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Sword/Dagger Loyalty


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#1 Aranami

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:23 PM

I'm still playing S/D and having tremendous success with it.  I can no longer crush guardians but I still eat mesmers alive, and I actually find Dagger/Dagger thieves easier to deal with.  I'm having the same amount of success with SB after the Cluster Bomb nerf.  I don't parse numbers, but I feel like my autoattack damage has somehow gone up with it.

The patch notes were extremely disheartening, but actual gameplay is telling a different story.

I can't explain any of this with numbers or science, but I have seen a serious increase in the threat that I pose to other players.  I have been reading a lot of posts from players who're worried that their build has been destroyed, and I just wanted to provide a little ray of sunshine and let you know that it's not true.  You don't have to go back to instagibbing to be a monster.  If you loved S/D before the patch, stick with it, friend!

#2 MrForz

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

Well it's not like you're losing any of your survivability.

#3 Korra

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

Always loyal. Even on pve.

#4 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:21 AM

All they need to do is fix flanking strike.. Not asking for much just a skill that does what it's meant to



#5 Gaaroth

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:28 AM

View PostAranami, on 19 November 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm still playing S/D and having tremendous success with it.  I can no longer crush guardians but I still eat mesmers alive, and I actually find Dagger/Dagger thieves easier to deal with.  I'm having the same amount of success with SB after the Cluster Bomb nerf.  I don't parse numbers, but I feel like my autoattack damage has somehow gone up with it.

The patch notes were extremely disheartening, but actual gameplay is telling a different story.

I can't explain any of this with numbers or science, but I have seen a serious increase in the threat that I pose to other players.  I have been reading a lot of posts from players who're worried that their build has been destroyed, and I just wanted to provide a little ray of sunshine and let you know that it's not true.  You don't have to go back to instagibbing to be a monster.  If you loved S/D before the patch, stick with it, friend!

well, i have to agree...i was so worried but i logged in , tried, and happy to see i still rock :)

#6 improvedai

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

Yeah, I am with you. I spent some time with other builds after the patch, which was fine, but when I swapped back to my faithful S/D set - the magic was indeed still there. In PvE and PvP, I'm lovin' it.

My long-term plan is to acquire Bolt on my Thief because it has to be my favorite weapon/class combo in GW2. :D

#7 Scarnah

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

I've been on S/D (10/30/30/0/0) for about 2 weeks now and I'm never going back.  The burst has never been crazy, but who needs burst when you can stick right on your target with good sustained damage?  Not to mention how hard it is to take me down.

I've found the biggest weakness of this build is in small group play.  There isn't really much you can do with combo fields besides the SB stuff.  I can still be pretty dangerous, but it is lacking some synergy.

#8 Striff3r

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostAranami, on 19 November 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm still playing S/D and having tremendous success with it.  I can no longer crush guardians but I still eat mesmers alive, and I actually find Dagger/Dagger thieves easier to deal with.  I'm having the same amount of success with SB after the Cluster Bomb nerf.  I don't parse numbers, but I feel like my autoattack damage has somehow gone up with it.

The patch notes were extremely disheartening, but actual gameplay is telling a different story.

I can't explain any of this with numbers or science, but I have seen a serious increase in the threat that I pose to other players.  I have been reading a lot of posts from players who're worried that their build has been destroyed, and I just wanted to provide a little ray of sunshine and let you know that it's not true.  You don't have to go back to instagibbing to be a monster.  If you loved S/D before the patch, stick with it, friend!

Can you please post your main build with this spect :o

#9 Aranami

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:42 AM

View PostStriff3r, on 21 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Can you please post your main build with this spect file:///C:\Users\Bry\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png

http://intothemists....-NV0G3G3G3G35BP

I guess that's my most common build, but I switch out some of the major traits and utilities depending on my performance and that of my team.

Mug, Furious Retaliation, Executioner and Infusion of Shadow for obvious reasons.  I like Critical Haste because I feel like it procs often, but I switch it out for Side Strike every so often for no particular reason.  I love Shadow Protector for all the extra healing, but I often sub in Cloaked in Shadow if I’m doing heavy group fighting, and Shadow’s Embrace for condition heavy teams.  Shadow’s Rejuvenation is probably the pinnacle of this build.  I’m in stealth extremely often so the constant healing makes me fairly tanky, and if things get real bad I can just pop Shadow Refuge and reset the fight.

I run Runes of the Scholar for the mass amounts of extra damage – especially when making use of my shortbow off point.  I always run Berserker’s Amulet, but I’ll alternate Knight’s Jewel and Berserker’s Jewel depending on how well I’m doing.

My sigils are pretty standard.

I mostly use the shortbow to harass the opposing team in group fights.  You can cause an unbelievable amount of damage if the other team leaves you alone to spam your auto attack and cluster bomb.  You'll also be benefiting your team with the massive amounts of combo finishers you're activating.  Area Weakness is probably my all time favorite combo finisher.

The good stuff starts when I swap to S/D, though.  I start a fight with my shortbow, so when I swap to S/D I get an easy three stacks of might, and I always try to enter melee range with Infiltrator's Strike.  One of the great things about this build is that you don't burn through initiative.  Because of that I'm able to abuse IF and Shadow Return regularly through the fight.  All of the jumping back and forth does wonders for survivability.  I find that when I’m out of endurance for dodging, Shadow Return does an admirable job of making sure big attacks are wasted on air, and not my health pool.  Plus, it’s hilarious watching backstab thieves try to catch me before their stealth runs out.

I think that covers my build, but if I've missed something let me know!

#10 BnJ

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:48 AM

It's a nice build, in fact it's my build except normally I run dagger storm.

#11 Aranami

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:59 AM

I don't do too much WvW, since I don't have a lot of time to play, so I don't have much use for Dagger Storm.  I know it's the less cheap than Thieves Guild for s/tPvP, but I don't mind the free kills.

*edit

And yeah, it's a sick build!  I got the idea from Zipzo's P/D build.  The amount of healing you get from Shadow's Rejuvenation and Leeching Venoms is ridiculous, but it translated pretty effectively over to S/D.

Edited by Aranami, 22 November 2012 - 02:02 AM.


#12 ensoriki

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

S/D sin checking in, all I play in all 3 gametypes.
Tried other stuff after the nerf...but I hate em.
P/ Anything can go kill itself.

In fact, S/D is my "shortbow" in terms of necessity, not because it's as versatile but because I'm so used to it, that going without it is uncomfortable and I don't feel for relearning the other builds.

#13 Alzun

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

View PostKorra, on 19 November 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Always loyal. Even on pve.
Semper Fi.

#14 Mursie

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

I use the 10/30/30 trait build with master of deception and blinding powder instead of the signet.  I lose speed but the cooldowns make stealth available at all times... and blinding powder on 30 sec cooldown for insta stealth is pretty nice.

I had to give up s/d though after the dancing dagger nerf.  you are honestly running around with 1 attack... tactical strike.  and your auto attack.

instead i went to d/d and s/p offhand.  this is nice.. i get the insane burst of backstab...on the opener.  after..i flip to s/p and can use stealths for tactical strike daze and auto attack.  if needed i have pistol whip...  headshot for an interrupt...black powder..and still have inf strike.

s/d just doesn't bring enough to the table over s/p...

#15 realmisr

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

^Totally untrue.

s/d is more than just tactical strike - you've got the auto attack of course, but infiltrator's strike is both a immobilize utility + gap closer + stun breaker...I guess you haven't used it much or learned to combo with it. DD was obviously nice, but let's face it, it did pretty ridiculous damage. The 50% nerf is stupid, but it could have used a 25% nerf. C+D is also extremely useful...especially since you have 30 in shadow arts, I'm surprised you'd want to do s/p since you can't stealth out of it...d/p yes, but not s/p.

s/p really doesn't shine too much without haste. Sure you've got headshot and BP, but any decent person wouldn't come melee you if you lay down BP anyway. Then what do you do? Your main source of damage is via melee as s/p, so once someone distances themselves you can only headshot them, and if you want to do any damage you have to leave your BP area.

Edited by realmisr, 22 November 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#16 Mursie

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:45 PM

^you're a moron.

s/p has inf strike as well.  commenting on an ability shared between s/d and s/p wasn't relevant to bashing why s/d isn't viable.  it isn't viable because it brings nothing else to the table that s/p doesn't already have plus more.  learn to read.. then write.

point is.  s/p gives you tact strike..inf strike...pistol whip with a stun on it... plus two way better off hand abilities now that dancing dagger is nerfed.

add to that the fact that I use trait X in crit strikes (10% chance of quickness on crit) and trust me, I feel s/p shines very well.  Finally, i use s/p for survivability and a finisher if d/d opener doesn't do so already.  opening d/d on someone...and then flipping to s/p with blinding powder, shadowstep, and refuge on a 20% cooldown reducer gives me access to tons of stealth options in s/p along with inf strike and pistol whip.  you are bashed on opener..then dazed on s/p switch using blinding powder...then caught should you get away with inf strike and locked with more dmg from pistol whip.  Of course..as you said " I guess you haven't used it much or learned to combo with it" so you likely don't understand what I'm talking about.

Edited by Mursie, 22 November 2012 - 10:48 PM.


#17 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:35 AM

^no one's a moron here mate.

You just said s/d isn't viable on a thread about how s/d IS viable so expect to get some ppl disagreeing with ya

On that note I also disagree with ya.. S/D has a much better way of getting into stealth via c+d and most of us sd users use stealth to regain health, blind cure conditions etc and then daze. It also means we don't have to use a utility just to get into stealth... Stealth is the backbone of this build which makes s/d a much better option

I got nothing against your build or playstyle,  but you really need to learn that ppl prefer different builds and playstyles to you

To everyone else, I've been trying out p/p as secondary weapon set to s/d and it seriously rocks.. Soften them up with s/d, till they get to around 50pc health, hit one last c+d,  switch to pp,  hit spider vemon (with leaching vemons trait), your sneak attack hits for nearly 3k and spider venom steals 2k of life, then u fire an unload and you have a dead opponent. Also,  shadow refuge with sneak attack combined with spider venom heals for about 6k..4.5k of that is life steal... Ppl just die while u heal...Not saying it's better than shortbow but definitely worth a try

#18 Mursie

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

^you should also learn to read.

My original post was an opinion about why I felt s/d wasn't viable in the end compared to s/p.... after the last nerf.

I was then replied to that I clearly didn't understand inf strike and how it works.  The reason the guy was a moron is because s/p has inf strike... so I didn't discuss it either way because s/d and s/p have no difference on this ability.  when evaluating the remainder...s/p is clearly superior for me.

I have no problem with others play style.  I played s/d forever and loved it before the nerf.  I do not appreciate comments that I have no clue about an ability that is shared by both s/d and s/p and I will respond in kind that making such a comment is baseless and clearly made by a complete moron.

as to c&d...i understand that stealth is key to s/d... but it is a key to gain you a tactical strike and then auto attack.  my point was that with s/p ... and the reduced cooldowns of deception utilities from the build... i feel I have plenty of stealth on demand... giving me the same access to tactical strike and auto attack.... but in addition to that I have superior upgrades on my offhand abilities and pistol whip as a very nice dmg dealer once tactical/3rd auto are off.

Edited by Mursie, 23 November 2012 - 02:09 AM.


#19 realmisr

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

View PostMursie, on 22 November 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

^you're a moron.

s/p has inf strike as well.  commenting on an ability shared between s/d and s/p wasn't relevant to bashing why s/d isn't viable.  it isn't viable because it brings nothing else to the table that s/p doesn't already have plus more.  learn to read.. then write.

point is.  s/p gives you tact strike..inf strike...pistol whip with a stun on it... plus two way better off hand abilities now that dancing dagger is nerfed.

add to that the fact that I use trait X in crit strikes (10% chance of quickness on crit) and trust me, I feel s/p shines very well.  Finally, i use s/p for survivability and a finisher if d/d opener doesn't do so already.  opening d/d on someone...and then flipping to s/p with blinding powder, shadowstep, and refuge on a 20% cooldown reducer gives me access to tons of stealth options in s/p along with inf strike and pistol whip.  you are bashed on opener..then dazed on s/p switch using blinding powder...then caught should you get away with inf strike and locked with more dmg from pistol whip.  Of course..as you said " I guess you haven't used it much or learned to combo with it" so you likely don't understand what I'm talking about.

You're calling me a moron when this is what you said?

Quote

I had to give up s/d though after the dancing dagger nerf.  you are honestly running around with 1 attack... tactical strike.  and your auto attack.

The fact that you think that s/d is about running around with 1 attack - tactical strike, and the auto attack just proves everything.

Thank you.

#20 Mursie

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

yes I'm calling you a moron.

You're welcome.

btw ... this is what i said..

Quote

I use the 10/30/30 trait build with master of deception and blinding powder instead of the signet.  I lose speed but the cooldowns make stealth available at all times... and blinding powder on 30 sec cooldown for insta stealth is pretty nice.

I had to give up s/d though after the dancing dagger nerf.  you are honestly running around with 1 attack... tactical strike.  and your auto attack.

instead i went to d/d and s/p offhand.  this is nice.. i get the insane burst of backstab...on the opener.  after..i flip to s/p and can use stealths for tactical strike daze and auto attack.  if needed i have pistol whip...  headshot for an interrupt...black powder..and still have inf strike.

s/d just doesn't bring enough to the table over s/p...

you'd make a solid news reporter though... conveniently cutting pieces out of context.  read the entire post.  hence the reason I called you a moron... due to your inability to read.

Edited by Mursie, 23 November 2012 - 08:51 PM.


#21 Virroo

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:03 AM

"My enemies usually dont move so i can drop immortal powder all the time and iam sure they will stay on it. Then i jump on people with my pistol whip and they will just stay and watch me killing them. Ofc no stun breakers and dodges" <- This is what most of s/p users think.

Trust me, it wont work. S/p is easiest thief build to counter/fight againts.

Just try it on tournament or normap high level pvp. When i see s/p thief its like free karma bag for me. S/p is almost useless after nerfs (long time ago).

Compared to s/p...even after nerfs i still can do more with s/d vs skilled enemies.


Thats all bullshit anyway, s/d, s/p, wtf/wtf...c'mon true assasins use daggers. "But i cant kill guardian with dagger!" Its always like this in mmo's. We eat clothes and we die on plates. They nerfed daze and i agree with them. We shouldnt be able to kill a guardian tank soo easy.

Edited by Virroo, 24 November 2012 - 03:46 AM.


#22 realmisr

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:06 AM

View PostMursie, on 23 November 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

yes I'm calling you a moron.

You're welcome.

btw ... this is what i said..


you'd make a solid news reporter though... conveniently cutting pieces out of context.  read the entire post.  hence the reason I called you a moron... due to your inability to read.

:) my point still stands. Keep digging yourself a bigger hole.

#23 Mursie

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:41 AM

you don't have a point because you responded to comments without reading.  Here is your response

Quote

^Totally untrue.

s/d is more than just tactical strike - you've got the auto attack of course, but infiltrator's strike is both a immobilize utility + gap closer + stun breaker...I guess you haven't used it much or learned to combo with it. DD was obviously nice, but let's face it, it did pretty ridiculous damage. The 50% nerf is stupid, but it could have used a 25% nerf. C+D is also extremely useful...especially since you have 30 in shadow arts, I'm surprised you'd want to do s/p since you can't stealth out of it...d/p yes, but not s/p.

s/p really doesn't shine too much without haste. Sure you've got headshot and BP, but any decent person wouldn't come melee you if you lay down BP anyway. Then what do you do? Your main source of damage is via melee as s/p, so once someone distances themselves you can only headshot them, and if you want to do any damage you have to leave your BP area.

1.  you note that s/d is more than just tactical strike ... it has "autoattack of course".  I noted that also.. thx for reiterating what I originally wrote.
2.  you note that s/d has infiltrator strike.  An incredibly useful tool.  That is awesome..  great find on that ability.  Wish I had that on s/p...oh wait.  I do!  This point is therefore irrelevant when commenting that s/d is inferior to s/p post nerf of last patch.  Since both use 1 and 2... commenting that s/d has #2 is not relevant in their contrast of usefulness.  Is this a difficult concept for you to understand?
3. you note that dancing dagger is indeed nerfed into the ground and sucks.  I agree.  Look we agree on something =)
4. you note that C&D is an extremely useful tool to stealth...and stealth gives regen so having this ability is great...plus tactical strike requires stealth so even better.  Finally, with a shadow arts build...C&D really helps out.  All of this is great material...good job on this.  Now here is the part you need to READ  from my post that should help clarify why your point #4 has been covered


Quote

I use the 10/30/30 trait build with master of deception and blinding powder instead of the signet.  I lose speed but the cooldowns make stealth available at all times... and blinding powder on 30 sec cooldown for insta stealth is pretty nice.

So in summary... s/d is inferior to s/p in that the contrasting abilities between the two are the following:
flanking strike vs pistol whip
dancing dagger vs headshot
c&D vs black powder

I agree that c&D vs blackpowder is an edge to s/d .... but I have that covered... you just need to read.  Stand on that - checkmate

#24 Mursie

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostVirroo, on 24 November 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

"My enemies usually dont move so i can drop immortal powder all the time and iam sure they will stay on it. Then i jump on people with my pistol whip and they will just stay and watch me killing them. Ofc no stun breakers and dodges" <- This is what most of s/p users think.

Trust me, it wont work. S/p is easiest thief build to counter/fight againts.

Just try it on tournament or normap high level pvp. When i see s/p thief its like free karma bag for me. S/p is almost useless after nerfs (long time ago).

Compared to s/p...even after nerfs i still can do more with s/d vs skilled enemies.


Thats all bullshit anywya, s/d, s/p, wtf/wtf...cmon true assasins use daggers. "But i can tkill guardian with dagger!" Its always like this in mmos. We eat clothes and we die on plates.

well I don't disagree with you that stupidity is required to truly eat a black powder.  but with that aside... Please note my original post and not the snippet that illteraterealmisr has decided to take out of context.  I use d/d with s/p as my off.  I open as a backstab thief..and apply pressure that way.  s/p is flipped to provide sustainability and survivability.  could s/d do this?  It could... but between the two sets... I find that s/d brings nothing to the table that s/p doesn't have... and s/p pistol whip..especially after an open d/d  is not at all terrible.  headshot truly is an amazing ability..interrupt on demand... and blackpowder while limited in use does have use.  c&D is the only thing I feel i'm missing between the two sets... and I feel comfortable with the new cooldown on blinding powder and the further cooldown reducer from the shadow arts line..that I have stealths on demand almost all the time.  that was the point.  blinding powder is on a 30 sec cooldown for me...refuge on a 48 sec... shadow step on a 40...hide in shadows on a 30.  that is a ton of stealth options...  and I do have c&D...but its on the d/d.

#25 Virroo

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:40 AM

Chillout, i read your posts. I just gave stright opinion about s/p. Not about your combo with d/d. Because most of people wont use 2 melee sets. For me it would be like choosing s/d or s/p for shortbow/pp combo. In this situaction i would take s/d over s/p. I agree its prolly working with d/d combo but this is my point. I wouldnt go without sb.

#26 Vexd

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

I tried S/D today, I don't really know what to do with it though. I enjoy D/D because it seems really simple to me, it's pretty much just steal, backstab then heartseeker. What do I do with S/D though? I kinda just derp around avoiding attacks and autoattacking. Apparently S/D needed a nerf? Guess I totally missed that FotM :lol:

#27 Virroo

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:52 PM

When you atack an enemy with sword (first skill) while you are stealthed (like backstab) then you daze him (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze). Before patch daze duration with sigil was 3s. Now its 1.5.

Before patch you could "almost" daze lock...

#28 Zeek Daniels

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:19 PM

I made up a build about a week ago thats doing wonders for me in 1v1 situations. Really good against ppl with lots of boons, and good at escaping. I fight 1v1 till another player on the opposing team arrives then i stealth and go hide wait for it to be 1v1 again and continue to attack.

Its easy to solo most classes and builds.

10/0/30/10/20

#29 ensoriki

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostVexd, on 24 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I tried S/D today, I don't really know what to do with it though. I enjoy D/D because it seems really simple to me, it's pretty much just steal, backstab then heartseeker. What do I do with S/D though? I kinda just derp around avoiding attacks and autoattacking. Apparently S/D needed a nerf? Guess I totally missed that FotM :lol:
The nerf was precautionary, probably because if D/D got smacked, kids would just daze spam.

Edited by ensoriki, 24 November 2012 - 10:37 PM.


#30 Invoky

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postensoriki, on 24 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

The nerf was precautionary, probably because if D/D got smacked, kids would just daze spam.

People already been daze spam. I mean, why would you not daze spam if you are going to use s/d? Hence the reason last patch daze nerf.




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