233 replies to this topic

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 21 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Maybe they reseted the price (I have a small doubt and I don't want to do any research...I know they did something with rune and dye traders to give them a common stock for all region), but that's not why Absorption runes stopped being expensive...Vigor runes were still expensive after this update weren't they ?

If the Absorption runes price was reset, it doesn't make sense that Vigor runes price wasn't.

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PvE skills might be more important than LB for DoA, but you are losing sight of the argument. The argument was : "GW1 title weren't really important". I showed that the LB title gave as much bonuses as ascended armor/weapons (depending on who you ask you get a 3%-40% increase), thus clearly showing that titles in GW1 weren't as negligeable as some people think.

Now whether or not you actually need those titles in GW1 is another story, because until you actually do the content, you cannot say for sure that you actually need Ascended armors.

Actually I never said that GW1 titles were "not important".  However, my opinion would depend on what you mean by "not important".  Obviously some titles have an effect and EOTN reputation is an example.  So in that context, I would say that your relevant EOTN reputation would have more of an effect in your performance in DoA than your LB title.

If you think that the LB title is important to you, you can easily max that in 2-3 days of farming.  I recall that our original argument was  the ease of acquiring max stat gear in GW1 vs GW2, but you brought in LB title into this which is totally out of context.  

Furthermore LB title only applies to a very specific area of the Nightfall expansion.  It has zero effect outside of that specific area.  By bringing this up, it seems to me that you are grasping at straws from all corners just to defend your point that GW1 has as much grind as GW2 to acquire max stat gear, which is certainly not the case.

Edited by Daesu, 21 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[RedStar]

Daesu, on 21 November 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

If the Absorption runes price was reset, it doesn't make sense that Vigor runes price wasn't.

Actually I never said that GW1 titles were "not important".  However, my opinion would depend on what you mean by "not important".  Obviously some titles have an effect and EOTN reputation is an example.  So in that context, I would say that your relevant EOTN reputation would have more of an effect in your performance in DoA than your LB title.

If you think that the LB title is important to you, you can easily max that in 2-3 days of farming.  I recall that our original argument was  the ease of acquiring max stat gear in GW1 vs GW2, but you brought in LB title into this which is totally out of context.  

Furthermore LB title only applies to a very specific area of the Nightfall expansion.  It has zero effect outside of that specific area.  By bringing this up, it seems to me that you are grasping at straws from all corners just to defend your point that GW1 has as much grind as GW2 to acquire max stat gear, which is certainly not the case.

You know what, I actually did some research :
"The damage reduction is non-stacking and is applied to every source of damage, regardless of which piece of armor it hits." That's what happened, that's why it dropped in price.
You are saying that a reset is why those runes fell in price, yet if that reset did happen, then it should have came back up, just like vigor runes did. But it didn't, because they changed how it worked.

I brought in the LB title, because you honestly can't choose to leave something out if you want to talk about things that make your character stronger. That's like saying that a max armor in GW1 is only 6k and the mats when it isn't, there's also runes  and insignias.
Saying that LB title takes 2 days to max is like saying that Ascended rings/backpack and infusions take 2 days to get : it can be true depending on how much and how efficiently you play.

I'm not grasping at anything, I simply do not get how you can say how "easy and fast" getting to the power plateau was in GW1 when it wasn't.
Concerning GW2, of course GW1 didn't have that much "grind" (whatever that means to you). But honestly, the only place (for now) where content is actually scaled towards ascended equipment and infusions is in fractals 10+. If you play through them you'll eventually get your equipment.
Now if Anet introduces a second dungeon, and you actually need to grind in the first dungeon to get the necessary gear to play in the second dungeon, that's what I find to be a gear treadmill. But right now, you aren't grinding in the first 10 levels, you are playing through them because you need to in order to unlock a higher level.

That's also a little why I'm not talking about PvE skills : they made content easier, but Anet didn't balance a part of the game around them. If anything, they gave PvE skills for players that needed them to finish content. But the LB tittle was introduced with NF, they expected players to use it.

[Robsy128]

Kymeric, on 21 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

You know those are two different groups of people, right?

Not always. I see a lot of familiar names saying the same thing. 'We don't have content!' then the new content comes along, they burn through it, and they find something else to complain about.
Sometimes there are things to complain about - sometimes there aren't. This whole gold system, for instance, definitely needs to be sorted out. I really can't make more than 5G within a week through normal play, so I have no hope of getting max stat gear anytime soon for one character, let alone my 8 other alts.

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 21 November 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

You know what, I actually did some research :
"The damage reduction is non-stacking and is applied to every source of damage, regardless of which piece of armor it hits." That's what happened, that's why it dropped in price.
You are saying that a reset is why those runes fell in price, yet if that reset did happen, then it should have came back up, just like vigor runes did. But it didn't, because they changed how it worked.

Vigor rune price didn't go all the way back up either.  They were much more expensive in the past until the reset.

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I brought in the LB title, because you honestly can't choose to leave something out if you want to talk about things that make your character stronger. That's like saying that a max armor in GW1 is only 6k and the mats when it isn't, there's also runes  and insignias.
Saying that LB title takes 2 days to max is like saying that Ascended rings/backpack and infusions take 2 days to get : it can be true depending on how much and how efficiently you play.

I was talking about gear and you insist on bringing in LB title which is really out of context.  Furthermore, the LB title is only applicable in a small part of the entire game and can be maxed in 2 days.  Gear, on the other hand, is applicable to the whole game.

Just read what you yourself wrote and honestly say if you are biased or not.  Do you honestly think that getting Ascended gear in 2 days is as easy as maxing LB title in 2 days?

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Concerning GW2, of course GW1 didn't have that much "grind" (whatever that means to you). But honestly, the only place (for now) where content is actually scaled towards ascended equipment and infusions is in fractals 10+. If you play through them you'll eventually get your equipment.

And the plan is to add more of such places.  Also Ascended superior stats are applicable anywhere in the game.  No matter how you see it, it is still a grind to get them.

Edited by Daesu, 21 November 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[RedStar]

Daesu, on 21 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Vigor rune price didn't go all the way back up either.  They were much more expensive in the past until the reset.



I was talking about gear and you insist on bringing in LB title which is really out of context.  Furthermore, the LB title is only applicable in a small part of the entire game and can be maxed in 2 days.  Gear, on the other hand, is applicable to the whole game.

Just read what you yourself wrote and honestly say if  you are not biased.  Do you honestly think that getting Ascended gear in 2 days is as easy as maxing LB title in 2 days?



And the plan is to add more of such places.  Also Ascended superior stats are applicable anywhere in the game.  No matter how you see it, it is still a grind.

I'm going to stop talking about runes.

I already said that I cannot look at GW1 as a new player. I didn't get LB in 2 days, I don't know how much time it would take a new player to get it.
It's easy to get because you are killing the same monsters over and over again. Getting Ascended is harder because you have to actually do something.

And we'll talk about that when Anet actually implements it. But so far : you didn't need those items to do this content before, right ? Because that's the same thing as PvE skill...unless you admit to needing PvE skills in order to play GW1.
So suddenly you have to grind to play older dungeons ? Hell, you can even play Fractals till level 10 before you start needing those items.
So you aren't locked from any kind of content, the most common thing people complain about.

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 21 November 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I'm going to stop talking about runes.

I already said that I cannot look at GW1 as a new player. I didn't get LB in 2 days, I don't know how much time it would take a new player to get it.

When the new player reaches the desolation, he should be able to max it in 2 days.  GW1 is easy.

Quote

It's easy to get because you are killing the same monsters over and over again. Getting Ascended is harder because you have to actually do something.

And we'll talk about that when Anet actually implements it. But so far : you didn't need those items to do this content before, right ? Because that's the same thing as PvE skill...unless you admit to needing PvE skills in order to play GW1.
So suddenly you have to grind to play older dungeons ? Hell, you can even play Fractals till level 10 before you start needing those items.

Ascended items are not just for Fractals level 10, their stats are still good enough to be useful outside of FOTM.  Since I hate jumping puzzles, it would certainly be a grind for me to play FOTM.  I am only at level 1 as I have no motivation to be forced to play something that I dislike.

Edited by Daesu, 21 November 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[RedStar]

Daesu, on 21 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

When the new player reaches the desolation, he should be able to max it in 2 days.  GW1 is easy.

Ascended items are not just for Fractals level 10, their stats are still good enough to be useful outside of FOTM.  Since I hate jumping puzzles, it would certainly be a grind for me to play FOTM.  I am only at level 1 as I have no motivation to be forced to play something that I dislike.

I find GW1 easy. But I've played it for such a long time, I learned so many things that of course I find it easy. I've done it over and over and over again. But when a new player reaches the desolation, he won't get max LB in 2 days. That's for sure. It's not a question of difficulty, it's a question of grinding.

Oh come one, Fractals don't have jumping puzzles. I probably didn't see all of them.
I did :
-Grawls (You can't call that a jumping puzzle)
-Dredges
-Swamp (I rather if it had a jumping puzzle...)
-Jade
-Underwater
-Snow
-Giant.

The Giant one being the most frustrating one...It's not a jumping puzzle though. It's a question of patience, patience to not rush and get blown away by the wind (especially if you can't revive and no one can resurrect you thanks to a horrible bug that I don't know if Anet fixed).
Maybe there's a full jumping puzzle one that I didn't see yet. I'm only at level 4.

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 21 November 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I find GW1 easy. But I've played it for such a long time, I learned so many things that of course I find it easy. I've done it over and over and over again. But when a new player reaches the desolation, he won't get max LB in 2 days. That's for sure. It's not a question of difficulty, it's a question of grinding.

Of course he would be able to max it in 2 days.  It is a wurm farm and it is really hard for you to wipe in a wurm party.

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The Giant one being the most frustrating one...It's not a jumping puzzle though. It's a question of patience, patience to not rush and get blown away by the wind (especially if you can't revive and no one can resurrect you thanks to a horrible bug that I don't know if Anet fixed).
Maybe there's a full jumping puzzle one that I didn't see yet. I'm only at level 4.

No there are more scenarios that require jumping over long distances or jumping over moving lines in an "escalator" that can 1-hit kill you, than just the Giant one.  I didn't like it at all.

Unless you really love jumping puzzles, FOTM is a grind.

Edited by Daesu, 21 November 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[Apoth]

Zippor, on 20 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

It's the slippery slope fallacy, everyone seems to fall for it in this subject.

maybe you're just a noob but when a game company starts adding tiers of gear the idea that they will stop at one is just foolish and downright stupid.

[badra al duun]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

There is absolutely no reason to believe Anet plans to add another tier between Ascended and Legendary at this point.

That isn't true, they did it once, and they said the wouldn't do it again for "at least 3 months". Like it or not, that's the record at this point.  We can't impute too much into what that statement meant, but it was laid out in black and white.

I kinda don't care if ascended represents "the final tier" as it's 1 too many, personally.

Edited by badra al duun, 21 November 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[RedStar]

Daesu, on 21 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Of course he would be able to max it in 2 days.  It is a wurm farm and it is really hard for you to wipe in a wurm party.



No there are more scenarios that require jumping over long distances or jumping over moving lines in an "escalator" that can 1-hit kill you, than just the Giant one.  I didn't like it at all.

Unless you really love jumping puzzles, FOTM is a grind.

Like I said, it's time consuming and exceptionally boring.

And I checked on the wiki, there's only one Fractal that includes jumping and it's the Uncategorized Fractal (never did it). So yeah, guess you were unlucky, because I don't consider any of the other fractals to be on par with even the simplest of jumping puzzles. Not even the Giant one because there's not a single jump in it.

[Zippor]

Apoth, on 21 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

maybe you're just a noob but when a game company starts adding tiers of gear the idea that they will stop at one is just foolish and downright stupid.

Excuse me? Where in my comment did I somehow say that I necessarily disagree with the argument? Just because I wanted to point out an overly used fallacy, doesn't mean that I disagree or invalidate the idea behind it. I have heard the fears for increasing gear treadmill coming into the game and I think it's a very valid concern, but I'm not ready to assume anything because I just don't think like that.

[Hector]

JONO51, on 20 November 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Boiling point. The final straw. Pushed over the edge.

This

I think we all knew that there were problems with the game this whole time but for Anets visions and the fact that they at least seemed to be pulling it off kept me happy. Unlike most hardcores (I considered myself a hardcore player of GW2, don't play anymore though) that wanted progression I understood that this game stood for something else and that endgame was WvW which was AMAZING.

The minute that Anet reversed 5 years of media blitz and manifesto was the minute my rose colored glasses came off and I saw the game for what it was. A buggy, grind-ish, bore of a game. Leveling an alt was painful to me and besides my main ele I never got another character to 80. But I was almost there and I was doing it because I already had my exotic, and final pieces of gear, that my guardian would have needed. I just don't want to do it anymore. Why would I continue playing an alt at this point? The grind is now outrageous.

So in conclusion, this move was so out of nowhere that it forced most of Anets most loyal customers to open their eyes. Turns out that wasn't a good thing.

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 21 November 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Like I said, it's time consuming and exceptionally boring.

Doesn't matter, it is still easy.

Quote

And I checked on the wiki, there's only one Fractal that includes jumping and it's the Uncategorized Fractal (never did it). So yeah, guess you were unlucky, because I don't consider any of the other fractals to be on par with even the simplest of jumping puzzles. Not even the Giant one because there's not a single jump in it.

The Giant one does have the stupid wind effect which surprised us when we were not aware of it.  I wish they could have warned us about the wind.  Yes, it is annoying.

When I came back home from a hard day at work where I have been taxing my brains throughout the day, I just want to lay back, switch off, and enjoy a simple game.  Perhaps I should have just watched a movie.

Edited by Daesu, 22 November 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[Zippor]

The FotM was advertised as a "high-end dungeon experience that will be challenging" and you're going in assuming that it's relaxing? Maybe you should just stick with the movies if a very simple trap mechanic or any mechanic at all you aren't aware of comes off as 'annoying'. Why should a dungeon designed to be a challenge hold your hand while you go through it?

[Daesu]

Zippor, on 22 November 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

The FotM was advertised as a "high-end dungeon experience that will be challenging" and you're going in assuming that it's relaxing? Maybe you should just stick with the movies if a very simple trap mechanic or any mechanic at all you aren't aware of comes off as 'annoying'. Why should a dungeon designed to be a challenge hold your hand while you go through it?

Yup I should just stick with the movies.  Orr wasn't all that relaxing either.

The wind effect is only a problem when you are not aware of it.  Someone in my party suddenly got pushed off and died and said "WTF!"  Once I am aware of it, it is not a problem waiting for the right timing.  But if ArenaNet posted a warning to beware of the wind, that first death could have been avoided.

It is not challenging, it is a sneaky 1-hit kill on the side.  I don't find sneaky 1-hit kills challenging.  A feature that this game is full of.  It is just a stupid unfair way to rake up repair cost as the rest of the party who didn't fall would not be able to res you (bug?) and have to fight without you.  The only way to avoid that is to have everyone jump to their death and retry.  Yes, stupid, I know.

Edited by Daesu, 22 November 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[DuskWolf]

Hector, on 21 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

So in conclusion, this move was so out of nowhere that it forced most of Anets most loyal customers to open their eyes. Turns out that wasn't a good thing.

I like you, you're honest.

It's the same for me, and I've admitted my idiocy recently in the forums. What it is is that I was passionate about one element of their game - the charr. That was enough to get me interested, at least. I like beast races done well. But what drove me over the edge in my desire to support them is that they promised paradigm shifts. I like paradigm shifts.

They promised to take what we knew and turn it upon its head, in regards to the game's lore, and in regards to the gameplay itself. I got on board with that. I'd have been a fool not to. It was this zeal they had for just completely abandoning everything that came before that I found entirely intoxicating, they were on this mad, mad quixotic quest! It was insane. I'd supported people before who'd promised to do this and had, but they did it in more niche genres. Mass Effect did it with sci-fi, Champions Online did it with comic books, but there's one institution that has fanatical purists guarding the gates, one genre that refuses to change or evolve: Fantasy.

They promised change. They told me that the beast race of their game would be the most intelligent, and that they'd have these grand, grand works of technological prowess. They said that the charr had become civilised and clever, that they weren't just tribal idiots. They told me that their gameplay was going to be quick, and fun, and filled with variety and novelty. They told me that the grind would be minimal, and that the entirety of the game would be open to me via one method or another, without gating. These were impressive ideas.

No other MMO developer had really promised this. They had promised to do WoW better, but fraknly? Screw WoW. I hate WoW. It's great for those that like it, but I'm just not a fan. I'm not down with it, I don't think it's cool that it's a metagame about abusing the weak wills of people via skinnerboxes, operant conditioning, and treadmills. To me, WoW is more of a social experiment than a game. It's a very successful social experiment, but it's not a very good game. Whenever I played it, I didn't find it fun. I wanted fun. I'm a big fan of fun.

But WoW was ready to restrict me at every turn, slow combat, monotonous grind, copy-pasted content, sterile trading of blows with foes. Hey, I swung my sword again and all that. We'll change all that. And I wanted to believe them. But each little thing they did made me more and more nervous. Giving the players an NPC combatant to help them? Too radical! We can't do that! Account-wide dyes? Too radical! Let's make them per-character. An intelligent beast race? That'll lose us sales, let's make our little race into WoW gnome/goblin rip-offs with an aesthetic stole from Phantasy Star Online. That'll shift units!

Fast gameplay? They'll be unfamiliar with it, it'll be so alienating that it'll lose us sales! No, make movement speed in combat as slow as treacle, make it so slow that reflexes just don't matter. Make it so that numbers are more relevant than reflexes. And let's make more money off this! Money is more important than fulfilling promises or being innovative, so let's add a tax to everything, even taxes for dying or travelling, so that you have to buy gold if you want to be able to play casually. That'd be great for us!

Us fans will deal with these changes, right? We'll be fine. We'll put up with everything. And it just kept moving further and further. So the end result was a game that was a few steps away from WoW, but... it was WoW. The charr are too close to orcs for my tastes, the asura are gnome/goblins, the sylvari are night elves (their city is even dark), and so on, and so on. And don't even try to tell me that they're different. I've played this game and absorbed the lore. They tried to make them as close to WoW as they could without infringing copyrights.

And the slow gameplay, I... see, I play Mass Effect 3 and I'm fast. I'm fast. So the AI has to actually be fast and tactical to deal with me. It has to rely on strategy, like using smokebombs at choke points, like properly taking cover, responding to suppressing fire, doing armored escorts of valuable units, having mobs that help each other out, like having grunts that run into your line of fire to prevent you from taking out that sniper. And having that sniper keep her range, having her finding perches for tactical shots. Things like that.

But in Guild Wars 2, I'm one-shotted because of numbers. I win or lose because of numbers. That's WoW. So...

WHERE ARE THE PARADIGM SHIFTS?

This is the realisation that broke me. The thing is is that events are so copy-pasted that they feel like quests, you even have 0/14 stuff to deal with. Combat is so, so slow moving and lethargic that dodging isn't even necessary. In fact, you can play better without dodging. Now, if you've played a game like Mass Effect 3, you realise how incredibly important dodging is. If an atlas has shot a rocket at you, you want to dodge, because you're being flanked by smart AI who'll be ready to take advantage of your reduced health.

In GW2, you just step out of the way. The only way that GW2 kills you is with attacks you can't avoid, and the latest dungeon has one of those as we all bloody well know. And if you have enough numbers, you don't even need to step out of red circles, you can just stand there and spam your abilities. NUMBERS. NUMBERS. NUMBERS. Great for number-fetishists who want actuary-porn, but where's the bloody fun?! The proposed combat paradigm shift was supposed to take the focus away from actuary-porn!!!!

AND YET IT DID NOT.

This game is painfully close to WoW. I play it and... I ask myself, why isn't it fun? Champions ONline is fun. Mass Effect 3 is fun. Why isn't GW2 fun? It's because in Champions Online, there's more than numbers involved in the combat. Whether you're great or whether you suck in CO depends on how much you can think on your feet. In GW2, it's nothing more than whether my numbers are better than the numbers of my foes. And ArenaNet agrees! Hey guys, have armour with better numbers so you can feel more powerful! Because GW2 is a game of numbers.

For most of 2012 I've had a creeping fear that culminated just around the time of ascended gear. And I'm tired with delusional people who think that this game has changed anything. It hasn't. The game we were promised was one of paradigm shifts and change. What we got was woW 2.0. Pick your orc, your gnome/goblin, your elf, or whatever, then get out there and swing your sword at things! Swing your sword again! That's great! But that's not what I want. And we should have more self-respect than to delude ourselves into thinking that this game changed anything.

Champions Online changed shit by giving us travel powers at level 5. At level 5 you can fly around, and that completely changes the dynamic of combat! Combat was never the same. So where's the paradigm shift in GW2 that even rivals that? There isn't one. It's just basically a rehash of WoW. This game has been changing, bit by bit, into a WoW rehash. And like I said - the element that even made me interested in the first place, the charr, are a massive disappointment.

Even their constructions, made of plates of metal bolted over plates of metal, are reminiscent of WoW orcs, and orks from Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. The asura are just gnome/goblins with aesthetics from Phantasy Star Online. And the combat is just current day WoW with dodging (dodging that's completely useless anyway). And... where's the change? Where are teh grand revelations? Even the little things. They could have chosen to not tax us in regards to death, crafting, travelling, and so on. But they did.

So where is the grand revelation? What makes GW2 so different than WoW?

Where is it?

What is it?

I saw what it might have been, back in 2011. But since 2012 I've had increasing fears. And playing the game. It's just a humongous disappointment. It signifies nothing. And it's best forgotten. I just feel sorry for the poor buggers who're still deluding themselves.

[Mustache Mayhem]

think the main difference in gw1 and gw2 is flexibility.. like I knew every skill in gw1 pretty much by heart (I know pathetic lol)

and I could form builds with that knowledge to use on content I wanted to solo (this was before heros even).. I was doing solo's very few did the first few years the game was out.. in gw2 it's way more rigid in that there's very few options to be effective in situations.. and changing traits on the fly is something they took out of the game by putting a price on it..

they tried early on in gw1 to limit the amount of times you could change a build, but really it was always free to do.. the guys on pvx wiki were posting total garbage builds for the luf*us.. and that was the only thing they could use because let's face it.. their iq wasn't really high enough to think of anything else.. gw2 does have a LOT of content though.. what it lacks in gameplay- it certainly doesn't have lack on pve content to explore

this whole thing with ascended.. I just see it as more content to be honest.. I really liked the clocktower during holloween and the jump puzzles- wish they would put in more content like that.. this is a game to get those luf*us who couldn't handle gw1 and it worked.. just keeping them around they need those carrots (and a lot of hand cream)

[Dasviidonja]

Quote

What this means, now?

- No power plateau. Your new 'power plateau' is called power creep, expect endlessly moving goalposts.
- Horizontal progression has gone the way of the dodo, every upgrade is outright better rather than different.
- The focus will be on making the game more challenging based upon equipment numbers rather than skill.
- Due to the above, you'll never get to feel good because of skills, because your numbers will end up worth 90% of your success.

This ^ is WONDERFUL NEWS! I'm so glad to read that GW2 is going to turn into a F2P WOW clone as that is what I wanted all along and why I had QUIT PLAYING several weeks ago. It was just sooooooooooooooo boring just playing for skills purpose but now with a PROGRESSION GOAL I can ENJOY playing it again. I never really cared about being better skilled than someone (even though I always was) but, I always cared about BEING BETTER EQUIPED than someone else. Now I can have the POWER and the SKILLS. Hurray for ANET and them finally seeing the light of what players actually wanted.  A FREE TO PLAY WOW CLONE.

[ToySoldier]

Hector, on 21 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

So in conclusion, this move was so out of nowhere that it forced most of Anets most loyal customers to open their eyes. Turns out that wasn't a good thing.

It opened my eyes to why my friends told me to play console games.  In MMORPGs there are always factions of players, and our game time is always indirectly impacted as a result of other players.  My friends are right.  In console we can choose a game that we know we like, and not having to worry about another segment of the players impacting our enjoyment.  I play mmorpg to see other people though.  It always makes me happy to see other people in a PvE world where we help each other.

DuskWolf, on 22 November 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

Fast gameplay? They'll be unfamiliar with it, it'll be so alienating that it'll lose us sales!

DuskWolf: You wrote a great post and I can totally see where you're coming from when you wanted something like ME3 here.  I generally agree with every post you write, but bear with me here for differing.

My only reason in playing mmorgp is I'm not good at jumping, movement.  I watched one of my friends zip through Batman hard mode in one evening then he became nationally ranked on the challenge thing.  I had fun watching him.  But I  thought mmorpg was made for unskilled people like me.  I'm pretty good at keyboard when I can formulate a strategy.  I liked boxing 7 toons in Everquest for that reason.  I could formulate a strategy and lock down 8 adds, etc, with split timing, but did not need to jump.

I do notice GW2 is attempting to make a console like game play in jumping puzzles etc.

When I went to Mad King Ascension, I found the combat too easy.  No strategy involved, yet after we won, I had a hard time jumping to the chest.    to show I'm not complaining or bitching here.  Took me, believe it or not, 6 hours after the group left, with lots of running back from starting waypoint.  Thank god one of them did not disband, but simply logged off, so I was able to stay in the instance 6 hours to make it to the chest.  I tried to face the challenge to the point I beat it.  But a part of was never interested in it anyway.  So it's easy to just skip FoTM for me.

While many players on the forum say they hate PvE.  Open world PvE is where I am very happy at.  My handicapped friend too.  He's forever making new alts--that's his interest in PvE.  So you see, even when you and I agree on many other things, on this we do each have our own preference.

I don't wish to step on your playground.  I can easily skip FoTM, and all events involving jumping/dodging.  (I do some amount of dodging, and am having fun. But other times I still can't spot the animation tip fast enough.

Combat in GW2 is ok, being I did have fun planning my build, armor stat focus, weapon choice.  I'm sticking with mace and focus for my guardian because I enjoy killing mobs over time, watching their hp dwindle a bit at a time, rather than their sudden deaths. The proces of watching monsters die slowly actually relive me from the tension during my work where I have to go at a frantic pace.  My gf hates the sound effects from greatsword.  I mostly play to watch people in dynamic events.  See? Dorks like me are also part of this mmorpg population, with requirement from my gf on my noise.  

One thing I don't understand, and it has nothing to do with you.  Players who want achievement for their skill.  Why don't they just play console games where they can rank high based on their skill.  Or are they here to be top of the heap in mmorpg for the economy aspect?  It seems GW2 tried to address that with cosmetic armor, but it did not really work.  I guess there is a segment of players that crave for bigger numbers.  I did read a very well written post by such a player.  His joy are numbers.  It was also why some MMORPGs have gear ranking boards.

Oh boy.. strategic console games time?  I've been playing Fishdom lately. It's fun strategy when I scan over the game board and quickly tap the strategic moves.  I guess we all have different styles.     I like strategy where you plan multiple steps ahead, involving many potential factors, and doing a mental calculation quickly on what is the best bet for the time being.  My guardian is built to do that, and I had great fun planning it.  When we wen to Lost Shore, a guy commented my hp never even went down.   Actually it did but I healed/regened fast.  I did not need to dodge at all.

But I do agree, atm GW2 looks like a WoW clone on the way. I still prefer GW2 for the better scenery.

Tyrian assembly may be vociferous, but it's fun for me to see multiple views.

Edited by ToySoldier, 22 November 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[RedStar]

DuskWolf, on 22 November 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

In GW2, you just step out of the way. The only way that GW2 kills you is with attacks you can't avoid, and the latest dungeon has one of those as we all bloody well know.

Are you thinking about the Jade Maw ? Because it can be avoided, or we keep facing a bug over and over again.

[Tenicord]

I've thought GW2 was a major letdown. I only cling on to it because I had such high hopes. The new gear level is a great thing imo. Did they go against what they set out to do? Yes.. but I think that's good because it was not as good an MMO as it may have seemed originally . so hopefully they change gears and start keeping people interested in playing this game instead of only interested in doing the monthly events.. then disappearing until the next month.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Yup I should just stick with the movies.  Orr wasn't all that relaxing either.

The wind effect is only a problem when you are not aware of it.  Someone in my party suddenly got pushed off and died and said "WTF!"  Once I am aware of it, it is not a problem waiting for the right timing.  But if ArenaNet posted a warning to beware of the wind, that first death could have been avoided.

It is not challenging, it is a sneaky 1-hit kill on the side.  I don't find sneaky 1-hit kills challenging.  A feature that this game is full of.  It is just a stupid unfair way to rake up repair cost as the rest of the party who didn't fall would not be able to res you (bug?) and have to fight without you.  The only way to avoid that is to have everyone jump to their death and retry.  Yes, stupid, I know.

So what you want is to simply not have to think for yourself?
Because that is exactly what would happen if they posted warnings about every single thing in every single dungeon.
A smart player does understand rather  quick (without deaths) that you should avoid blowing winds on a ramp.

[Zippor]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Yup I should just stick with the movies.  Orr wasn't all that relaxing either.

The wind effect is only a problem when you are not aware of it.  Someone in my party suddenly got pushed off and died and said "WTF!"  Once I am aware of it, it is not a problem waiting for the right timing.  But if ArenaNet posted a warning to beware of the wind, that first death could have been avoided.

It is not challenging, it is a sneaky 1-hit kill on the side.  I don't find sneaky 1-hit kills challenging.  A feature that this game is full of.  It is just a stupid unfair way to rake up repair cost as the rest of the party who didn't fall would not be able to res you (bug?) and have to fight without you.  The only way to avoid that is to have everyone jump to their death and retry.  Yes, stupid, I know.

Orr has nothing to do with this. If you or someone in your party gets blown off, somebody wasn't paying attention. The push-off mechanic was already very far away from the first step to the platform after the room that already had couple of traps. Just because your group can't advance in a pace that lets you notice these things while being cautious, doesn't warrant any goddamn warning signs. The dungeon was advertised as being challenging by Arenanet, not by me. But judging from your posts, you and your group had some 'challenge' advancing in there. You're welcome to ignore the words meaning even more to make your point in the future.

Edited by Zippor, 22 November 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[farkov47]

Usage of Sound would be great.
I've come across a few voice/sound cues that games incorporated to hint players at impending danger.
But more would be nice...
Heavy footsteps of stealthed warrior...
Footsteps by stealthing thief when they get close.
Loud whooshing sound of wind?

Sorry if these are asking too much, I thought GW2 was meant to change how MMOs are played.

[Daesu]

Zippor, on 22 November 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Orr has nothing to do with this. If you or someone in your party gets blown off, somebody wasn't paying attention. The push-off mechanic was already very far away from the first step to the platform after the room that already had couple of traps. Just because your group can't advance in a pace that lets you notice these things while being cautios, doesn't warrant any goddamn warning signs. The dungeon was advertised as being challenging by Arenanet, not by me. But judging from your posts, you and your group had some 'challenge' advancing in there. You're welcome to ignore the words meaning even more to make your point in the future.

Just because it is far away from the first step to the platform doesn't imply that it is not sneaky.  

Oh don't worry, we got through that challenge aright, but by jumping down and suicide so we can retry because a bug prevented us from resing the guy who was blown off.  Rather than face the mobs with less than the full number of our team members and be at a disadvantage, we had to use this workaround for that bug.

So this dungeon has to depend on a bug and hope that everyone in the team is new to it, so it can surprise them with the wind, to be challenging?  Even with that, it is not especially challenging if you know the workaround.  The fact that it is unfairly buggy doesn't necessarily imply that it must be challenging or fun.

Someone from our group wanted to leave after clearing the challenge.  My wife didn't particularly enjoy it, and I didn't like it either, so we left and we never went back.

Edited by Daesu, 22 November 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Passive Aggressive]

OP talks about people being entitled but sometimes there are legitimate gripes. I think if the ascended gear was included and this event had been amazingly fun and had gone off smoothly without tons of lag and a poorly executed one time event then people might have cut ANet a little slack.

But to include a new tier of gear AND have the event be a total disaster was just too much.  Even fanboys have a breaking point.

I've seen a lot of flaws from the very beginning but I still have some fun when I need something mindless to do.  But this is not the game I was excited about the past few years and with each new bit of bad news I lose interest. Even when I do log on I get burnt out quicker and quicker.  I'm visiting my family for the holidays so can't play for two weeks and I feel like when I get back home I am not even sure if I will care about logging in.

I guess if they pull off a Christmas event that has some fun stuff the way Halloween did it might get me interested again and some others may come around too.  But it probably won't last.

[Zippor]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Just because it is far away from the first step to the platform doesn't imply that it is not sneaky.  

Oh don't worry, we got through that challenge aright, but by jumping down and suicide so we can retry because a bug prevented us from resing the guy who was blown off.  Rather than face the mobs with less than the full number of our team members and be at a disadvantage, we had to use this workaround for that bug.

So this dungeon has to depend on a bug and hope that everyone in the team is new to it, so it can surprise them with the wind, to be challenging.  Even with that, it is not especially challenging if you know the workaround.  The fact that it is unfairly buggy doesn't necessarily imply that it must be challenging or fun.

And I never implied that, bugs are awful and detrimental to gameplay. The dungeon doesn't rely on them though. Again, it was only your groups observation and experience that made you think like that. My group didn't come against anything like that, but we did come against another very annoying bug in a boss encounter, we can still understand though that the encounter isn't supposed to work like that. And I'm pretty sure you can catch off sneaky attempts by being careful and cautious.

Edited by Zippor, 22 November 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Daesu]

Zippor, on 22 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

And I never implied that, bugs are awful and detrimental to gameplay. The dungeon doesn't rely on them though. Again, it was only your groups observation and experience that made you think like that. My group didn't come against anything like that, but we did come against another very annoying bug in a boss encounter, we can still understand though that the encounter isn't supposed to work like that. And I'm pretty sure you can catch off sneaky attempts by being careful and cautious.

Even when 1 guy was blown down, the rest of us immediately caught on to it and didn't have a problem climbing up even with the wind.  So I don't see the wind as being a big challenge.  The worse is the bug that prevented us from ressing him so we had to suicide fall just to workaround this bug, which was a waste of our time so the dungeon was just annoying.  I find my solo experiences clearing all 3 areas in Orr without any exotics to be a lot more challenging than this.

Lordkrall, on 22 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

A smart player does understand rather  quick (without deaths) that you should avoid blowing winds on a ramp.

Is that real life or virtual?  Because I have crossed a sea cliff by walking across 2 ropes, unhook my carabina in the middle just to jump down into the sea in real life.  The wind was blowing at me all that time but I didn't fall off.  

Seriously, do you want the character name of the guy that fell off in my party so you can insult him?

Edited by Daesu, 22 November 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[Zippor]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

So I don't see the wind as being a big challenge.

So it is a challenge, just not a big one.