239 replies to this topic

[Gileas898]

Vayra86, on 09 January 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I've never asked for vertical progression but what I do ask for is incentive. Incentive does not necessarily mean vertical progression. Incentive to *play*. A piece I read earlier in this thread about choices, I found to be a very good one illustrating this point. Currently there is hardly any choice. You throw a few traits together and boom, you've got your prof sorted out. You hit 80 and grab a few gold pieces and boom, you're at the power plateau. You do one PVE area of DE's, and that's that because all the others now are repetitive. You run WvW for a week, and you realize it is actually a pretty worthless perpetual power struggle for... nothing but a few percentiles of bonuses on stuff you'd hardly ever notice.

Incentive in a game should be: being able to beat some new bit of content because you mastered that which came before it. Incentive is being able to progress further because you as a player actually gained some insight and/or skill. All the arguments people speak of considering the state of the game are true - but the conclusion some or many of these people have drawn is outright wrong - they concluded WoW or the WoW players are to blame for this. They are not. Anet is. And I doubt Anet is looking to create a WoW clone, but I am confident Anet is completely out of options as to how they should create incentive to play without some fundamental changes to this game's core mechanics.

The best incentive to play a video game is to be better than everyone else playing it. Arena Net does not seem to understand this unfortunately.

[Dosearius]

Gileas898, on 09 January 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

The best incentive to play a video game is to be better than everyone else playing it. Arena Net does not seem to understand this unfortunately.

While that may be true in PvP,  I don't see at all how that correlates to PvE...am I missing something?

[Gilles VI]

Gileas898, on 09 January 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

The best incentive to play a video game is to be better than everyone else playing it. Arena Net does not seem to understand this unfortunately.

You must be an amazing person to play with..

[Operetta]

The best incentive is subjective to what makes you happy

Edited by Operetta, 09 January 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Gileas898]

Gilles VI, on 09 January 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

You must be an amazing person to play with..

When you play with people who are all trying to achieve their best, it is quite stimulating and fun actually.

Dosearius, on 09 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

While that may be true in PvP,  I don't see at all how that correlates to PvE...am I missing something?

After all we are talking about Ascended gear are we not? Ascended gear is simply a means for bad players to be better than their peers through stats rather than skills.

[Dosearius]

Gileas898, on 09 January 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

After all we are talking about Ascended gear are we not? Ascended gear is simply a means for bad players to be better than their peers through stats rather than skills.

ok...but if the skilled players also had the same gear, would there not still be a gap?  If all other things are equal, then skill still tips the scales, does it not?

[Gileas898]

Dosearius, on 09 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

ok...but if the skilled players also had the same gear, would there not still be a gap?  If all other things are equal, then skill still tips the scales, does it not?

Aye. But skill can be improved by anyone, not only those who can afford to dump 250 ectos in the Mystic Cash Shop Incetivator.

[geulsae]

I was doing endless cycle of Mists and one day I just thought "what on god's name am I doing?"
I logged off and haven't played since. That was about 3 weeks ago.

[asbasb]

I'm relieved to see I have not made the wrong choice back in Nov 2012. GW2 will have its player base, but it's not going to be one a lot of GW1 players will be able to enjoy. While I'm sad that the game isn't for me anymore, I'm positive that it has and will move the genre forward into a future with a lot more B2P MMORPGS. And who knows, that future might even give birth to a true spiritual GW1 successor. That's the only reason I don't regret having paid 80 bucks.

[kidawk]

Been doing my daily frac 10 for my ascended rings. I don't see what all the crying is about.

I have been in groups where people wanted to see what AR you are wearing, I subsequently either leave those groups or stop trying to achieve fractal 20+. I only wanted ascended gear for the stats.

ATM there isn't a need to have agony resistance unless you are doing fractal 20+. Even though, ATM there is no incentive to doing this either. They stated there to be better loot as you go higher in fractal level but I have not found this to be true.

I do, however, await the day when AR means more to me. Perhaps, in future RAID settings?

For this reason alone, the community should stop crying. This small gear grind isn't a big deal and may be a precursor to more FUN, CHALLENGING, and ORGANIZED content that this game SURELY NEEDS.

[Lucas Ashrock]

asbasb, on 09 January 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I'm relieved to see I have not made the wrong choice back in Nov 2012. GW2 will have its player base, but it's not going to be one a lot of GW1 players will be able to enjoy. While I'm sad that the game isn't for me anymore, I'm positive that it has and will move the genre forward into a future with a lot more B2P MMORPGS. And who knows, that future might even give birth to a true spiritual GW1 successor. That's the only reason I don't regret having paid 80 bucks.

I was so sure you meant nov 2012 as when you asked a refund, the end of your post made me fall from my chair haha
Sorry what?

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 09 January 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[Millimidget]

asbasb, on 09 January 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

While I'm sad that the game isn't for me anymore, I'm positive that it has and will move the genre forward into a future with a lot more B2P MMORPGS.

I wouldn't be so sure. Subscription or F2P seem like better choices to me. I'm really impressed by the F2P options I've come across through Steam over the last two weeks. The B2P expectation that I'll not only buy the box but still suffer being abused into using the cash shop just doesn't seem attractive at all. I can tolerate the abuse in a F2P, and I expect more from a subscription game, but B2P is just a poor combination of the two.

In hindsight, yeah, you're probably right. If it's the worst option out there, then developers will surely pursue it. At least until the next facebook game generates greater returns (project titan, anyone?).

[Lucas Ashrock]

Totally agree. If b2p means a product with scam Anet style, no thanks, i'll be way more careful on my next b2p purchase.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 09 January 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[asbasb]

Lucas Ashrock, on 09 January 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

I was so sure you meant nov 2012 as when you asked a refund, the end of your post made me fall from my chair haha
Sorry what?

No, the choice was to stop playing, not asking for a refund. I just didn't want my post to come across as "oh look, another rage quitter whining".

Millimidget, on 09 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

The B2P expectation that I'll not only buy the box but still suffer being abused into using the cash shop just doesn't seem attractive at all.

You have a point. GW2 thought me to be very careful when it comes to triple-A quality B2P MMO titles. You don't have anything to loose with F2Ps, but even the most balanced and fair F2P game could pull a dick move by altering their business practice towards a more P2W-ish one after giving their player base enough time to grow attached enough to their characters and the world. And I'm just not willing to pay a monthly fee for a game, no matter how good it is. That's why I didn't include the other two monetisation methods.

I'm glad all of this happened before I had a chance to really grow too attached to my toons.

Edited by asbasb, 09 January 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Hex65000]

I've done a few fractal runs and they are okay. It is something different, but as for chasing the ascended gear...  For me right now: nope.

My feeling at this point is that Anet realizes that they have a backlash on their hands and have at least stated that there are plans to adjust things. What that actually is, only they know. Until there is clarity in what their plans are, I'm not chasing the next tier.

In the meantime, I'm not going to waste my effort chasing a minor stat boost for my main just yet. Ascendant gear may be an interim step, but nobody needs it for anything other than fractals 10+ or if you want to be snobby about it, W v W and Arah. That's just it -- you don't need it, and the only thing I am being gated from is time finding a fractal group at my level.

There is still so much to do with my main, There is still the whole map completion effort, and the metric ton of collectable doo-dads that you need to just build ONE legendary. I haven't even decided what legendary I want. Couple that with the regular bits of content they have rolled out the door, there's always something to do. If I ever find a group that demands I have ascended gear before I can play with them, I'm not interested. I'd rather have a polite competent teammate that is running yellows and greens over a jackass with ascended and a legendary. One of these two things you can easily improve, and it's not the guy with the legendary.

Then there are the alternate characters to play. While some of it will likely be repetitive -- specifically world exploration. I can roll through a bunch of personal stories and expose myself to each of the available classes.

In short, I'm not missing my lack of fractal runs -- other than that damn monthly -- all that much. I'm not motivated to care because I'm spending my time and effort in game doing all the other stuff that is available.

If you find people who are full of themselves because they have wondrous gear and won't play with you because you are only all orange put their noise on ignore and do what I do. Or heck, come play with me. I enjoy taking the PvE field with a buddy.

Hex.
[ Thinks rushing to max everything is simply a way to become bored with the game faster... ]

[StormDragonZ]

Hex65000, on 09 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

... is that Anet realizes that they have a backlash on their hands and have at least stated that there are plans to adjust things.

Oh please, ANet couldn't care less about anyone's feelings. Backlash? They got their money and continue to get money for every single purchase made from those who think looking awesome means you are awesome. Vanity is a disease.

Why do you think I never started playing GW2? I knew from Day F'ing 1 they were never going to be different that everyone got suckered into believing. Ask yourself now what's different in GW2 that you can't find in any other game? Freedom to do what you want. when you want, however you want? Yeah, a classic Mega Man game does that too.

It's mindbogglingly creepy the amount of people who think ANet truly even thinks anything, specifically their player base, at this point.

You know how they will mostly likely adjust things? Offering bundle packages on items people don't want with new, shiny things.

[MazingerZ]

Cannot wait for the Valentine's Day gambling boxes.

[Hex65000]

StormDragonZ, on 09 January 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Why do you think I never started playing GW2? I knew from Day F'ing 1 they were never going to be different that everyone got suckered into believing. Ask yourself now what's different in GW2 that you can't find in any other game? Freedom to do what you want. when you want, however you want? Yeah, a classic Mega Man game does that too.

LOL! I have two questions:

Why are you even here if you don't own/play the game? This is as logical as me telling people that play Battlefield 3 that they are idiots on their forums. <insert Jackie Chan Meme here>

Mega Man has freedom? Seriously?

Hex.
[ Here, have a 'Plok' award for you amazing and useful insight... ]

[I'm Squirrel]

"Oh sit down and stfu, Arenanet. Nobody cares what YOU want anymore, you already failed your manifesto 6 months ago, listen to what the community wants for once."

Lol@fractals. New players aren't even able to experience FOTM because it's hard enough getting a group to run the first 10 levels.

[dannywolt]

I, on 09 January 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Lol@fractals. New players aren't even able to experience FOTM because it's hard enough getting a group to run the first 10 levels.

Not true at all. I just checked GW2LFG for NA servers and in the last 10 minutes there have been groups forming for every single level 1-10. Some of the original dungeons are much, much harder to find groups for.

[Trei]

Gileas898, on 09 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Aye. But skill can be improved by anyone, not only those who can afford to dump 250 ectos in the Mystic Cash Shop Incetivator.

No, its quite the opposite.

Anyone can go out and get 250 ectos to throw into the mystic forge if they want to. Its just a matter of time and/or materialistic cost.

Not everyone can do what Michael Jordan did in basketball, no matter how long they take to try and improve themselves.

That's skill.

[pumpkin pie]

if that guy in the link had played GW1 for a long time, he would have know buying gear was not next to nothing. ITS FREAKING EXPENSIVE!  I still haven't gotten FoW for my necromancer!

[Bennyandthejets]

I'm interested to see how this community reacts when they come to terms with what a increased level cap means (which has been confirmed 100% will happen).  I haven't played since the Lost Shores update, just as I said I would if they introduced a gear treadmill/content gating - Ascended Gear/Fractals.

Those who still believe this "new design philosophy" introduced in the first content update is not indicative of things to come are misleading themselves.  What do you think is going to happen when the level cap is increased?  Hmm?

Do you really believe they won't introduce a whole new tier of gear aimed towards level 85-90's or whatever they deem appropriate?  Time will tell, but here is my prediction.  I'll bookmark it so that when it transpires I will return.  All the armor you currently have will be obsolete.  Legendary weapons, obsolete.  Bags, new ones with additional slots introduced.  Hundreds if not thousands of hours of effort wasted.

Edited by Bennyandthejets, 10 January 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Ritualist]

Bennyandthejets, on 10 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Do you really believe they won't introduce a whole new tier of gear aimed towards level 85-90's or whatever they deem appropriate?  Time will tell, but here is my prediction.  I'll bookmark it so that when it transpires I will return.  All the armor you currently have will be obsolete.  Legendary weapons, obsolete.  Bags, new ones with additional slots introduced.

I wish they'd confirm or deny this. I expect them to raise it and my pretty-hunting is hurting because of it - I don't invest into characters, I go for functionality only.
But if they don't raise it - that means I can finally start playing GW2 the way I'd want to play it - create the prettiest Ken around and dress him up in all the shinies!

[Lordkrall]

Bennyandthejets, on 10 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'm interested to see how this community reacts when they come to terms with what a increased level cap means (which has been confirmed 100% will happen).  I haven't played since the Lost Shores update, just as I said I would if they introduced a gear treadmill/content gating - Ascended Gear/Fractals.

Those who still believe this "new design philosophy" introduced in the first content update is not indicative of things to come are misleading themselves.  What do you think is going to happen when the level cap is increased?  Hmm?

Do you really believe they won't introduce a whole new tier of gear aimed towards level 85-90's or whatever they deem appropriate?  Time will tell, but here is my prediction.  I'll bookmark it so that when it transpires I will return.  All the armor you currently have will be obsolete.  Legendary weapons, obsolete.  Bags, new ones with additional slots introduced.  Hundreds if not thousands of hours of effort wasted.

They have confirmed several times that Legendary Weapons will ALWAYS be on par with the best gear.

[Gilles VI]

Protoss, on 10 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I wish they'd confirm or deny this. I expect them to raise it and my pretty-hunting is hurting because of it - I don't invest into characters, I go for functionality only.
But if they don't raise it - that means I can finally start playing GW2 the way I'd want to play it - create the prettiest Ken around and dress him up in all the shinies!

What has appearance to do with them increasing stats??

[Bennyandthejets]

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

They have confirmed several times that Legendary Weapons will ALWAYS be on par with the best gear.

That is of course if one takes everything they say as truth.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs."

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”

Which as we can see hasn't worked out so well in the past.

Edited by Bennyandthejets, 10 January 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Bennyandthejets, on 10 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'm interested to see how this community reacts when they come to terms with what a increased level cap means (which has been confirmed 100% will happen).  I haven't played since the Lost Shores update, just as I said I would if they introduced a gear treadmill/content gating - Ascended Gear/Fractals.

Those who still believe this "new design philosophy" introduced in the first content update is not indicative of things to come are misleading themselves.  What do you think is going to happen when the level cap is increased?  Hmm?

Do you really believe they won't introduce a whole new tier of gear aimed towards level 85-90's or whatever they deem appropriate?  Time will tell, but here is my prediction.  I'll bookmark it so that when it transpires I will return.  All the armor you currently have will be obsolete.  Legendary weapons, obsolete.  Bags, new ones with additional slots introduced.  Hundreds if not thousands of hours of effort wasted.

• Yes they are looking into raising level cap, not said it will come 100% sure.
  
• There is no content gating.
  
• Why would our old gear be obselete? You can still transmutate the skins.
  
• Legendary gear will always be the best, they said that themself.
  
• Bags will not obselete, as far as I know, them introducing new bigger bags doesn't mean your bags get smaller?
  See it this way, there are 20 slot bags atm, and yet the big majority of the people use 15 slot bags, does the existence of 20 slot bags make those 15 slot bags obselete, not really..

Bennyandthejets, on 10 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

That is of course if one takes everything they say as truth.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs."

Which as we can see hasn't worked out so well in the past.

Yea and getting ascended gear really takes "a thousand hours"..

/sarcasm

[Lordkrall]

Bennyandthejets, on 10 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

That is of course if one takes everything they say as truth.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs."

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”

Which as we can see hasn't worked out so well in the past.

Funny, I have spent about 50 hours all in all in Fractals and yet I have two rings and infusions + could upgrade the back item to Ascended aswell.

[escada_assassin]

I honestly think that by saying "thousand hours" they didn't literally meant thousand hours. Could be 100 hours. More or less. Getting a legendary is the most time consuming. And for some could take even more than what they have in mind. Ascended gear require a lot of hours, since getting only an ascended capacitor requires 1350 fractal relics + upgrade to make it ascended - another 500 fractal relics, which means around 30 FotM runs. If you run it with a good team, you might finish one level in less than 1 hour (10+, but lower than 20) and even that means that you're in for around 30 hours at the minimum spent to get one single item. And it's not even infused or anything. So most likely it means around 40 hours or even more, if we consider PuGs, if we consider people that quit and restart the level, if we consider how many times people are going afk when it just starts or in the middle of a fight and so on.  Aaaand, that capacitor, as a backpiece, is the most powerful piece in the game, so if you want it, prepare for hundreds of hours wasted on getting it. Noone says you need it and yet you see more and more people each day with one on their back. But I do think that people aren't running fotm primarily for getting that backpiece, but for getting a lot of loot, which leads to getting more and more cash. Apparently people are more into grinding than smelling flowers. So yeah, it does take "thousand hours" if you're planning to get it on more than one char (from what I've seen so far).

Edited by escada_assassin, 10 January 2013 - 01:40 PM.