29 replies to this topic

[kambo_rambo]

To preface, the scepter skill currently does a mediocre amount of damage, and on the third combo chain, it creates a clone that casts more ether bolts.
Clones created use the #1 skill of the weapon currently equipped, and thats fine and dandy because even though they do no damage, there is usually an inherent effect. Sword clone applies vulberability, Staff clone applies one of three conditions, Greatsword clone hits multiple times (allows more bleed stack if traited), but the exception is the scepter clone. These clones do nothing but throw a negligible damage bolt every second or so, and essentially you are only keeping them around to act as a meatshield or shatter fodder.
In the betas, the #1 skill used to apply confusion, which makes sense as that was the role of the weapon.
My concern is that currently the scepter is rarely used, due to its inability to output any notably significant amount of damage or control. If Anet wants us to use scepters again, it needs to be reworked – possibly somehow applying confusion without a terrible imbalance.
Anyone share the same thoughts?

[rizipt]

Most one hand ranged weapons do less than their melee counterpart.  I don't agree with it but that's pretty consistant.  Its primary benefit is creating 'shatter fodder' at a rate far surpassing that of any other weapon.

There is something that bugs the hell out of me about those scepter clones though.  Instead of standing back with me and doing what I do, they feel compelled to charge into melee and treat that scepter like it's a club.  It's not difficult to tell which one is me.

[ObeyGiant]

rizipt, on 20 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Most one hand ranged weapons do less than their melee counterpart.  I don't agree with it but that's pretty consistant.  Its primary benefit is creating 'shatter fodder' at a rate far surpassing that of any other weapon.

There is something that bugs the hell out of me about those scepter clones though.  Instead of standing back with me and doing what I do, they feel compelled to charge into melee and treat that scepter like it's a club.  It's not difficult to tell which one is me.

If this were true, then I think the Scepter would be a pretty good weapon. But as it is now the Staff and Greatsword's clone generator are on as short or maybe even shorter when traited for cooldown than the Scepter AND they have secondary effects (might,vuln,damage,leap finisher,mini "blink"). AND AND you don't have to wait for the third hit... Countless time's I switch to my Scepter and one of my Staff clones goes down so I am like screw it, I'll get a scepter clone up and then: hit, hit, KNOCKDOWN... hit, hit, STUN, and it is impossible to even generate one of the weakest clone we have sometimes...

Something as simple as a weak confusion/bleed/burn on the auto-attack (so original I know) like the Ele/Necro scepter OR increasing the AS on it to the point where it really is the king of clone generation would go a long way towards "fixing" the weapon.

Not hating on the Scepter entirely. I use it most of the time on my Condition Mes, but really it's just a tag along. I use Staff/Pistol. The Scepter seem's like it's just tagging along because of it's range/3 skil. And the auto-attack of the Scepter seems to be tagging along with the already tagging along Scepter if that makes sense... I mean I have to go out of my way to make sure I don't accidentally spawn a Scepter clone because they are that bad?

Really I feel I get more use out of the Sword when I bring it even though it cause's no damaging condition and make's a stat on every piece of gear I have (condition damage) seem worthless.

[rizipt]

Good point on being stunned or knocked down.  They could easily find a way to be more forgiving there.  Barring that, there's no way you can trait any weapon to pop out clones faster.  Fastest clone producer we have, block with riposte and a bunch of range damage.  Sounds like three pretty decent skills.  That said, I use the scepter so I'll take any buffs they offer.  There's also something pretty cool about it I don't want to discuss.

If you don't think scepter #2 is an awesome skill I think you aren't using it.

[kambo_rambo]

Woops just realised i was meant to post this to the PvP section but i guess it still applies to pve.

[Jobuu]

They need make it so if you have 3 phantasms out it won't overwrite them with a clone. Also, the 3rd attack is too slow of a wind up. I wish it was a smoother attack like the guardian's

[Ikelos]

rizipt, on 20 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Good point on being stunned or knocked down.  They could easily find a way to be more forgiving there.  Barring that, there's no way you can trait any weapon to pop out clones faster.  Fastest clone producer we have, block with riposte and a bunch of range damage.  Sounds like three pretty decent skills.  That said, I use the scepter so I'll take any buffs they offer.  There's also something pretty cool about it I don't want to discuss.

If you don't think scepter #2 is an awesome skill I think you aren't using it.

It is by no means the fastest clone generator, seeing as it takes 3 autos to create a clone, it is simply the only continuous clone generator...and even then, seeing as you are able to bring clone generator cooldowns on greatsword/staff down to the neighborhood of 5s, it's not even much faster, and GS/Staff get the clone out immediately. I would much rather instantly spawn a bunch of clones, than to eventually generate more clones at the cost of being forced to use a crappy autoattack for an extended period of time.

Edited by Ikelos, 20 November 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[rizipt]

Yes it is...no it's not...yes it is..  

That's the thing with those 'in neighborhood of' stats though because it leads to further vague claims like 'not even much faster'.  That 'in the neighborhood' just might be a 50% difference.  You stand uninterrupted and use your clone generator with whatever combo of traits you wish.  3 clones in 10.2 sec.   Can ya beat that?  That's the entirety of my point.  Your answer is likely NO but I can do xxx better.  I'll grant you that as I'm not challenging.  So what or who cares would be better answers.

Still doesn't take away from anyone wanting to wield or having better success with another weapon.  Also I'm not attempting to get people to put down their GS and pick up a scepter.  I'm just saying the scepter is definitely a viable choice.

[kambo_rambo]

Another interesting thing I found out is that you attack faster the closer you are to your target (with scepter). Its as if its onlt letting you attack again after your bolts hit their target.

[sorting hat]

kambo_rambo, on 21 November 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Another interesting thing I found out is that you attack faster the closer you are to your target (with scepter). Its as if its onlt letting you attack again after your bolts hit their target.

Yes, that's actually true. That's also why when they increased the 'flying speed' of scepter #1 by 33% it was considered a buff.

[LavaSquid]

These are the reasons I use scepter: replacing clones triggers Debilitating Dissipation and Crippling Dissipation.

[Naglifar]

yeah, can we also get a sweet looking hex-like 'wand-swing' animation. the lil pink arching orbs look so stupid, and are contrary to the whole 'fast-casting', hex-slinging Mesmer's we used to know.

Something like the necro's scepter (non-projectile partical effects around the wand itself/and the foe).

1-swing: applies vulnerability, if the foe is already suffering from vulnerability, it will damage to two nearby foes and grant adjacent allies (too the foe) retaliation.
2-swing: applies weakness, if the foe is already suffering from weakness, it will give you .5 second of quickness
3-swing: Dazes foe for 1/4 second, if you interrupt the foe, you summon a clone that use the 1-swing

With this sequence the 'auto' attack of the Mesmer wand would be something that provides more synergy with the other wand abilities.
the 2-wand swing could precede the channeled confusion (wand 3) to cast the channel faster (if the foe didn't need to be interrupted).

If you only auto attacked, your aoe potential increases as you generate more clones near the foes, as they will either continually aoe damage the foe with swing-1, or return damage through retaliation (being near the foe).

Edited by Naglifar, 25 November 2012 - 02:14 AM.

[Snarvid]

Naglifar, on 25 November 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

yeah, can we also get a sweet looking hex-like 'wand-swing' animation. the lil pink arching orbs look so stupid, and are contrary to the whole 'fast-casting', hex-slinging Mesmer's we used to know.

Something like the necro's scepter (non-projectile partical effects around the wand itself/and the foe).

1-swing: applies vulnerability, if the foe is already suffering from vulnerability, it will damage to two nearby foes and grant adjacent allies (too the foe) retaliation.
2-swing: applies weakness, if the foe is already suffering from weakness, it will give you .5 second of quickness
3-swing: Dazes foe for 1/4 second, if you interrupt the foe, you summon a clone that use the 1-swing

With this sequence the 'auto' attack of the Mesmer wand would be something that provides more synergy with the other wand abilities.
the 2-wand swing could precede the channeled confusion (wand 3) to cast the channel faster (if the foe didn't need to be interrupted).

If you only auto attacked, your aoe potential increases as you generate more clones near the foes, as they will either continually aoe damage the foe with swing-1, or return damage through retaliation (being near the foe).

A looping, compounding interrupt sounds imba.  I also don't know if I want them trying to code in these if-then things... seems like implementing this might be an issue.

How about just 1 second of confusion on each of 1-2-3?  Doesn't seem overpowered initially, could eventually build into something punishing if left unchecked.

[Kelthien]

Snarvid, on 25 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

A looping, compounding interrupt sounds imba.  I also don't know if I want them trying to code in these if-then things... seems like implementing this might be an issue.

How about just 1 second of confusion on each of 1-2-3?  Doesn't seem overpowered initially, could eventually build into something punishing if left unchecked.

Love the idea of bringing some confusion back in to it.  I think in Beta it had it, but then it was removed.

I'd also be very happy if they just shortened the cast time on the 3rd part of the chain: the clone summon.  It always feels slow.  All three attacks take a good long time of dedicated casting if I want a clone compared with the near-instant summon on other weapons.

[Snarvid]

It is a little sad that our most consistent confuses occur while underwater & while downed. I've been really enjoying underwater combat with the Mesmer lately while using Spear 2 & 4 as a way to travel more quickly across distances, and really wishing that I could use Trident and Spear on land.  

On that note, maybe a Siren's Call type scenario where the Mesmer (with massively higher attack rate) does the traditional Scepter 1-2-3 and the clones, instead of summoning new clones, inflict Confusion every strike?

Edited by Snarvid, 29 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Cereal]

I actually like scepter. Combined with the offhand sword it makes a very defensive set. Sure its not the best, but its good for a change of pace. For PvE, however, it is much less useful. Good thing people aren't looking (yet) for a "GS/staff Mesmer" which is what everyone seems to bring.

I agree it needs something. Added confusion? I would say adding one stack of confusion for 3 seconds on the third hit would be balanced. Along with this, confusing images, the clones' third auto attack and shattering, that's quite a lot of confusion, something I think the weapon was designed for.

[Snarvid]

Cereal, on 29 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

I actually like scepter. Combined with the offhand sword it makes a very defensive set. Sure its not the best, but its good for a change of pace. For PvE, however, it is much less useful. Good thing people aren't looking (yet) for a "GS/staff Mesmer" which is what everyone seems to bring.

I agree it needs something. Added confusion? I would say adding one stack of confusion for 3 seconds on the third hit would be balanced. Along with this, confusing images, the clones' third auto attack and shattering, that's quite a lot of confusion, something I think the weapon was designed for.

That, to me, sounds like "damning with faint praise."  

While I would like to see confusion added, I would much rather it not be attached to the 3rd hit, as this really punishes the Mesmer for not finishing the string and requires a long clone uptime before any benefit accrues besides meat shield/shatter. If confusion were added to 2, or clone gen moved to 2 and confusion added to 3, it would minimize punishment for not finishing the string and also allow strategic string cancels depending on what effect you wanted to exaggerate.

[Cereal]

I'm not saying I know best for the weapon in terms of balance and functionality, I'm just putting something out there.

The Mesmer scepter reminds me of taking a taste of pasta sauce and saying "it needs something, but I just don't know what."

[Snarvid]

I was responding to the idea of liking it but listing numerous caveats, which I find much sympathy for.  I agree with all of them, and find myself in the position of really wanting to like the scepter as our only main hand ranged option (so I can run focus for pve mobility or scepter / pistol for lots of pew pew) but feeling like its pretty weak sauce. I still run it from time to time and enjoy trolling melee mobs with focus and crippling dissipation, but that mostly cause I'm terrible.

[gasp10]

i think a good improvement should be put confusion on clones created by the first skill.

-shot a bolt
-shot a bolt
-shot a bolt and create a clone that apply confusion for 1 sec. clone attackspeed ~2,5sec

so the clone apply the unique condition as the staff/sword clones.

Edited by gasp10, 30 November 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[TGIFrisbie]

I only use Scepter when I want OH skills.  Unfortunately Anet is to busy working on gear tread mill and gear tread mill content to bother with the real issues in the game.  Expect weapon skills to be looked into in a few years.

[Trei]

ObeyGiant, on 20 November 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

If this were true, then I think the Scepter would be a pretty good weapon. But as it is now the Staff and Greatsword's clone generator are on as short or maybe even shorter when traited for cooldown than the Scepter AND they have secondary effects (might,vuln,damage,leap finisher,mini "blink").

Greatsword clones have secondary effects...?

[Cereal]

I think he means that if traited the clones can apply bleeding. Though having to select a trait in order for your clones to be somewhat effective, save for distraction/shatter fodder, is strange.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

Scepter is just plain bad. It has no role in any build that is not better served by another weapon choice.

[Jobuu]

^ true as far as function however profession/clothie/lore i "feel" scepter fits more and should be made useful

[Sebrent_Tehroth]

kambo_rambo, on 20 November 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

To preface, the scepter skill currently does a mediocre amount of damage, and on the third combo chain, it creates a clone that casts more ether bolts.
Clones created use the #1 skill of the weapon currently equipped, and thats fine and dandy because even though they do no damage, there is usually an inherent effect. Sword clone applies vulberability, Staff clone applies one of three conditions, Greatsword clone hits multiple times (allows more bleed stack if traited), but the exception is the scepter clone. These clones do nothing but throw a negligible damage bolt every second or so, and essentially you are only keeping them around to act as a meatshield or shatter fodder.
In the betas, the #1 skill used to apply confusion, which makes sense as that was the role of the weapon.
My concern is that currently the scepter is rarely used, due to its inability to output any notably significant amount of damage or control. If Anet wants us to use scepters again, it needs to be reworked – possibly somehow applying confusion without a terrible imbalance.
Anyone share the same thoughts?

I want to address the bold part of your quote here ... since it's probably partly my fault some people still think this (see the Mesmer math posts from beta).

Back before we knew the exact attack speeds, we just thought the Greatsword's auto-attack was comparable to the speeds of the other weapons because no one took the time to actually test it (or didn't share that info) and the human eye/brain sucks at "eyeballing" time. As such, the math that showed Greatsword clones are "better" than other Mesmer clones at applying bleeds with sharper images was skewed by the 3 hits per auto-attack.

Now, we know the attack speeds of each weapon's auto-attacks.
0.50 sec - MH Sword
0.50 sec - Scepter
0.75 sec - Staff
1.50 sec - Greatsword

Number of hits per auto-attack is obvious, but here we go
1 hit(s) per auto-attack - MH Sword
1 hit(s) per auto-attack - Scepter
1 hit(s) per auto-attack - Staff
3 hit(s) per auto-attack - Greatsword

So we now know that every 1.5 seconds we have
3 auto-attack(s) totaling 3 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - MH Sword
3 auto-attack(s) totaling 3 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - Scepter
2 auto-attack(s) totaling 2 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - Staff
1 auto-attack(s) totaling 3 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - Greatsword

As you can see, Greatsword clones are not providing any more hits per second than the other weapons aside from Staff clones ... and those clones. So, if you thought Greatsword clones were good with Sharper Images, you should be fine with Scepter clones.

Sword clones are a cut above Scepter and Greatsword though because Vulnerability affects condition damage and they apply vulnerability every first 2 hits and remove a boon every 3rd hit.

Staff clones, while they hit slower than the other clones, are the best at condition damage (I've done the math, may post later if people want it) because even without Sharper Images, staff clones inflict a damaging condition 2/3 of the time and vulnerability the remaining 1/3 of the time. Staff clones can also hit more than 1 target since their attacks bounce, and if there isn't a target to bounce to it can bounce to an ally giving might/fury.

Edited by Sebrent_Tehroth, 30 November 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Ikelos]

I was theorycrafting a bit yesterday and came up with this wonky build:

http://gw2skills.net...KyWkrIZRrCGes9A

The focus is on confusion and blindness. With this build, shatters = confusion, blind = confusion, making it the only build that really fully utilizes what the Scepter/Torch offers. Combined with the Staff and glamours you basically have a constant stream of blinds and confusion stacks no matter the opponent does.

This is probably best as a PvP point-holding/contesting build though, since what it does best is rendering another player useless rather than being outright good at killing.

A slight modification could incorporate retaliation into the build to be even more annoying.


So really, the problem with Scepter isn't that it's completely useless, it's that it's tied too strongly to the confusion mechanic which is unreliable damage in most situations, which causes it to only be good in very niche builds.

Edited by Ikelos, 30 November 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[Trei]

I would suggest making scepter #1 a small combo projectile (20%).
It would make the weapon set much more attractive with the new found versatility.

[Snarvid]

Sebrent_Tehroth, on 30 November 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Now, we know the attack speeds of each weapon's auto-attacks.
0.50 sec - MH Sword
0.50 sec - Scepter
0.75 sec - Staff
1.50 sec - Greatsword

Number of hits per auto-attack is obvious, but here we go
1 hit(s) per auto-attack - MH Sword
1 hit(s) per auto-attack - Scepter
1 hit(s) per auto-attack - Staff
3 hit(s) per auto-attack - Greatsword

So we now know that every 1.5 seconds we have
3 auto-attack(s) totaling 3 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - MH Sword
3 auto-attack(s) totaling 3 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - Scepter
2 auto-attack(s) totaling 2 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - Staff
1 auto-attack(s) totaling 3 hit(s) per 1.5 seconds - Greatsword

This is definitely right for the mesmer, but is this right for clones, though?  Isn't there a 1 sec delay between AA for each clone, meaning that it is 3 hits per 2.5 seconds for GS and 1 hit per 1.75 seconds for Staff, which makes GS massively faster than any other?

Edit: this doesn't hold up in the mists, but there is some delay on clone attack.

Edited by Snarvid, 02 December 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[Jairyn]

I like the idea of a faster ether bolt. Scepter makes me feel like I'm underwater, in that slow, floaty, draggy way. Not a sexy spear or trident kind of way.

Edited by Jairyn, 02 December 2012 - 03:32 PM.