233 replies to this topic

[Shadowrose]

3 weeks ago, it was the universal trend to disregard any negative feedback towards ANet and their amazing game, whether it was valid criticism or just pointless ranting. Those posts would commonly be treated as trash, and the posters would be called anywhere from "whiners" to "wow fanboys". They were also promptly asked to leave this game because "this is no wow clone and we don't need people like you in here", or the famous "no one will miss you".

Now, it looks like there's no longer the need to remind anyone of how different this game is, or how there's no supposed "carrot on a stick". It looks like GW2 wasn't the best thing ever.

It's a sad realization, I know, I've been through that before but I'm over it now.

I wonder though...

Are the Ascended items enough of a reason to throw away everything you believed in? the stats aren't so much better compared to exotics FYI.

Everything else worth complaining about has already been here from the start. The RNG factor (final karka event), the gem shop unfairness, the poor customer service, the lagging, the lack of content, etc.

However, everytime that someone complained about any of that, it was immediately frowned upon and / or laughed at.

I sense a strong sense of entitlement nowadays, 90% of the latest threads are complaining about something, and this time it doesn't seem that the "whiners" are the ones starting them.

And now finally, when some end game content makes its way to GW2, the forums explode in rage, as if those ascended items were enough to ruin this perfect game you've been playing all this time.

So what gives? This game has only 3 months, after all.  I'm amazed at how quickly the general opinion about GW2 has changed over the last week. Just know that y'all are overreacting just as badly as the people who you laughed at back then.

PS: I don't hate gw2, I just know that it's not perfect, and pointing some of its flaws has gone to ridiculous extents throughout these 3 months (I remember having to justify to 2-3 people WHY did I give 8/10 to GW2)

[Reikou]

3 weeks ago anet didn't completely abandon the game that they set out to make with the manifesto.

[ScoutMATH]

i don't hate a.net. i hate how the game lose track of its direction. this might not be solely a.net's fault because they're a subsidiary and say if there are hostile people from above ranks intimidating you, you can't do anything about it. and bad thing that is that they're in the frontlines. it is they that will seem to us a liars and i think it is unfair to them.

What should happen:

but instead of being a grindy Korean MMO (why would they convert GW2 to a grindy MMO, there are zillions existing now, we have also an American Grindy MMO called WoW)what should've been done is that they kept exotics and added new content. and to raise the bar, they shouldve just let our current exotics be upgraded/slotted for new upgrades to be used vs the new content (look GW1 insignias). but no, they introduce these new tier of gear that cost 200g to get and fully infused (backslot) and cost lot of time to get (rings). The rest, to follow.


But hey, Nexon could be sabotaging GW2 coz they don't want a non-grindy MMO dominating the grindy MMO market. And the beginning has just started. Advanced RIP to GW2.

Things are f-ed up.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Shadowrose]

Reikou, on 20 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

3 weeks ago anet didn't completely abandon the game that they set out to make with the manifesto.

So a new gear tier, that it isn't really that much better than exotics, means that they have completely abandoned their game?

[MazingerZ]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

So a new gear tier, that it isn't really that much better than exotics, means that they have completely abandoned their game?

The math points out that the gear is 10-40% better than exotics, averaging 20% greater, un-Infused.

[Lordkrall]

MazingerZ, on 20 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

The math points out that the gear is 10-40% better than exotics, averaging 20% greater, un-Infused.

Funny how these numbers keep changing everytime some one uses them.
I have heard 3%, 4%, 8%, 13%, 20%, 80% and now 40% difference.

[ScoutMATH]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Funny how these numbers keep changing everytime some one uses them.
I have heard 3%, 4%, 8%, 13%, 20%, 80% and now 40% difference.

even it is .000999% difference, it's still better.

1.000999 > 1.000000

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[MazingerZ]

Lordkrall, on 20 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Funny how these numbers keep changing everytime some one uses them.
I have heard 3%, 4%, 8%, 13%, 20%, 80% and now 40% difference.

I had heard 20% in several places, but someone who confirmed also thru in 10-40, and considering its different items and slots, with stat values that scale differenyly like crt damage, I can assume it would't be a straight 20% markup.

[Lordkrall]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

even it is .000999% difference, it's still better.

1.000999 > 1.000000

Higher, yes.
Better, not always true.

[sevalaricgirl]

I love the game, am a staunch supporter and who cares about the Ascended armor.  I think it's really petty to base your opinion of a game around one set of items that may or may not be of use anywhere but a dungeon.  Come on people.  You have no idea if ANet is going to carry this outside the dungeon and put agony in the level 80 PvE areas.  It's for a bloody dungeon that you don't even have to enter.

Edited by sevalaricgirl, 20 November 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[JONO51]

Boiling point. The final straw. Pushed over the edge.

[Coren]

I'm a GW fanboy, and proud of the positive and negative that it brings. The fact that agony was introduced doesn't bother me in the slightest, it's just a way to get to a higher level in fractals. What I do mind is the stat increase. No matter how small, it's still an increase. Anet has completely ignored what made GW1 great, that gear was completely unimportant, over skill. Sure skills are still extremely important for your role, but now you have to add numbers to it. Weapon stats bonuses like health, enchant extra time and the like were not as important as your skills.

[DuskWolf]

The problem with the Ascended gear is that it represents both a brokoen promise, and a promise made anew.

The broken promise: The game had the potential to further move away from the generic WoW approach to MMORPGs, and ArenaNet might have had the will to do it. I absolutely despise WoW, LOTRO, and games of that ilk. I prefer Mass Effect 3's multi-player, Guild Wars 1, Champions Online, and so on. Games that aren't completely fixated upon progression, games which are zippy, fast, fun, and have great AI. GW2 was born clumsy and slow, but it might have had the chance get better. To become more like what I'd want to play. That was the promise. That promise was broken.

The new promise: From the ashes of what could have been rises a WoW clone, the new promise is that they're going to be taking steps towards making their game more and more like WoW. I think many of us had worries nagging at the back of our minds because of the beta weekend shenanigans (dyes and utility skill unlocks, anyone?), but we were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. We did, and they broke their old promise and made this new one. But this new game, this game that chases the coat-tails of WoW, is not the game we wanted. It feels... ultimate. Final.

The future of GW2 is that fights are going to be determined by numbers, never skill. In Mass Effect 3's multi-player you can take a brand new character into multi-player and you can rock gold difficulty. Do you know why? Much of the game is horizontal, new classes and weapons get new skills rather than better or worse ones, and the gun upgrades are rare and amount to a sub-1% upgrade (until they reach a power plateau, rank X, where the numbers stop). If GW2 had been more like ME3's multi-player in many ways, I think we could have been very, very happy.

What this means, now?

- No power plateau. Your new 'power plateau' is called power creep, expect endlessly moving goalposts.
- Horizontal progression has gone the way of the dodo, every upgrade is outright better rather than different.
- The focus will be on making the game more challenging based upon equipment numbers rather than skill.
- Due to the above, you'll never get to feel good because of skills, because your numbers will end up worth 90% of your success.
- This will continue to trickle into and contaminate PvP until it ends up as bad as WAR did (for the same reason).

GW2 is dead. I can't say 'long live GW2' because I really don't think I want this new GW2 to do so. Instead, I've said my fond goodbyes and I've left this game to its fate. I am sad about this. You have no idea. This is "what's happened to Tyrian Assembly," and this is why the most recent change has resulted in such a profound reaction. We know the way the wind is blowing, now. Many of us were just waiting to see what ArenaNet would do, we had that feeling in the pit of our stomachs that they might do something horrible. That's confirmed. The promise of GW2, the original promise, is dead.

What I 'believed in' was the original promise. ArenaNet has explained in very patronising and not at all uncertain terms that the old promise is dead. What else is there to believe in, in regards to this game?

Edited by DuskWolf, 20 November 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Zippor]

DuskWolf, on 20 November 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

The problem with the Ascended gear is that it represents both a brokoen promise, and a promise made anew.

The broken promise: The game had the potential to further move away from the generic WoW approach to MMORPGs, and ArenaNet might have had the will to do it. I absolutely despise WoW, LOTRO, and games of that ilk. I prefer Mass Effect 3's multi-player, Guild Wars 1, Champions Online, and so on. Games that aren't completely fixated upon progression, games which are zippy, fast, fun, and have great AI. GW2 was born clumsy and slow, but it might have had the chance get better. To become more like what I'd want to play. That was the promise. That promise was broken.

The new promise: From the ashes of what could have been rises a WoW clone, the new promise is that they're going to be taking steps towards making their game more and more like WoW. I think many of us had worries nagging at the back of our minds because of the beta weekend shenanigans (dyes and utility skill unlocks, anyone?), but we were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. We did, and they broke their old promise and made this new one. But this new game, this game that chases the coat-tails of WoW, is not the game we wanted. It feels... ultimate. Final.

The future of GW2 is that fights are going to be determined by numbers, never skill. In Mass Effect 3's multi-player you can take a brand new character into multi-player and you can rock gold difficulty. Do you know why? Much of the game is horizontal, new classes and weapons get new skills rather than better or worse ones, and the gun upgrades are rare and amount to a sub-1% upgrade (until they reach a power plateau, rank X, where the numbers stop). If GW2 had been more like ME3's multi-player in many ways, I think we could have been very, very happy.

What this means, now?

- No power plateau. Your new 'power plateau' is called power creep, expect endlessly moving goalposts.
- Horizontal progression has gone the way of the dodo, every upgrade is outright better rather than different.
- The focus will be on making the game more challenging based upon equipment numbers rather than skill.
- Due to the above, you'll never get to feel good because of skills, because your numbers will end up worth 90% of your success.
- This will continue to trickle into and contaminate PvP until it ends up as bad as WAR did (for the same reason).

GW2 is dead. I can't say 'long live GW2' because I really don't think I want this new GW2 to do so. Instead, I've said my fond goodbyes and I've left this game to its fate. I am sad about this. You have no idea. This is "what's happened to Tyrian Assembly," and this is why the most recent change has resulted in such a profound reaction. We know the way the wind is blowing, now. Many of us were just waiting to see what ArenaNet would do, we had that feeling in the pit of our stomachs that they might do something horrible. That's confirmed. The promise of GW2, the original promise, is dead.

What I 'believed in' was the original promise. ArenaNet has explained in very patronising and not at all uncertain terms that the old promise is dead. What else is there to believe in, in regards to this game?

Games like ME3 don't have even a fraction of the longetivity that a MMO with vertical progression has, these games are intended as a timesink most of the time. It will be fun for a while to tackle so called 'challenging' ME3 multiplayer but it's not that challenging in the end, same case with GW2 only in different flavor (worse flavor most would argue). The real challenge will always be competition, in otherwords, PvP. But in GW2 the real competition is not affected by the power creep, sPvP is an isolated game mode that will play by changing balance only. WvW was never real PvP, don't even think about it.

Edited by Zippor, 20 November 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[Shadowrose]

sevalaricgirl, on 20 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I love the game, am a staunch supporter and who cares about the Ascended armor.  I think it's really petty to base a game around one set of items that may or may not be of use anywhere but a dungeon.  Come on people.  You have no idea if ANet is going to carry this outside the dungeon and put agony in the level 80 PvE areas.  It's for a bloody dungeon that you don't even have to enter.

^

Tbh I find this whole situation hilarious, to see how the tables turned so much.

It's not that bad people, really! Cheer up.

[bdatty]

The most noticeable game changing, ink on paper, was the rarity increase. Like Sauron's eye starring at you. Adding ascended gear is a great way to motivate people for future content ahead, and a nice way to solve a bit of the 'there is no content' group, but at the same time if they're going to do this, they should add a crap load of skins to weapon/armor to compensate for people who are just in it for the look while pleasing the other group. You know, hand and hand.

Edited by bdatty, 20 November 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[blindude]

MazingerZ, on 20 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

The math points out that the gear is 10-40% better than exotics, averaging 20% greater, un-Infused.

no way youm must not be taking into account that the char has also base stats

[Milennin]

Game is going into a wrong direction, against original promises. I'm not quitting that easily, but if they continue with these nonsense decisions, and stuff become worse, I'll start looking for something better to play.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Long-time fangirl here. Been with Anet since the inception of Prophecies. I personally have faith in Anet still - I'm willing to give them time to see how this game turns out. I've clocked in nearly 400 hours - a staggering amount - and I am still discovering new things about the game.

Does the gear treadmilling bother me? Maybe a little. But they're right in that there is a part of their content that I don't have to experience to optimally engage the game. And, frankly, the fact that other players may have bigger numbers don't bother me at all. I play this game for the progress, not for the end goal. Physically, I know that I hit those buttons to achieve a particular goal of killing a mob. Conceptually, however, it feel as if I was there. Myself. Transported into a magical world and seen through the lens of my character.

Am I frustrated by the general community's behavior? Of course. But that's not going to stop me from playing my part for the community. Even if it means leaving mapchat on.

[Kovares]

MazingerZ, on 20 November 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I had heard 20% in several places, but someone who confirmed also thru in 10-40, and considering its different items and slots, with stat values that scale differenyly like crt damage, I can assume it would't be a straight 20% markup.

Also, those numbers won't reflect the true impact of raised stats, since they effectively function multiplicatively. For simplicity, let's assume average damage = power * critchance * crit damage, and you see that a 20% increase in each one of them will yield a good bit more then 20% damage in the end. Thus, even comparatively small increases like 5% or 10% can become significant.

[typographie]

DuskWolf, on 20 November 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

What I 'believed in' was the original promise. ArenaNet has explained in very patronising and not at all uncertain terms that the old promise is dead. What else is there to believe in, in regards to this game?

Seriously, can you not read your own post and see how absurdly melodramatic that sounds? If you're going to leave, leave. We simply don't need a wall of text.

They added one tier of gear between a tier that takes hours to get, and a tier that takes months to get. A "gear treadmill," by definition, is a very granular tier increase every major update ad infinitum. There is absolutely no reason to believe Anet plans to add another tier between Ascended and Legendary at this point. This all seems to boil down to, "based on my own personal anxieties they're going to <insert accusation here>, just you watch!"

[Zippor]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

There is absolutely no reason to believe Anet plans to add another tier between Ascended and Legendary at this point. This all seems to boil down to, "based on my own personal anxieties they're going to <insert accusation here>, just you watch!"

It's the slippery slope fallacy, everyone seems to fall for it in this subject.

[fs23otm]

It is because people are very shallow as a whole. They bind to things like the manifesto as if it was the holy grail.

I look at the game as a game, I enjoy playing it. My wife enjoys playing it. Online games evolve and change over time, and we play it how we want and enjoy it. When we stop enjoying it, we stop playing.

People need to stop throwing out the baby with the bath water.... Just because you don't like a change doesn't mean everything the game had come to be is now all of a sudden terrible.

I think WoW is still a great game, so is EQ, LotR, Rift, etc.... I just completed my time with them. I did the things I wanted to in those games, and when I was done, I left. Will I go back to those games? Sure, if they offer me something that I would find enjoyable.

[Blackdeathteal]

Meh at the new gear tier doesnt effect gameplay in the slightest unless you are in that grear treadmill state of mind i may work on them eventually as of now couldnt care less
the event wasnt as well thought out as i would have liked but i loved halloween , the only real issue I have is the rng cash shop chests they need to put a nail in a coffin with thats mentality

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

Haven´t really noticed any change in the past few weeks, but I did notice that it has changed over the last couple of months. Instead of mostly positive, optimistic discussion, "crystal ball scrying" and generally fun talk, the forum is now full with pessimistic tinfoil hat topics and complaints about how Anet broke their promises.

And rightly so.

[FoxBat]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

They added one tier of gear between a tier that takes hours to get, and a tier that takes months to get. A "gear treadmill," by definition, is a very granular tier increase every major update ad infinitum. There is absolutely no reason to believe Anet plans to add another tier between Ascended and Legendary at this point.

New tier isn't needed for a treadmill, between new slots being rolled out slowly and ever improving infusions, the stage is set. Ascendeds need to be crafted rather than dropped, so it's not like we are necessarily going to see them being created at a faster rate once they take up more slots.

I'm fully expecting level cap raise with x-packs too, meaning you basically have to re-get your max gear every expansion. Ascendeds ensure that process will takes much longer than before. Even better when you get hit with upgrading X slots at once vs. the 3 we have now.

Edited by FoxBat, 20 November 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Shadowrose]

FoxBat, on 20 November 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

I'm fully expecting level cap raise with x-packs too, meaning you basically have to re-get your max gear every expansion. Ascendeds ensure that process will takes much longer than before. Even better when you get hit with upgrading X slots at once vs. the 3 we have now.

Is that a bad thing?

A game eventually needs new content.

[Alleji]

The November patch happened with its event and with the new tier of gear.

I gave up the opinion that it was the "MMO Jesus" during the beta, but I still believed anet was taking things in a new direction and they could eventually get there, or at least pave the way for a future title (maybe even GW3).

With the better-gear-every-patch approach they took in this patch, they did a complete 180 turn on their philosophy and that's... disappointing, to say the least. Prophecies and Factions were absolutely brilliant and delivered the best moments out of all gaming for me personally. So I kept believing that anet could pull that off again. With the November patch they gave a pretty clear sign that they're not willing to try in that direction anymore.

I'll probably play for another year or so, until the gear resets take over, because for now I still think fractals is the best thing ever and I'm just enjoying progressing deeper into it (not even for the loot, just for the progression itself) and beyond that there's more stuff I want to do, but this change of philosophy still sucks.

Edited by Alleji, 20 November 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[typographie]

FoxBat, on 20 November 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

New tier isn't needed for a treadmill, between new pieces being rolled out slowly and ever improving infusions, the stage is set.

I'm fully expecting level cap raise with x-packs too, meaning you basically have to re-get your max gear every expansion. Ascendeds ensure that process will takes much longer than before. Even better when you get hit with upgrading X slots at once vs. the 3 we have now.

The new pieces being rolled out will be Ascended gear, with the specific stat budget allocated to Ascended gear. That's the same new tier we're already talking about. I'm not sure the design is for infusions to steadily, incrementally increase in power every update, but if I'm incorrect on that I'd be glad to look at any Anet quote proving otherwise.

Things you "fully expect" to happen are pretty much exactly what I was talking about. I'd rather we weren't lighting up the forums for pages and pages on that sort of baseless conjecture.

Alleji, on 20 November 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

I gave up the opinion that it was the "MMO Jesus" during the beta,

I never believed it much to begin with, every developer claims their game is the next new thing that will revolutionize the industry. On the flip side, I even enjoyed WoW. So its a win-win for me, I could probably continue to enjoy the game with even the most extreme of gear treadmills. I just don't believe there's enough proof out there that that's where we're headed.

Edited by typographie, 20 November 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[Kymeric]

It doesn't really matter whether the new gear is a 1% bonus or 40%.

The fact is that ANet has stated we needed a gear increase to continue having progression at endgame.

Once they've decided that, there is no stopping.  If people need a slight increase over Exotic because they've gotten all of their Exotics, it's ludicrous to think they won't need a slight increase over Ascended as soon as a good portion have achieved a full set of Ascended.  Over the life of the game, insignificant increases will eventually add up to significant increases, and then what?

There is no such thing as "almost gear progression".  There is either gear progression, or gear plateau.