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Ascended items appear to require an insane grind...

ascended grind gear-treadmill

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#301 DoctorDyna

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostAsudementio, on 19 November 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

It doesn't mean anything of the sort- such speculation is based on the premise that progression paths are make or break designs for players.

I'm sorry, what? I read that 5 times and I can't understand how what you said relates even slightly to what I said. Did you mean to quote someone else?

#302 Kymeric

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

They could have taken a better shot at satisfying both player types.

Ascended gear could have had infusions that increased Agony mitigation, with absolutely no increase in core stats over Exotic.

Then the dungeon runners who want a treadmill could happily grind out Agony mitigation while the rest of us went about the rest of the game without concern that we will need to hop on that treadmill or forever wonder if that Red Invader who flattened us did it through skill or better gear.

Why, ArenaNet?  Why?

#303 Asudementio

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

View PostDoctorDyna, on 19 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

I'm sorry, what? I read that 5 times and I can't understand how what you said relates even slightly to what I said. Did you mean to quote someone else?

What you said was that the addition of ascended items will cause a hemoragging of the playerbase as it betrays the initial game design as far as gear progression goes. You can't assume that that will be the result as such an assumption is based on that a single path of progression (ascended gear to progress deeper into the fractal dungeons) is an issue that effects a large enough group of players to such a degree that they will quite. It is shameless speculation that doesn't seem likely.

#304 Hyper Hypno Hustler

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostAsudementio, on 19 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

What you said was that the addition of ascended items will cause a hemoragging of the playerbase as it betrays the initial game design as far as gear progression goes. You can't assume that that will be the result as such an assumption is based on that a single path of progression (ascended gear to progress deeper into the fractal dungeons) is an issue that effects a large enough group of players to such a degree that they will quite. It is shameless speculation that doesn't seem likely.

I agree it is unlikely that a large group of people will truly be negatively affected by this enough to quit, but that thought should work the other way around.  Is this gear really going to be attractive to enough people to warrant its existence in the first place?  How many people are playing GW2 again because of ascended gear?  I don't have any proof, but I'd wager it isn't a lot.

#305 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostAsudementio, on 19 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

What you said was that the addition of ascended items will cause a hemoragging of the playerbase as it betrays the initial game design as far as gear progression goes. You can't assume that that will be the result as such an assumption is based on that a single path of progression (ascended gear to progress deeper into the fractal dungeons) is an issue that effects a large enough group of players to such a degree that they will quite. It is shameless speculation that doesn't seem likely.

Except Ascended gear doesn't just provide an infusion slot. It also has higher stats than exotics. If Arenanet just wanted to please the dungeon divers, they could have added Ascended items with just the infusion mechanic.

Or, they could have raised named exotic pieces to Ascended tier so that it doesn't feel like just another exotic but have exotic and ascended gear have infusion slots (and make the infusions harder to get).

There is a lot Arenanet could have done without pulling a 180 by introducing a gear treadmill for highest stat gear (after saying that highest stat would be easy for casual player to get).

Even though you don't NEED highest stat gear to play all parts of the game, it certainly goes up against what they said before about player skill being a determining factor and not player time (I'm looking at this line from a WvW perspective).

#306 Var

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 19 November 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Except Ascended gear doesn't just provide an infusion slot. It also has higher stats than exotics. If Arenanet just wanted to please the dungeon divers, they could have added Ascended items with just the infusion mechanic.

The issue or lack there of one, is that Ascended Gear contributes only marginally (if at all) in anything sub-80. That miniscule stat increase is nigh-irrelevant in any of the other content due to the down scaling and the only places it will have an effect are:
- PvE: Arah & Orr, and SSC
- WvW

On the PvE side of things, considering that people had no problems running around in greens and yellows, should have no problem now running around in exotics (which have become even easier to acquire to the point where they are almost literally being given to you at 80). There was a phase shift from green/yellow vs. full exotic to yellow/purple vs. (currently all of three pieces) full ascended. So long as the content has no checks (much as Fractal has no checks, you can run the first 6 levels in green MF gear), then no one is "losing" out on content because of this gear. The only thing lost is going deeper and deeper for better and better rewards... but that opens up the can of wurms for effort vs. reward.

On the WvW side, issues are larger but currently non-starters. A back piece and two rings aren't suddenly going to break a large team format. With increased rewards (particularly in the badges department) and, with a timely introduction of WvW Ascended, the problems should be largely alleviated, people will be rewarded for WvWing, and (for once) WvW might give people a sense of progression (though it will certainly need more).

Why did they add this tier? To be honest I can see the reasoning. Exotic Gear didn't have much of a "special" feel to it and could be bought, so any and all effort behind it was more or less vapor. Ascended is account bound for the key material, so you cannot just "buy" it and, in the WvW scenario, you cannot buy badges either. Probably, what they are/were going for was to make a system akin to the WvW system of badge earning: play the format, earn the special gear. If they hadn't added some "increase" to the Ascended, it would have just felt irrelevant so they buffed the stats.

Note: I'm not trying to justify, just rationalize.

Edited by Var, 19 November 2012 - 11:49 PM.


#307 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:07 AM

View PostVar, on 19 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:


On the WvW side, issues are larger but currently non-starters. A back piece and two rings aren't suddenly going to break a large team format. With increased rewards (particularly in the badges department) and, with a timely introduction of WvW Ascended, the problems should be largely alleviated, people will be rewarded for WvWing, and (for once) WvW might give people a sense of progression (though it will certainly need more).

Why did they add this tier? To be honest I can see the reasoning. Exotic Gear didn't have much of a "special" feel to it and could be bought, so any and all effort behind it was more or less vapor. Ascended is account bound for the key material, so you cannot just "buy" it and, in the WvW scenario, you cannot buy badges either. Probably, what they are/were going for was to make a system akin to the WvW system of badge earning: play the format, earn the special gear. If they hadn't added some "increase" to the Ascended, it would have just felt irrelevant so they buffed the stats.

Note: I'm not trying to justify, just rationalize.

It's preciesly the world vs world that has me worried. And they aren't stopping at a back piece and two rings, they've said they are going to add full sets of armor. There is a lot more arenanet could have done to make ascendant gear please people in both camps. That is what is frustrating.

#308 Phy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:25 AM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 20 November 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

It's preciesly the world vs world that has me worried. And they aren't stopping at a back piece and two rings, they've said they are going to add full sets of armor. There is a lot more arenanet could have done to make ascendant gear please people in both camps. That is what is frustrating.

Quote

Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.
Finally we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the upcoming content, and we will ensure we share our thoughts with you on the experiences we share in the Lost Shores."
Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director
You mean like this?

Edited by Phy, 20 November 2012 - 01:25 AM.


#309 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:38 AM

View PostPhy, on 20 November 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

You mean like this?

You think its going to take any less grind? Regardless of where you do it...

#310 Phy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:43 AM

Oh, but if the grind is in your beloved WvW, would you guys bitch as much?

#311 AiponGkooja

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:45 AM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 20 November 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

You think its going to take any less grind? Regardless of where you do it...

Well I guess you can refuse to have fun while doing the things you would otherwise enjoy doing, until you have "max" gear again.  Seems like a reasonable thing to do.

#312 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:48 AM

View PostPhy, on 20 November 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Oh, but if the grind is in your beloved WvW, would you guys bitch as much?

Yes. It just means lower level players or players who just entered WvW would still have a huge gap to clear before they are at peak performance.

View PostAiponGkooja, on 20 November 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

Well I guess you can refuse to have fun while doing the things you would otherwise enjoy doing, until you have "max" gear again.  Seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Doesn't matter how much fun I have doing it. It's still a huge barrier to entry. Just one more tier of stats under leveled players (or even players who just dinged 80) have to deal with. A half tier upgrade in armor is nothing to scoff at, especially when multiplied by all the people in the server.

#313 AiponGkooja

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:03 AM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 20 November 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Yes. It just means lower level players or players who just entered WvW would still have a huge gap to clear before they are at peak performance.



Doesn't matter how much fun I have doing it. It's still a huge barrier to entry. Just one more tier of stats under leveled players (or even players who just dinged 80) have to deal with. A half tier upgrade in armor is nothing to scoff at, especially when multiplied by all the people in the server.

Well if all the people in the server are going to have it, I don't see the problem.

But anyway, you seem like the kind of person that hates it when non-80's join his WvW matches.  So, good on ya.

Interesting part is, they're probably having fun even when they're losing, whereas you can't even have fun when you're winning if you know your stats are 5-10% less than some other peoples'.

You could try sPvP.  It's for competitive play.  The new gear won't affect that.

#314 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:12 AM

View PostAiponGkooja, on 20 November 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Well if all the people in the server are going to have it, I don't see the problem.

But anyway, you seem like the kind of person that hates it when non-80's join his WvW matches.  So, good on ya.

Interesting part is, they're probably having fun even when they're losing, whereas you can't even have fun when you're winning if you know your stats are 5-10% less than some other peoples'.

You could try sPvP.  It's for competitive play.  The new gear won't affect that.

Uhm no? I'm fine with level non levels 80s, or less then exotic 80s playing WvW. It's just going to be yet another hurdle for them to jump over when already fully geared exotics can smash them. The more stepping stones you put in place, the less fun its going to be for lower level players.

You guys can like Ascended gear all you want in PvE. Doesn't mean you have to stand up for it in WvW. Tiers of armor that have increased stats and requires tons of grind to get has no place in any form of PvP. Just another barrier to entry. Not sure how this is arguable.

And I'll skip out on sPvP. Nothing interesting about Hero Battles v 2.0

#315 AiponGkooja

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:19 AM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 20 November 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Uhm no? I'm fine with level non levels 80s, or less then exotic 80s playing WvW. It's just going to be yet another hurdle for them to jump over when already fully geared exotics can smash them. The more stepping stones you put in place, the less fun its going to be for lower level players.

You guys can like Ascended gear all you want in PvE. Doesn't mean you have to stand up for it in WvW. Tiers of armor that have increased stats and requires tons of grind to get has no place in any form of PvP. Just another barrier to entry. Not sure how this is arguable.

And I'll skip out on sPvP. Nothing interesting about Hero Battles v 2.0

I run around with mismatched gear from level 71-80 and from fine to exotic.  I have far more than a 10% deficit on stats compared to exotics.  By your logic I should be completely ineffective in WvW.  That is not the case, so I do not understand your hypothetical disaster scenario.

#316 Red_Falcon

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:24 AM

Fun fact: at release people were making these same complaints "OMG exotic people will one shot you and getting exotics is too hard!!1one".
Then the TP was filled with them and everyone started wearing exotics bought from it.
It won't be any different. People will craft/find ascended gear and sell it on the TP. Others will buy it. Cryers will stop crying.

It's a bit boring that every time some new items get released we get this mandatory "week of crying" on the forums.

#317 Phy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:29 AM

People will cry doom and gloom with every update, regardless of how it actually impacts the game.

#318 rick1027

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:30 AM

View PostAbsintheminded, on 16 November 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

A few people watch the manifesto and think they no longer need to work for gear? Seriously, those complaining about getting these pieces of gear, how much GW1 did you play? How many sets of Prestige armor did you get? And how different do you really think the ascended gear is?
7 years  plus played beta til guild wars came out logged in twice a week most of those years 7 days a week.bought stuff via cash shop regularly. i bought every set  for hom. but used one of the cheaper ones cause i liked the looks they all had same stats. ascended is another tier of armor id have no problem if they were exotics stats just harder to get. i love guild wars 2

#319 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:41 AM

View PostAiponGkooja, on 20 November 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

I run around with mismatched gear from level 71-80 and from fine to exotic.  I have far more than a 10% deficit on stats compared to exotics.  By your logic I should be completely ineffective in WvW.  That is not the case, so I do not understand your hypothetical disaster scenario.

You are at a disadvantage. There are players running around at even more of a disadvantage. I didn't say completely ineffective, but every tier of armor just makes it that much easier to stomp upscaled players. That is fact. Again, not sure how you can argue otherwise.

Exactly what benefit does adding another tier of stats to the game bring? Some form of "progression"? The point I'm arguing is that stats were not needed for progression, there are plenty of other things they could have done that is a) more interesting, and B) has no impact on WvW. Plus stats are unimaginative. Plus stats go against what Anet has done for 7+ years in GW1. Plus stats goes against what Anet said would happen in GW2. Ascendant armor had potential, but they went about it in a bad way (thus all the shit that is going on in the forums about it).

But hey, polarizing to such drastic degrees is always a good thing, right?

#320 Kraken

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:56 AM

Im an 100% WvW player, and play some 8 hours a day. Every day.

For me this patch is the end of a dream.

A dream of no grinding and a dream that, at last, one main-stream mmo would give priority to PVP.

The metaphor would be: The developers of the game have inserted a cancer. The game is ill, and it will die slowly as the treadmill advances in its implementation. Some of us may quit before the pain starts. Others will hold a bit more and will watch in first person how   another fantastic mmo advances to its inevitable death.

Personally I give the game some 2 weeks to react. After this "credit time" I predict WvW players will start quitting massively. It will be no return point for some of us, and imho for this great game.

#321 AiponGkooja

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:04 AM

View PostKraken, on 20 November 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

...

Personally I give the game some 2 weeks to react. After this "credit time" I predict WvW players will start quitting massively. It will be no return point for some of us, and imho for this great game.

I think that started happening a while back...

#322 Resolve

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:06 AM

At this point it looks like too much grind. 250 T6 for the base item and then another 100 T6 and 250 ecto to infuse that for the agony resistance. And there's the infusion slot that grants both stats. Atm they are only +5 but they are bringing out higher levels in the future.

lt would be fine if it just granted +agony but eh, if that's the direction they want to take then good luck.

#323 asbasb

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:26 AM

Yep, that's their intended goal. They want to slow down people from getting legendaries, so they invented a gap, filled it with grind, and gave it slightly higher stats make gearing up mandatory. Disgraceful.

#324 Phy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:50 AM

View Postasbasb, on 20 November 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Yep, that's their intended goal. They want to slow down people from getting legendaries, so they invented a gap, filled it with grind, and gave it slightly higher stats make gearing up mandatory. Disgraceful.
You aren't required to do any of the new content for a legendary, making this a terrible argument.

#325 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 20 November 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Fun fact: at release people were making these same complaints "OMG exotic people will one shot you and getting exotics is too hard!!1one".
Then the TP was filled with them and everyone started wearing exotics bought from it.
It won't be any different. People will craft/find ascended gear and sell it on the TP. Others will buy it. Cryers will stop crying.

It's a bit boring that every time some new items get released we get this mandatory "week of crying" on the forums.
Except ascended stuff is not something you can sell, it's account bound ;) Personal farm, you have to do fractals trillion times, or you're out ;)

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 November 2012 - 04:24 AM.


#326 pswendel

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:36 AM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 20 November 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Except ascended stuff is not something you can sell, it's account bound ;) Personal farm, you have to do fractals trillion times, or you're out ;)

currently it's a ring and a back piece. They have plans to release it into other modes of acquisition. I'll link the quote if people hem and haw at my post.

#327 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:37 AM

And when they said they will be boe,this is my post and the reason i quoted him, talking about everyone will have his one and buy/sell, enjoy , they are so cheap to craft hehe :D, considering the mats you find are account bound not sellable ;)
You didn't say nothing new or a reason to quote me. Ye, just a different way to farm "some mats" not fractals, amen. Maybe.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 November 2012 - 04:45 AM.


#328 asbasb

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:39 AM

View PostPhy, on 20 November 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

You aren't required to do any of the new content for a legendary, making this a terrible argument.
I'm not required to play the game if I don't want to. Not a great rebuttal either, huh?
If I had known this game would make me chase stats through infusion tiers)and grind to gear up with BIS gear, I would've never bought it.

#329 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:45 AM

View Postasbasb, on 20 November 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

I'm not required to play the game if I don't want to. Not a great rebuttal either, huh?
If I had known this game would make me chase stats through infusion tiers)and grind to gear up with BIS gear, I would've never bought it.
If you did, and all of us too, you would have read barely someone talking about it, end of the list of mmo interests ranked next to FFXIV online haha (aka fail) , add the anet attitude releasing the same trash new patches and content and now was dead yet with server closed begging people to register with a free account :D Smart PR huh

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 November 2012 - 05:48 AM.


#330 karekiz

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:58 AM

View PostZippor, on 19 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Might be, I haven't seen any encounter to force agony on you except Jade Maw. But even then, immunity skills can negate the Agony damage. We'll see how forcefully it will be applied on the higher levels, but those levels are something many don't have interest in.

This is totally false - ALL bosses apply agony on 10+.  Yes it WILL down you if you do not heal through it.

The Asura applies agony after golems phase shift - The spirit tree in swamp applies Agony at roughly 70% and somewhere else during the fight - Can't recall for charr boss (the ones I fought).

Can you beat it with no Agony?  If your really lucky on heals sure, but Agony was downing 3/5 players in our group.  Wanna know why the others weren't getting downed as fast?  Resistance already on gear.  Thankfully I got an ascended ring on my first Agony run.....





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