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12+ Fractals build ?


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#31 Puandro

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:03 AM

We run fractals with 2 guards, 1 mesmer, 1 war and 1 necro (power D/D), everyone is tanky dps.

It took you 10 mins to kill the mossman, the only boss where we have time to use 2 timewarps is SOMETIMES on the dredge boss towards the end. Our team kills Mossman 3 times faster than you did in that video and none of use are full glass cannons like you.

You lose so much dps by moving the boss.
Range weapons on almost every class is less dps than melee weapons.
Buffs can't hit everyone at range (example guard shouts are 600).

Stack everything, make everyone be able to take multiple hits, facetank to victory.

#32 Wspc

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:14 AM

View PostPuandro, on 27 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

.....

if you have some time would you mind to link your build please and also your armor and weapons with runes you use?

I'm looking for the best build for dungeons and have hard time to choose between rabid gear and rampager gear since I'm not very experienced in dungeons and have no idea how much I need or not need toughness later. I use mostly GS and Staff since I like to stay ranged but any advise would be great :-D

Thanks in advance if you can help me.

#33 Dream Proxy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:46 PM

I'll try and record some more videos today (currently on FotM 32)  & hopefully get some different levels.

Keep in mind though that I usually run these with pick-up groups, so things in the other video, like the mossman taking so long, were due to more factors than just me being a glass-cannon.

#34 Kelthien

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:36 PM

View Postxxalucard, on 27 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I'll try and record some more videos today (currently on FotM 32)  & hopefully get some different levels.

Keep in mind though that I usually run these with pick-up groups, so things in the other video, like the mossman taking so long, were due to more factors than just me being a glass-cannon.

Thanks! I've totally enjoyed watching!

A quick question, which maybe you've answered and I just can't find it.  Do you think your build is the "only" one that would work for high-level fractals?  I think people on the forums have a tendency to equate a successful build with the only build.  Do you think a support-oriented build or a condition build would be viable in high-level fractals or do they just fall apart compared with your more DPS oriented one?

#35 Dream Proxy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

I think *any build* can work, a straight-dps build is far from the only thing that can make it through the higher-level fractals.  It's just one that I personally prefer.  To be completely honest, making it to a really high level in the fractals, even 50+, doesn't necessarily prove that one build is good or bad.  The only thing that can come close to "proving what's best" is a speed-run with a static group, and having a video to show the combination of everyone's build + playstyle.

A speed-run is usually the way to measure someone's mastery of a video-game, as well as represent how effective their strategy & playing ability is.  Unfortunately, I don't have a static group to run with, so it's hard to prove anything.

All I can really do is show how I play and what general strategies people use at 30+.

#36 Puandro

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostWspc, on 27 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

if you have some time would you mind to link your build please and also your armor and weapons with runes you use?

I'm looking for the best build for dungeons and have hard time to choose between rabid gear and rampager gear since I'm not very experienced in dungeons and have no idea how much I need or not need toughness later. I use mostly GS and Staff since I like to stay ranged but any advise would be great :-D

Thanks in advance if you can help me.

I actually don't play our teams mesmer, i play guardian but my friend plays the mesmer and i made the spec for him.
http://intothemists....9EO92;03;341-2i Null Field or Feedback for 3rd utility, if not use something else and you can get heal = remove condition in inspiration line.

Armor and back piece is Soldiers (Pow/Tough/Vit)
Weapons/Trinkets is Knights (Tough/Crit/Prec)

You only shatter when mobs are dying, usually don't use the defender on small thrash pulls.

Every one of us has 30%+ Crit rating (Before food/buffs) and almost perma Fury so we use Omnomberry Pies, this is key to staying in melee.

Our group sometimes feels a bit over tanky (like sometimes we kill bosses without using our #6), but we kill stuff fast enough it doesn't matter.

Im still tweaking our build as we go along but we could be even more tanky if we made our GS guard go mace/shield.

#37 Graham_Specter

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:24 PM

View Postxxalucard, on 27 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I think *any build* can work, a straight-dps build is far from the only thing that can make it through the higher-level fractals.  It's just one that I personally prefer.  To be completely honest, making it to a really high level in the fractals, even 50+, doesn't necessarily prove that one build is good or bad.  The only thing that can come close to "proving what's best" is a speed-run with a static group, and having a video to show the combination of everyone's build + playstyle.

A speed-run is usually the way to measure someone's mastery of a video-game, as well as represent how effective their strategy & playing ability is.  Unfortunately, I don't have a static group to run with, so it's hard to prove anything.

All I can really do is show how I play and what general strategies people use at 30+.

I suppose I'll chip in here and just say thanks for posting your build earlier. I'm working on accruing all of the staple skills, and I have most of them right now - just need to unlock my last utility slot and my elite skill slot to fully run it. It's a bit hard to work out now, since I'm usually a solo player (my guild are typically busy with events, their own dungeon runs and the like - it's hard for me to grab someone to level with) but against three or maybe even four enemies, I'm usually fine.

Really, I'm surprised people have become so vehement about this. It's pretty dang similar to what's seen as the rising star Thief build at the moment (at least until Backstab gets nerfed or something) and the consensus on THAT subforum seems to be "Well, you learn to dodge and you deal with it." Bearing in mind Mesmers have more than just dodge options - Sword 2 has invulnerability baked in, Distortion is a wonderful thing, so on and so forth. Even on my other level 80, with much more armor (and about the same health) as you have - damage was never a big problem and if it was I was doing something stupid. Staying in the Spider Queen's poison fields, not watching Kholer well enough to see when he spun. Ignoring red circles.

It's a shame my dungeon running guildmates have become such Power/Vit/Toughness elitists - thanks to this one Warrior in particular (no offense to Warriors, again). If my big problem in dungeons is my own stupidity, and I improve, then what does it matter what I run?

#38 Puandro

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

View PostGraham_Specter, on 28 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I suppose I'll chip in here and just say thanks for posting your build earlier. I'm working on accruing all of the staple skills, and I have most of them right now - just need to unlock my last utility slot and my elite skill slot to fully run it. It's a bit hard to work out now, since I'm usually a solo player (my guild are typically busy with events, their own dungeon runs and the like - it's hard for me to grab someone to level with) but against three or maybe even four enemies, I'm usually fine.

Really, I'm surprised people have become so vehement about this. It's pretty dang similar to what's seen as the rising star Thief build at the moment (at least until Backstab gets nerfed or something) and the consensus on THAT subforum seems to be "Well, you learn to dodge and you deal with it." Bearing in mind Mesmers have more than just dodge options - Sword 2 has invulnerability baked in, Distortion is a wonderful thing, so on and so forth. Even on my other level 80, with much more armor (and about the same health) as you have - damage was never a big problem and if it was I was doing something stupid. Staying in the Spider Queen's poison fields, not watching Kholer well enough to see when he spun. Ignoring red circles.

It's a shame my dungeon running guildmates have become such Power/Vit/Toughness elitists - thanks to this one Warrior in particular (no offense to Warriors, again). If my big problem in dungeons is my own stupidity, and I improve, then what does it matter what I run?

Power/Vit/Toughness elitists

what do you mean by this.

#39 Jabtangs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

View Postxxalucard, on 26 November 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

here's a recent run, as promised (fractal of the mist level 28)



FotM Level 28:  0 Toughness, 0 Vitality, 0 Agony-Resistance

Far from perfect, and with a pick-up group.  I tried to fast-forward past the most of the boring parts.

Nice vid, but that's just a lucky run with the 3 easiest fractals you can get at 25+.

Need to see how you do the volcano map at 28 or maybe 30 to convince us that glass cannon works well.

#40 Kelthien

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostPuandro, on 28 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Power/Vit/Toughness elitists

what do you mean by this.

My guess is that he's referring to the people who think pow/vit/toughness is the ONLY way to gear for higher level dungeon play.

Their idea is that survival is the most important focus: a dead player does no damage.  Many posters in this thread argue that there's more to survival than stats.  A glass cannon build like some of the ones proposed rely on player skill to avoid damage rather than Vitality and Toughness and therefor gear for damage instead.

#41 Puandro

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostKelthien, on 28 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:



My guess is that he's referring to the people who think pow/vit/toughness is the ONLY way to gear for higher level dungeon play.

Their idea is that survival is the most important focus: a dead player does no damage.  Many posters in this thread argue that there's more to survival than stats.  A glass cannon build like some of the ones proposed rely on player skill to avoid damage rather than Vitality and Toughness and therefor gear for damage instead.

I dont think you need that type of gear but i do think you need a certain amount of health and toughness before you decide to increase damage. Some stuff you cant argue.

If you are using a range weapon because you are too squishy to melee and your melee weapons are better then you are doing less damage and also most melee weapons cleave.
If you have to keep kiting the enemies instead of stacking them you will kill slower.
Being close to each other means buffs and heals affect you more often.
Some damage will eventually hit you and if you go down it means you dps goes to shit and so does everyone's who goes to rez you. If you are squishy you cant rez as well since sometimes you cant kill something to rally, also squishy ppl are harder to rez when taking damage.
When someone does go down you can instantly rez if everyone is in melee vs some ppl at range and some in melee.

Im a min maxer at heart but i dont tell my group what to run or even pug but you are dragging your team down if you cant dps all the time.

As for the mesmer video it doesnt show that he is bad or good but it does show he is to squishy to melee sometime and he is stuck with sword and cant even auto attack.

#42 Kelthien

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostPuandro, on 28 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I dont think you need that type of gear but i do think you need a certain amount of health and toughness before you decide to increase damage. Some stuff you cant argue.

If you are using a range weapon because you are too squishy to melee and your melee weapons are better then you are doing less damage and also most melee weapons cleave.
If you have to keep kiting the enemies instead of stacking them you will kill slower.
Being close to each other means buffs and heals affect you more often.
Some damage will eventually hit you and if you go down it means you dps goes to shit and so does everyone's who goes to rez you. If you are squishy you cant rez as well since sometimes you cant kill something to rally, also squishy ppl are harder to rez when taking damage.
When someone does go down you can instantly rez if everyone is in melee vs some ppl at range and some in melee.

Im a min maxer at heart but i dont tell my group what to run or even pug but you are dragging your team down if you cant dps all the time.

As for the mesmer video it doesnt show that he is bad or good but it does show he is to squishy to melee sometime and he is stuck with sword and cant even auto attack.

If you haven't, take a read through the thread.  Much of it is Alucard discussing his successes as a full glass cannon (0 vitality, 0 toughness) mesmer in high-level (25+) fractals.  The videos that are posted are of him running some high level fractals with that build and gear set.

He is very squishy but also does an excellent job avoiding fatal damage.  While he needs to back off every now and then and can't attack, his damage is high enough during his "safe periods" to compensate for it.

I don't think it's presented as the only way to play, but it's his way of playing and it's successful for him.  Sure, gear can compensate for skill level to some extent, but it's great to see that Mesmers have the potential to run a glass cannon build when played well.

#43 Puandro

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostKelthien, on 28 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

If you haven't, take a read through the thread.  Much of it is Alucard discussing his successes as a full glass cannon (0 vitality, 0 toughness) mesmer in high-level (25+) fractals.  The videos that are posted are of him running some high level fractals with that build and gear set.

He is very squishy but also does an excellent job avoiding fatal damage.  While he needs to back off every now and then and can't attack, his damage is high enough during his "safe periods" to compensate for it.

I don't think it's presented as the only way to play, but it's his way of playing and it's successful for him.  Sure, gear can compensate for skill level to some extent, but it's great to see that Mesmers have the potential to run a glass cannon build when played well.

I have read the whole thread and i never said its not successful im just saying its not optimal. Now there is nothing wrong with that and i think you should play what you like as long as you have fun and don't make it hard for your group to beat the content. If someone is trying to find the optimal group spec i say everyone being tanky dps is the best way to go but if someone is wondering if being glass mesmer works in fractals at high levels then that video shows it can be.

#44 Kanto

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:23 AM

Trying to melee with a mesmer makes no sense. Roll a warrior, voila, fabled 'melee does more damage' while getting better protection but to each their own.

I've been playing with Knight jewelry, but with all this argument going on I bought Berseker gear and went to give it a try. Done a few dungeons, done a few 10+ fractals...... and yeah, I didn't notice a difference between having or not the extra toughness (400 points). If it works at fractals 20+? Dunno.

Do I play with a sword? Nope. Greatsword. I don't even swap weapons except when I want a speed buff. I'm a terrible player I suppose. But I can't say GW2 ever struck me as a DPS race game.

Done the shatter builds. Yup, extra damage, works, swapping weapons and all. I didn't felt I was helping my party though, and each time I dodged to create a clone was time I was not auto attacking. I only shatter when I need AoE for trash. I've changed to one of my older builds. 20 - 20 - 20 - 0 - 10.

Full berserk (Wurm runes though), I keep my clones up. Since I keep them up they are three more distractions in the battle field to help my team members. I get 9% more damage, 9% less damage from them, clones destroyed cripple, and since I wanted 15 points in Chaos (Godly when teamed with a engineer or a regen banner warrior, but a weak point in the build without them) I added five more to get random-condition-on-death which isn't very useful, but meh, might as well. If I kill the 15 points in Chaos (again, Godly with an engineer or regen banner warrior but mostly useless otherwise) I'd keep ten in Chaos for -9% damage and put it in Illusions to get the extra bounce.

It's a standard build, not super high damage I suppose. But it works. Mostly I feel useful by keeping the battle field littered with distractions and them capable of causing cripple. Above all I say if I wanted to play a meleer by jove, I'd be playing a meleer and not a ranged character.

#45 Reikou

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:27 AM

View PostKanto, on 29 November 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

I'm a terrible player I suppose.

Why are you even posting as if you can offer any sort of advice if you think of yourself as a terrible player?

View PostKelthien, on 28 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

If you haven't, take a read through the thread.  Much of it is Alucard discussing his successes as a full glass cannon (0 vitality, 0 toughness) mesmer in high-level (25+) fractals.  The videos that are posted are of him running some high level fractals with that build and gear set.

He is very squishy but also does an excellent job avoiding fatal damage.  While he needs to back off every now and then and can't attack, his damage is high enough during his "safe periods" to compensate for it.

I don't think it's presented as the only way to play, but it's his way of playing and it's successful for him.  Sure, gear can compensate for skill level to some extent, but it's great to see that Mesmers have the potential to run a glass cannon build when played well.

Every class can, and SHOULD run a glass cannon build if played well.  There really is no reason NOT to run glass cannon.  The problem is, most PvE players don't play well as evidenced by people trying to advocate more bulky or ranged builds to make up for their obvious lack of ability at the game.

I've posted this so many times, but I'll do so again.  Defense in this game can be multiplied to infinity by good use of positioning, dodging and skills.  These are the real defenses, not the statistics on your gear or traits.

Edited by Reikou, 29 November 2012 - 02:37 AM.


#46 Kanto

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:41 AM

View PostReikou, on 29 November 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Why are you even posting as if you can offer any sort of advice if you think of yourself as a terrible player?

I will give you three guesses.

#47 Puandro

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:14 AM

View PostReikou, on 29 November 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Why are you even posting as if you can offer any sort of advice if you think of yourself as a terrible player?



Every class can, and SHOULD run a glass cannon build if played well.  There really is no reason NOT to run glass cannon.  The problem is, most PvE players don't play well as evidenced by people trying to advocate more bulky or ranged builds to make up for their obvious lack of ability at the game.

I've posted this so many times, but I'll do so again.  Defense in this game can be multiplied to infinity by good use of positioning, dodging and skills.  These are the real defenses, not the statistics on your gear or traits.

Yes kiting mobs around and using ranged weapons that do less damage then melee weapons is really the way to go.

#48 Reikou

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:16 AM

View PostPuandro, on 29 November 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Yes kiting mobs around and using ranged weapons that do less damage then melee weapons is really the way to go.

who ever said anything about ranged or melee weapons?

#49 Dream Proxy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:05 PM

Got a chance to record a FotM 36 gameplay last night.  I also fixed some mic issues on my computer recently & included a little commentary with this one.

Let me know if you like the commentary:




(It's a little blurry at whenever there's an arrow shower, but most of the video is in pretty good quality)

#50 Graham_Specter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

View Postxxalucard, on 29 November 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Got a chance to record a FotM 36 gameplay last night.  I also fixed some mic issues on my computer recently & included a little commentary with this one.

Let me know if you like the commentary:




(It's a little blurry at whenever there's an arrow shower, but most of the video is in pretty good quality)

Hmm. You make a strong argument, sir, and one I think I'm going to take you up on. Ah well... Time to begin the long haul of collecting Rubies and running CoF again and again. Just hope I can find a decent looking armor set to transmute it on to - looks silly on non-Charr.

#51 Knacky Knave

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

View Postxxalucard, on 29 November 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Got a chance to record a FotM 36 gameplay last night.  I also fixed some mic issues on my computer recently & included a little commentary with this one.

How did you skip the first part of the siege stage?

#52 Puandro

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:50 PM

View PostKnacky Knave, on 29 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

How did you skip the first part of the siege stage?

Im guessing Blink.

#53 NucMon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

@xxalucard - in the latest video of FotM 36, are you still running the same build you posted earlier in this thread?

#54 Dream Proxy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostKnacky Knave, on 29 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

How did you skip the first part of the siege stage?

If you run to the right and climb the wall a bit to where there's a crack, you can blink to the top of the wall.

View PostNucMon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

@xxalucard - in the latest video of FotM 36, are you still running the same build you posted earlier in this thread?

yes sir

#55 Graham_Specter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

View PostNucMon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

@xxalucard - in the latest video of FotM 36, are you still running the same build you posted earlier in this thread?

Skills look the same, pretty much.

#56 Reikou

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:06 AM

View Postxxalucard, on 29 November 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Got a chance to record a FotM 36 gameplay last night.  I also fixed some mic issues on my computer recently & included a little commentary with this one.

Let me know if you like the commentary:




(It's a little blurry at whenever there's an arrow shower, but most of the video is in pretty good quality)

pretty much proof that lack of DPS is more likely to kill you than lack of survivability.

#57 Nemhy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

View Postxxalucard, on 20 November 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

you may as well go ALL dps, the toughness is kinda pointless because we're gonna die in nearly the same amount of hits either way.

usually conditions, agony, and big hits are what kill us more than what any normal attacks do, and since, [theoretically] there is a way to always dodge / use distortion to avoid a hit, the toughness won't help you sharpen your game.

i understand playstyles are different with mesmers (support / pure damage burst / other roles) but no matter what build you are you should be focusing, at least with your weapons and armor, on how to deal the most damage with that build.  your utilities and weapon-choice is where the support & other non-pure damage roles should come into play.

having more toughness only supports YOU technically, (and quite a limited support at that) and its more of like an unnecessary crutch with mesmer because we're supposed to avoid damage altogether.  we will die very fast, regardless of how much toughness we have, when you compare it to other classes.

usually your best bet of survival is to kill something faster than it kills you, while dodging & using distortion & blink (as well as many other utilities, such as the ones that reflect projectiles) to avoid damage.

when there's a monster that has just the tiniest sliver of health left, and you think "ahh if only i did just a LITTLE more damage, i'd have made it!", it makes you realize toughness on mesmer, even with armor, just plain sucks.


for the record i'm on level 14 myself, and i run a more dps-focused 10/30/0/0/30  sword-focus / greatsword shatter build, with a superior sigil of bloodlust on the GS to make up for the lack of 10 more points in power.

Do you run berserker armor and jewels?

#58 PheBelladona

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:16 AM

seriously i do so much more damage by cleaving with some toughness and vitality. no matter how much you try to defend glass cannon you're still mainly glass - with a mildly improved great sword auto attack. i know you are saying constantly that you are talking and playing (which is harder with push to talk) but you would do more Damage Per Second if you had some survivability.

I stil respect you muchly for posting videos to show how you play and grats on spicing up your life ;)

#59 Dream Proxy

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:39 AM

View PostPheBelladona, on 01 December 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

seriously i do so much more damage by cleaving with some toughness and vitality. no matter how much you try to defend glass cannon you're still mainly glass - with a mildly improved great sword auto attack. i know you are saying constantly that you are talking and playing (which is harder with push to talk) but you would do more Damage Per Second if you had some survivability.

I stil respect you muchly for posting videos to show how you play and grats on spicing up your life ;)

I won't dispute that I'm not constantly cleaving, but for the sake of argument I'd like to see a gameplay of how you are able to constantly cleave & survive.  In my experience, even pure power/tough/vit guardians, that know what they're doing, go down quite often if they take just a few hits from trash mobs (at 30+ fractals).  I don't believe you can survive in such a situation playing the way you're describing-- so I'd like to be proven wrong with a video.  I'll concede right away if you can show me more dps, with less dps gear & stats, and show me it's based more on you personally than something your group is doing.

It also depends on what level fractal you're talking about-- on level 1-10, yes I could probably cleave with even no toughness.  Doesn't work the same on the higher levels.

View PostNemhy, on 30 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Do you run berserker armor and jewels?

Yes

#60 Puandro

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:15 AM

View Postxxalucard, on 01 December 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

I won't dispute that I'm not constantly cleaving, but for the sake of argument I'd like to see a gameplay of how you are able to constantly cleave & survive.  In my experience, even pure power/tough/vit guardians, that know what they're doing, go down quite often if they take just a few hits from trash mobs (at 30+ fractals).  I don't believe you can survive in such a situation playing the way you're describing-- so I'd like to be proven wrong with a video.  I'll concede right away if you can show me more dps, with less dps gear & stats, and show me it's based more on you personally than something your group is doing.

It also depends on what level fractal you're talking about-- on level 1-10, yes I could probably cleave with even no toughness.  Doesn't work the same on the higher levels.



Yes

At low levels (10+) you can cleave and face tank stuff NP on a hammer guard. At higher levels you NEED a phantasm Defender for some mobs/bosses otherwise you get 1-shot. Also its a must that everyone is in melee so that the guardian can heal as much as possible with AH. When everyone is in melee and stacked and the defender is up, its smooth sailing. If everyone panics because they took a few big hits and start to kite away and you start to get less healing its when it gets iffy.

Really i wouldn't recommend my setup with pugs who can't melee but with a set group it def shines.

Still i must commend you for running full berserker in a pug at high fractal levels.




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