239 replies to this topic

[shanaeri rynale]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

I am simply correcting him about the fact that there were no game-imposed gates in GW1, which there quite clearly where.

Not to mention UW and FoW before they changed Favor of the Gods.

You mentioned DoA, and I responded to DOA.

Fow and UW were gated, but they removed it because they saw how stupid it was(which I did a whole load of observed metrics on back in 2005). In each and every case I can think of, any gates were removed in GW1. Urgoz/Deep required to be taxied in, that got removed too. Why? because Old Arenanet saw the damaging effect it was having on the player base and the community.

I guess you're now going to say, getting to step B on multi part quest is content gating or that the need to login is gating you from hitting level 1... Oh noes I'm content gated from GW1 because i've not bought the game

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 20 November 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[Coren]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

I am simply correcting him about the fact that there were no game-imposed gates in GW1, which there quite clearly where.

Not to mention UW and FoW before they changed Favor of the Gods.

The only gate I saw in the old days was having the right skill set, which required money and yes, true, the favor of the gods. Otherwise running the top dungeons were not restrictive until ANet put into place, unintentionally probably, a way to count your grind level.

The only other barrier I see we're the factions elite missions which required your alliance to control the town, you had to pay for service.

GW2 has a barrier for high level.fractals, but as long as it doesn't have repercussions for "normal" gameplay, I don't care.

[Lordkrall]

shanaeri rynale, on 20 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

You mentioned DoA, and I responded to DOA.

Fow and UW were gated, but they removed it because they saw how stupid it was(which I did a whole load of observed metrics on back in 2005). In each and every case I can think of, any gates were removed in GW1. Urgoz/Deep required to be taxied in, that got removed too. Why? because Old Arenanet saw the damaging effect it was having on the player base and the community.

I guess you're now going to say, getting to step B on multi part quest is content gating or that the need to login is gating you from hitting level 1... Oh noes I'm content gated from GW1 because i've not bought the game

And yet you completely ignores the fact that you had to get a certain level of Sunspear  in order to access DoA (besides the fact that you had to finish a whole damn campaign in order to get access) how is that not gating content? And to this day you still need Sunspear rank in order to advance.

Not to mention the fact that you still need to get to a certain part in the story to access UW or FoW (Ascension, Hunted! or Closer to the Stars)

[shanaeri rynale]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

And yet you completely ignores the fact that you had to get a certain level of Sunspear  in order to access DoA (besides the fact that you had to finish a whole damn campaign in order to get access) how is that not gating content? And to this day you still need Sunspear rank in order to advance.

Not to mention the fact that you still need to get to a certain part in the story to access UW or FoW (Ascension, Hunted! or Closer to the Stars)

All the above is answered by the fact these were obtained just by progressing your story and actually could be bypassed by being run to consular docks/Sunspear temple.

But before this thread is totally derailed. This is a GW2 forum. and we need to look at Andrews post carefully as it outlines imho a reality distortion field between what is desired (A non exclusive community) and an implemention of something that activiley encourages an exclusive one.

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 20 November 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[Coren]

Ok you two just reel it in, this is getting you nowhere.

[Ritualist]

shanaeri rynale, on 20 November 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yup loads

How did the GAME gate it?

Did it need a set build? Nope. Heck I ran it with a team of all mesmers..
Did it need PVE skills? Nope. It made it easier, but didnt stop us.
Did it need players to have set runes - nope
Did it need consumables Nope. Agaiin, made it easier but not essential
Did it need super special armor above easily got max stats? - Nope.

The only gating done in DoA was by the player's own prejudice. In this case it doesnt matter how open minded the player is, they WILL be gated by the game.

As I shave said above, I don't think this should be treated as a blueprint on how to do it. A.Net made mistakes in GW1 with PvE titles granting power being one of them.
The problem is that A.Net is unable to recognize those concepts as mistakes, but rather finds them to be something that is worth building a game on. So I am going to disagree with the both of you - this sucked in GW1 and it sucks even more in GW2.

EDIT:
Khmm, I think my post is what you meant with the words "yep, loads.".

Edited by Protoss, 20 November 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Zippor]

shanaeri rynale, on 20 November 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yup loads

How did the GAME gate it?

Did it need a set build? Nope. Heck I ran it with a team of all mesmers..
Did it need PVE skills? Nope. It made it easier, but didnt stop us.
Did it need players to have set runes - nope
Did it need consumables Nope. Agaiin, made it easier but not essential
Did it need super special armor above easily got max stats? - Nope.

The only gating done in DoA was by the player's own prejudice. In this case it doesnt matter how open minded the player is, they WILL be gated by the game.

But which is the lesser evil? Gating imposed by game mechanic or the playerbase community? There is no winner in this matter, from what I've seen at least, someone will always be left out.

[bdatty]

The amount of lazy people not wanting to put some effort is too damn high.

[shanaeri rynale]

Zippor, on 20 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

But which is the lesser evil? Gating imposed by game mechanic or the playerbase community? There is no winner in this matter, from what I've seen at least, someone will always be left out.

Alas yes. I would say game mechanic gating is way worse simply because you can always find players willing to buck convention and flavor of the month builds to do stuff with their friends. Game gating does'nt give anyone any choice. Willing or otherwise.

Yeah there were huge parts of GW1 that didnt work that well when they were put in, Old Anet did at least see these as issues and correct some of them. E.g favor, elite missions needing town ownership and still keeping open routes to bypass stuff (droks runs, running to consulate docks etc).

I hated PvE skills and consumables with a passion, and I like to think Anet would have removed these or nerfed in time had they kept the resources on the game.

Old Anet was wonderfully inventive, they would come up with solutions you just sat back and thought Wow that is VERY clever.

But New Anet is what we have now, and all we can really do is try to propose ideas, and point out in a calm logical way areas in which, we the customer feel they could do better.

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 20 November 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Ritualist]

Zippor, on 20 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

But which is the lesser evil? Gating imposed by game mechanic or the playerbase community? There is no winner in this matter, from what I've seen at least, someone will always be left out.

Gating as a game mechanic is completely intentional in GW2. Which means the devs want to have a game where people are left out.
That's why it's worse.

EDIT:

bdatty, on 20 November 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

The amount of lazy people not wanting to put some effort is too damn high.

It's interesting how many of us, lazy bums, put in thousands of hours into GW1 to grind our asses off for pretty outfits.

Edited by Protoss, 20 November 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Zippor]

shanaeri rynale, on 20 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Game gating does'nt give anyone any choice. Willing or otherwise.

If the people left behind are willing, they can catch up with anything, it will only take time. The same applies to community based gating also, it is only the decision of the individuals that keeps them gated in the long run.

I'm not saying I endorse this game mechanic gating in anyway though, it certainly makes catching up really hard.

Edited by Zippor, 20 November 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[The Trouble With Me]

I did fractals lvl 3 fractals with a group yesterday. 1 of our team was lvl 75 and we had a leaver in the first fractal. No big deal, we picked up someone else after getting the chest. For each fractal there were multiple people in the group who hadn't done it before but we did them by explaining and that 75 guy was actually pretty good. Someone fell into the lava on the grawl level so we jumped in yelling banzai. When I did fractals for the first time some charming french guild explained all the mechanics to me despite the language barrier. Maybe I haven't done enough but I'm just not seeing the animosity. None of the fractals even require all of the group to be ultra efficient, at least in the core mechanics. I think it's safe to assume that people doing the later fractals will be more likely to have exotic gear anyway, and being able actually dodge and avoid damage is going to save a lot more hitpoints than having a few more armour stats.

[raspberry jam]

Alleji, on 20 November 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Ascended gear would've been perfect without additional stats except for the agony resistance.

It wouldn't... Rather, Fractals of the Mists would've been perfect if the difficulty actually increased instead of just cranking up agony.

Zippor, on 20 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

If the people left behind are willing, they can catch up with anything, it will only take time.

You can't catch up with a moving target if it is faster than you.

[Ghostwing]

shanaeri rynale, on 20 November 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

The difference between what Andrew said about GW1 and player behavoir is that the 'must take this or that' gate was purely player determined. I.e you did NOT Need lightbringer 8 to do DoA, Ghastly stones proved nothing and many different team and build compositions could be used to beat the areas.

Now the 'must take this or have ascended that' is a GAME imposed restriction. Does'nt matter how skilled, or how great your build is sooner or later you'll hit the 'must have infused gear' wall the GAME imposes.

Two very different things.

That's kinda the whole bitter-sweet thing with fractals. Sooner or later I know i'll hit a game imposed wall that is nothing to do with my skill, willingness of my guild to help or my build and every time I complete a level that moments becomes ever closer.

But according to people who have already gotten to levels with Agony, they didn't need to grind for infusion protection because they already had it by then. It sounds more or less organic, just like regular leveling (I don't know for sure because I haven't gotten there yet). The game-imposed wall wouldn't be a big deal if it comes with just playing the game. Is complaining you need to get to 80 before you can do Arah a valid complaint as well?

Other than for WvW, I'm starting to fail to see what the problem is. The Fractals are a repeat of 9 dungeons, just with bigger numbers. You need bigger numbers on gear to deal with the bigger numbers that the mobs have. If you like the number grind, go do it. If you don't, you still experience all the mechanics the dungeon has to offer, just without Agony and with smaller numbers.

Edited by Ghostwing, 20 November 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

And yet you completely ignores the fact that you had to get a certain level of Sunspear  in order to access DoA (besides the fact that you had to finish a whole damn campaign in order to get access) how is that not gating content? And to this day you still need Sunspear rank in order to advance.

Not to mention the fact that you still need to get to a certain part in the story to access UW or FoW (Ascension, Hunted! or Closer to the Stars)

Gating imposed by storyline progression is in no way comparable to gating imposed by stats. You might as well say that you are gated from playing the final mission in the storyline right away.

[MazingerZ]

Ghostwing, on 20 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

But according to people who have already gotten to levels with Agony, they didn't need to grind for infusion protection because they already had it by then. It sounds more or less organic, just like regular leveling (I don't know for sure because I haven't gotten there yet). The game-imposed wall wouldn't be a big deal if it comes with just playing the game.

Other than for WvW, I'm starting to fail to see what the problem is. The Fractals are a repeat of 9 dungeons, just with bigger numbers. You need bigger numbers on gear to deal with the bigger numbers that the mobs have. If you like the number grind, go do it. If you don't, you still experience all the mechanics the dungeon has to offer, just without Agony and with smaller numbers.

The problem is climbing levels 1-x, x being the average level everyone is operating as.  This isn't just an issue of gear, butvalso being a charity case.  Mark my words, this will degenerate into gems for gold to pay for progression and the Anet balance sheets will count it as good.

[Lordkrall]

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Gating imposed by storyline progression is in no way comparable to gating imposed by stats. You might as well say that you are gated from playing the final mission in the storyline right away.

You did not get enough Sunspear points by only doing the story in order to get past that point however.

[raspberry jam]

Ghostwing, on 20 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Is complaining you need to get to 80 before you can do Arah a valid complaint as well?

Yes, it is. Levels is an idea that was retarded beyond all belief even back when it was first invented.

[LasraelLarson]

Zippor, on 20 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

If the people left behind are willing, they can catch up with anything, it will only take time.

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

You can't catch up with a moving target if it is faster than you.

& there are 24 hours in a day.  if it becomes about who has the most free time...  given enough time, the only way to catch up, is if the person with the head start quits.
not immediately an issue, but in a year or two...  huge issue.

[Zippor]

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

You can't catch up with a moving target if it is faster than you.

I'm pretty sure the target will hit some kind of a wall eventually.

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes, it is. Levels is an idea that was retarded beyond all belief even back when it was first invented.

You really do hate artificial progression, don't you?

Edited by Zippor, 20 November 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

You did not get enough Sunspear points by only doing the story in order to get past that point however.

AFAIK there's one SS points gate before you can leave Istan, that's true and was criticized quite a lot back then. I think that non-NF characters could skip the gate. Also, while having LB Gaze by the time you reached the Grand Court of Sebelkeh mission was nice, it wasn't a requirement.

Note that Mallyx could be reached and killed without the use of Lightbringer title and only using normal skills (not PvE-only ones).

Edited by raspberry jam, 20 November 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Ghostwing]

MazingerZ, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

The problem is climbing levels 1-x, x being the average level everyone is operating as.  This isn't just an issue of gear, butvalso being a charity case.  Mark my words, this will degenerate into gems for gold to pay for progression and the Anet balance sheets will count it as good.

Yeah, that is an issue, but that's not as fundamental an issue as these other posters are complaining about. If I am understanding you correctly, all they need to do is implement an automatic dungeon finder where it'll set you up with a pug that is the same level as you. You don't need the stats outside of the harder fractals--you get downscaled everywhere else. We'll see what they do about WVW.

Edit: And also whether 80 zones will be properly downscaled to non-ascension stats.

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes, it is. Levels is an idea that was retarded beyond all belief even back when it was first invented.

That is a core mechanic of the game. If you're complaining about that, truly, you bought the wrong game.

Edited by Ghostwing, 20 November 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Zippor, on 20 November 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

You really do hate artificial progression, don't you?

Yes. With a passion unmatched even by the explosive force of a supernova.

Ghostwing, on 20 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

That is a core mechanic of the game. If you're complaining about that, truly, you bought the wrong game.

It's a "core mechanic" that I can get through in less than two weeks, and I was planning to play for years, just like in GW1. So it would not bother me. I thought.

And then, ascended gear.

[sty0pa]

Alleji, on 20 November 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Ascended gear would've been perfect without additional stats except for the agony resistance.

I believe their assertion that removing the flexibility of adding runes/sigils/whatever to customize the gear stat load reduces the utility, and I can see the logic (for a moment) suggesting that (total stat value)+(flexible slot) is worth (total stat value)+X extra stats WITHOUT the flexibility.

Superficially, that seems to make sense...
Unfortunately, it only works if one supposes the flexibility is worth something on an ongoing basis...which it isn't.  The 'flexibility' is useful once (when one determines one's preferred build), and then expires.  The bonus stats on ascended gear are useful forever.  I mean, if one had to apply one set of appliques for one task, and switch to another, then the flexibility would be of enduring value.  In "real" play, though, nobody bothers to (carefully) apply that stuff to gear until they're 80, and then they get their optimal gear (usually from the AH), apply the optimal upgrades, and they're done.  Voila, flexibility is worthless except for the marginal savings you might find buying suboptimal stuff for cheaper on the AH.

[Ghostwing]

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

It's a "core mechanic" that I can get through in less than two weeks, and I was planning to play for years, just like in GW1. So it would not bother me. I thought.

And then, ascended gear.

But what does it matter? Ascended gear only gets you access to the SAME content, but with increased numbers.

[Alleji]

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

It wouldn't... Rather, Fractals of the Mists would've been perfect if the difficulty actually increased instead of just cranking up agony.

Oh, having mobs deal more damage doesn't count as cranking up difficulty I guess?

Well, then i'd like to see how you would design a system with perpetually-increasing difficulty where you can't design each level individually.

[raspberry jam]

Ghostwing, on 20 November 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

But what does it matter? Ascended gear only gets you access to the SAME content, but with increased numbers.

Tell that to the exotic geared people that I blow up in WvW lol.

Alleji, on 20 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Oh, having mobs deal more damage doesn't count as cranking up difficulty I guess?

Well, then i'd like to see how you would design a system with perpetually-increasing difficulty where you can't design each level individually.

Smarter AI. Making a retard stronger still means he's a retard. Also, make mobs faster.
Though I must admit, with such a limited system as GW2, it's difficult.

[LethoOfGulet]

Ghostwing, on 20 November 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

But what does it matter? Ascended gear only gets you access to the SAME content, but with increased numbers.

I really hate using the slippery slope argument, but do you truly believe that ArenaNet would invent a whole new gear tier and a gear-gating mechanic just to use it in one area?

[Ghostwing]

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Tell that to the exotic geared people that I blow up in WvW lol.

Is that happening yet? No? Then what are you talking about? The way they currently have it implemented--two rings and a backslot--it makes very little difference in WVW. Like I said in my previous post, we'll see how they'll implement the later gear into WVW.

LethoOfGulet, on 20 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I really hate using the slippery slope argument, but do you truly believe that ArenaNet would invent a whole new gear tier and a gear-gating mechanic just to use it in one area?

I do, actually. I expect them to draw out this area for as long as possible and then release an expansion with a level cap raise that is justified by a viable amount of content instead of 9 mini dungeons. But it doesn't matter what I expect--I don't know what they're going to do, but neither does anyone else here.

Edited by Ghostwing, 20 November 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Alleji]

raspberry jam, on 20 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Smarter AI.

Not possible in an infinite system. You have to write each "smartness level" of the AI individually or write one and then disable components at lower levels. I guess they could make a dozen and turn them up every 5 levels, but it will inevitably hit a cap anyway.

Quote

Also, make mobs faster.

This is the same thing as increasing damage. Moreover, there's nothing stopping them from tweaking both numbers. Maybe they already did at high levels... I wouldn't know since I only got to 12.

It's not GW's limited system, it's true for any system.

Edited by Alleji, 20 November 2012 - 01:52 PM.