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#1 fatality39

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

Does anyone see a connection between the politics of the NA/EU of entitlements and those that post about how legendaries should be easier to get and exotics should be end game gear(since it took you a few hours to get really)?

People want everything given to them or do not want to work for anything. I see a direct correlation with what is going on in the real world.  Interesting microcosm from a video game.

I see the argument now regarding stat treadmill and keep it skill based, but this game along with its predecessor is probably one of the easier MMOs ever, and both cater to casuals already.

Now, I do think they can bring more depth into the game by expanding traits and weapon skills, but I'm guessing that would cause the same few thousand to ask for a refund again.

There is literally more weapon grind in CoD right now vs. GW2

Edited by fatality39, 17 November 2012 - 04:41 PM.


#2 Corvindi

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

I'm sorry, but last time I checked it was workers who did all of what is known as work in this world.  I'm sorry you're insulted that these villainous scum feel entitled to fair pay for doing that work, but what bearing does that have on Guild Wars 2?

#3 Darkobra

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:59 PM

Oh really? You know about Scottish politics? Well you're gonna have to fill me in because I think I missed the part that ACTUALLY RELATES TO GUILD WARS 2!

#4 KasNova

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:59 PM

View Postfatality39, on 17 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

People want everything given to them or do not want to work for anything. I see a direct correlation with what is going on in the real world.  Interesting microcosm from a video game.

I can't speak for European politics, but in the US "entitlements" frequently refers to Social Security, Unemployment, and Medicare. All three programs are paid for by taxes taken directly out of every one of our paychecks. Suggesting that getting any of those benefits is to demand something for nothing either makes you a liar or an uniformed fool.

Your comments about people who dislike the new stat progression indicate you are the later. The complaints about the new gear tier are because the game was advertised as not requiring a constant grind for new gear. You assume that people would complain about new skills and traits, but it's a baseless accusation without a shred of evidence. You simply show that you are making people you disagree with out as an "other" in order to dehumanize them and consequently make it easier to dismiss them.

#5 NuclearDonut

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

Some people just don't understand and I have no idea why. There were 3 kinds of people that bought GW2. The GW1 veterans like me, the casual players who were turned off by the gear grind of other MMOs (this is the majority), and the WoW fanboys that thought it looked cool. The WoW players quit instantly because they raced to the end and found it had no traditional "end-game". The GW1 vets never cared about end-game and just wanted to play the series they loved. The casual players (once again, the majority) took their time playing and enjoyed everything the game had to offer. Now, when ANet brings in a new tier of gear to keep the WoW slaves playing, they alienate the majority of their playerbase who only bought the game for the exact reason that there would be no gear grind. Is that entitlement? Absolutely not. Those casual players were promised a different, more casual, kind of MMO. Within 3 months of the game's launch, ANet already went back on that promise. I don't understand how anyone can even attempt to justify this.

#6 Ardeni

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:13 PM

It is not that people don't want to work for their gear. It is much rather that people don't want repeat the same content over and over again in order to achieve something. Things should be made hard, but not tedious. Few people want to play video games if they have to do boring things in them.

#7 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:34 PM

View PostNuclearDonut, on 17 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Some people just don't understand and I have no idea why. There were 3 kinds of people that bought GW2. The GW1 veterans like me, the casual players who were turned off by the gear grind of other MMOs (this is the majority), and the WoW fanboys that thought it looked cool. The WoW players quit instantly because they raced to the end and found it had no traditional "end-game". The GW1 vets never cared about end-game and just wanted to play the series they loved. The casual players (once again, the majority) took their time playing and enjoyed everything the game had to offer. Now, when ANet brings in a new tier of gear to keep the WoW slaves playing, they alienate the majority of their playerbase who only bought the game for the exact reason that there would be no gear grind. Is that entitlement? Absolutely not. Those casual players were promised a different, more casual, kind of MMO. Within 3 months of the game's launch, ANet already went back on that promise. I don't understand how anyone can even attempt to justify this.
All the finger pointing that has gone on since release has become irritating and is a virus to any MMO community itself.  This is exactly why I don't have any urge to play GW2 lately even with the recent patch. Not b/c "omg grind" or b/c it's a gear treadmill, but because of the community who have their heads up their butts and are so stuck up about everything.

All I ever hear is "me me me" from casuals about this freakin game.  Why does it have to be all about you? It's about everyone, the game isn't ONLY for casuals or ONLY for hardcore gamers.  It's just frustrating to even read comments these days.

When you got ppl worried about joining guilds cuz they are scared everyone is an elitist and will force them to play a certain way you know their is a huge problem in mentality and understanding of MMOs in general.  If you are so depraved that you think all MMOs are all boring grind and everyone is an elitist but you who play it then their is an issue with you, not the game.

If you know MMO gamers you know people don't nicely fit into categories like this.  Not everyone is the same and don't all want the same things based on 2-3 categories of gamers.  Not everyone is either hardcore or casual in fact their are many things between the 2 and many who fit into both categories at the same time.  It disturbs me people actually believe this stuff and still want to assume they know everyone and everything about MMOs.  I don't know everything about MMOs either but I know for a fact MMO gamers aren't the scum of the earth so many on these forums believe they are.

Not just the WoW players quit, many players who never played WoW quit as well.  I had a group of people I became friends with and they all quit, none of them played WoW and none of them were all that hardcore players.  Casuals don't always see the bright side of things, hell if you know about gaming you know casuals can also be the first to quit if something is relatively "too hard" or not their style.

If GW2 only focused on the casual audience then the game wouldn't last that long at all.  Stop acting like they are the only audience that needs appealing to if they want this game to be successful.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 17 November 2012 - 07:36 PM.


#8 Iuris

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:48 PM

People represent the issue in various ways, but in the end, it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of balance.

People buy games for entertainment. There are various types of enjoyment that a game can bring and the one at issue here is that people gain a sense of satisfaction from working towards a goal and then reaching that goal.

A game that actually "hands you everything" would not aim satisfy this need at all. Such games are possible, but they aim towards satisfying a different goal. The worst punishment you could set for one who "wants to have everything handed out to him" would be just that - he would not gain any satisfaction at all from this type of game.

However, "wanting everything handed out to them" is not an accurate description. It is a slur that does not reflect what these people are calling for. Quite intellectually dishonest, actually, but that's the net for you.

Instead, it's a matter of "some work, yes, but how much?". Some want this work to be extremely excessive, while others want a moderate amount of work, and some want only low amount of work needed. Personally, I think the amount o work needed for the elite armors of GW1 was about right.

One issue however is this: Anet have made GW1, and showed a certain philosophy there. They also advertised this philosophy for the years during which we had been waiting for GW2. What we got, however, is arguably not exactly that philosophy in action. Instead of "no grind" we got "grind-lite, with option of heavy grind". Many feel betrayed by this discrepancy.

#9 NuclearDonut

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostZero_Soulreaver, on 17 November 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

All the finger pointing that has gone on since release has become irritating and is a virus to any MMO community itself.  This is exactly why I don't have any urge to play GW2 lately even with the recent patch. Not b/c "omg grind" or b/c it's a gear treadmill, but because of the community who have their heads up their butts and are so stuck up about everything.

All I ever hear is "me me me" from casuals about this freakin game.  Why does it have to be all about you? It's about everyone, the game isn't ONLY for casuals or ONLY for hardcore gamers.  It's just frustrating to even read comments these days.

When you got ppl worried about joining guilds cuz they are scared everyone is an elitist and will force them to play a certain way you know their is a huge problem in mentality and understanding of MMOs in general.  If you are so depraved that you think all MMOs are all boring grind and everyone is an elitist but you who play it then their is an issue with you, not the game.

If you know MMO gamers you know people don't nicely fit into categories like this.  Not everyone is the same and don't all want the same things based on 2-3 categories of gamers.  Not everyone is either hardcore or casual in fact their are many things between the 2 and many who fit into both categories at the same time.  It disturbs me people actually believe this stuff and still want to assume they know everyone and everything about MMOs.  I don't know everything about MMOs either but I know for a fact MMO gamers aren't the scum of the earth so many on these forums believe they are.

Not just the WoW players quit, many players who never played WoW quit as well.  I had a group of people I became friends with and they all quit, none of them played WoW and none of them were all that hardcore players.  Casuals don't always see the bright side of things, hell if you know about gaming you know casuals can also be the first to quit if something is relatively "too hard" or not their style.

If GW2 only focused on the casual audience then the game wouldn't last that long at all.  Stop acting like they are the only audience that needs appealing to if they want this game to be successful.
You clearly missed the part where I said I was a GW1 Vet and NOT a casual. Whether you like it or not, ANet focused on the casual market with GW2. Why else would I be able to get max gear right when I reach max level? They already have things for us hardcore players to do. You're the one pointing fingers here, and you're also one of the people who just don't get it. Like I said, I just cannot for the life of me see from your point of view. In most arguments I can see valid points from both sides, but I just don't see any valid points from people justifying Ascended gear. The game was fine as it was, and the fact is: we were lied to. People have the right to feel "entitled" to something that was a major selling point of the game. Go take a look at the forums and see how many people have made quitting posts, and that's the just the loud minority. I'm sure many more people have silently taken their leave.

View PostIuris, on 17 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

People represent the issue in various ways, but in the end, it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of balance.

People buy games for entertainment. There are various types of enjoyment that a game can bring and the one at issue here is that people gain a sense of satisfaction from working towards a goal and then reaching that goal.

A game that actually "hands you everything" would not aim satisfy this need at all. Such games are possible, but they aim towards satisfying a different goal. The worst punishment you could set for one who "wants to have everything handed out to him" would be just that - he would not gain any satisfaction at all from this type of game.

However, "wanting everything handed out to them" is not an accurate description. It is a slur that does not reflect what these people are calling for. Quite intellectually dishonest, actually, but that's the net for you.

Instead, it's a matter of "some work, yes, but how much?". Some want this work to be extremely excessive, while others want a moderate amount of work, and some want only low amount of work needed. Personally, I think the amount o work needed for the elite armors of GW1 was about right.

One issue however is this: Anet have made GW1, and showed a certain philosophy there. They also advertised this philosophy for the years during which we had been waiting for GW2. What we got, however, is arguably not exactly that philosophy in action. Instead of "no grind" we got "grind-lite, with option of heavy grind". Many feel betrayed by this discrepancy.
Well said. I agree with this, although I'm not as indifferent as you are. :P

#10 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostNuclearDonut, on 17 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Some people just don't understand and I have no idea why. There were 3 kinds of people that bought GW2. The GW1 veterans like me, the casual players who were turned off by the gear grind of other MMOs (this is the majority), and the WoW fanboys that thought it looked cool. The WoW players quit instantly because they raced to the end and found it had no traditional "end-game". The GW1 vets never cared about end-game and just wanted to play the series they loved. The casual players (once again, the majority) took their time playing and enjoyed everything the game had to offer. Now, when ANet brings in a new tier of gear to keep the WoW slaves playing, they alienate the majority of their playerbase who only bought the game for the exact reason that there would be no gear grind. Is that entitlement? Absolutely not. Those casual players were promised a different, more casual, kind of MMO. Within 3 months of the game's launch, ANet already went back on that promise. I don't understand how anyone can even attempt to justify this.
5 Year GW1 Player.
You didn't grind in Guild Wars 1? What were you doing? Replaying missions all the time?
All I did after I finished EOTN was grinded HoM titles and rare pets/weapons. Only dungeons and elite areas.

Don't talk as if you know everything.

Should this game be developed for casual players only? No!
There should be something for everyone. Hardcore and casual.

I don't recall FOW/UW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep HM players bit__ing about normal mode content in GW1.

Edited by Perm Shadow Form, 17 November 2012 - 07:59 PM.


#11 NuclearDonut

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 17 November 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

5 Year GW1 Player.
You didn't grind in Guild Wars 1? What were you doing? Replaying missions all the time?
All I did after I finished EOTN was grinded HoM titles and rare pets/weapons. Only dungeons and elite areas.

Don't talk as if you know everything.
Sure I grinded for some titles or armor skins, but none of that was ever necessary to be the best I could be. When did I ever say that I didn't grind or that I know everything? Also, 7 year GW1 player.

#12 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:04 PM

Care to explain why 10% of the whole content can't be designed for hardcore challenge seeking players?
I'm no |_|b3r 1337 p14yer, but I personally hate easy content and lack of long term goals.
I remember farming UW 2 hours daily for 2 weeks straight just to get 500k Mini Kraken or whatever was it called.
Was worth it.

If anything casual players seem to bee more entitled that hardcore players.

#13 Feathermoore

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:06 PM

We do not allow political discussions here. And this is starting off on a bad foot. Sorry.

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