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Ascended items appear to require an insane grind...

ascended grind gear-treadmill

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#31 Bloggi

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:54 PM

The level of grind (or not) is one thing. But to feel compelled to run dungeons over and over for *near* max stat gear is not a good thing. A good number of us have no issue doing dungeons, or even running dungeons many times for tokens to get the exotics that we want. The people who don't want to run dungeons in this manner can still buy exotics over the TP or craft (with the exception of some stat combinations).

However, is it acceptable to expect *everyone* to gain ascended gear through repeated dungeon runs in order to remain 'relevant' in this game? The current monthly achievement for example, alienates the people who, for whatever reason, do not want to run dungeons and are happy with the other content that they are doing. Likewise for the WvW kills (easy enough to get, but there are also players who don't want to do WvW, for whatever reason that might be).

We should be promoting freedom of choice while still being able to stay 'relevant' to the current state of the game. Of course, exotic gear doesn't become automatically useless after ascended gear is released. Exotic stats are still exotic stats, but they become outdated to a certain extent, especially since legendaries are going to be scaled upwards again in order to match or even exceed the stats of ascended gear.

If the use of ascended gear was confined only to the new fractal dungeons then it's much less of an issue of course. And as mentioned above, if the only difference between ascended and exotic gear was just the skins, then a lot of people wouldn't even object to it at all. It boils down to how it's going to be implemented.

#32 n00854180t

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 15 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Unless I misunderstood something, Ascended items aren't THAT much better than exotics. Only marginally.  What may make them look that much better is that they don't have a standard upgrade slot, and so the stats that would have come from the upgrade are added to the base stats.  Instead the upgrade slot is used for infusions, which may only help against Agony.  If infusion provide a bunch of other stats, than it could be argued that Ascended is a full tier better.  Otherwise, I'm not sure Ascended gear is REQUIRED, unless it's for running deep into the new dungeon.  At least that was my impression.


They have 8% more stats (almost a full tier better, slightly less) than an exotic with an equivalently statted upgrade. Pretty much required :P

Quote


Since you progress through the tiers at random it's not like you will be grinding the same fractal over and over again.  You may have to run easier tiers over and over (essentially restarting the dungeon), but with so many fractals, and the randomn nature of progressing through them, the content won't be as repetitive.

You know there's only 9 of them right? You see 3 of those 9 every time. You'll see all of them pretty dang fast.

Edited by n00854180t, 15 November 2012 - 10:57 PM.


#33 Daesu

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:58 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 15 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

WoW fans want a treadmill.
GW1 fans do not.
We can see who Anet has chosen to favor.

I can tell you right now who they will favor....WoW fans as they are the ones with the thicker wallet.

Which is why GW2 has always looked more like WoW than GW1.

Edited by Daesu, 15 November 2012 - 11:03 PM.


#34 Fizzypop

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 15 November 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

There is no winning with MMO gamers.
If there is a treadmill, the game sucks cause it's a wow clone.
If there is no treadmill, the game sucks cause there is no endgame.

This is exactly why they need to figure out who they want to cater too you can't cater to everyone and yet they keep on trying...

#35 Jason Seven

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:04 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 15 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

WoW fans want a treadmill.
GW1 fans do not.
We can see who Anet has chosen to favor.
And rightfully so. After all for every GW1 player exist 6-7 WoW players. It is only logical for ArenaNet to cater to us instead of GW1 fans who want nothing to do in a MMO as it seems. It boggles my mind how someone wouldn't want a gear treadmill in their game when it is this necessary or why else do you think did ArenaNet add this system? I hope ArenaNet can stay this course and not cave in to cater to this niche crowd once more. GW2 already failed because they deviated from the original MMO formula. Grave mistake.

#36 Biz

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 15 November 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

If you look at it one way, it's akin to farming Orr for X hours to earn a legendary, although its uncertain how long it takes relatively. I'm pretty sure the hardcores will break the dungeon down to a science and run it on X difficulty in X manner using X composition. I'm starting to ask myself if this is really any different...
Sure, but, Legendaries are 100% Epeen no better then exotics that are practically thrown at you, here you have something that has better stats, is more or less required for some content and quite possibly takes ages to get. All that in a GW game.

#37 n00854180t

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostJason Seven, on 15 November 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

And rightfully so. After all for every GW1 player exist 6-7 WoW players. It is only logical for ArenaNet to cater to us instead of GW1 fans who want nothing to do in a MMO as it seems. It boggles my mind how someone wouldn't want a gear treadmill in their game when it is this necessary or why else do you think did ArenaNet add this system? I hope ArenaNet can stay this course and not cave in to cater to this niche crowd once more. GW2 already failed because they deviated from the original MMO formula. Grave mistake.

Poe's Law in action.

Also, GW2 hasn't "failed". It sold *millions* of copies to players that DON'T WANT A STUPID GEAR TREADMILL. If you love that model so much, WoW exists. Go play it and stop trying to infect every game with your lackwitted idea of content.

Edited by n00854180t, 15 November 2012 - 11:35 PM.


#38 Wordsworth

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 15 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Since you progress through the tiers at random it's not like you will be grinding the same fractal over and over again.  You may have to run easier tiers over and over (essentially restarting the dungeon), but with so many fractals, and the randomn nature of progressing through them, the content won't be as repetitive.

There aren't "so many fractals" though. There are nine (so far).

So if you're lucky(?) you can see the entire dungeon, for the most part, in 3 runs.

Edited by Wordsworth, 15 November 2012 - 11:28 PM.


#39 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

View Postn00854180t, on 15 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

They have 8% more stats (almost a full tier better, slightly less) than an exotic with an equivalently statted upgrade. Pretty much required :P

I was basing my assessment based entirely on this screenshot from the GW2 website:
Posted Image

While the primary stats are only about 4% better, the secondary stats are about 20% better (excluding the magic find).  What that means in real game terms, I don't know.  At first glance, I never saw this bump as 'must have' but I could be wrong.


View Postn00854180t, on 15 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

You know there's only 9 of them right? You see 3 of those 9 every time. You'll see all of them pretty dang fast.

I thought it was 12.  Nevertheless, my point was that you see them in a random order, so it's not like you have to run fractal 1 50 times in a row for people who haven't run the dungeon as much.  I was specifically addressing the poster I quoted, not speaking to the total number of runs you may or may not need to farm the Ascended gear.

#40 Phy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:29 PM

Insane grind? Are you being serious?

#41 Wordsworth

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 15 November 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

While the primary stats are only about 4% better, the secondary stats are about 20% better (excluding the magic find).  What that means in real game terms, I don't know.  At first glance, I never saw this bump as 'must have' but I could be wrong.

It's irrelevant how much better they are than exotics, if it's the best, it's a must have.

If ANet had released the Ascended tiers along with every other tier at the start, or even just told players that exotic was not the last tier, then no one would've spent their resources on exotics, whether it be time, money or mats.

#42 Matsy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

Great Anet, just great, thanks alot.

Edited by Matsy, 15 November 2012 - 11:32 PM.


#43 Valkaire

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

So, how do you know that the fractal capacitors are the accessories or are required to create the accessories?

Nevermind that, aren't Gifts always 500 tokens of their respective dungeon?

#44 n00854180t

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:50 PM

View PostValkaire, on 15 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

So, how do you know that the fractal capacitors are the accessories or are required to create the accessories?

I don't. That's why I mentioned both with and without them. However, it should be obvious that the Gift of Ascension can't be the only thing you need, since Mystic Forge takes 4 items. Either way, the amount of runs needed to get *just* the Gift itself is pretty insane (25 hours at the LOWEST (15mins per fractal) estimate of JUST grinding the dungeon, not counting any downtime).

Quote

Nevermind that, aren't Gifts always 500 tokens of their respective dungeon?

Yes, but those Gifts are for Legendaries, not Ascended items AND you get significantly more regular dungeon tokens per run than you do Fractal Relics (60 vs 15).

Edited by n00854180t, 15 November 2012 - 11:52 PM.


#45 Red_Falcon

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:51 PM

So did anyone figure out what it takes to get these items?

#46 Phy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

I'm serious guys, when did 25 hours become "insane"?

#47 SerDrak

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:55 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 15 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

WoW fans want a treadmill.
GW1 fans do not.
We can see who Anet has chosen to favor.

Quoted for truth. They should have just called this game something else instead of "Guild Wars 2" if there's to be a gear treadmill.

#48 Valkaire

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

This whole thing seems like people overreacting. We don't know how the rewards work, we don't know how much exactly we'll be getting per run, if they've added tokens to drop from bosses/chests, etc. How about you doomsayers just see how it pans out?

Edited by Valkaire, 16 November 2012 - 12:00 AM.


#49 n00854180t

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

View PostPhy, on 15 November 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I'm serious guys, when did 25 hours become "insane"?

25 hours of grinding the same dungeon for a single component to make ONE PIECE of gear. That's insanely grindy, or you are just being intentionally disingenuous to troll the thread.

Edited by n00854180t, 16 November 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#50 Phy

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:04 AM

I'm sorry, I thought this was an MMO, you know, the type of game that's supposed to last months, where things require time.

#51 SerDrak

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:07 AM

View PostPhy, on 16 November 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I thought this was an MMO, you know, the type of game that's supposed to last months, where things require time.

See: The original Guild Wars (No treadmill)

I've been playing for five years straight, and just last year did I receive my Obsidian armor. You can have goals for players that aren't treadmills.

Edited by SerDrak, 16 November 2012 - 12:09 AM.


#52 Uhhsam

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:08 AM

If it takes one hour to run something and you must do it 25 times, I would not call that "insane grind".  Insane grind is trying to max titles in GW1.

#53 Bryant Again

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

View PostPhy, on 16 November 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I thought this was an MMO, you know, the type of game that's supposed to last months, where things require time.

They lasted long because of timesinks, and timesinks existed because of subscription fees.

#54 n00854180t

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:13 AM

View PostPhy, on 16 November 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I thought this was an MMO, you know, the type of game that's supposed to last months, where things require time.
They have a goal for you already. They're called Legendary weapons.

Not to mention that if the only reason you play MMOs is to waste your time via moronic timesinks, WoW exists. Go play it and stop trying to dumb GW2 down to your level.

I and millions of others bought GW2 because of it's actual design principles (i.e., the game not being a simple-minded timesink), not to simply come and whine constantly for ArenaNet to change it into a shit WoW clone.

Edited by n00854180t, 16 November 2012 - 12:26 AM.


#55 Andlát

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:15 AM

Too busy with university to waste time with something I don't enjoy doing. I prefer spending my time in PvP or in WvW with my guild. I will grab the ascended gear after they implement other ways to obtain it - the stat difference is (thanks God) not big enough to make me want to spend time doing an activity I find boring . IMO the best progression is the player skill progression and his mastery with his class of choice - hence why I am more of a PvP lover. Seeing myself perform better gives me way greater satisfaction than seeing my stats go +5.

Edited by Andlát, 16 November 2012 - 12:33 AM.


#56 Tenicord

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:21 AM

People who dont like grind should not play mmoRPGs.. it's really that simple. Sorry but A.net needs more of a grind to sustain itself as an MMO. GW1 didn't because it wasn't really an MMO and had henchmen and heroes ect... but a real mmo.. you HAVE to have grind, it keeps people motivated and makes them feel like they can continue to progress. People are getting bored and leaving the game, A.Net recognized this hence the new items.

#57 Phy

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:26 AM

View Postn00854180t, on 16 November 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

They have a goal for you already. They're called Legendary weapons.

Not to mention that if the only reason you play MMOs is to waste your time via moronic timesinks, WoW exists. Go play it and stop trying to dumb GW2 down to your level.

I and millions of others bought GW2 because of it's actual design principles (i.e., the game not a simple-minded timesink), not to simply come and whine constantly for ArenaNet to change it into a shit WoW clone.
How is bitching about "the insane grind of 20+ hours" not an effort to dumb down the game? This game needs a timesink even more than WOW does, since WOW can just release a new tier and sit on their ass for 3 months. If GW2 is truly avoiding the gear grind then they need something to keep people around.

#58 Scubazombeh

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:27 AM

Might as well hand you everything on your first run

#59 n00854180t

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostPhy, on 16 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

If GW2 is truly avoiding the gear grind then they need something to keep people around.

It's called cosmetic progression, y'know, the thing they sold millions of people the game on.

Just because you can't comprehend how a game can exist without being a verbatim copy of WoW doesn't mean it's impossible.

#60 Absintheminded

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

A few people watch the manifesto and think they no longer need to work for gear? Seriously, those complaining about getting these pieces of gear, how much GW1 did you play? How many sets of Prestige armor did you get? And how different do you really think the ascended gear is?





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