438 replies to this topic

[Phy]

n00854180t, on 16 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

It's called cosmetic progression, y'know, the thing they sold millions of people the game on.

Just because you can't comprehend how a game can exist without being a verbatim copy of WoW doesn't mean it's impossible.

And if they just hand you these items after 5 hours of "grinding" then whet else is there? There seems to be a misunderstanding of what I'm arguing about. I never once said they needed to add stronger gear, I'm arguing against the idea that 20+ hours for an item is "insane".

[n00854180t]

Phy, on 16 November 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

And if they just hand you these items after 5 hours of "grinding" then whet else is there? There seems to be a misunderstanding of what I'm arguing about. I never once said they needed to add stronger gear, I'm arguing against the idea that 20+ hours for an item is "insane".

Your inability to understand that MMOs can exist without anything other than inane time sinks does not equate to reality.

If you are so against the idea of the game being about anything other than mindlessly wasting your time, go back to WoW.

Edited by n00854180t, 16 November 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Al Shamari, on 15 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

You get 5 Fractal Relics for the first run I believe, chances are that with the increasing difficulty comes increased rewards...

blindude, on 15 November 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

how do you know it will be only x2 and why would you need to repeat the lower difficulty stages to farm relics for the rest f the pieces.I believe good players will have this new gear tier in no time as well..which makes me wonder what was the point of it being introduced in the first place..

I think i'm able to make things clear, just based on what the game is:

Gift of Ascension: item require to create new legendaries with a crapload of mats. Even used to craft ascension set piece with less mats. Core mat for ascension set and very special weapons.

Obsidian shard: component needed crafting ascension pieces. 250 of them , no doubt.

Dessa's experiment journal: middle component for create new legendaries, omni ascended items. Or just the back piece.

Infusions: simple is for aggressive or defensive, versatile is for omni set.

Prototype: 5 of them. Guess to create 5 different kind of items. Probably used to craft Omni. Or more simple, the 5 kind of legendary weapons we can wear.

We will have more info soon, but i think i'm right on most. Now adds new mystic forge recipes mixing all those mats in the cauldron, plus trillion lodestone ectos etc. and here you go with an uber grind as ever. Leading to the ubergrind/elitism we gw2 players so much hate.

Talking about drop rate: DR kicks So keep farming low levels abusing of the sytem, kicking and reinviting lower levels, simply doesn't work. Example: you do path 1 (let's call them paths) 5 fractals. path 2, 5 fractals. path 3, 5 fractals. Youre now promoted to next level. Kick one, invite a lower. path 1: 2/1 fractals. path 2: 2/1 fractals. Path 3 : 2/1 fractals. Do it again with a low level? 0 fractals.

Forget your easymode fractal farm. And btw, even if DR doesn't tick, enjoy 5 fractal per run, when you need THOUSAND of them

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 16 November 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[Phy]

n00854180t, on 16 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Your inability to understand that MMOs can exist without anything other than inane time sinks does not equate to reality.

If you are so against the idea of the game being about anything other than mindlessly wasting your time, go back to WoW.

What does WOW have anything to do with this? And since when did MMORPG not have inane timesinks? Do you understand what this genre is about?

[Impmon]

n00854180t, on 15 November 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

http://guildwars2hub...ic-merchant.png

The Gift of Ascension requires 500 Fractal Relics. You get 5 Fractal Relics per fractal (15 for a full run of 3).

Ignoring the possibility that the Ascended items might require the exotic accessory shown there (1350 Fractal Relics), the Gift *alone* would require 34 full runs of the dungeon to obtain.

For comparison, it takes 1380 dungeon tokens to buy a *full set* of Exotic dungeon gear, or 21 explorable mode runs.

One Ascended item (assuming it uses the Gift of Ascension) will take 13 more runs than obtaining an entire exotic dungeon set. If it requires the exotic trinket as well, it would be 103 more runs than a full exotic dungeon set.

Anyone else think that's a little insane, especially considering that Ascended items are essentially required due to being almost a full tier better than exotics with equivalent upgrades?

thats not bad.   If you wanted to get all the 42k karma armor in cursed shore you have to farm the DE's just as much and most of you already have so why complain.

[Var]

25 hours for depth 1?

If this scales in any reasonable fashion, and if what I've heard is to be believed, you won't even reach Ascended/Infusion requirements until at least depth 5 and probably not even feel an issue until depth 10, you're probably not even looking at much more of a time investment than what it took to farm up a piece of Orr armor if you do this at reasonable difficulties. There's also the question of what do the fractal-set bosses drop. You get 5 per fractal (per some multiplier for depth) and then something likely is also awarded for the boss itself. If they've taken the same approach as the dungeons, then you're probably also looking at a chance of seeing tokens drop from mobs/bosses as well as the gear itself dropping from the bosses.

[Runkleford]

FoxBat, on 15 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

WoW fans want a treadmill.
GW1 fans do not.
We can see who Anet has chosen to favor.

Yep. The thing is that there are a billion MMOs with WoW style treadmills out there already, we don't need yet another gear treadmill MMO.

[Impmon]

People who complain about a grind should go back in time to everquest & checkout the first "epic" weapons they added or just random quests in general.

You'd require rare drops from rare spawning npc's, rare as in once every 2 weeks,  or an item from the boss of a raid zone that dropped rarely when 40 other people all wanted it to, and that was just one of the rares you had to hand in and poofed to create your "epic" which at first had stats that were crappier then what you handed in.

[Matsy]

The grind would be OK if it was cosmetic, but its not.

[Sheepski]

Zedabi, on 15 November 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Fractal Shards scale depending on difficulty level.

So let's say it goes up by 5 for every difficulty level. According to Elixabeth, it seems Agony won't take effect until difficulty level 5:

Difficulty Level 1: 15
Difficulty Level 2: 30
Difficulty Level 3: 45
Difficulty Level 4: 60
Difficulty Level 5: 75

Total saved: 225

That's almost half way there just getting to level 5 (25 fractals), assuming it scales up 5 every time. However, it could also easily increase by a larger amount.

This is also not taking into consideration the Special Bosses at levels 2 and 4, which are also likely to award Shards, and they might award extra shards for the first set of Fractals completed each day (much like Dungeon runs).

Again, however, this is all speculation.

I'd say wait and see before complaining about a grind that might not even be there. For all we know, you might have enough Shards to get a Gift by the time you reach level 5.

n00854180t, on 15 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume the higher difficulty will reward that many more above the base, honestly. Not to mention the Ascended items are supposed to fill the "time gap" between Exotics and Legendaries, so if they're really giving you that many more Fractal Relics per run, then it doesn't serve the intended purpose.

Plus, 5 cycles is at the minimum 3 hours and 45 minutes, and I guess that wouldn't include the 2 mega boss fights. Maximum obviously 7.5 hours or so... that's a lot of grinding just to hit a higher reward rate (If any exists).

[Espritdumort]

We'll have to wait and see how the rewards really turn out.

But...

Exotic stat armor can be acquired through various means: crafting, karma, dungeon tokens, or PvP.

Of those methods to acquire Exotic stat armor, crafting requires materials which you can purchase or gather yourself.  You can earn gold and acquire materials all over the game.  

Karma is acquired through events and daily/monthly achievements.  You can earn karma all over the game.

PvP and Dungeon exotic skins are more grindy but you already have two easy methods to acquire exotic stats, dungeon/PvP armor is more for appearance.

Ascended items, however, appear to require high amounts of grind of one specific area, the 9 random mini dungeons.  Anet has said you would be able to craft or Mystic Forge the items, but those methods likely will require items from the dungeon (Gift of Ascension).

Even in GW1, skins could be acquired through gold (platinum) alone (and a short run to FoW).

Fractal tokens appear to be account bound.  So for the short (more likely, long) term, until Anet adds crafting recipes, you are forced to do a dungeon to acquire better gear, not just a fancy skin.

But let's just wait and see first, before storming Anet with torches and pitchforks.  After all, they love to get us all worked up, teasing us with partial information.

Edited by Espritdumort, 16 November 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

If i may suggest, test if DR kicks using a low level guy every time you're promoted to a higher level. Could be the exploit wave most will abuse until fixed. LFM fractal farm lower than lv. x

[Runkleford]

Scubazombeh, on 16 November 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Might as well hand you everything on your first run

Might as well hand you everything on your billionenth run. See I can play strawman too.

[caballo_oscuro]

FiachSidhe, on 15 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Different people whine about different things. Or are you the only person not linked to the omniversal uni-mind?

how do you get linked to the omniversal uni-mind? is it subscription based? what are the benefits? does it have cats? can i hook it to the internet if i get one?

[Darkobra]

RaoulDukeHST, on 15 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

yeah,you should get it in 15 minutes.Or better,just log in and find it in the mailbox!

I was... I was looking for the point of that there... Are you actually saying you don't think there's middle-ground? Or are you another casual that thinks time invested is the same as skill?

[Reason on Cooldown]

Espritdumort, on 16 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

.....You can earn gold and acquire materials all over the game......

.....Ascended items, however, appear to require high amounts of grind of one specific area, the 9 random mini dungeons......

If this proves to be accurate, I think it is one of the more valid points I've seen made.

Espritdumort, on 16 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

But let's just wait and see first, before storming Anet with torches and pitchforks.  After all, they love to get us all worked up, teasing us with partial information.

Stop with all your reason and logic!!!  That be witchcraft!!!

[Jason Seven]

n00854180t, on 15 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Poe's Law in action.

Also, GW2 hasn't "failed". It sold *millions* of copies to players that DON'T WANT A STUPID GEAR TREADMILL. If you love that model so much, WoW exists. Go play it and stop trying to infect every game with your lackwitted idea of content.

Poe's Law? These are my views on things, it doesn't mean they are an overexaggarated satire attempt just because you don't share them. GW2 did fail the moment they released it without sufficient content to keep players busy. Hence why they now correct this mistake that cost them millions of players. I do play World of Warcraft, we are currently working on Challenge Modes of the new instances. But most of my friends stem from the game Aion, which is even better than WoW. I am not trying to infect GW2 nor is anyone else who wants a gear treadmill. It is a simple concept that every single MMORPG needs, part of its very foundation if you will. If anything players like me are merely trying to help ArenaNet understand this and guide them in the right direction so they can make a game that people want instead of whatever Guild Wars 2 tried to be.

Edited by Jason Seven, 16 November 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[FiachSidhe]

Phy, on 16 November 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I thought this was an MMO, you know, the type of game that's supposed to last months, where things require time.

Yeah but I'd like to do something other than the same dungeon over and over just to get one item. when will developers of mmos learn that the gear treadmill doesn't have to be the only form of end game content?

[Fizzypop]

Jason Seven, on 15 November 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

And rightfully so. After all for every GW1 player exist 6-7 WoW players. It is only logical for ArenaNet to cater to us instead of GW1 fans who want nothing to do in a MMO as it seems. It boggles my mind how someone wouldn't want a gear treadmill in their game when it is this necessary or why else do you think did ArenaNet add this system? I hope ArenaNet can stay this course and not cave in to cater to this niche crowd once more. GW2 already failed because they deviated from the original MMO formula. Grave mistake.

Except wow players will go back to wow because wow has YEARS of development and does a much better job than GW2. Why wouldn't they go back? Way more things to do to keep them happy! So no, they are a TERRIBLE base to pull from since they aren't going to stick. Anet? Isn't going to even put a DENT in blizz' player base. Someone else already tried it and you know what happened? Fail. Blizz knows how to keep their customers that's why they have millions of them. Anet needs to realize they cannot compete with that. So becoming a wow clone isn't going to do shit. They need to consider an untapped market. That means the casual, the non-mmo players, and the GW1 players. I can't be the only person who wants an mmo with depth and skill. This is possible, but not if they keep trying to tap into a market that ISN'T going to stay. >.>

Edited by Fizzypop, 16 November 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[n00854180t]

Jason Seven, on 16 November 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

[snip]

More classic Poe's Law, including the first sentence referring to it. It's so moronic and backwards that it's nigh impossible to tell if this guy is serious.

Fizzypop, on 16 November 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Except wow players will go back to wow because wow has YEARS of development and does a much better job than GW2. Why wouldn't they go back? Way more things to do to keep them happy! So no, they are a TERRIBLE base to pull from since they aren't going to stick. Anet? Isn't going to even put a DENT in blizz' player base. Someone else already tried it and you know what happened? Fail. Blizz knows how to keep their customers that's why they have millions of them. Anet needs to realize they cannot compete with that. So becoming a wow clone isn't going to do shit. They need to consider an untapped market. That means the casual, the non-mmo players, and the GW1 players. I can't be the only person who wants an mmo with depth and skill. This is possible, but not if they keep trying to tap into a market that ISN'T going to stay. >.>

This. Any person that seriously wants WoW's gameplay probably already went back, or even if they didn't they'll be 1) whining for another gear tier, which will alienate every person that actually bought the game on the premises ArenaNet designed it for or 2) will just go back to WoW anyway.

MMOs that don't tap into a non-WoW market these days are known as failures across the board.

[pswendel]

FiachSidhe, on 16 November 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

Yeah but I'd like to do something other than the same dungeon over and over just to get one item. when will developers of mmos learn that the gear treadmill doesn't have to be the only form of end game content?

Best thing about these threads is there are a lot of people that think what's been done is not the best thing to do, but offer no alternative.

I'm no expert, call me crazy - but maybe, maybe - an idea would help pave the way to dreams.

[Corvindi]

pswendel, on 16 November 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Best thing about these threads is there are a lot of people that think what's been done is not the best thing to do, but offer no alternative.

I'm no expert, call me crazy - but maybe, maybe - an idea would help pave the way to dreams.

Several people have suggested that, if there must be a grind beyond exotics that isn't for cosmetic purposes only, then the grind should be doable through WvW, Karma farming, and crafting as well as through dungeons.  This is a reasonable compromise between those who want stat progression and those who don't.

Although admittedly it still makes life tougher for people with less time to play than their friends, since they'll need to catch up to do the latest content.

Another suggestion for WvW was to make the badge gear equivalent to Ascended or to copy the sPvP equalization of gear over to WvW so that PvP isn't affected by new gear tiers.

[Wordsworth]

I need a refund on the exotics I've acquired.

[vbleep]

Goojilla, on 15 November 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

So have anyone of us here even tried out the Fractal of the Mists yet? Didn't think so. So how can you claim that ascended items require an insane grind?

I'm sorry. I know this is so off topic but this is something that I've been seeing over and over all over the Internet for some time now.  Yes, I'm the grammar police and I can't take it any longer or I will just explode if I don't correct it whenever I see it.  (What are they teaching in schools these days?)

Correct grammar would be, "Has any one of us..."  It is has, not have,because it relates to any one of us (singular, not plural).

ETA: Yes, I know I'm a weirdo.

Edited by vbleep, 16 November 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[Expherious]

Sounds a lot to me like people complaining about the challenge. But then again I guess Anet can't make everyone happy. I think everyone is just focusing on the negative.

[Wordsworth]

Expherious, on 16 November 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Sounds a lot to me like people complaining about the challenge. But then again I guess Anet can't make everyone happy. I think everyone is just focusing on the negative.

Not even. The point is that the update should've been just challenge. A new dungeon, new zone, new cosmetics. Not new stats. Apparently ANet didn't believe the update would succeed without stat incentive.

[RabidusIncendia]

Gilles VI, on 15 November 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

First everybody whines dungeons are to hardcore, now they whine dungeons are to easy and there is no end-game, and now when Anet adds "end-game" like in other MMO's you whine again??

Dear god how can separate people all seem to come up with the same idea that Guru is an entire forum of sockpuppets that are all mouthing one opinion.

IT WAS DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Tenicord, on 16 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

People who dont like grind should not play mmoRPGs.. it's really that simple. Sorry but A.net needs more of a grind to sustain itself as an MMO. GW1 didn't because it wasn't really an MMO and had henchmen and heroes ect... but a real mmo.. you HAVE to have grind, it keeps people motivated and makes them feel like they can continue to progress. People are getting bored and leaving the game, A.Net recognized this hence the new items.

GW1 has proven that you don't need to have a system where you're forced to one dungeon in a game for more time than it takes to read 100 books, or several college textbooks, every few months.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 16 November 2012 - 03:52 AM.

[NuclearDonut]

I would take a bunch of new armor models over some dumb ring with cool stats. What happened to the cosmetics philosophy? They haven't added a full armor set since launch, and that makes me a sad panda. Seriously screw these new tier gear. I would gladly do that sort of grind for some shiny new armor, but not for +2 more precision.

[Manzana]

NuclearDonut, on 16 November 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

I would take a bunch of new armor models over some dumb ring with cool stats. What happened to the cosmetics philosophy? They haven't added a full armor set since launch, and that makes me a sad panda. Seriously screw these new tier gear. I would gladly do that sort of grind for some shiny new armor, but not for +2 more precision.

Two months in, and all we get are new game modes, a new map, and rings.  Ugh, dropping the ball on us here Anet.  Where is that very specific skin that I wanted to see? D:<

[Jason Seven]

Fizzypop, on 16 November 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Except wow players will go back to wow because wow has YEARS of development and does a much better job than GW2. Why wouldn't they go back? Way more things to do to keep them happy! So no, they are a TERRIBLE base to pull from since they aren't going to stick. Anet? Isn't going to even put a DENT in blizz' player base. Someone else already tried it and you know what happened? Fail. Blizz knows how to keep their customers that's why they have millions of them. Anet needs to realize they cannot compete with that. So becoming a wow clone isn't going to do shit. They need to consider an untapped market. That means the casual, the non-mmo players, and the GW1 players. I can't be the only person who wants an mmo with depth and skill. This is possible, but not if they keep trying to tap into a market that ISN'T going to stay. >.>

I agree. WoW players will most likely always go back to WoW as will Aion players to Aion, Rift players to Rift and TOR players to TOR etc. This is due to the game they previously played offering a lot more of what they want. This also means that their previous game succeeded in making players want to play, something Guild Wars 2 didn't accomplish so far or at least only to a very, very minuscule degree. ArenaNet as well as every other company with an MMORPG has to compete with Blizzard, whether they like it or not. It's possible for them to do so, they've had enough time to gather data and are now executing measures in order to draw the masses to them instead of driving them away. Casuals, non-MMO players, those are both drawn much more towards World of Warcraft just because it has years of development which refined it to nigh perfection. While you are certainly not the only person who wants an MMO with depth and skill being its main focus, having these features isn't going to get you anywhere at all. There needs to be an incentive for people to keep playing. This incentive is known as mandatory grinding, gear treadmills and to a degree also gear gating.

n00854180t, on 16 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

More classic Poe's Law, including the first sentence referring to it. It's so moronic and backwards that it's nigh impossible to tell if this guy is serious.

Wow... you're telling me just because I am able to look up Poe's Law means that my views are all nothing but satiric? Does this mean anyone who doesn't share the view of the person they come across are all simply being satiric? No. No, it does not. While I do not see myself as having to prove anything to anyone concering this matter, know that I am in fact serious in everything I post.