather then working for it. Hence the massive amounts of excrement in your back yard.

Yeah, it does sound like that, doesn't it?  Like maybe ArenaNet would rather have our money handed to them to do something most of us don't enjoy just to get a shiny new toy to start shoveling more of what we don't enjoy.

Gee.

#201 Wordsworth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostExpherious, on 17 November 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

So if the challenge isn't a problem, why complain? buckle down and get it done.



Sounds to me like some people would rather have things handed to them rather then working for it. Hence the massive amounts of excrement in your back yard.

It's what I'm working for that's the issue, not that I have to work for it. Get it yet?

#202 Ardeni

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:44 PM

I don't know about the rings, but at least I got my quiver today. It wasn't that much of a farm. You just need about 20-40g, 24 skill points and the item from FotM. Didn't seem like an awful amount of grind to me.

#203 Nightow

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

I wish they'd add more resources for this type of item than just the mystic forge. It probably takes less time than to put it in as a boss's drop but more options are always a good thing. Not everyone finds grinding out materials to be fun or crafting beyond your standard RPG crafting skill sets.

#204 Ca|sifer

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:47 PM

Just hold off ascended items for now, ANet already stated that they would implement ways to attain asc. items through WvW, current dungeons, etc.

#205 DuskWolf

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:40 PM

Grumpdogg: "Revolutionary? It's barely Evolutionary."

Yep. That's my issue. After having played Champions Online, which felt revolutionary due to how different the combat and content feels to WoW... hell, after playing Star Trek Online, which has flanking damage and starship combat, it's hard to see how GW2 is really that different than WoW.

And instead of understanding that I'm suggesting things that would actually make the game better, the rabidly overzealous fanboys ignore my opinions and attack me. As I'm sure we'll see with the rest of this post. Anyone else noticed how much I make them defensive? The cognitive dissonance and self-deluding is strong with them. :I

Korra: "Just stop playing if you have so many complaints. Simple as that.

"Also, lol@increase movement speed x10"

I complain because the game could be made better.

You laugh at the increase of movement speed, but Champions Online has a significantly fast movement speed and it feels fantastic. I know it's hard for you to imagine because your gaming experiences have been more limited than mine. What this means is that I can imagine more than you can.

GW2 sped up would feel much more fun than the 'moving through treacle' feel it has right now. It's like the air of Tyria is made of treacle, and you just have to really use all of your energy to push you rway through it. It shouldn't feel like that.

Milennin: "Speeding up combat by 4-6x would make it look utterly ridiculous.

"Speeding up base movement speed by 8-10x so we move at the speed of cars? Sounds to me like you would prefer a Sonic the Hedgehog game over an RPG.

"Remove effective gold sinks to speed up inflation that much faster? Yeah, sounds great. Not."

In regards to making the game feel faster, your brain is failing to understand that the speed increases are not that huge. What you're not comprehending because of your limited understanding is that Guild Wars 2 is already very slow. Compare the movement of GW2 with a spectacle fighter like Devil May Cry. Even if you increase the speed that much, you'd still only be at half of the speed of a spectacle fighter.

You act as though the numbers I've suggested are massive numbers, you act as though 4x is 400x, and this just shows how really screwed up and skewed your perceptions are. This makes me wonder whether you've ever played anything other than WoW. Not just other MMOs, but even other games, period. Guild Wars 1's combat was already around 3x faster than GW2.

What you fail to understand is that that's why it's so jarring for me. It's fine if all you've ever played is WoW. But once you've played other games, other MMOs even, you start to twig why GW2 is just so painfully slow.

And are those gold sinks necessary? Why? The fact of the matter is that ArenaNet controls the economy and the price of things on the auction house, anyway, so they have other methods of dealing with inflation. But apparently needing to grind for gold is a good thing, and you can't even see any other solutions than grinding for gold. Instead of yelling at me about that, how about we work to find other solutions? This is, once again, why I feel you've never played anything other than WoW.

Guild Wars 1 didn't really have any gold sinks of that kind. No armour repair, no teleportation costs, nothing. Oh my! It must have been so terrible! And yet it wasn't. Care to explain?

I kind of wish people would think before lashing out at me.

But that's like asking for the moon.

Milennin: "They already do look in broken skills. They're just slow at fixing them."

Yes. They're appparently too interested in rolling out new gear tiers.

Milennin: "What's the point in up-scaling people? I don't understand."

Because the lower-end content is simply not as fun. Thier thesis is basically that you should be able to enjoy fun content at any time, rather than being forced to grind from mind-numbingly boring stuff to actually get to the good stuff. Implementing upscaling so that people can do things like jumping straight into the Shatterer fight rather than toiling around with buckets of water and doing other menial tasks fits their ethos.

All you have to do is think about what I'm saying rather than lashing out.

Milennin: "They added a bunch of new jumping puzzles last month. Ungrateful kid."

That's immature of you, now isn't it?

You can't attack my arguments, so instead you attack me, and you insinuate a lack of age. Yup. That's oh so mature, so refined of you, so not at all kneejerk. To be honest, considering how bratty you've been in attacking me as opposed to my arguments, I think you're projecting.

Yes, they added a couple, but my opinion was that they needed to concentrate more on those to actually provide a variety. Or did you not understand that, either? Again, instead of just lashing out and attacking me, try to read and understand my opinions.

My opinion is that the game is floundering due to the lack of diversity in content. Think, then type.

Milennin: "You claim to be involved in game development, yet don't understand how hard it is to deal with clipping in a game with 5 different races and a big selection of different gear to mix and match with. Right."

Because it isn't that hard. Everquest II has no clipping for any of the races. You only assume it's this monumentally hard thing because you've actually never done 3D modelling, rigging, and animating. But it's no different than drawing a picture. It's actually seriously not that difficult. If they assigned enough people to it, they could make some minor model edits and rerigs in a matter of months.

But again, you're lashing out with a lack of understanding. You're proving your ignorance to me, here. You're just showing me that you have no idea how model-editing works. I've done model-editing myself and worked closely with people in the same vocation, you'd be amazed at how quickly things can get done.

You talk about these things as if they were magic to you, and you uphold the Sorcerers involved in weaving these things into existence with godlike respect. It's just work, man. Like any other form thereof. It can be done well, and it can also be done quickly. The problem is is that we humans are lazy when we're not passionate about things, so incentives need to be there. Maybe if NCsoft hadn't underfunded ArenaNet so badly, leaving their employee payrolls so woefully low, this wouldn't have happened.

But to say it's something they can't fix becuase oh, the Sorcerous powers may only be used when the moons are aligned, and they've harvested the appropriate amount of souls is utterly ridiculous, hilariously so. It really does show your ignorance. Why do so many people think that day to day work is magic?

That bothers me. It really does. As an artist myself, that honestly annoys me. It's like the idea that people are born as artists, rather than just learning to be by working at it. That art is magic, rather than just learning things like anatomy, and how to be observant. This was perhaps the most grating part of your post, for me. And if consumers continue to believe the things that you believe, nothing will ever get done!

Milennin: "Big doesn't equal quality."

Except that it does. Imagine if all the cities in Assassin's Creed with just mere villages with little visual variety. Big does equal quality. If you'd ever walked around a city in Assassin's Creed, or if you'd ever played Everquet II or Champions Online, you'd understand how fantastic having a large city with a lot of visual variety is. Having a home city that actually feels impressive does a lto to boost morale. It's something for a player to come home too.

But if the city is small and unimpressive, then it's just underwhelming, and you don't feel the need to go back there. I implore you to play Everquest II for a little while, just so that you can understand just what a large, varied city can do for you. But the problem you seem to be having is t hat you believe that variety in a game doesn't help. It does. It helps immensely.

See, you're failing to understand that it isn't the bigness, it's that the city is big enough to be varied. The cities in GW2 aren't big enough to be varied. The cities in CO, EQ2, and certain other games are.

Milennin: "The problem with cities is that they're dead zones."

They're dead zones in Guild Wars 2. The reason for that is because it's no fun to go back there. There's no variety, no in city activities, they're not fun to roleplay in. These are all topics I covered in my post. Are you purposefully being obstinant and arrogant?

Play another MMO, like Everquest II or Champions Online, and you'll see lots of people in cities. All you need to do to be able to re-evaluate your opinions is to have played other things. Again, at this point... I just can't tell. I'm thinking you might be trolling me? WoW and GW2 aren't the only two games in existence, you know?

Milennin: "Oh no, a game that's clearly focused mainly around combat is getting mostly combat content."

This one made me snicker.

See, it's like you're trying to purport that variety is bad. Look at any single- or multi-player game and you'll see that not only do they have combat, they have plenty of other things going on in order to vary things up. Take Zelda! You mentioned Zelda, right? So let's go with that. In Zelda games you have puzzles in dungeons, and you have the use of various gadgets. But apparently Zelda shouldn't have any of this, it should just have combat and only combat.

Can you imagine how boring of a game Zelda would be if it didn't have anything but combat? See, at this point, you're either being intellectually dishonest or you're just an incredibly boring person. I can't decide which. But you'll find for the majority of people, having a variety of content (including non-combat content) is important.

The most requested mods in Torchlight I were puzzle dungeons. That's why Torchlight II has puzzle dungeon chunks which don't involve just spamming the left mouse button, in those you have to stop and think about a puzzle before you proceed. Some of those puzzles even require friends. Before you spam your quote button again... stop and think about that.

No, really. Think. Let it percolate. Understand.

Milennin: "The home instance is a waste of space [...]"

Hi, I'm Milennin and I think that all of the half-arsed ideas should be removed from GW2, rather than being fleshed out and turned into something fun.

Really? At this point... are you just trollin' me? I... can't tell. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I really do. But... you are, aren't you? You have to be. How can you not be?

Milennin: "Not sure what you mean by this... Buff racial skills? And then have people pick a race for their racial instead of looks or lore or whatever?"

No. Not essentially. What I mean by this is to make the races feel more different. For example, the norn? Right now, they feel like giant humans, especially the women. There's so much you could do there in order to actually make them feel more enjoyable, look at the clothing of NPCs in the Hoelbrak, for example, and compare that to the NPCs of Skyrim.

Then you could also provide some of those armours to be worn. You could also look at the norn racial and make it so that they're actually were-creatures, as they were meant to be, rather than having to wait til level 30 for an elite you'll never use. It's not that hard when you think about it.

But you don't want to think. You just want to lash out and attack. :I

I'm not your enemy. I'm trying to improve this game.

I'm genuinely trying to do that.

I invite you to shush for a moment and think about what I'm saying, rather than hitting back with yet another attack, where you prove your own ignorance more than anything else. Okay?

Edited by DuskWolf, 17 November 2012 - 11:43 PM.


#206 Aventurian

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 17 November 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

It's like a playground where every child is given edutational tasks, busywork to keep them quiet.

You got that one wrong. The developers, project managers, product managers, and team leads who are responsible for this do not perceive the player base as kids.

But as guinea pigs.

#207 DuskWolf

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

View PostAventurian, on 17 November 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

You got that one wrong. The developers, project managers, product managers, and team leads who are responsible for this do not perceive the player base as kids.

But as guinea pigs.
Huh. Hahaha. Yes. That's a fair point.

See, whenever I think about GW2 in another context, like... okay, turn GW2 into a book. If you were to read about what you do in GW2 rather than actually playing it, it sounds like some twisted social experiment. Behavioural observation and mdification, that sort of thing. I have an armchair interest in that, anyway, and that's what it's like. Then you throw in operant conditioning to try and convince them that's fun.

The whole thing becomes an experiment to try and convince people that something unfun is actually fun, and on some people it's clearly working. That's... intriguing.

Okay, I tip my hat to you. Fair point.

#208 Aventurian

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:07 AM

View PostDuskWolf, on 18 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

The whole thing becomes an experiment to try and convince people that something unfun is actually fun, and on some people it's clearly working. That's... intriguing.

But why? Because thinking up creative ways to entertain your toy guinea pig is hard.

"Here, toy, a tread mill. Now let me just enjoy watching you."

So, in an ironic way, it seems that a lot of folk at ArenaNet do not actually perceive their presence at the office as work, but as play. So they structure their "work" as a play.

Which, still ironic but not actually funny, is exactly how they advertise their job positions:

What we offer:

Fantastic game room filled with ping pong tables, foosball, XBOX’s, PS3’s, Wii and more
Amazing office complex that is filled with GuildWars2 artwork

(Cue "The Walking Dead" episode: "We are the walking dead.")

They did not build a toy for us. We are their toys. Which also explains why they can throw away stuff so fast: they never really worked to achieve it. It's just a game for them, i.e. the development process is a game.

However, a wise man once said:

Business is war in a sense that the casualties are real.

Edited by Aventurian, 18 November 2012 - 12:09 AM.


#209 DuskWolf

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:23 AM

Okay, so I did want to add in something else, here.

I was just having a conversation with a friend. We both like ME3. A lot of why we do si that on the silver and gold difficulties, the AI can really screw you up something fierce. Why? The AI is tactically smart, because they can flank you, they can stealth, they can setup turrets and perform cooperative strategic maneuvers, they can really herd and control players. But it's also balanced because you can make enemies flail around helplessly, thus locking them down, and enemies have weakpoints. It's just fun!

GW2, we agreed, was a bit disappointing in how foes just tend to zerg at you. So I asked her what she thought of adding ME3-style AI and combat into Guild Wars 2. The response was that the combat itself would have to be sped up to allow for it, because right now things really move too slowly to allow for the on-the-fly tactics that ME3 prides itself on. So, as you can understand, that was pleasingly vindicating. It was nice to have someone else see what I perceive as a core issue with GW2.

If you speed up the combat and provide better AI for the opponents, so that your opponents can actually challenge you strategically and force you to think on the fly and cooperate with your squadmates, you have something closer to Mass Effect 3. And I'm sorry, but the combat of ME3 is superior to GW2 on every level. Anyone who's played both knows this. If you haven't had the good fortune of poking ME3's multi-player yet, please do so. It's a blast!

And this is why I mentioned speeding up combat. I know people like to rage, and lash out with their but you must want the game to be Sonic the Hedgehog and all. But if you think about it, what I've been proposing and continue to propose makes a lot of sense. GW2's combat is dull and boring right now, it's a monotonous slog, and the thing they could do to immediately make the game more fun is to speed it up. Then, in time, they could work on improving the AI so that it's actually smart, like ME3. So you'll have mobs behaving strategically, like ME3. That would be incredible.

If you need context for this, just read back to my older posts.

(I've edited this to make it easier to read and understand. Hopefully that'll alleviate some potential backlash.)

Edited by DuskWolf, 18 November 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#210 Ghostwing

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostDuskWolf, on 18 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Okay, so I did want to add in something else, here.

I was just having a conversation with a friend. We both like ME3. A lot of why we do si that on the silver and gold difficulties, the AI can really screw you up something fierce. Why? The AI is tactically smart, because they can flank you, they can stealth, they can setup turrets and perform cooperative strategic maneuvers, they can really herd and control players. But it's also balanced because you can make enemies flail around helplessly, thus locking them down, and enemies have weakpoints. It's just fun!

GW2, we agreed, was a bit disappointing in how foes just tend to zerg at you. So I asked her what she thought of adding ME3-style AI and combat into Guild Wars 2. The response was that the combat itself would have to be sped up to allow for it, because right now things really move too slowly to allow for the on-the-fly tactics that ME3 prides itself on. So, as you can understand, that was pleasingly vindicating. It was nice to have someone else see what I perceive as a core issue with GW2.

If you speed up the combat and provide better AI for the opponents, so that your opponents can actually challenge you strategically and force you to think on the fly and cooperate with your squadmates, you have something closer to Mass Effect 3. And I'm sorry, but the combat of ME3 is superior to GW2 on every level. Anyone who's played both knows this. If you haven't had the good fortune of poking ME3's multi-player yet, please do so. It's a blast!

And this is why I mentioned speeding up combat. I know people like to rage, and lash out with their but you must want the game to be Sonic the Hedgehog and all. But if you think about it, what I've been proposing and continue to propose makes a lot of sense. GW2's combat is dull and boring right now, it's a monotonous slog, and the thing they could do to immediately make the game more fun is to speed it up. Then, in time, they could work on improving the AI so that it's actually smart, like ME3. So you'll have mobs behaving strategically, like ME3. That would be incredible.

If you need context for this, just read back to my older posts.

(I've edited this to make it easier to read and understand. Hopefully that'll alleviate some potential backlash.)

Well no shit, but that's a different game altogether. I can say the Gears of War combat is better than ME3 combat, and is paced better than the ME3 combat, but I won't say ME3 should play like Gears of War. It's a different engine played at a different pace with different goals.

Or hey how about this, ME3 combat is also better than Final Fantasy's combat!

Edit: I did not read the prior posts so I have no idea whether you're being sarcastic or something. But if you aren't, then, really, what? People play Mario, GTA, Metroid, Sudoku, Minesweeper, etc, for fun. Mario doesn't need to steal cars and run over hookers to be fun.

Edited by Ghostwing, 18 November 2012 - 01:40 AM.






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