239 replies to this topic

[Lordkrall]

I sure wonder how all those that got their Capacitor upgraded within a week after Fractals where released manage to spend more hours than humanly possible between release and that point.

[MisterJaguar25]

I like how everyone forgets that only the difficulty is gated (which is arguably lame), not the content. You don't need the gear to do it. "But, but, other people won't do the content with me because I don't have the gear!" There will always be people like you, new players, who don't have the gear, as well as players who are geared but aren't pricks and are willing to do the content with you. You'll never be the only player locked out by elitists, so find those other players in your position (or who are in a position to refuse you based on your gear/difficulty experience but are willing to do the content with you anyway) and group with them.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 10 January 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Vexies]

There is so much blustering in these posts..

The level cap will increase, more ascended gear will come gradually over time (they have confirmed both of these things) and new legendary weapons and armor will be introduced at the same stat level as current legendary (which stays on par with current top gear) and you know what?

The majority of the players will be happy for it and enjoy the game.

So much crying over so little, so pointless..

Edited by Vexies, 10 January 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Gilles VI]

escada_assassin, on 10 January 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

I honestly think that by saying "thousand hours" they didn't literally meant thousand hours. Could be 100 hours. More or less. Getting a legendary is the most time consuming. And for some could take even more than what they have in mind. Ascended gear require a lot of hours, since getting only an ascended capacitor requires 1350 fractal relics + upgrade to make it ascended - another 500 fractal relics, which means around 30 FotM runs. If you run it with a good team, you might finish one level in less than 1 hour (10+, but lower than 20) and even that means that you're in for around 30 hours at the minimum spent to get one single item. And it's not even infused or anything. So most likely it means around 40 hours or even more, if we consider PuGs, if we consider people that quit and restart the level, if we consider how many times people are going afk when it just starts or in the middle of a fight and so on.  Aaaand, that capacitor, as a backpiece, is the most powerful piece in the game, so if you want it, prepare for hundreds of hours wasted on getting it. Noone says you need it and yet you see more and more people each day with one on their back. But I do think that people aren't running fotm primarily for getting that backpiece, but for getting a lot of loot, which leads to getting more and more cash. Apparently people are more into grinding than smelling flowers. So yeah, it does take "thousand hours" if you're planning to get it on more than one char (from what I've seen so far).

Daily run at lvl gives 68 tokens and takes ~1h..

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

I sure wonder how all those that got their Capacitor upgraded within a week after Fractals where released manage to spend more hours than humanly possible between release and that point.

Thats not true, the daily gives a good boost of tokens, and then every 2 runs you get the maw which gives a bonus.
I got some friends who were able to farm their 1350 tokens in a couple of days, it isn't that hard.

[Ritualist]

Vexies, on 10 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

There is so much blustering in these posts..

The level cap will increase, more ascended gear will come gradually over time (they have confirmed both of these things) and new legendary weapons and armor will be introduced at the same stat level as current legendary (which stays on par with current top gear) and you know what?

The majority of the players will be happy for it and enjoy the game.

So much crying over so little, so pointless..

Why not ask oneself if the majority of the players would object to the removal of additional vertical progression instead. In a world where we have tons of games that offer vertical progression, wouldn't the market benefit more by having a game that caters to those of us that simply couldn't care in the slightest about bigger numbers?
I mean, we KNOW people won't mind additional progression, if for no other reason because that's pretty much EVERYTHING that is on the market right now and people are buying into it.

[Trei]

Bennyandthejets, on 10 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

...Those who still believe this "new design philosophy" introduced in the first content update is not indicative of things to come are misleading themselves.  What do you think is going to happen when the level cap is increased?  Hmm?...

Then gear of high levels would be introduced to match the new level cap.
What does that have to do with gear tiers exactly?

Your level 80 gear would then be obsolete stat-wise, yes.
Just like your current level 40 gear.

[Vexies]

Quote

Why not ask oneself if the majority of the players would object to the removal of additional vertical progression instead. In a world where we have tons of games that offer vertical progression, wouldn't the market benefit more by having a game that caters to those of us that simply couldn't care in the slightest about bigger numbers?

I absolutely understand what your saying here. I myself could careless either way. I was never a drink the cool aid believer in the church of Anet in the first place. I play because its extremely fun and a fantastic value. So much so that I have turned away from the sub model all together.

That said if what you say above was true or really profitable for a company to do then you would see it happening in droves. They are a business after all.  They do their best to give you the best gaming experience they can while simultaneously making as much money as possible.  Its what businesses are in business to do.  I know that people seem to forget that today and somehow believe that is "evil" but in the end if something is profitable you do it if not you don't or you don't stay in business very long.

In short if what you say was true and profitable for the company to do.. it would be

Edited by Vexies, 10 January 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Gilles VI, on 10 January 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Thats not true, the daily gives a good boost of tokens, and then every 2 runs you get the maw which gives a bonus.
I got some friends who were able to farm their 1350 tokens in a couple of days, it isn't that hard.

Indeed. And that was my point I simply stated that it was weird that people could do "300h" of work in just a few days as the one I quoted stated.

[Ritualist]

Vexies, on 10 January 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I absolutely understand what your saying here. I myself could careless either way. I was never a drink the cool aid believer in the church of Anet in the first place. I play because its extremely fun and a fantastic value. So much so that I have turned away from the sub model all together.

That said if what you say above was true or really profitable for a company to do then you would see it happening in droves. They are a business after all.  They do their best to give you the best gaming experience they can while simultaneously making as much money as possible.  Its what businesses are in business to do.  I know that people seem to forget that today and somehow believe that is "evil" but in the end if something is profitable you do it if not you don't or you don't stay in business very long.

In short if what you say was true and profitable for the company to do.. it would be

So ... A.Net does whatever they think will bring in the most money and we are wrong to bitch about it? And that's your advice as a fellow consumer?

[Gilles VI]

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Indeed. And that was my point I simply stated that it was weird that people could do "300h" of work in just a few days as the one I quoted stated.

Woops my bad.

Protoss, on 10 January 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

So ... A.Net does whatever they think will bring in the most money and we are wrong to bitch about it? And that's your advice as a fellow consumer?

No he says it isn't evil or malicious like alot of people on these forums seem to think, it's just bussines.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

Var, on 20 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

... only level you need to reach to get every available piece of new gear ...

Not sure about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Fractal weapon skins only become available at level 20+ in the dungeon?

[Gileas898]

Trei, on 10 January 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

No, its quite the opposite.

Anyone can go out and get 250 ectos to throw into the mystic forge if they want to. Its just a matter of time and/or materialistic cost.

Not everyone can do what Michael Jordan did in basketball, no matter how long they take to try and improve themselves.

That's skill.

I fully understand this. But are you saying that Michael Jordan does not deserve the rewards he reaped for being awesome?

That basketball should be decided by what player can afford the best shoes? "Hey guys I have these new Nike Ultra Super Terminators, it means I start the game with 10 points, so screw you".

I mean, really?

[Var]

Sword Hammer Axe, on 10 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Not sure about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Fractal weapon skins only become available at level 20+ in the dungeon?

They are skins (they don't even have stats on them), I was speaking with regards to the gear that people froth over as game breaking, ie. the ascended. That being said, you don't even need AR at 20+ so there's still no barrier aside from one of skill, team coordination, and (not) pugging. That said, gating skins behind X hours of grind is pretty much par for the course for this franchise. The issue of gating as game breaking is on gating: statistically better gear (not the case here) and content (not the case here unless we're suddenly going start arguing that superficial skins are suddenly game breaking content). If they want to hide SkinMcAwesomeSauce at level 80 FotM, then all the more power to them and all the more impressed I'd be to see someone actually having it.

With the incoming update on reconnects and playing at highest level attained, this whole gating discussion becomes even more moot. They've even removed the stupid RNG-only aspect from the rings along side of still giving you that jackpot "feel" of winning the ring on the RNG anyway.

Edited by Var, 10 January 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[MazingerZ]

Var, on 10 January 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

They are skins (they don't even have stats on them), I was speaking with regards to the gear that people froth over as game breaking, ie. the ascended. That being said, you don't even need AR at 20+ so there's still no barrier aside from one of skill, team coordination, and (not) pugging. That said, gating skins behind X hours of grind is pretty much par for the course for this franchise. The issue of gating as game breaking is on gating: statistically better gear (not the case here) and content (not the case here unless we're suddenly going start arguing that superficial skins are suddenly game breaking content). If they want to hide SkinMcAwesomeSauce at level 80 FotM, then all the more power to them and all the more impressed I'd be to see someone actually having it.

With the incoming update on reconnects and playing at highest level attained, this whole gating discussion becomes even more moot. They've even removed the stupid RNG-only aspect from the rings along side of still giving you that jackpot "feel" of winning the ring on the RNG anyway.

Damage done though.  Unless the March/Feb content injects some new life into the open world, I don't expect them to be gaining any new players, if they want them at all.  I still haven't found the wherewithal to log in and do anything since attaining the Christmas title.  I'm bored.  Fractals were boring at level 2.  The only reason to do them was for the gear.

Even Colin admitted recently that they need to revamp their other encounters to make them interesting and challenging.

[Trei]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

I fully understand this. But are you saying that Michael Jordan does not deserve the rewards he reaped for being awesome?

That basketball should be decided by what player can afford the best shoes? "Hey guys I have these new Nike Ultra Super Terminators, it means I start the game with 10 points, so screw you".

No, he does deserve it.

No, shoes don't decide basketball results.
Shoes can and does give a player an advantage, but one that can be overcome by skill.

I can always get the same shoes as the Nike guy.
But he might never get to be as skilled as me.

So I don't really give a damn about his shoes.

Therefore you don't need to be concerned about ascended gear being "simply a means for bad players to be better than their peers through stats rather than skills." unless you too are as bad as these bad players, no?

Are you?

Edited by Trei, 10 January 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[Var]

MazingerZ, on 10 January 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Damage done though.  Unless the March/Feb content injects some new life into the open world, I don't expect them to be gaining any new players, if they want them at all.  I still haven't found the wherewithal to log in and do anything since attaining the Christmas title.  I'm bored.  Fractals were boring at level 2.  The only reason to do them was for the gear.

Even Colin admitted recently that they need to revamp their other encounters to make them interesting and challenging.

Damage done to what (I seriously have no idea why you even quoted me)? By adding interesting content they made their disinteresting content... disinteresting (which is in itself whole subjective)? The majority of dungeon bosses were boring HP sponges and having added better content is hardly a negative.

Your claims are just completely outlandish sometimes...

Edited by Var, 10 January 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[Gileas898]

Trei, on 10 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

No, he does deserve it.

No, shoes don't decide basketball results.
Shoes can and does give a player an advantage, but one that can be overcome by skill.

I can always get the same shoes as the Nike guy.
But he might never get to be as skilled as me.

So I don't really give a damn about his shoes.

Therefore you don't need to be concerned about ascended gear being "simply a means for bad players to be better than their peers through stats rather than skills." unless you too are as bad as these bad players, no?

Are you?

Why should I be at an inherent disadvantage just because I can't afford to throw senseless amounts of money at the MF?

[Lordkrall]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Why should I be at an inherent disadvantage just because I can't afford to throw senseless amounts of money at the MF?

You aren't.
You simply decide to look at only one way.
I currently have 2 Ascended items and I have yet to use the Forge once to get them. And the one I am going for does not require you to throw that much money into the forge at all.

[Gileas898]

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

You aren't.
You simply decide to look at only one way.
I currently have 2 Ascended items and I have yet to use the Forge once to get them. And the one I am going for does not require you to throw that much money into the forge at all.

I'll answer this in your own words;

"Yes, it is much better to do dungeons because you WANT to do them than it is to do dungeons because you HAVE to do them.

Need is always worse than want.

How often do you re-run instances in WoW after you got the full set needed for the next tier/raid/whatever? "

Just please. You know as well as I that getting Ascended gear from fractals involves horrible grind and RNG. Don't ever bring it up in this context unless you want to lose what little credibility you have left.

[Ghostwing]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I'll answer this in your own words;

"Yes, it is much better to do dungeons because you WANT to do them than it is to do dungeons because you HAVE to do them.

Need is always worse than want.

How often do you re-run instances in WoW after you got the full set needed for the next tier/raid/whatever? "

Just please. You know as well as I that getting Ascended gear from fractals involves horrible grind and RNG. Don't ever bring it up in this context unless you want to lose what little credibility you have left.

I don't know about horrible grind and RNG when you get your pick of an ascended ring after 10 daily runs of FOTM 10+ (not necessarily consecutive days either) and after however many runs it takes to get 1850 tokens for the ascended back piece (these tokens are given concurrently to the aforementioned 10).

After that though it is much more grind and RNG to get additional AR, which only affects Fractals. And yeah that is needed if you want to run the higher levels of fractals. But I wouldn't put "higher levels of fractals" in the same category as "the next WoW raid." It's more like hard modes in WoW raids.

Context is important.

Edited by Ghostwing, 10 January 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I'll answer this in your own words;

"Yes, it is much better to do dungeons because you WANT to do them than it is to do dungeons because you HAVE to do them.

Need is always worse than want.

How often do you re-run instances in WoW after you got the full set needed for the next tier/raid/whatever? "

Just please. You know as well as I that getting Ascended gear from fractals involves horrible grind and RNG. Don't ever bring it up in this context unless you want to lose what little credibility you have left.

But the thing is: It does not involve "horrible grind and RNG". Sure, it might take a daily or two to get a ring (I have gotten one for every single daily I have done for the record, so they are clearly not that uncommon) and after 10 of those you can CHOOSE exactly which of the rings you want. Without ANY sort of RNG.

[Gileas898]

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

But the thing is: It does not involve "horrible grind and RNG". Sure, it might take a daily or two to get a ring (I have gotten one for every single daily I have done for the record, so they are clearly not that uncommon) and after 10 of those you can CHOOSE exactly which of the rings you want. Without ANY sort of RNG.

~ 20 hours for 2 pieces of gear is not a grind?

Really?

Really?

Ghostwing, on 10 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I don't know about horrible grind and RNG when you get your pick of an ascended ring after 10 daily runs of FOTM 10+ (not necessarily consecutive days either) and after however many runs it takes to get 1850 tokens for the ascended back piece (these tokens are given concurrently to the aforementioned 10).

After that though it is much more grind and RNG to get additional AR, which only affects Fractals. And yeah that is needed if you want to run the higher levels of fractals. But I wouldn't put "higher levels of fractals" in the same category as "the next WoW raid." It's more like hard modes in WoW raids.

Context is important.

See above. What the hell do you consider a grind if not 10h / item???

[Lordkrall]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

~ 20 hours for 2 pieces of gear is not a grind?

Really?

Really?

Totally depends.
I did not run them in order to get the items. I simply got them by playing the game.
Grinding would mean that I simply ran it over and over again simply to get the items in question, which was not the case.

[Gileas898]

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Totally depends.
I did not run them in order to get the items. I simply got them by playing the game.
Grinding would mean that I simply ran it over and over again simply to get the items in question, which was not the case.

And to stay equal to everyone else you would have to run it over and over again regardless if you want to or not.

Therefore case is closed.

[Ghostwing]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

See above. What the hell do you consider a grind if not 10h / item???

It's neither horrible nor RNG was my point. It is a grind, though, but not comparable to WoW heroic/raid reruns.

Edited by Ghostwing, 10 January 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[Gileas898]

Ghostwing, on 10 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's neither horrible nor RNG was my point. It is a grind, though, but not comparable to WoW heroic/raid reruns..

I'd argue that it is more horrible than WoW. You can easily get 2-3 items in a raid lasting a few hours.

[Lordkrall]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

And to stay equal to everyone else you would have to run it over and over again regardless if you want to or not.

Therefore case is closed.

Oh? Funny, I must have missed the memo that told me that you could use Ascended Gear in sPvP and only people that PvE:ed could get it.

Why would I have to "run it over and over again"? I already have the max amount of Ascended Gear that I can only get from Fractals, so I don't need to run a single Fractal run in order to be equal to "everyone else."

Wouldn't the leveling to get to lvl 80 and therefore be level 80 be grinding as well? Or starting the game, since without starting the game you can't get equal to everyone else? So basically everything in every game ever is grinding?

[Ghostwing]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I'd argue that it is more horrible than WoW. You can easily get 2-3 items in a raid lasting a few hours.

You could also easily get none, especially when it's only a few pieces left for BIS that you're rerunning the instance for.

[Gileas898]

Ghostwing, on 10 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

You could also easily get none, especially when it's only a few pieces left for BIS that you're rerunning the instance for.

Yes, but we don't know how GW2 will handle that exact same situation do we? It's pointless to discuss it.

Lordkrall, on 10 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Oh? Funny, I must have missed the memo that told me that you could use Ascended Gear in sPvP and only people that PvE:ed could get it.

Why would I have to "run it over and over again"? I already have the max amount of Ascended Gear that I can only get from Fractals, so I don't need to run a single Fractal run in order to be equal to "everyone else."

Wouldn't the leveling to get to lvl 80 and therefore be level 80 be grinding as well? Or starting the game, since without starting the game you can't get equal to everyone else? So basically everything in every game ever is grinding?

That depends on if you consider leveling to be repetitive. But yes, leveling could be considered a grind. What you are trying to argue though, I don't understand for the life of me.

GW2 was sold as a game where you wouldn't have to grind for gear to stay competitive. You have probably praised the game and sold it to a lot of friends on that very premise, and I am 100% sure that you have argued for the game to stay that way, I mean, it only took me 2 minutes to find the post I just quoted where you say exactly that.

But that's the problem with you fanboys isn't it? Always changing your stance to reflect the company's, despite what stances you have held in the past. If only you could see the damage you are doing to the game...

Edited by unraveled, 11 January 2013 - 09:44 AM.
English only thank you.

[Lordkrall]

Gileas898, on 10 January 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

That depends on if you consider leveling to be repetitive. But yes, leveling could be considered a grind. What you are trying to argue though, I don't understand for the life of me.

GW2 was sold as a game where you wouldn't have to grind for gear to stay competitive. You have probably praised the game and sold it to a lot of friends on that very premise, and I am 100% sure that you have argued for the game to stay that way, I mean, it only took me 2 minutes to find the post I just quoted where you say exactly that.

But that's the problem with you fanboys isn't it? Always changing your stance to reflect the company's, despite what stances you have held in the past. If only you could see the damage you are doing to the game...

The bolded part is exactly the whole thing.
No matter how many hours you have spent in PvE you are still just as able to compete in sPvP and sPvP is really the only "competetive" part of the game. There are no competetion in PvE, there are no man on man competetion in WvW and gear don't, in anyway, effect the outcome of the WvW matches.

Edited by unraveled, 11 January 2013 - 09:44 AM.
Amended quote.