Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

Elementalist changes in the 11/15 patch


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#31 Anubbyss

Anubbyss

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:20 AM

Don't worry Necromancers lost the blast finisher effect on Mark of Evasion to so we can't dodge into combo fields for combo effects either now :*(

#32 FrancisCrawford

FrancisCrawford

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 919 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:26 AM

Lightning Hammer has a bunch of blast finishers, but

View PostBZeeB, on 16 November 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

no sigil gives us a blast finisher does it :P  im out of ideas what to use for my staff now =/

Lightning Hammer? :)

Good luck using that with Geyser, however. Longer-lasting fields are only a little more realistic.

#33 Lysand

Lysand

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 11 posts
  • Location:黄泉平坂
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:13 AM

View PostNonlinear, on 16 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

shame on you guys for having unintended fun.  you should be glad that they fixed this so you can go back to or discover all the other super fun builds out there using our other awesome traits....
that's funny, tell another!

really though, the common sentiment (with which I agree) seems to be that many of our grandmaster traits leave much to be desired, and this nerf really drives the damn point home

#34 tufy

tufy

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:12 AM

This patch can be summed up as "overwhelming whines over nothing at all". Classic MMO forum sentiment, then :P

1. I never understood why so many D/D elementalists rushed into 30 arcana. The 20/10/10/10/20 auramentalist is so much superior it's not even funny and this change drives the point home even more.

2. With Evasive Arcana change, hopefully the crazy mass rush for 30 arcana will end and elementalists (particularly staff elementalists) will explore other options. Grandmaster traits are less weak than people hold them to be.


That said, does anyone have specific numbers for conjures? I'm interested if they can match the exotic gear now.

#35 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:23 AM

"explore other options" ?! Like what? Rushing around with a lightning hammer or a flaming axe? is that what a MAGE is supposed to be/do?

With EA nerf they basically destroyed in half our buffing, support and healing power, all the tooltip fix are indeed a nerf (they could have buffed those skills, no! let's downgrade them by 20% ++!)
They want us to go meele, with not even half the party support we could give, with the lowest armor + hp pool, wearing a lighting hammer in silk vests?! Overall cause all other classes already do it (and better than us)

No sorry, my only other option is to reroll, if this is a game i'm supposed to have fun, here i'm not having fun, i'll just move on.
Being "jack of all trades" was the reason i went ele, they removed it, no point to stay for me, GL to everyone who will stick to the class.
Maybe we'll cya at next skill update

#36 Tacticalgrace

Tacticalgrace

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:36 AM

I was waiting to gauge Anet's intentions with this patch. Unfortunately it is very disappointing, and I now must face I'm only playing ele because I want to play a mage class, not because because working twice as hard to achieve a lessor result relative to other classes is my preference for fun.

They should have called this The Lost Cause patch. ;)

#37 Aetou

Aetou

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 614 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

The change doesn't really make us worse at healing/support it just makes us worse in uncoordinated pugs.  They were always supposed to be cross-profession combo fields where you coordinated with other players for cool effects and so long as you make sure somebody else in your group packs blast finishes... Heck, I'm biased I guess as I decided that Water 20 was more useful than the last 10 in Arcane a month or so ago, but before you panic too much let me assure you that having been running without Arcane 30 for a while now a Support staff build can most certainly work very, very well without it.

#38 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:41 AM

I hardly see how you could substitute something like being able to cast a geyser near a team mate in danger and dodge roll inside healing AoE him for 5-6k + removing condition + giving rigen for 10+secs
Or double dodge inside a healing rain.... or inside, wtf inside everything!
We had so many fields + blast finishers, now we have none...

I'd rather go play a shout warrior, same support, more hp, more armor, more dmg, no way.

#39 tufy

tufy

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:10 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 16 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

"explore other options" ?! Like what? Rushing around with a lightning hammer or a flaming axe? is that what a MAGE is supposed to be/do?

1. There is no MAGE class in this game. If you want those, there's WoW, Dragon Age and others.
2. If the Elementalist wants to wield Lightning Hammer / Flame Axe and he has those at his disposal, I don't see why those should be shunned. Just as there are Mantra builds for the Mesmer or ranged builds for the Guardian, so too should there be a Lightning Hammer build for the Elementalist. Let me point out that this isn't a new thing - there are forms of melee casters in other games and the concept goes back all the way to earliest days of high fantasy (and beyond, even a number of nordic gods clearly fit the criteria, as do other religious and mythical figures).
3. At no point did I suggest that an elementalist should pick another weapon. I simply stated that 30 arcana was a crazed mass rush without even looking at other options, something that I hope will change now. Even Staff can be played with a number of good builds (fire-centric, earth-centric, full support, burning-based, etc.), but they were all ignored for the cookie-cutter EA. It's the same as Scepter/Dagger, a good weapon combination that for some silly reason seems to be played with one specific combo only. That combo fails and 9 out of 10 S/D elementalists don't have a clue what to do anymore.

My point is, elementalist is an incredibly powerful profession, but most people have some preconception based on their experiences from previous games (even GW1) and expect them all to come true. Take elementalist for what it is, build around its strengths and weaknesses and you'll do great.

Quote

I hardly see how you could substitute something like being able to cast a geyser near a team mate in danger and dodge roll inside healing AoE him for 5-6k + removing condition + giving rigen for 10+secs
Or double dodge inside a healing rain.... or inside, wtf inside everything!
We had so many fields + blast finishers, now we have none...

Evasive Arcana triggered one blast finisher every 10 seconds. You still have Arcane Wave and Eruption, one of which has a 6s cooldown and the other a 30s one. Basically: stop whining and adapt.

Edited by tufy, 16 November 2012 - 10:15 AM.


#40 CepaCepa

CepaCepa

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 337 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:10 AM

View PostAetou, on 16 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

The change doesn't really make us worse at healing/support it just makes us worse in uncoordinated pugs.  They were always supposed to be cross-profession combo fields where you coordinated with other players for cool effects and so long as you make sure somebody else in your group packs blast finishes... Heck, I'm biased I guess as I decided that Water 20 was more useful than the last 10 in Arcane a month or so ago, but before you panic too much let me assure you that having been running without Arcane 30 for a while now a Support staff build can most certainly work very, very well without it.

In theory, yes. If those two thieves in your groups whips out a short bow every time you begin your healing rain casting animation, and when that happens it feels great. But as my group puts it, there's no point to bring a "support" elementalist to do that, if that's ALL I can provide. If I'm the one putting down the combo field AND doing the blast finisher, they can focus more on doing damage. If they have to spend initiatives/cooldown/time to do those blast finishers themselves, then naturally I'd need to make up for the "loss of utility" by doing more damage. Hence they'd prefer to have me focus on damage instead and just throw out some combo fields on the ground from time to time.

The reason that they have been enjoying my support elementalist so far was because I'm watching everyone's health/condition every second while I do damage, and if someone is in trouble, I can fix it right away by performing that chain blast finisher combo getting him/her to almost full health. To be fair even after the nerf I can still perform much of what I can do, but burst on demand healing and/or might stacking is now a lot weaker, and my team immediately noticed the difference. We're still viable support, definitely, but having witnessed what was possible before, now I (and my team) hesitate to continue down this road and it's time to re-evaluate our group setup.

This change will make us worse at HEAVY healing/support, which in all fairness was somewhat reasonable because the elementalist has become the only profession that is able to provide this level of healing/support in the game. Nevertheless, I'm surprised that they gave out this nerf before creating or enhancing the otherpossibilities. It still feels like a stealth nerf because 1. There's no warning for this nerf and 2. The change to EA was too sudden, too big. You'd think that a nerf would be to limit the blast finisher effect of EA to once per 10 second per attunement, but instead they took out the whole thing all together.

I'm sure every EA elementalist will find some other way of playing now that we've been denied of this playstyle, but I certainly hope that the transition is more smooth. I mean, they could at least warn us about it beforehand, a complete set of armor/accessories/weapons/sigil/runes/transmutation is not cheap. Tailored to a boon/healing build means that the same set of gears is quite hard to adapt to anything else. If they'd given some warning I'd at least save up 20 gold for this character just in case... :(

It's like going to graduate school for nuclear medicine and on the day of your graduation you're told that the world just passed a law to ban everything nuclear. At least give me a hint in advance so that I can switch my thesis direction before paying off all the tuition... :(

Edited by CepaCepa, 16 November 2012 - 10:26 AM.


#41 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:27 AM

View Posttufy, on 16 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

1. There is no MAGE class in this game. If you want those, there's WoW, Dragon Age and others.
2. If the Elementalist wants to wield Lightning Hammer / Flame Axe and he has those at his disposal, I don't see why those should be shunned. Just as there are Mantra builds for the Mesmer or ranged builds for the Guardian, so too should there be a Lightning Hammer build for the Elementalist. Let me point out that this isn't a new thing - there are forms of melee casters in other games and the concept goes back all the way to earliest days of high fantasy (and beyond, even a number of nordic gods clearly fit the criteria, as do other religious and mythical figures).
3. At no point did I suggest that an elementalist should pick another weapon. I simply stated that 30 arcana was a crazed mass rush without even looking at other options, something that I hope will change now. Even Staff can be played with a number of good builds (fire-centric, earth-centric, full support, burning-based, etc.), but they were all ignored for the cookie-cutter EA. It's the same as Scepter/Dagger, a good weapon combination that for some silly reason seems to be played with one specific combo only. That combo fails and 9 out of 10 S/D elementalists don't have a clue what to do anymore.

My point is, elementalist is an incredibly powerful profession, but most people have some preconception based on their experiences from previous games (even GW1) and expect them all to come true. Take elementalist for what it is, build around its strengths and weaknesses and you'll do great.



Evasive Arcana triggered one blast finisher every 10 seconds. You still have Arcane Wave and Eruption, one of which has a 6s cooldown and the other a 30s one. Basically: stop whining and adapt.

Evasive Arcana triggered one INSTANT blast finisher EVERY DODGE, with Vigor up and a Sigil of Energy you basically had 1 Blast every 2-3 secs for 30 secs, Eruption? Come on who ever used Eruption to heal seriously, Arcane Wave it's ok but it's 1 every 30 sec, we talking about 10-15 Blast in the same 30 secs man, do u see the difference or not?

Adapt? To crapness? Sry no, was fun till it lasted, got better things to do with my time

About ur argument there are no mages here what Anet says about their Ele in their own official website:

Quote

Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding.
What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.

I agree with you that if someone wants to run around with an hammer can do it, i disagree when u dont want to see they are pushing us doing ONLY it, when it shouldn't be.
When it comes up to be effective it's clear that ele is not on par anymore with any other class... maybe with rangers, they can get dust on a shelf both together lol

#42 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:56 AM

View Posttufy, on 16 November 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

This patch can be summed up as "overwhelming whines over nothing at all". Classic MMO forum sentiment, then :P

1. I never understood why so many D/D elementalists rushed into 30 arcana. The 20/10/10/10/20 auramentalist is so much superior it's not even funny and this change drives the point home even more.

2. With Evasive Arcana change, hopefully the crazy mass rush for 30 arcana will end and elementalists (particularly staff elementalists) will explore other options. Grandmaster traits are less weak than people hold them to be.


That said, does anyone have specific numbers for conjures? I'm interested if they can match the exotic gear now.

1. The 20/10/10/10/20 Auramentalist build relied on gimmicky signet aura application, was far inferior to x/x/x/x/30 with boon duration and lacked utility due to signet use.
2. Our other options are terribad.
3.Conjurs themselves are still bad with greatsword and hammer being okay. Icebow got an unwarranted nerf.

#43 Nonlinear

Nonlinear

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:23 AM

be thankful guys, the patch made you ele's much more boring and less fun but hey your boredom is working as intended,  thankfully we have all these "real" elementalists in this thread to tell us how awesome the builds we thought were no fun really are, and how great our lackluster grandmaster really are now that our fun trait isn't even worth taking.

#44 Murmer

Murmer

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 169 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

View Posttufy, on 16 November 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

This patch can be summed up as "overwhelming whines over nothing at all". Classic MMO forum sentiment, then :P

1. I never understood why so many D/D elementalists rushed into 30 arcana. The 20/10/10/10/20 auramentalist is so much superior it's not even funny and this change drives the point home even more.

2. With Evasive Arcana change, hopefully the crazy mass rush for 30 arcana will end and elementalists (particularly staff elementalists) will explore other options. Grandmaster traits are less weak than people hold them to be.


That said, does anyone have specific numbers for conjures? I'm interested if they can match the exotic gear now.

I'm going to assume you are on a whole, extremely unknowing of what a "might stacking" build is. Might stacking relies on 30 in arcana for the boon duration, attunement switch CD reduction, and evasive arcana for blast finishers to *create* that might. And being in water with evasive arcana was extra healing.

Auramentalists was *NOT* superior to might stacking elementalist with 30 arcana. Not even close in terms of damage. Every fight I could get 25 might. And helped others in the team who were near me get might. Auramentalist? Not as much utility, not as much damage, not superior. I've tried both, and settled on might stacking and might duration.

Please name at least 5 grandmaster traits that you believe are in this sphere of power? You didn't in your post, and I couldn't help but want you to share your greater views to perhaps enlighten us. As most people might suspect that you were trolling.

**For Now, I have dropped D/D completely in favor of burst staff style (Power/Precision/Vit). It works fine in dungeons, but I will mourn my daggers**

#45 BlaineTog

BlaineTog

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 102 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:12 PM

View Posttufy, on 16 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

1. There is no MAGE class in this game. If you want those, there's WoW, Dragon Age and others.
Perhaps I will go play one of those instead, then.  I am disappointed that this game cannot help me fulfill such a basic fantasy for the genre.

#46 ObscureThreat

ObscureThreat

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 143 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:14 PM

This reminds of Diablo 3 style balancing. Nerf whatever is popular and not provide a meaningful alternative. The fact is they should of just left EA alone and buffed other skills to provide an alternative. That way we could choose to change our builds if we wanted to rather than be forced to. Also was EA considered overpowered or something. I've never heard anybody claim it was, so why the nerf. In terms of the argument that previously it was a bug rather than intended, with so many tooltips being wrong and skills not matching what the tooltip is saying, its hard to know if the tooltip accurately reflects what the devs wanted the skill to do.

But whatever, my warrior got buffed, and he can stack 25 stacks of might easily.

#47 Aetou

Aetou

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 614 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostMurmer, on 16 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Auramentalists was *NOT* superior to might stacking elementalist with 30 arcana. Not even close in terms of damage. Every fight I could get 25 might. And helped others in the team who were near me get might. Auramentalist? Not as much utility, not as much damage, not superior. I've tried both, and settled on might stacking and might duration.

But 25 stacks of Might from one character was always overkill - typically if you are adding 15 the group as a whole will still max out comfortably.  A lot of people who are having issues seem to be running in groups with 4 Berserker canons rather than in balanced groups where everyone is bringing some useful utility in addition to their damage.  Likewise with healing: so long as there is one Guardian, Warrior or Ranger in the group I've never had an issue on the healing front (and even then that second character is pretty much just insurance, but you'll pretty much always have one of them in your group anyway.)  We aren't supposed to be able to mindlessly heal through somebody facetanking the boss while the other 3 people just DPS away.  The fact that we could do that showed that ANet had messed up their implementation and that changes were needed.  

Just to be clear, I firmly believe that the spell effects should be Blast Finishers but that the previous situation was too much.  These changes require us to adapt a little but we still remain one of the two best Support classes and have several options to achieve that (and yes, Staff Auramentalist has always been a poor build, Auramentalist is for D/D or S/D.)

#48 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

I wouldn't mind EA nerf as much if they had given us a proper boost in lesser used areas. What's sad is that, even without the blast finishers EA was still better every other Grandmaster trait outside of the Water tree. Those hurt most by the nerf will find themselves investing slightly into water, earth or air not because they offer interesting alternatives but because they're not as bad as others.

#49 Milennin

Milennin

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 3670 posts
  • Location:Europe
  • Guild Tag:[TB]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 16 November 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind EA nerf as much if they had given us a proper boost in lesser used areas. What's sad is that, even without the blast finishers EA was still better every other Grandmaster trait outside of the Water tree. Those hurt most by the nerf will find themselves investing slightly into water, earth or air not because they offer interesting alternatives but because they're not as bad as others.

They gave us +180 in whatever when using Conjured weapons. Cause giving up 20 skills for 5 is so worth the +180 in whatever.

#50 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

View PostMilennin, on 16 November 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

They gave us +180 in whatever when using Conjured weapons. Cause giving up 20 skills for 5 is so worth the +180 in whatever.
You still lose your weapon stats in PvE as well. So worth it.

#51 Caledore

Caledore

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 306 posts
  • Location:Maryland
  • Guild Tag:[LC]
  • Server:Stormbluff Isle

Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:13 PM

Well, this plus the reveal of the Ascended tier certainly guts my interest in the game. I would understand if they just removed the finisher when the attunement spell is on cooldown (it never seemed intended to give a finisher on every roll, even when the spell didn't fire), but getting rid of the finisher entirely? Where is the logic in that?

Edited by Caledore, 16 November 2012 - 03:14 PM.


#52 tufy

tufy

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 16 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Evasive Arcana triggered one INSTANT blast finisher EVERY DODGE

Which was clearly and undeniably unintended, broken and was bound to be fixed. Therefore the only relevant dodges are the ones every 10 seconds. My comment stands.

Quote

Eruption? Come on who ever used Eruption to heal seriously

I do all the time when I'm rolling with a staff. Works great, you just have to account for the longer build-up time.

Quote

I agree with you that if someone wants to run around with an hammer can do it, i disagree when u dont want to see they are pushing us doing ONLY it, when it shouldn't be.

Really? How's that? My D/D is only slightly affected, the staff builds I use are unaffected, the S/D is same as it was. Yup, end of the world. :P

Quote

The 20/10/10/10/20 Auramentalist build relied on gimmicky signet aura application, was far inferior to x/x/x/x/30 with boon duration and lacked utility due to signet use.


Please point out where exactly I stated it was a signet build. On the contrary, it's a cantrip/aura build that has nothing at all to do with signets (and as much as I know, the signets don't trigger aura boons anymore anyway), because a signet build is gimped in defense, imo.

Quote

I'm going to assume you are on a whole, extremely unknowing of what a "might stacking" build is. Might stacking relies on 30 in arcana for the boon duration, attunement switch CD reduction, and evasive arcana for blast finishers to *create* that might. And being in water with evasive arcana was extra healing.


You assume incorrectly. Personally, I believe an S/D is far more effective at might stacking than Staff will ever be and with it, you don't need full arcane to get to 25. However, as Aetou above stated, getting that much is overkill, the 15 or so you get as D/D or the 12 you run as fire staff are more than enough for most purposes.

Regarding the damage: no comment. I've tested a whole pile of builds, possible, impossible and god knows what else - the 20/10/10/10/20 always came on top, except when fighting structures (such as burrows in AC or doors in WvW), where full fire staff with frost bow has no challenger at all. Not just that - thanks to a whole bunch of cantrips and aura defenses, that D/D is surprisingly sturdy - the only thing passing it would be a full bunker build, but that's no match in damage.

#53 Murmer

Murmer

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 169 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostAetou, on 16 November 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

But 25 stacks of Might from one character was always overkill - typically if you are adding 15 the group as a whole will still max out comfortably.  A lot of people who are having issues seem to be running in groups with 4 Berserker canons rather than in balanced groups where everyone is bringing some useful utility in addition to their damage.  Likewise with healing: so long as there is one Guardian, Warrior or Ranger in the group I've never had an issue on the healing front (and even then that second character is pretty much just insurance, but you'll pretty much always have one of them in your group anyway.)  We aren't supposed to be able to mindlessly heal through somebody facetanking the boss while the other 3 people just DPS away.  The fact that we could do that showed that ANet had messed up their implementation and that changes were needed.  

Just to be clear, I firmly believe that the spell effects should be Blast Finishers but that the previous situation was too much.  These changes require us to adapt a little but we still remain one of the two best Support classes and have several options to achieve that (and yes, Staff Auramentalist has always been a poor build, Auramentalist is for D/D or S/D.)

The only problem is that D/D honestly doesn't have a lot going for it. They took away their damage potential, but didn't supplement it with anything else. So it was a straight nerf to the core mechanic that D/D is for. Doing damage.  That mechanic made it on-par with other professions weapon skills.


View Posttufy, on 16 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

You assume incorrectly. Personally, I believe an S/D is far more effective at might stacking than Staff will ever be and with it, you don't need full arcane to get to 25. However, as Aetou above stated, getting that much is overkill, the 15 or so you get as D/D or the 12 you run as fire staff are more than enough for most purposes.

Regarding the damage: no comment. I've tested a whole pile of builds, possible, impossible and god knows what else - the 20/10/10/10/20 always came on top, except when fighting structures (such as burrows in AC or doors in WvW), where full fire staff with frost bow has no challenger at all. Not just that - thanks to a whole bunch of cantrips and aura defenses, that D/D is surprisingly sturdy - the only thing passing it would be a full bunker build, but that's no match in damage.
My build was D/D might stacking. 25 might in 6 seconds ans sustained 18-20 throughout the fights. Sceptor might work for some, but I found it a bit clumsy and not very forgiving when tracking targets. Thus, I prefer, and sustain, that D/D might stacking is not only viable, but easier to grasp for most people. Now I digress to address the damage...


I tend to disagree with you. In terms of D/D, the lack of blast finishers readily available via Evasive arcana *provided* utility to the teams and healing. Push that aside and what does that leave you? D/D is now, in a manner, not as good as it was in terms of providing that utility, and the damage. I was pushing 8-9k crits in Orr with my build. Without might stacking, that's just not possible with any other combination of traits or what have you. Without evasive Arcana, I can't get even close to that, and remain as surviveable.

I don't really care about the staff. But many people know that I've been D/D since I've started this game. Now in order to stay viable, I must switch to staff and learn to use power/precision gear with that. Since, I'm not rich.

Edited by Murmer, 16 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#54 Eliirae

Eliirae

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 232 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

So much overreaction over one single thing.  Evasive Arcana didn't make or break elementalists.  As far as I recall, elementalists were fine before they got up to evasive arcana, and I see no reason why a couple extra blast finishers suddenly made them viable.

Aside from that, they buffed conjure builds, because 1) they either wanted people to use them or 2) they saw people were using them and decided to give them a boost.

Also, the elite skill: How dare they fix the ability to use your elite skill than instantly cancel it while keeping all the benefits!  Bug fix.  If your entire playstyle revolved around this, then find a playstyle that doesn't involve abusing bugs.

#55 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

I recently dusted off my engineer and bought some new gear for him. In my opinion the bomb spec is able to support far better than an ele can at the moment, so I'm setting aside my ele until ANet can give them meaningful and distinctive buffs.

View Posttufy, on 16 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Please point out where exactly I stated it was a signet build. On the contrary, it's a cantrip/aura build that has nothing at all to do with signets (and as much as I know, the signets don't trigger aura boons anymore anyway), because a signet build is gimped in defense, imo.
I assumed as much since that's the very same trait spread used by signet builds.

As for the other's saying the the EA nerf isn't the end for eles, I absolutely agree. With the right builds eles are at least decent in all areas. The problem I'm having with them as of the patch is that they've lost a very distinctive edge that made them a bit more than that. For me, they now just a class that's got a bit much everywhere all the time, and this is saying a lot for something who's leaving the class in favor of an Engie.

P.S. Conjure weapons (except maybe hammer) are still terrible no matter how you cut it. They don't need a buff. They need a redesigning.

Edited by Featherman, 16 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.


#56 Falcon07

Falcon07

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 161 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:14 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 16 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

"explore other options" ?! Like what? Rushing around with a lightning hammer or a flaming axe? is that what a MAGE is supposed to be/do?

With EA nerf they basically destroyed in half our buffing, support and healing power, all the tooltip fix are indeed a nerf (they could have buffed those skills, no! let's downgrade them by 20% ++!)
They want us to go meele, with not even half the party support we could give, with the lowest armor + hp pool, wearing a lighting hammer in silk vests?! Overall cause all other classes already do it (and better than us)

No sorry, my only other option is to reroll, if this is a game i'm supposed to have fun, here i'm not having fun, i'll just move on.
Being "jack of all trades" was the reason i went ele, they removed it, no point to stay for me, GL to everyone who will stick to the class.
Maybe we'll cya at next skill update

i hate to sound like i'm arguing for the hell of it but have you ever heard of a mage who throws out some sort of elemental area effect and then does some crazy athletic flip into it to cause an explosion to trigger effects? if anything we should be capable of putting out our elemental field and then dropping an aracane explosion into it from 30 yards away.

evasive arcana was not working as intended and they fixed the bug. i understand you guys were all happy and liked the effect the bug was causing an that you constructed builds around this bug but that isnt what they intended.

View PostEliirae, on 16 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

So much overreaction over one single thing.  Evasive Arcana didn't make or break elementalists.  As far as I recall, elementalists were fine before they got up to evasive arcana, and I see no reason why a couple extra blast finishers suddenly made them viable.

Aside from that, they buffed conjure builds, because 1) they either wanted people to use them or 2) they saw people were using them and decided to give them a boost.

Also, the elite skill: How dare they fix the ability to use your elite skill than instantly cancel it while keeping all the benefits!  Bug fix.  If your entire playstyle revolved around this, then find a playstyle that doesn't involve abusing bugs.


agreed. people are up in arms because they used builds that centered around a bug in evasive aracan that was unintended. if thats the only reaosn they like elementalist then i guess they'll have to reroll.

Edited by Falcon07, 16 November 2012 - 05:12 PM.


#57 Cruzzi

Cruzzi

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:44 PM

Quote

Aside from that, they buffed conjure builds, because 1) they either wanted people to use them or 2) they saw people were using them and decided to give them a boost.



If they wanted people to use them, maybe they should make the skills scale so that they'd be worth losing access to the rest of your skills along with an utility slot. This change doesn't do it, the weapons are still very much one trick ponies (aoe blind for hammer, confusion storm for bow, daze/invuln for shield, burning for axe) that just aren't worth it in most situations in pve and pretty much never in pvp.

View PostFalcon07, on 16 November 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

evasive arcana was not working as intended and they fixed the bug. i understand you guys were all happy and liked the effect the bug was causing an that you constructed builds around this bug but that isnt what they intended.

agreed. people are up in arms because they used builds that centered around a bug in evasive aracan that was unintended. if thats the only reaosn they like elementalist then i guess they'll have to reroll.

We expected them to not leave the grandmaster trait for arcana as "cast a 1000 point heal around you when you dodge in water element every 10 seconds". There probably wouldn't be more than a few whines if they had enforced a 10-second for the blast finishers or so on. If they had made the dodge effects actually mean a damn in exchange for losing the blasts, there'd be a lot of whines, but still a lot less than what we have now and we'd have a useable trait. Instead we now have another weak trait filling up Arcana, which we nevertheless are nearly forced to spec in because of how the elementalist class mechanics work.

My real issue with the evasive arcana "fix" is that they give us nothing in return for a huge nerf. I didn't consider my ele that powerful even with the blasts, but it had a hell of a lot of group utility possibilities and was interesting to play. Now with most of that utility gone, if you were min/maxing a group, why on earth would you take an ele over another class? Probably going to mostly play my engineer and warrior for the coming weeks while I try to figure out an answer to that.

Edited by Cruzzi, 16 November 2012 - 05:58 PM.


#58 CepaCepa

CepaCepa

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 337 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostEliirae, on 16 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Also, the elite skill: How dare they fix the ability to use your elite skill than instantly cancel it while keeping all the benefits!  Bug fix.  If your entire playstyle revolved around this, then find a playstyle that doesn't involve abusing bugs.


View PostFalcon07, on 16 November 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

evasive arcana was not working as intended and they fixed the bug. i understand you guys were all happy and liked the effect the bug was causing an that you constructed builds around this bug but that isnt what they intended.

agreed. people are up in arms because they used builds that centered around a bug in evasive aracan that was unintended. if thats the only reaosn they like elementalist then i guess they'll have to reroll.

If we're able to know what is intended and what is not, we wouldn't be in this situation. Hell if we know that something is not intended, we definitely wouldn't have spent 20+ gold on gearing specifically for that "bug", knowing it probably would get fixed some day. Where exactly do you read that all the benefits of an elite skill should be cancelled the moment you leave it? In fact, before this patch, almost all other professions can do the same thing. What does that suggest to us? Well it is intended, no reason to think otherwise, and we'd conclude that using the skill for its boons, for all we know, is a legitimate choice to make. ANet hasn't told us otherwise before this patch, for you to NOW jump out and tell us "oh you were exploiting a bug" is none sense.

Same with evasive arcana. When I first read the tooltip on that skill back-when, I didn't know what to think of it. After they've changed the spell effects to the current skills (churning earth instead of shock wave) I thought "wow churning earth on dodge, must be wonderful damage" and tried it out --- It doesn't do nearly as much damage. So the logical conclusion is: OK, so these EA spells are just CALLED those spells, and don't really do the same exact things. Just before I was about to try something else due to churning earth not impressing me in EA, I found out that they're blast finishers. They weren't before, they are now. What should I think of it? OF COURSE I thought that was intended by ANet! In fact the whole community had been under that belief for so long, you simply cannot just say "well that's too bad because you guys exploited a bug".

Had they been more clear about what they intend things to do, we wouldn't be so upset. We wouldn't get into this situation in the first place. If they didn't have an effect before and added such effects after the patch, then naturally I'd assume such effects are intended. You can argue that the "spells" themselves are not blast finishers so the EA effects shouldn't be either, but we've already established that these EA spells are just different spells all together (example, churning earth, fire blast) and thus we shouldn't expect them to behave the same way. ANet hasn't been telling us otherwise all these time, so how the hell do you deduct that "these effects are bugs"?

Yes, now they say it is unintended, and if they say so then I won't argue against that. But surely you see where the frustration comes from --- With no warning and all the misleading information, how were we supposed to know? It's not like we've been hiding this build underground, ANet knows full well what we're doing, but they haven't said a word on it until now. Like I've said before, this frustrates us because it is too sudden, too fast. If a patch, out of nowhere, suddenly takes away the bleed portion of deathblossom's damage, you'd hear a lot of complaints too --- Even if they compensated the skill with direct damage, the thing is deathblossom build thieves may have invested a lot of resources into a condition damage build already, and a sudden game-play changing decision like this just hits too hard without warning.

Again, saying things like "oh it's a bug? exploiters!" is none sense. You're essentially calling people "cheaters" when you know that they've no intention to "cheat", we've been giving no information, no warning, no feedback. Many countries make it so that the relevant departments are RESPONSIBLE of educating people of the law and expectations, and if they fail to do so they'd take the blame instead of the clueless people who weren't been told otherwise. Yes I know this is an mmo and this is what happens in mmo, I'm not "holding a grudge" against ANet, but to have the PEOPLE telling us "haha in your face you did bad things and you deserved punishment" is just wrong.

Edited by CepaCepa, 16 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#59 The_Tree_Branch

The_Tree_Branch

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 188 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostMilennin, on 16 November 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

They gave us +180 in whatever when using Conjured weapons. Cause giving up 20 skills for 5 is so worth the +180 in whatever.

Don't forget that you only get the +180 on the first weapon you conjure. The one off the ground doesn't give the stats.

View PostEliirae, on 16 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

So much overreaction over one single thing.  Evasive Arcana didn't make or break elementalists.  As far as I recall, elementalists were fine before they got up to evasive arcana, and I see no reason why a couple extra blast finishers suddenly made them viable.

Aside from that, they buffed conjure builds, because 1) they either wanted people to use them or 2) they saw people were using them and decided to give them a boost.

Also, the elite skill: How dare they fix the ability to use your elite skill than instantly cancel it while keeping all the benefits!  Bug fix.  If your entire playstyle revolved around this, then find a playstyle that doesn't involve abusing bugs.

So much to address, but I'll give it a shot.

1) Only the first conjure weapon gives you +stats. The one on the ground does not. Not to mention that conjures are extremely clunky to use. You give up 21 skills (4 attunements + utility) in order to get 5 skills with a charge counter and a timer. A lot more needs to be reworked with Conjures before they are viable in any sort of competitive area.

2) They missed a ton of bug fixes (Windborne Speed from Arcana trait line) and couldn't successfully fix anything with Cantrip Mastery and Mist Form despite addressing it in the patch notes. All they changes was making the tooltip show 60 seconds while the skill itself still takes 75. Not to mention the steal nerf/bug introduced where auras from combo fields no longer benefit from the traits relating to auras. RTL/Magnetic grasp still pretty buggy

3) Elites (specifically tornado). If your Elite is so bad that you actually have elementalists popping it and then leaving it immediately just to keep the stability, you might want to take a closer look at the skill. Tornado needs to reflect projectiles. Thief's "spin-to-win" used to provide invulnerability with damage and cripples. That got reduced to damage/cripples/reflect projectiles. For a class with less hp, armor, and general survivability, you'd think Tornado could deflect arrows (even makes sense from a physics perspective)

4) Evasive Arcana was a grandmaster trait. Leave a blast finisher with a shared cooldown, no need to get rid of them completely. This trait has definitely dropped several tiers.

5) Elementalists have the lowest HP and armor. That's fine if we can supplement our selves with spells/boons. Nerfing boon duration, protection duration, and magnetic aura duration on runes has a much bigger impact on our survivability. Not to mention reducing the heal on healing ripple by 50%. I agree they needed to reduce from infinite targets to 5, and I'm fine with 50% heal on allies, but let the source keep 100% heal. We've got shit hp.

6) Fire/Air traitlines are extremely lackluster - especially in competitive play. You can get through a lot of PvE with it, but you can do that with a lot of builds. From a PvP perspective, these traits are just bad. The issue a lot of people have with these patch notes are our main viable trait lines got nerfed, and we really didn't get anything in return beyond a couple of "fixes" (half of which don't work properly), and buffs to conjures which are a fun idea, but implemented poorly.

#60 Falcon07

Falcon07

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 161 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 16 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

If we're able to know what is intended and what is not, we wouldn't be in this situation. Hell if we know that something is not intended, we definitely wouldn't have spent 20+ gold on gearing specifically for that "bug", knowing it probably would get fixed some day. Where exactly do you read that all the benefits of an elite skill should be cancelled the moment you leave it? In fact, before this patch, almost all other professions can do the same thing. What does that suggest to us? Well it is intended, no reason to think otherwise, and we'd conclude that using the skill for its boons, for all we know, is a legitimate choice to make. ANet hasn't told us otherwise before this patch, for you to NOW jump out and tell us "oh you were exploiting a bug" is none sense.

Same with evasive arcana. When I first read the tooltip on that skill back-when, I didn't know what to think of it. After they've changed the spell effects to the current skills (churning earth instead of shock wave) I thought "wow churning earth on dodge, must be wonderful damage" and tried it out --- It doesn't do nearly as much damage. So the logical conclusion is: OK, so these EA spells are just CALLED those spells, and don't really do the same exact things. Just before I was about to try something else due to churning earth not impressing me in EA, I found out that they're blast finishers. They weren't before, they are now. What should I think of it? OF COURSE I thought that was intended by ANet! In fact the whole community had been under that belief for so long, you simply cannot just say "well that's too bad because you guys exploited a bug".

Had they been more clear about what they intend things to do, we wouldn't be so upset. We wouldn't get into this situation in the first place. If they didn't have an effect before and added such effects after the patch, then naturally I'd assume such effects are intended. You can argue that the "spells" themselves are not blast finishers so the EA effects shouldn't be either, but we've already established that these EA spells are just different spells all together (example, churning earth, fire blast) and thus we shouldn't expect them to behave the same way. ANet hasn't been telling us otherwise all these time, so how the hell do you deduct that "these effects are bugs"?

Yes, now they say it is unintended, and if they say so then I won't argue against that. But surely you see where the frustration comes from --- With no warning and all the misleading information, how were we supposed to know? It's not like we've been hiding this build underground, ANet knows full well what we're doing, but they haven't said a word on it until now. Like I've said before, this frustrates us because it is too sudden, too fast. If a patch, out of nowhere, suddenly takes away the bleed portion of deathblossom's damage, you'd hear a lot of complaints too --- Even if they compensated the skill with direct damage, the thing is deathblossom build thieves may have invested a lot of resources into a condition damage build already, and a sudden game-play changing decision like this just hits too hard without warning.

Again, saying things like "oh it's a bug? exploiters!" is none sense. You're essentially calling people "cheaters" when you know that they've no intention to "cheat", we've been giving no information, no warning, no feedback. Many countries make it so that the relevant departments are RESPONSIBLE of educating people of the law and expectations, and if they fail to do so they'd take the blame instead of the clueless people who weren't been told otherwise. Yes I know this is an mmo and this is what happens in mmo, I'm not "holding a grudge" against ANet, but to have the PEOPLE telling us "haha in your face you did bad things and you deserved punishment" is just wrong.


never called you cheaters. but it had to be a thought that nowhere in any of the tooltips did it say anything about blast finishers. alot of times when something in an mmo seems to good to be true it gets nerfed. i never got far enough in level to give this build a try, it sounds like it was performing very well. unfortunately it was a bug and now its gone. time to figure out other builds to play, thats all i'm saying. i am very disappointed in the elementalist so far, but i love mage classes so i'll stick with it and try to find something that performs well and is fun to play. hell, in wow i stuck with boomkin when it was crap and eventually it became great.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users