233 replies to this topic

[Daesu]

Zippor, on 22 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

So it is a challenge, just not a big one.

It is a challenge in patience, could have moved up the ramp a lot faster without it.  

[Wordsworth]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Everything else worth complaining about has already been here from the start. The RNG factor (final karka event), the gem shop unfairness, the poor customer service, the lagging, the lack of content, etc.

Ascended Tier wasn't. And fact of the matter is... things got worse.

The final event was a mess, performance wise. It was scheduled stupidly and to top it off, the loot table was much, much better than anything before it. Of course people are going to cry foul. Half the players missed it and half the players who were there got kicked.

The gem shop? Beforehand ANet at least had the decency to allow you to unlock event items from BLC's and their keys. Consortium chests HAD to be bought.

[Lordkrall]

Wordsworth, on 22 November 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Ascended Tier wasn't. And fact of the matter is... things got worse.

The final event was a mess, performance wise. It was scheduled stupidly and to top it off, the loot table was much, much better than anything before it. Of course people are going to cry foul. Half the players missed it and half the players who were there got kicked.

The gem shop? Beforehand ANet at least had the decency to allow you to unlock event items from BLC's and their keys. Consortium chests HAD to be bought.

No it didn't.

[Zippor]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

It is a challenge in patience, could have moved up the ramp a lot faster without it.  

Which is just one of the meanings of the word. A challenge is something that instigates you to do something that you would not otherwise do. In the dungeon the traps challenge you to be cautious, patient and to stand around, in this sense, the dungeon has succeeded in being partly 'challenging'.

[Grumpdogg]

DuskWolf, on 22 November 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

<good stuff was here>

You forgot to mention the story. We were promised such a great story. Then Traherne showed up...

[Daesu]

Zippor, on 22 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Which is just one of the meanings of the word. A challenge is something that instigates you to do something that you would not otherwise do. In the dungeon the traps challenge you to be cautious, patient and to stand around, in this sense, the dungeon has succeeded in being partly 'challenging'.

While at the same time, its bugginess and sneakiness overshadows it with greater annoyance.

[Zippor]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

While at the same time, its bugginess and sneakiness overshadows it with greater annoyance.

I can agree to a certain point with that.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

While at the same time, its bugginess and sneakiness overshadows it with greater annoyance.

And you know that it was a bug and not just a feature?
It would be quite logical to make it impossible to rez downed people in certain places of the dungeons after all.

[Wordsworth]

Daesu, on 22 November 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

It is a challenge in patience, could have moved up the ramp a lot faster without it.  

In other words, tedious. But the game relies on that and masks it as challenge. Still, faster to walk up a windy ramp than it is to take down a 10 billion health, no-effort boss.

[Zippor]

Wordsworth, on 22 November 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

In other words, tedious. But the game relies on that and masks it as challenge. Still, faster to walk up a windy ramp than it is to take down a 10 billion health, no-effort boss.

So the 'from the roof swinging axes' trap, which is pretty much a classic, is tedious? The traps in that particular giant fractal are just that, only they're represented differently. Could you suggest a rather less tedious trap mechanism?

Edited by Zippor, 22 November 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 22 November 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

And you know that it was a bug and not just a feature?
It would be quite logical to make it impossible to rez downed people in certain places of the dungeons after all.

Nope I am not sure that it was a bug and not just a feature.  But if that was a feature, then it is feature that can be easily worked-around of.  

[oppagundamstyle]

LFk, on 21 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

The problem is you.

For this, I went and signed up for an account! You are 120% right!

This is my first non-asian-based game, so I don't know Anet well enough to be fanboy. But I have played lineage 2, so i know how much I hate Nexon. The following is solely from an objective, yet personal point of view.

The problem is the community. I have been reading posts at work from this forum for months now and its surprising how complaints have changed and diversified over time. If I was a dev at Anet, I'd get so annoyed and probably press alt+ctrl+del or something.

For example, the precursor and legendary issues. When the forge rate was increased, the same people started a whole new area of complaint expertise about the rise of T6 mats because of the bot ban (one even said he would like to see bots back), not forgetting to return to the original complaints to additionally incorporate new complainions (complaints+opinions) onto the original drop rate issue by saying that they have tested it and Anet is lying about the adjusted increase. Its never going to end.

So, instead of waiting for Anet to adapt to the trillion complaints in quadrillion aspects it receives daily, why don't the complainers just try to adapt to how the game has changed. We are human and do have an innate adaptive abilities, don't we? I'm sure the most or all the worries from the community have been, are being, or will be considered or indirectly implemented by Anet. The main issue at hand, IMO, is how to satisfy the most complainer groups with one patch.

I, for one, probably am in the "satisfied complainer group." I have been stuck forever with the same set of gear for quite a while now, and faster way to acquire new shinies (ascended) for my 80 toon actually sounds better then modified old ones (new skins)! To me, its just a novel item in the game to look forward to, I don't see it's place in the gear treadmill.  What part of the game requires you to must have ascended gear to complete?

The people who are complaining about the lengendaries, IMO are the people that can't figure out a way to acquire them quickly besides grinding. At the moment, i'm getting 5 clovers, 10 oris, 2 lodestones per week, with 2 hours or less of game play a day! No grind, just dungeons or events I feel like on that day, and I still feel like I'm getting closer to my twilight. Although it won't be very soon. Alternatively, Anet devises a way not to make lengendaries easier to get, but at the same time not let people feel like they're not progressing, and people start complaining about them being not trustworthy on their word? I look at it in another perspective, and I call it, being proficient. Think about it, with one patch, Anet has satisfied numerous customer groups. Yes, it may have caused numerous other customer groups to get pissed off, but that takes us back to my theory that humans have innate abilities to adapt. And in the end, it really is the communities fault for being so pessimistic.

Then, complainers compare grinding in GW2 with WoW. But, wait, where in WoW do you need to grind to get higher tier gear? In dungeons? That's not grinding, that's having fun with 5~10 of your friends while sipping a Heineken, swearing to each other over Skype, and watching porn on the top right hand corner of the screen. Or am I not getting the point of online games? Last month, a third of my guildies left because they thought there was nothing to do in game after 80 besides WvW, dancing in high places in Lions Arch, and the long slow process of lengendaries. Most of them have returned because they were blown away by the revolutionary new way of dungeoning, not to mention easier-to-obtain gear that some people blows off their underwear about on even hearing the A word. I don't get it. Would their be so much noise with a new ranged of improved, Swiss-made range of 80 rares that needed 1000 karka shells to make? Not from me! I wouldn't be playing anymore because there was no end-game and no feeling of progress!

[Snapalope]

Reikou, on 20 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

3 weeks ago anet didn't completely abandon the game that they set out to make with the manifesto.

Ya and fanboys still defend them which is the sad part.  Also Ranka should have won.

[Zippor]

oppagundamstyle, on 22 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Why don't the complainers just try to adapt to how the game has changed. We are human and do have an innate adaptive abilities, don't we?

To their own words, they were promised something and as such they should be getting just that and nothing else or anything that diversifies from that promise. The game should be exactly as they were promised and anything that differs from what they think the developers promised, is in no way justifiable.

Edited by Zippor, 22 November 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[DuskWolf]

@oppagundamstyle

Your post, translated: We, as consumers, should never complain about anything, ever. Any faults made by a product provider are our own fault. If I buy a car and then the car breaks down due to a manufacturing error, that's my fault. If I buy a TV and it was flagrantly falsely advertised, that's my fault. If I buy a type of food and it contained poisonous chemicals, that's my fault. As a human being, I realise that we can adapt to these things. We should go with the flow and let capitalism run wild, unchecked. If we encounter poor products or false advertising, these things are our fault. We should shut up and learn to adapt to poor products and false advertising.

Some consumers are their own worst enemy. How can it be believed that we have any self respect, when some of us clearly don't? ArenaNet are likely raking it in and laughing it up due to the poor, gullible people who actually believe stuff like this. Good job, guys. You're dragging the quality expected of the industry down with you.

Maybe there really is one born every minute. In which case, I have a bridge to sell you, hardly used...

Edited by DuskWolf, 22 November 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[DuskWolf]

You know, thinking back over my history of posting. I can clearly see the five stages of grief.

Denial: I believed that everything I'd heard could somehow not impact the great game this was supposed to be. All of the bad things that were mounting up, like the per character dyes, the grind, the fact that the game wasn't very fun, could somehow all fix itself by launch.

Anger: Once I got past this stage, I quickly got fed up of how sterile the game was. It has no ecology to speak of, the NPCs have no schedules, the world feels dead, the combat is as slow as treacle, the AI is as thick as a brick, everything we do is taxed, and the game is deisgned cynically to encourage the purchase of gems.

Bargaining: I tried to convince the fanboys that this could be a great game. Speed up the combat and movement speed a bit, improve the AI, redesign some areas. It might be great! It could be. Maybe? But no, it became clear that these aren't things that would happen. There are too many gullbile people ready to fall for operant conditioning and skinnerbox models. I feel bad for them.

Depression: I felt like shit. I couldn't even be hyped about the charr any more. The game just felt completely dead to me. And playing it was a sterile, empty, shallow experience. I'd log in and hey, I'd swing my sword, I'd swing my sword again. There was no hope in sight. But worst was that I could see the lost potential of this game and it genuinely brought me down. How great the lore, the races, and the gameplay could have been.

Acceptance: I've since uninstalled GW2 and moved on. I'm playing ME3's multiplayer now and having a blast. The reason I'm still arguing here is that I want to bring people to their senses. I want to give people a sense of self-respect, that they should demand better. That if they're promised paradigm shifts, then they should bloody well get them. To make them and me view future incidents with a deservedly much more cynical eye, regardless of reputation.

Now I'm just waiting for the rest of the community to catch up with me at stage five.

Edited by DuskWolf, 22 November 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[ToySoldier]

oppagundamstyle, on 22 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

What part of the game requires you to must have ascended gear to complete?

End game.
Source: https://www.guildwar...-ascended-gear/

"The future of items progression:
This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.
As we release more new end game content in the future, you’ll see more Infusions and Ascended item types being added to the game.  Eventually, you’ll be able to kit yourself out with a full set of Ascended gear and high end Infusions to help give you the edge in end game content."

If you read what Agony is, this will be required gear by end game.  Unless you want to go through the pain of agony.

I'll save you trouble and include the part about Agony in this official announcement: (bold is mine)
"New Condition: Agony
In the upcoming Fractals of the Mists dungeon, we’ll introduce a new monster condition called Agony.
This extremely dangerous condition ticks percentages of player health away and can’t be cleansed by normal means. Players who wish to delve deep into the Fractals will find that Agony makes progress increasingly difficult, until they reach the point where some defense against this condition is a must. The only way to mitigate Agony damage is by building up resistance through Infusions, a new type of upgrade component that can be acquired in the Mystic Forge."

Edited by ToySoldier, 22 November 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[Lordkrall]

ToySoldier, on 22 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

End game.
Source: https://www.guildwar...-ascended-gear/

"The future of items progression:
This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.
As we release more new end game content in the future, you’ll see more Infusions and Ascended item types being added to the game.  Eventually, you’ll be able to kit yourself out with a full set of Ascended gear and high end Infusions to help give you the edge in end game content."

If you read what Agony is, this will be required gear by end game.  Unless you want to go through the pain of agony.

"help give you the edge in end game content" != will be required for all end-game content ever released.

As of now (and that is really the only thing we should talk about until we KNOW about the future content) it is not needed to "complete" anything.
Seeing as FotM is unlimited there is no completing it. You can however see every single part of the new dungeon without ever getting to the levels that requires infusion.

[DuskWolf]

Lordkrall, on 22 November 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

"help give you the edge in end game content" != will be required for all end-game content ever released.

How can you quote something and so utterly miss the point?

If you won't need it for the end-game, then why is it even there in the first place? Why will the next tier be there? Or the next one? Will they not be needed for end-game, either?

Clearly, you're still in the denial phase.

[Midnight_Tea]

Why is the Tyrian Assembly filled with complaints and drama? To be honest, I still seriously suspect astroturfing. I know that may cause a lot of people to roll their eyes or call me a conspiracy nut. Except that it does happen. Big companies who feel threatened by  a relatively small but fierce competitor will definitely have it in their budget to try and drown out word-of-mouth with noise.

This isn't to say that the complaints about the game aren't true. I'm not saying that they don't have a point, I've even joined in at times (like that damn mad king's tower). I've been to different forums, and complaining and criticism is definitely a very common sight. But it feels different here. The complaints seem to come in smooth, predictable waves. A lot of the complaints are very well-written, which by itself is odd. I don't mean to sound too condescending, but communities I've been to where complaining is a regular activity... well, the general literacy level is hit and miss to put it charitably. Even the hyperbole sounds too consistently creative.

Finally, some of the people doing the complaining (who again, have consistently strong writing ability) seem to really go out of their way to fine-tune theiir words for maximum impact. They won't just clumsily throw the word "fanboy" around. They'll say things like, I dunno, "why don't you just keep giving away your parent's money to your favorite cash cow" ? I'm not actually quoting anyone with that but that's the sort of thing I mean. Consistently high-quality meanspiritedness.

Finally, I'm not trying to dismiss genuine criticism of the game. It really really needs it right now. I said it already but the people complaining have good points. Nor do I think it's valid to accuse anyone whom you don't see eye to eye with as astroturfing for a corporate interest. But I do think it's important to be well-aware that ArenaNet has much wealthier rivals, and that it's a no-brainer investment for them to try and shut down the upstart before it can threaten them. To that end, trying to poison the discourse on their rival's most trafficked fansite is relatively cheap for the impact it could have.


All I'm asking is that people be aware. If someone starts overtly flaming or attacking you disproportionately for responding, don't engage with them. Just quietly report their post and hope others do the same.

[Athletic]

Doubt people that actually enjoy the game want to waste any more time in this shitstorm of a forum.

[Evans]

How interesting Midnight_Tea I've never thought of this before.

It really doesn't matter. Though there is an abundance of negative criticism on Guild Wars 2, I still enjoy the game massively. Since I just levelled my second character to lv80 (which took me several weeks, to the point it was taking far too long for me) and I am too poor to dress her in even rares, I started to look at the max level gear and I noticed that wearing Masterwork, which costs maybe 10 silver for a full set, really doesn't make you worse than another player.

The stat increases aren't such a big deal to me and I genuinely believe there is way too much commotion on this. I'm doing just fine with my Masterworks in Fractals, while I see others with Exotic dungeon armor go down all the time. On top of that I'm getting replacement gear as I play. It's really not such a big deal as it is made out to be.

Saying you can get everything you wanted in a matter of hours in GW1 is rubbish. When I started out Prophesies I wasted SO much time trying to get those drops I needed to exchange for armor or weapons (since putting links to collectors is so hot). They were scattered all over the place and they were worse than the ones you could buy for coin.

Another thing, coin was NOT easy to get in GW1. I did not enjoy spamming the chat for hours to sell a silly drop I got. How did I even know how much it was worth? I didn't get a Superior Vigor for a couple of years. It took me quite a while to get most maxed weapons. Even now some upgrades for weapons still cost quite a bit.

I don't feel entitled to everything there is yet, and I have the patience to work towards it. In the meantime I don't really feel subpar.

[RedStar]

DuskWolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Acceptance: I've since uninstalled GW2 and moved on. I'm playing ME3's multiplayer now and having a blast. The reason I'm still arguing here is that I want to bring people to their senses. I want to give people a sense of self-respect, that they should demand better. That if they're promised paradigm shifts, then they should bloody well get them. To make them and me view future incidents with a deservedly much more cynical eye, regardless of reputation.

Now I'm just waiting for the rest of the community to catch up with me at stage five.

Wow...aren't you full of yourself ? It's funny and sad at the same time that you act so high and mighty by saying that we are still in denial and that you are the only one who moved on to "acceptance".
Yet, you post daily on these forums. And not small posts. You posts well thought out and well written walls of text.
That's not acceptance...that's bitterness : you are bitter that some players still enjoy this game, no matter how mediocre you think it is, while you felt betrayed by it...

Of course, then you are going to say that I'm in self-denial...fine, but tell me, oh mighty psychologist, what am I denying ?

DuskWolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

How can you quote something and so utterly miss the point?

If you won't need it for the end-game, then why is it even there in the first place? Why will the next tier be there? Or the next one? Will they not be needed for end-game, either?

Clearly, you're still in the denial phase.

So what you are saying is that PvE tittles and PvE skills were required in GW1 ? Because why else would those things be there in the first place right ?

[Glider]

Midnight_Tea, on 22 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Why is the Tyrian Assembly filled with complaints and drama? To be honest, I still seriously suspect astroturfing. I know that may cause a lot of people to roll their eyes or call me a conspiracy nut. Except that it does happen. Big companies who feel threatened by  a relatively small but fierce competitor will definitely have it in their budget to try and drown out word-of-mouth with noise.
...

Where did you get all this "fine-tune theiir words for maximum impact" stuff? I'm kinda curious since I want to be able to measure word impact and fine-tuning as well

On a more serious note. Think about this: all serious competitors on MMO market are grind and treadmill kind of games. GW was supposed to be different. Those complaining on forums are opposing grind and gear treadmill and want GW to be unique. You seriously think they're trying to get people play some other typical MMO? Doesn't sound plausable at all.

PS It was pretty hard to refrain "you're just on the 1st stage of grief" jokes

[ToySoldier]

Athletic, on 22 November 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Doubt people that actually enjoy the game want to waste any more time in this shitstorm of a forum.

Very true.  This brings up question in my mind on why some of the people who profess they are happy.  Why aren't these happy people playing the game?  Instead, they are sitting on this forum all day it seems.  With that in mind, I'm no longer going to post here much, and risking getting personal attacks.

lol.  I was having fun playing the game until Ascended gear was announced.   Now Duskwolf made me realize I'm still in the denial stage.  I keep forgetting the end game.  Oh well.

I'd gone back to Everquest after leaving it multiple times in the past, ditto WoW, lol, Aion, Lotro, you name it.  Eventually though they all died for me when I finally went to admission stage.

We'll see how long this lasts with GW2.  Denial, re-try, denial, re-try?  Or will the game improve after a bit?  In the end no matter how people talk about astroturfing, the players will each make their own choices.  A good game will earn support.  None of us is going to pay for a game we do not enjoy.  

[RedStar]

ToySoldier, on 22 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Very true. This brings up question in my mind on why some of the people who profess they are happy.  Why aren't these happy people playing the game?  Instead, they are sitting on this forum all day it seems.  With that in mind, I'm no longer going to post here much, and risking getting personal attacks.

Not every free time is a time where you can play the game. Posting on a forum doesn't require as much time and attention as playing a game. It can even be done while playing the game.

[ToySoldier]

RedStar, on 22 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Not every free time is a time where you can play the game. Posting on a forum doesn't require as much time and attention as playing a game. It can even be done while playing the game.

Wasn't talking about you.  I said "some".  Won't name them of course.

[Arquenya]

bdatty, on 20 November 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

The most noticeable game changing, ink on paper, was the rarity increase. Like Sauron's eye starring at you. Adding ascended gear is a great way to motivate people for future content ahead, and a nice way to solve a bit of the 'there is no content' group, but at the same time if they're going to do this, they should add a crap load of skins to weapon/armor to compensate for people who are just in it for the look while pleasing the other group. You know, hand and hand.

Well GW didn't have 2 extra tiers of gear after you finished 2/3rds of the content and yet people kept playing for 5 years with just better looks as an incentive, gear-wise.
I don't see any "motivational" aspects in adding two gear tiers (ascended and updated Legendaries, which used to have exotic stats). New endgame content - if the content is good, fun and enjoyable, people don't care about "better stats" as reward.

Next to that, after all the things that they said (and what was part of the reason people bought the game) and didn't do, or even did the opposite of, it's become hard to believe anything at all that ANet communicates. It's basically just "wait and see" and "hope and pray".
Not really a nice position to be in, as a customer.

Athletic, on 22 November 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Doubt people that actually enjoy the game want to waste any more time in this shitstorm of a forum.

That's just your opinion. I think it's a decent forum and I like to read people's opinions - and often see I'm not the only one thinking about stuff in a certain way.

I hardly post from home, but at work it's a nice distraction every now and then ..

sty0pa, on 22 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

IMO the game tried ambitiously to do too many things.  Trying to sit on many chairs, it seems that it sort of fell between all of them more or less.

Lol yes it's really too bad that our characters can't sit on chairs.
Dunno why but it's very immersive to have a RP way to take a rest in-game ... so many chairs standing around and then you have to lie on the ground? :s

Edited by Arquenya, 22 November 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Lordkrall]

ToySoldier, on 22 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Very true.  This brings up question in my mind on why some of the people who profess they are happy.  Why aren't these happy people playing the game?  Instead, they are sitting on this forum all day it seems.  With that in mind, I'm no longer going to post here much, and risking getting personal attacks.

Because it is quite possible to have access to a forum while at work, but playing the game isn't?

[sty0pa]

IMO the game tried ambitiously to do too many things.  Trying to sit on many chairs, it seems that it sort of fell between all of them more or less.

'Dynamic, instanced, character-driven story line'...well yes, there's one.  One.  Per.  Toon.
That's pretty dull.  Sure, you can make alts and different choices to see the different stories, but once you've done your personal storyline, you're done more or less.  So the end result is (in other game terms) you have a spectacular list of one (1) quest chain of substance.

'Karma quests replace quest hubs'... sort of.
The heart npcs still end up being quest hubs, with few players 'wandering' through the world looking for stuff to do, mostly they just drift from one heart to the next.  The 'karma' rewards system is clever, certainly, but still ends up being sort of underwhelming.  Yes, it saves you actually clicking a bunch of NPCs standing around with exclamation marks hovering oddly over their heads, but in a way this is almost disappointing.  Instead of talking to someone and (if you care to) getting their story, when you arrive in an area, suddenly you have what amount to 'chores' to do.  When you've done enough chores, you have the opportunity to buy some gear that's usually not as good as what you have, or, if you're pursuing an aesthetic (as Anet claimed was the only real "gear progression" in the game), most of the crap looks 90% like everything else.  In any case you have scant spare space to store any of the 'neat looking' stuff, being that bank space is shared: a seemingly-utilitarian idea, except the result over 5 toons is that you have 1/5 the bank space most other games allow!

'Dynamic Events' ... less exciting than they seemed at first.
They're pretty much just scripted events that take place over and over.  I have yet to find the "great chain of zone-spanning events" that was advertised pregame, and I have an 80, 60, 50, and two 30s.

'Dynamic Combat' ... I find combat far more interesting than any other MMO.  It's probably ruined me from most other 'just stand there and slug away' mmos.  

'Varied character creation' the skill selection is truly meh.  By lvl 25-30, you're getting "something new" about once every 10 lvls.  Once you've bought your way up the skill tree, you've probably only bought 60% of the skills available to your toon, and a bare minimum of the 10-30 point ones.  Traits are an interesting design with their 10-point changeable metaskills, but the utility is lacking because you can't save setups like "group" or "solo" for quick changing and most people don't really bother.


So I still like the game, but honestly it has played out much less whelming than I'd earlier supposed.