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#121 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

If you think most of the players you mention inguild not playing lower levels, are on their actual level just carried by others playing properly, still pretending to be an elite.. ^_^

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 21 November 2012 - 01:37 PM.


#122 JimC

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

"This is nothing personal but i've already done my share of running lower levels to the point where i'm going to pass on anything below level 5."

"I don't particularly want to perpetually re-run levels 1-3, either. Particularly because what happens is this: we run a lower level for someone to get up to OUR level, and as soon as we get them to that level they say "oh, guys - I have to leave. Thanks for the run!"


Actual quotes from my guild forum. We are a laid back, casual guild. The mechanics of FotM this behaviour, and its sad.

#123 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

Try a guild with lv18+ players now , they don't have have time to waste anwering a noob (i love to chat, i answer) ^_^
Where is that guy talking about "run with your guild"? :P

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 21 November 2012 - 01:47 PM.


#124 Var

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

It's rare to see a poster make such a post as this one. So full of apparent reasoning, yet so full of self-contradiction and incorrect implications.

Ehh. Thanks?

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Agreed though that letting your heroes run Discordway or something was *ed up but really no different than joining a zerg in GW2.

The zerg of GW2 is an irrelevant point since we're discussing FotM which has neither graveyard zerging nor a zerg of any size unless five people is now a zerg. Heroes are a glaring point of issue in GW1 where player skill was thrown out the window for sponsored botting.

For saying I am self-contradicting, you sure did veer off point in order to find a route around the hero issue.

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

However, you are missing an important point. Taking "a billion damage for moving" in DoA is a limitation of resources! It is a tactical decision, where you must weigh the trade-off of moving and having to heal vs. the damage you'll take if you remain standing. Your position is a resource, translatable to energy, which is translatable to time. Time is the ultimate resource in GW1, and your ability to correctly translate resource values and then apply the value judgements is player skill. The same goes for GW2, but as you say, there are fewer resources to translate between. You have the skill cooldowns and you have the invulnerability jump bar. The game is simplistic enough that you don't even need to consider other team members' cooldowns.

I mean, yes, we have less cooldowns in this game but the likes of DoA: Enrage, and the forms of world debuff, are not paragons of good game design. They are cheap difficulty spikes by doing (surprise surprise) nothing short of the very thing you're complaining about here: the monsters doing more damage. Except that in the case of GW1 there was no way to "turn off" enrage and still farm the rewards (and there was no way to turn off those debuffs either until much later).

And let's just put them into perspective:
- In GW1 the world debuffs worked to add attention on resources (cooldowns, energy, and movement)
- In GW2 the agony mechanic (aside from jade maw) works to add attention on resources (cooldowns, movement, and dodge energy)

Now, on the topics of resources, we have less no doubt but I do not agree that paying attention to your teammates is non-existent but this may be purely personal experience since none of my friends or I don't have the abilities to avoid everything ever and will sometimes have to cycle buffs and bubbles to survive tight spots, or when someone's heal cooldown is immediately followed by an unfortunate boss slap.

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

FotM does not teach you new mechanics all the time. After a while, the only increase in "difficulty" is an increase in agony.

That seems like a very reasonable thing to expect and I cannot imagine how you'd reach any other conclusion. There are only a finite number of things that a boss can do and the dungeon is tiered in its mechanics almost entirely within the first ten levels (and, probably not by chance, also the ten levels within which all of the important gear is contained). I see no issue with setting the genuine difficulty (no agony) curve such that it is only relevant to those pursuing the thing that matters which is the ascended gear. The agony is just for people who want to invest more and more time for what, ultimately, amounts to skins and money, both of which they'd have gotten anyway due to said excess time at their disposal. This just gives them something to do if they want it...

Would this discussion (this last quote, I mean) even exist if the dungeon didn't have agony and simply stopped at level 10?

Edited by Var, 21 November 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#125 Sinful01

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 November 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

ive been reading thorugh this thread and honestly?  the majority of the complaints stem from the fact that people are having a hard time getting into groups.  for a number of reasons.

but i think its mainly because of other players.  players are preventing other players from getting into groups.  the elitism, the segregation, the unhelpful etc.

and instead of the community banding together and just grouping, they blame the game design for being designed in a way that enables players to act this way.

i guess you are either the glass half full or the glass half empty sort of person.

*EDIT - the word "enables" was bolded to reflect the fact that the game does not inherently force nor promote the above stated player behavior, but it does nothing to stop it and thus, allows them to act that way.  so it still cant be directly and solely blamed.

I agree with you. What beauty there is, though, when the game doesn't act as an enabler. This is what many felt before FotM & Ascended gear went in. A lot of the complaints about Ascended gear, the 'treadmill', the 'slippery slope', they all point to people being upset the game just hopped the fence into that nasty realm of enablement.

Prior to FotM, it was far easier to pop into guild chat and ask if anyone wanted to run a specific dungeon, or WvW for a bit, and get a positive response.  People had plateaued (wow that is a lot of vowels at once) and it made our inherently loose-knit communities of players with different schedules, goals, play times, etc, tighter knit.

Overnight I went from a relaxing, easier-to-find-groups situation to a chug-chug-chug mentality of rushing and pushing content-per-hour.  Guild members won't help each other because it is "setting them back" or "wasting their limited time" to help a couple people do level 3 of FotM when they're already on level 7.

#126 Kratimas

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

View PostBennyandthejets, on 21 November 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Prior to fractals, "anyone" could join any dungeon group.  There was complete freedom.  The only restriction being level requirements.  With the introduction of fractals this is no longer the case.  Lets say you are unable to log on for a month or two, you come back & want to play wit your friends/guild members.  They are on fractal 18.  Your at 3.  You are a very exceptionally skilled player & could easily handle 18, but because you have not climbed the fractal ladder, the only way for your friends/guild members to play with you is to drop down to 3 or not play with you at all.  Its just a silly content gating that has no place in a MMO that is supposed to be about freedom & allowing the player to play as he/she chooses.  Designs like this should be left to WoW/Rift etc

But if they are your guild and friends wouldn't they go with you and help get you to 18.

I know my guild would.

It seems to me that if you are this "very exceptionally skilled player" then your guild or friends would fall over themselves to get you up with them.

Also you said "There was complete freedom.  The only restriction being level requirements. " is this not the same thing? They are bumping you to 80 then you have to level threw the fractals to get to the next set of dungeons. Just like you have to level from 30 to 40 to get to the next dungeon.

I guess I don't understand why people are having such problems with this concept. It seems like the same concept they used from the get go, when it comes to the instanced areas.

***** edit *****
Just wanted to add I do like the idea of them getting harder as you go, I like to progress threw things and learn how to do them as I go. I don't see it as gated content because anyone can do them.

Edited by Kratimas, 21 November 2012 - 02:23 PM.


#127 raspberry jam

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

View PostVar, on 21 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Ehh. Thanks?



The zerg of GW2 is an irrelevant point since we're discussing FotM which has neither graveyard zerging nor a zerg of any size unless five people is now a zerg. Heroes are a glaring point of issue in GW1 where player skill was thrown out the window for sponsored botting.

For saying I am self-contradicting, you sure did veer off point in order to find a route around the hero issue.



I mean, yes, we have less cooldowns in this game but the likes of DoA: Enrage, and the forms of world debuff, are not paragons of good game design. They are cheap difficulty spikes by doing (surprise surprise) nothing short of the very thing you're complaining about here: the monsters doing more damage. Except that in the case of GW1 there was no way to "turn off" enrage and still farm the rewards (and there was no way to turn off those debuffs either until much later).

And let's just put them into perspective:
- In GW1 the world debuffs worked to add attention on resources (cooldowns, energy, and movement)
- In GW2 the agony mechanic (aside from jade maw) works to add attention on resources (cooldowns, movement, and dodge energy)

Now, on the topics of resources, we have less no doubt but I do not agree that paying attention to your teammates is non-existent but this may be purely personal experience since none of my friends or I don't have the abilities to avoid everything ever and will sometimes have to cycle buffs and bubbles to survive tight spots, or when someone's heal cooldown is immediately followed by an unfortunate boss slap.



That seems like a very reasonable thing to expect and I cannot imagine how you'd reach any other conclusion. There are only a finite number of things that a boss can do and the dungeon is tiered in its mechanics almost entirely within the first ten levels (and, probably not by chance, also the ten levels within which all of the important gear is contained). I see no issue with setting the genuine difficulty (no agony) curve such that it is only relevant to those pursuing the thing that matters which is the ascended gear. The agony is just for people who want to invest more and more time for what, ultimately, amounts to skins and money, both of which they'd have gotten anyway due to said excess time at their disposal. This just gives them something to do if they want it...

Would this discussion (this last quote, I mean) even exist if the dungeon didn't have agony and simply stopped at level 10?
You're welcome. If we are discussing FotM, GW1 heroes are not an issue. Using Discordway/Sabway or similar in for example UW took a metric ton of micromanagement, voiding the point that you could tab-space your way to victory. Heroes worked like that for stuff like vanquishing, which is more or less the same thing as Plinx farm and other zerg events (as in, mindless kill everything).

Enrage is stupid game design, I agree. Global, map-dependent debuff isn't, as it increases the amount of tactical decisions required of the player instead of merely changing certain values in said decisions. E.g. Repressive Energy makes you lose 2 energy every time you attack or use a skill. This does not only change skill costs (thus changing which skills are economically sound to use and not), but also introduce a new energy cost on attacking - and thus on adrenaline gain. Eviscerate now costs 18 energy to use (not really but you get it).

You forgot one thing... In GW1, global debuffs not only added attention to resources, but also to spec. You built for being able to handle the debuffs. In GW2, you don't want to constantly pay for respec, so you build only rarely.
Also, agony does not only add attention to resources but also to equipment. Having enough infusions means that you can withstand agony better, allowing you to shrug it off due to your gear instead of having to deal with it yourself.

I don't understand either how you could expect that the dungeon keeps introducing new mechanics, yet it was you who said that it did.

And no, agony isn't for "people who want to invest more and more time for what, ultimately, amounts to skins and money, both of which they'd have gotten anyway due to said excess time at their disposal" because these things (ascended gear/infusions) didn't exist at all previous to the introduction of FotM.

This is what I meant when I said that your post was full of incorrect implications.

#128 Var

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

You forgot one thing... In GW1, global debuffs not only added attention to resources, but also to spec. You built for being able to handle the debuffs. In GW2, you don't want to constantly pay for respec, so you build only rarely.

Constantly pay 3s? That's hardly more than a waypoint cost at 80, if people have trouble fronting respeccing, that's a different matter entirely. My issue with the global debuffs is simply that they are entirely unavoidable and inspire the creation of builds that do not "deal" with them but simply find ways to subvert them. Skill based debuff of that sort should be mob applied and avoidable or at least removable ala the wurm skills that appeared in EotN. The global debuff is just a barrier of entry on certain builds no matter how skilled a player may be while being best pals with other builds that either remain wholly stationary (the spirit builds) or unkillable anyway (imbaway).

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

I don't understand either how you could expect that the dungeon keeps introducing new mechanics, yet it was you who said that it did.

Perhaps my wording was wrong, I meant it as: the difficulty in mechanics is scaled without agony, after that its a numbers game where error is more and more punished until success simply becomes impossible. The latter scenario is akin to how I view DoA and much of GW1 operating when not using "the" builds for the area but it gives people irrelevant numbers to chase. The former is how I wish more things were designed.

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

And no, agony isn't for "people who want to invest more and more time for what, ultimately, amounts to skins and money, both of which they'd have gotten anyway due to said excess time at their disposal" because these things (ascended gear/infusions) didn't exist at all previous to the introduction of FotM.

No, that's exactly what agony is after level 10. There is nothing new beyond that except skins and infused rings... and if you're not chasing the depths of fractals why does the infused ring matter? You can buy/make all of the current infusion slots in the MF or buy them without ever passing depth 10.

Ascended gear in and of itself being new stats is a different matter entirely, I'm speaking simply of going beyond level 10 of Fractals.

#129 Darkobra

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

racism?

His English isn't his strong point. What he really means is bias towards certain classes.

#130 Racthoh

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Enrage is stupid game design, I agree. Global, map-dependent debuff isn't, as it increases the amount of tactical decisions required of the player instead of merely changing certain values in said decisions. E.g. Repressive Energy makes you lose 2 energy every time you attack or use a skill. This does not only change skill costs (thus changing which skills are economically sound to use and not), but also introduce a new energy cost on attacking - and thus on adrenaline gain. Eviscerate now costs 18 energy to use (not really but you get it).

You forgot one thing... In GW1, global debuffs not only added attention to resources, but also to spec.
Enrage made you focus on spec as well as it discouraged the heavy use of AoE damage. It was punishment just as much as it was bringing physicals into Ravenheart Gloom (50% miss chance). An enraged blind/snared/dazed target was of no threat, and spotting which targets became enraged was simple. Every class had tools to deal with Enraged but environmental effects made some classes in inherently weaker. Of the two I would say the latter was poorer game design.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#131 badra al duun

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

I have a single comment on this topic, which is that as long as Lions Arch remains in overflow mode, you can kind of work around this tiering limitation while pugging, by cycling through overflows while LFG/LFM.  In a way, simply having an overflow is a way that you can grab other interested parties from all servers.

As soon as my base world pop drops such that I can't get into overflow, it's going to be very difficult to find random groupings.

#132 raspberry jam

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostVar, on 21 November 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Constantly pay 3s? That's hardly more than a waypoint cost at 80, if people have trouble fronting respeccing, that's a different matter entirely. My issue with the global debuffs is simply that they are entirely unavoidable and inspire the creation of builds that do not "deal" with them but simply find ways to subvert them. Skill based debuff of that sort should be mob applied and avoidable or at least removable ala the wurm skills that appeared in EotN. The global debuff is just a barrier of entry on certain builds no matter how skilled a player may be while being best pals with other builds that either remain wholly stationary (the spirit builds) or unkillable anyway (imbaway).



Perhaps my wording was wrong, I meant it as: the difficulty in mechanics is scaled without agony, after that its a numbers game where error is more and more punished until success simply becomes impossible. The latter scenario is akin to how I view DoA and much of GW1 operating when not using "the" builds for the area but it gives people irrelevant numbers to chase. The former is how I wish more things were designed.



No, that's exactly what agony is after level 10. There is nothing new beyond that except skins and infused rings... and if you're not chasing the depths of fractals why does the infused ring matter? You can buy/make all of the current infusion slots in the MF or buy them without ever passing depth 10.

Ascended gear in and of itself being new stats is a different matter entirely, I'm speaking simply of going beyond level 10 of Fractals.
A grandmaster's manual costs 3g, not 3s. And a lot of people state that they walk rather than pay the waypoint fee.

Yes, subverting a global debuff is dealing with it - in a strategic way instead of a tactical one. Of course, that build involves other tradeoffs since you only have 8 skill slots, etc., meaning that when you run the build that automatically deals with the debuff, you won't have access to the same tools you would otherwise. That is the entire point of the debuff... Forcing players to deal with situations in other ways than standard, so that their skill is challenged.

Ascended gear is not different. Yes you can waste money in the mystic forge while hoping to get an ascended item or you can get money in FotM while hoping to get an ascended item... It seems obvious which choice is the best one, unless you have so much money that you can go for legendaries directly and then uninstall the game since you have beaten it.

Yes, I agree with you about how things should be designed, but then that means that I wonder why you like content that just crank up the numbers.

#133 raspberry jam

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

View PostRacthoh, on 21 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Enrage made you focus on spec as well as it discouraged the heavy use of AoE damage. It was punishment just as much as it was bringing physicals into Ravenheart Gloom (50% miss chance). An enraged blind/snared/dazed target was of no threat, and spotting which targets became enraged was simple. Every class had tools to deal with Enraged but environmental effects made some classes in inherently weaker. Of the two I would say the latter was poorer game design.
I disagree. While Enrage was intended to discourage heavy AoE use, one of the most common team builds for DoA was based on a tank and a bunch of eles casting Deep Freeze and Searing Flames.
I agree though that some of the effects discouraged use of certain classes. Others just meant you had to build for them, and use certain tactics.

#134 Var

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

A grandmaster's manual costs 3g, not 3s. And a lot of people state that they walk rather than pay the waypoint fee.


Currently in class so I will keep this short: you cannot use the grandmaster book more than once. The trainers have a 3s cost to unallocate all traits. I do this almost daily, I know the price.

Edited by Var, 21 November 2012 - 04:05 PM.


#135 raspberry jam

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

View PostVar, on 21 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Currently in class so I will keep this short: you cannot use the grandmaster book more than once. The trainers have a 3s cost to unallocate all traits. I do this almost daily, I know the price.
What the * was I doing, planning my traits so carefully. Hahaha. Thank you. :lol:

#136 geulsae

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

View Postbadra al duun, on 19 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm betting that changes shortly.  Fotm is new, and necessary for your monthly.  After that, the dungeon crowd will go back to the dungeons (just less of them).
Actually, it's happening now. Last night, more and more people were doing regular dungeons than fractals. I think the level difference plays a big role on this quick jump ship by the players; majority of fractals LFM were high levels - newcomers can't join.

#137 RedStar

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:58 PM

View Postgeulsae, on 21 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Actually, it's happening now. Last night, more and more people were doing regular dungeons than fractals. I think the level difference plays a big role on this quick jump ship by the players; majority of fractals LFM were high levels - newcomers can't join.

Then newcomers should try to create a group instead of sitting around waiting for someone to ask them if they want to come.

Sometime we (3-4 of us) sort of go AFK in front of CM for like 20-30 minutes, then we come back and see a dude hanging around the door (he was there before we went AFK). We check the chat to see if anyone is looking for a group and the instant we put "LFG" the guy asks us if can join.
...
He sat there for 30+ minutes waiting for an invite instead of starting his own group. And it's not an isolated case.
I hate starting groups, but when I want to do something, I rather make the first step than sit around wondering if anyone else is doing what I'm doing.

#138 sanctuaire

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

don't you think people who have trouble finding groups aren't already doing this?

as the levels widen between old and new players, or alt chars as it were,
the segregation will only get worse.
and yes, a couple of days back, our group was
already split into 3 overflows, each recruiting on the map for same lvl members.

in any game, its always a bad situation where you wait for members longer
than you would have blazed through the content

at least in WvW, you can queue for it, and you're not stuck in 1 map
just recruiting while waiting to get in.
.

Edited by sanctuaire, 21 November 2012 - 10:12 PM.


#139 Dasryn

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostSinful01, on 21 November 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

a chug-chug-chug mentality of rushing and pushing content-per-hour.  Guild members won't help each other because it is "setting them back" or "wasting their limited time" to help a couple people do level 3 of FotM when they're already on level 7.

i blame the players for this though.  the game's job is to offer content, and make that content worth your time.  people, the players, these individuals are what's rotting the idea.

ANet isnt promoting that behavior but think of things from their perspective.  just last week every thread on the 1st page here was about lack of things to do in GW2, now the WoW-esque content people really wanted is here and now people are complaining about the segregation happening in the game.

Anet is stuck between a rock and a hard place, damned if they do, damned if they dont.  its not fair to place all the blame on them.

that being said, i dont see anything in the game forcing people to act the way they are, nor is it being promoted.

its just happening because youve got some really misplaced prioritized people that play these types of games.  its a simple fact.

TL:DR - blame the player base, it really is their fault.  what to do with these players is the real problem.

Edited by Rickter, 21 November 2012 - 09:39 PM.


#140 sanctuaire

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

its just simple human nature,
anet lacked the foresight on how people would normally react.
you don't need a promotion of an idea,
or to have a degree in psychology to easily predict that this would happen.

personally have experienced what sinful said that even
"...Guild members won't help each other because it is "setting them back" or "wasting their limited time" to
help a couple people do level 3 of FotM when they're already on level 7" or something similar.

there have been already numerous suggestions on how to counter this.
from getting rid of the lowest common level altogether, to having a level bridge
with higher players. for example, a lvl 5 guildie plays along with his lvl 10 buddies,
they would still get in fractal lvl 10, but even after completing it, the lvl 5 one will
only get to lvl 6.

.

Edited by sanctuaire, 21 November 2012 - 10:10 PM.


#141 Dasryn

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:12 PM

View Postsanctuaire, on 21 November 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

its just simple human nature,
anet lacked the foresight on how people would normally react.
you don't need a promotion of an idea,
or have to have a degree in psychology to easily predict that this would happen.

personally have experienced what sinful said that even
"...Guild members won't help each other because it is "setting them back" or "wasting their limited time" to
help a couple people do level 3 of FotM when they're already on level 7" or something similar.

there have been already numerous suggestions on how to counter this.
from getting rid of the lowest common level altogether, to having a level bridge
with higher players. for example, a lvl 5 guildie plays along with his lvl 10 buddies,
they would still get in fractal lvl 10, but even after completing it, the lvl 5 one will
only get to lvl 6.

.

but why is it up to ANet to limit/alter the content to get control over these types of people?  ANet is not responsible for the way you act.  you are and no one else.

i say, make it ToS that if you try and discriminate in this manner, its punisable by ban/ perma ban just like the naming policy and lanuguage policy.

that'll get people to shape up and have more patience with the rest of their community.

man. . . idk if i shouldve written that, i can sense the community getting all tense and defensive about that last statement. . .

#142 sanctuaire

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 November 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

but why is it up to ANet to limit/alter the content to get control over these types of people?  ANet is not responsible for the way you act.  you are and no one else.

i say, make it ToS that if you try and discriminate in this manner, its punisable by ban/ perma ban just like the naming policy and lanuguage policy.

that'll get people to shape up and have more patience with the rest of their community.

man. . . idk if i shouldve written that, i can sense the community getting all tense and defensive about that last statement. . .

you very well know that anet will never make a ToS
rule with something silly like that.

how will you even enforce against this 'discrimination' of
getting into the same level group anyway?

humans always respond better, and quicker to rewards rather
than punishments. give them a reason, and incentive to do it,
and you don't need a ToS rule that absolutely no one will follow.

yes, you can very well say that they're not responsible for the way you act.
but doesn't it prevent them from guiding people to a specific set of
predetermined obvious set of reactions?

carrot-on-a-stick, shinies, whatever you call them, create the need,
and give a specific set of rules, and people will almost always
select and do the most efficient way of doing it.
consequences for others take a backseat.

......

and that line of reasoning is very dangerous my friend.
in the same line of thought, you can also say
"why does anet need to improve on several unbalanced/
broken game mechanics that make people act in a certain way?"
if that's the case, what's anet really responsible for anyway?

its like we already paid for the game, and should they even bother
to improve obviously broken implementations?

.

#143 Dasryn

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

View Postsanctuaire, on 21 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

its like we already paid for the game, and should they even bother
to improve obviously broken implementations?

they can make it ToS to discourage that discrimination.  put in the terms of service that its not allowed, then have some one attach screenshot of being turned down by use of said discrimination and viola, chat stamp proofed ban.

and i never said to ignore obviously broken game implementations.  i never once said that.  please do NOT twist my words because people who read my post and disagree, then read your post and take it as truth because they didnt agree with me in the first place when i never said anything like it.

the issue here is that nothing is inherently broken.  the content is there and it is supposed to provide a sense of accomplishment and player progression.  thats the purpose of the levels of the FotM.  the ascended gear is for the min/maxers that GW2 must cater to.  players are abusing and twisting the ideal.  thats not on ANet, thats on the player base.

they must cater to those individuals in some way because of the broader appeal of the GW franchise they are trying to acheive with GW2.

Edited by Rickter, 21 November 2012 - 10:34 PM.


#144 sanctuaire

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

as said before,

you very well know that
a rule like that would never happen,
and players would never follow it.

has any mmo in the history of mmos
can get you banned since you didn't want to
take in a random person as a party member?
that's just preposterous.

best anet can do is with the previous suggestions on the
lowest common level.

and when you are waiting to form a party much
longer than you would have run a complete fractal level,
the grouping system for fractals IS pretty much broken.

and that kind of reasoning is on the same level.
broken implemention or broken set of rules for people to act that way

Edited by sanctuaire, 22 November 2012 - 01:57 AM.


#145 Hector

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:03 AM

View PostKratimas, on 20 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

For example if I have never ran a fractal before, that makes me a lvl 1.

So, you are saying I should be upset because I can't join a group that is lvl 10, which gives me a chance at much better loot then the lvl 1 dungeons, that they have taken the time to go threw.

I am not trying to be mean, I am just trying to understand if that is what you are trying to say.
He is saying the whole system is stupid and counter productive to the whole team concept MMOs are supposed to be known for.

#146 Var

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

Ok, I have some time for a longer post. Hopefully that 3s re-traiting helped you out. Have you been playing this game with one build since launch? I can see how that would get boring and not very GWs-y.

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Yes, subverting a global debuff is dealing with it - in a strategic way instead of a tactical one. Of course, that build involves other tradeoffs since you only have 8 skill slots, etc., meaning that when you run the build that automatically deals with the debuff, you won't have access to the same tools you would otherwise. That is the entire point of the debuff... Forcing players to deal with situations in other ways than standard, so that their skill is challenged.

Subverting the global debuff in some situations meant: do not take class X because they are useless. No amount of player skill can circumvent 50% miss chance with a warrior. Unless you want him to run hamstorm or wamo specs with almost none of the ham or wa on his bar. Some classes had ways around it, Dervishes could run support, Assassin could run less than optimal caster roles (while losing their entire principal trait line), but others were SoL: Paragons can't gain adrenaline if they can't hit, warriors might as well have had an ele training them with blinding flash the whole time. This is not good game-play design.

The debuffs in the factions missions were also garbage but at least you could "deal" with them by killing the source. I don't like global debuff "X" sorts of design, they walk a fine line of creating class-exclusion player reaction and simply add frustration rather than difficulty. Enrage is garbage but at least you can deal with it.

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Ascended gear is not different. Yes you can waste money in the mystic forge while hoping to get an ascended item or you can get money in FotM while hoping to get an ascended item... It seems obvious which choice is the best one, unless you have so much money that you can go for legendaries directly and then uninstall the game since you have beaten it.

There is no "hoping" on the Mystic Forge. Its an exact recipe and you know exactly what you'll get. This is no different from crafting except that it requires some adventuring from the community (ie. the wealthy people who'll do it anyway) to discover the recipe. "Hoping" from the mystic forge is chasing the precursors but these items have no precursors. They have: T6 mats (which can range from expensive to dirt cheap, want a ascended back slot? Ancient Bones), 50 ectoplasm (which may or may not take a while), 24 skill points, and an essence from the FotM which requires all of a couple of runs to get, though, honestly, you should be able to buy essences, globs (of not ectoplasm), and whatever tier follows, from the vendor for the relics.

I really don't know why they put the rings at 10 and gave them no recipe... this, yes I agree, was poorly placed but, at the same time, it only need level 10. Should it be able to be purchased or made much like the backslot? I think so. Why didn't they do it? No clue. (Or maybe it is a recipe... and we just haven't found it!)

View Postraspberry jam, on 21 November 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Yes, I agree with you about how things should be designed, but then that means that I wonder why you like content that just crank up the numbers.

I never said I liked content that just cranks up numbers (though I apologize if I made it seem so). I said I like the design of the FotM levels and do not mind Agony as it has been implemented because its not just Radiance ala LotR. It appears for the first time on level 10 but at that point I would rather consider it a new mechanic rather than just scaling of numbers (which is what happens at later levels). Its something to be dealt with by not being hit (as it is only applied by certain skills of the bosses, and you learn which ones you MUST avoid and which ones you can take to the face to save a dodge) or knowing how to rotate cooldowns. The jade maw encounter is the only tricky one but just about every class can counter the agony mechanic at level 10. It is also at level 10 that I get the rings that I need to have BiS, and am effectively done needing to go any deeper and worry about more and more agony stacks just to chase some skins (which is the point at which the cranking of numbers begins).

If I want to chase some skins, I have to put in some time to grind up +Agony resistance but me having +1000 agony or +5 agony isn't going to break the WvW or PvE. Yes, Ascended Gear, in and of itself, introduces a problem with larger numbers on real stats but the infusions for agony resistance are a different matter and are self-contained to the Fractals.

Do I think they could have done this better? Yes.
Do I think they needed to add stats to ascended? No.
Is the game suddenly ruined because of this? No, not yet.
Will I be happier if they make these items into rewards from other dungeons and other forms of play? Yes.

Edited by Var, 22 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.


#147 raspberry jam

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

View PostVar, on 22 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Ok, I have some time for a longer post. Hopefully that 3s re-traiting helped you out. Have you been playing this game with one build since launch? I can see how that would get boring and not very GWs-y.



Subverting the global debuff in some situations meant: do not take class X because they are useless. No amount of player skill can circumvent 50% miss chance with a warrior. Unless you want him to run hamstorm or wamo specs with almost none of the ham or wa on his bar. Some classes had ways around it, Dervishes could run support, Assassin could run less than optimal caster roles (while losing their entire principal trait line), but others were SoL: Paragons can't gain adrenaline if they can't hit, warriors might as well have had an ele training them with blinding flash the whole time. This is not good game-play design.

The debuffs in the factions missions were also garbage but at least you could "deal" with them by killing the source. I don't like global debuff "X" sorts of design, they walk a fine line of creating class-exclusion player reaction and simply add frustration rather than difficulty. Enrage is garbage but at least you can deal with it.



There is no "hoping" on the Mystic Forge. Its an exact recipe and you know exactly what you'll get. This is no different from crafting except that it requires some adventuring from the community (ie. the wealthy people who'll do it anyway) to discover the recipe. "Hoping" from the mystic forge is chasing the precursors but these items have no precursors. They have: T6 mats (which can range from expensive to dirt cheap, want a ascended back slot? Ancient Bones), 50 ectoplasm (which may or may not take a while), 24 skill points, and an essence from the FotM which requires all of a couple of runs to get, though, honestly, you should be able to buy essences, globs (of not ectoplasm), and whatever tier follows, from the vendor for the relics.

I really don't know why they put the rings at 10 and gave them no recipe... this, yes I agree, was poorly placed but, at the same time, it only need level 10. Should it be able to be purchased or made much like the backslot? I think so. Why didn't they do it? No clue. (Or maybe it is a recipe... and we just haven't found it!)



I never said I liked content that just cranks up numbers (though I apologize if I made it seem so). I said I like the design of the FotM levels and do not mind Agony as it has been implemented because its not just Radiance ala LotR. It appears for the first time on level 10 but at that point I would rather consider it a new mechanic rather than just scaling of numbers (which is what happens at later levels). Its something to be dealt with by not being hit (as it is only applied by certain skills of the bosses, and you learn which ones you MUST avoid and which ones you can take to the face to save a dodge) or knowing how to rotate cooldowns. The jade maw encounter is the only tricky one but just about every class can counter the agony mechanic at level 10. It is also at level 10 that I get the rings that I need to have BiS, and am effectively done needing to go any deeper and worry about more and more agony stacks just to chase some skins (which is the point at which the cranking of numbers begins).

If I want to chase some skins, I have to put in some time to grind up +Agony resistance but me having +1000 agony or +5 agony isn't going to break the WvW or PvE. Yes, Ascended Gear, in and of itself, introduces a problem with larger numbers on real stats but the infusions for agony resistance are a different matter and are self-contained to the Fractals.

Do I think they could have done this better? Yes.
Do I think they needed to add stats to ascended? No.
Is the game suddenly ruined because of this? No, not yet.
Will I be happier if they make these items into rewards from other dungeons and other forms of play? Yes.
Yeah, single build - or, well, no whenever I bought a manual I would respec. Haven't played for quite some time, since Hitman Absolution and Dishonored were released... I have been busy. :) Not that I feel a draw towards GW2 anyway, not as it is right now.

My guild used two IW warriors in Gloom. Worked ok-ish, but I would not recommend it. Anyway, that a global debuff encourages you to not take class X doesn't mean that global debuffs is bad design - it means that fixed classes is bad design, since they prevent players from fully adapting to the new rules. Imagine a game where a warrior could take off his armor and thus become a spellcaster of some sorts. In GW1 you can almost replicate this situation by having one alt of each class, but it's kind of annoying to get (and keep) 10 characters up to date in everything.

I didn't know that ascendeds had recipes. That's good. Except for the rings but oh well. Infusions, by the way, do affect WvW and non-FotM PvE because they have more bonuses to them than simply agony resistance. I know because I checked on the wiki ;)

Anyway, so basically you agree with me on what agony is... you say that they could have done it better, I fail to see how though, since this is in line with the rest of the design. And yet you say that you like FotM. I still wonder why.

#148 Sinful01

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

they can make it ToS to discourage that discrimination.  put in the terms of service that its not allowed, then have some one attach screenshot of being turned down by use of said discrimination and viola, chat stamp proofed ban.

Can't tell if serious. O.o

So, by your posts: ANet overlooking (or just not caring) that adding a gating mechanism like "FotM levels" to the game leads to players acting in their personal best interest and stepping on others isn't ANets fault ... it is the player's faults for acting like big meanieface jerks.

But your suggestion is to attempt to ban players for saying 'no' and not doing lower level FotMs when people ask?  You're banning people for exercising the freedom to say 'no'?  I could just run around sending tells to people I dislike, asking them to do FotM 3 and try and catch people saying 'no' wrong, muahahaha ban time!

Doing this would also be a massive PITA for ANet staff to deal with.  It isn't really "discrimination" in the commonly used sense of the word. It also is nearly unenforceable.  People will just answer "no thanks, I may have to log soon" instead of "no way, I'm not doing level 3 it isn't worth my time."

Oh wait, I know!  If someone says "I can't do FotM3, I have to log soon, sorry" I'll just wait and if they don't log I'll screenshot THAT and see if I can get them banned for it!

LOL .. sorry, hyperbole aside .. I still hope you were just joking with that suggestion. :)


Quote

the issue here is that nothing is inherently broken.  the content is there and it is supposed to provide a sense of accomplishment and player progression.  thats the purpose of the levels of the FotM.  the ascended gear is for the min/maxers that GW2 must cater to.  players are abusing and twisting the ideal.  thats not on ANet, thats on the player base.

they must cater to those individuals in some way because of the broader appeal of the GW franchise they are trying to acheive with GW2.

ANet couldn't have NOT seen this coming, it happens already with the regular dungeons.  People cannot easily find groups for 'Story Mode' because the rewards "suck" compared to explorable modes. Luckily, you can skip Story Mode if someone in your group has already done it and do explorable with your friends/guildies/whatever so you're not stopped from playing with your friends.  Good luck if you ever want to get story mode done though!  I know I've only got 3 Story Modes done, that I did the first couple weeks after release and I haven't been able to find a group (even guildies) that will do the other ones I need.  No reward for them = they're "wasting their time".  Guess what, I've done it to people too sadly.  I won't redo the 3 Story Modes I already did, because the dungeons are crummy and it feels like a punishment to have to do them again without the reward.***

*** Big point here.  If the content isn't "fun", players are only doing it for the reward.  Doing things "just for the loot" turns it into that selfish mess people are currently complaining about. ANet should know by now that players take the path of least resistance, and that humans are inherently selfish beings. (Yeah yeah, I'm a cynic.)

If they added Ascended to WvW tomorrow but made it easy to get, people that loathe PvP and/or WvW but love FotM will be in WvW the instant the server comes up, QQing about being "forced" to PvP for their gear ... or QQing on the forums that those expletive pvpers get THEIR gear "easier" than dungeoneers do and that isn't fair, so ANet must nerf it.

#149 n00854180t

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

View Postsyndreamer, on 18 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Now as a requirement for most runs:

1. Have all exotics
2. Must be level 80
3. Must know mechanics of each fractal by level 2
4. Must have stable connection.

Happy instancing!

5. Have insanely good luck so that the dungeon doesn't bug on you/drop half the players and screw you out of continuing to the next level (last night level 8 FotM, it bugged and left everyone as charr after the invasion map, so everyone was charr during Jade Maw, and it caused the Reflecting Crystals to be un-interactable).

#150 RedStar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:14 PM

I'm probably sure this has been said before and not a lot of people in this thread like this but : Find a nice guild.

A few weeks ago people were complaining that guilds in GW2 are useless. Now we have a dungeon that unfortunately attracts a lot of idiots and nice players can't find a group. Find a nice guild. I'm fairly certain that a nice guild that do dungeons exists somewhere on your server.




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