233 replies to this topic

[Larsen]

Something similar happened with Diablo 3, although a bit faster since the problems were even more obvious in that game. Forums were bubbly and cheerful and hating the haters up until a certain point where, seemingly from one week to the next, the tides turned. I don't remember if any particular thing set it off, but here it could very well be the disastrous Lost Shore event. It was also the first time a negative post wasn't immediately downvoted into oblivion on reddit's GW2 forum, a place that was long known as the ultimate fanboy circlejerk joke-community due to its voting system and their users' ability to censor anything they don't like to hear.

I don't think Ascended gear is the sole culprit. A lot of people didn't like it, but they'd live with it if the game was good. I think a lot of people have been kind of in denial, or have knowingly given the game chances despite having already seen the elephant in the room. It's like The Emperor's New Clothes and the child has finally shouted that the emperor is really naked, prompting more and more people to drop the illusion. Nobody could defend the Lost Shores event, and I think it triggered a kind of collective "screw it" wave. People who had been giving the game second, third, fourth and fifteenth chances were out of patience and tolerance.

GW2 has some good things, some excellent features and innovative systems, but it's a low-quality product. It feels like when you were a kid and someone gave you one of those cheap knock-off toys. You could tell that it resembled the expensive toys, it even had some cool features, but it still had that crummy cheap discount feeling with the bad, brittle plastic and the strange lightness that made you realize that there wasn't real quality in the product. I feel the same way with GW2 -- I praise some of its mechanics and underlying systems to this day, but the gameplay and content is just discount and feels like holding a $4.99 knock-off action figure.

[raspberry jam]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Everything else worth complaining about has already been here from the start.

Yes. And people have been bored from the start. They needed some rational reason to be upset about it, though. It's just how people work. It's no difference from how the people who actually do like the game, are often unable to even see how ANet lied at all.

[Helistin]

Reikou, on 20 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

3 weeks ago anet didn't completely abandon the game that they set out to make with the manifesto.

Yeah. Haven't seen that quick fall from grace in a long time. Anet and Guild Wars 2 hasn't really gotten much bad press or publicity before since their plan was different from 'The big' Mmo and while Guild Wars wasn't for everybody it was still respected since it took it own route and did some things differently.

Now it's just another gear grind mmo competing for some of the panda money. And trying to compete with the big one in it's own 'bread and butter' isn't going to end well.


Edit. Atleast the bad feedback has gotten the mod army activated with a vengeance on the official forums.

Edited by Helistin, 20 November 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Resolve]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

I wonder though...

Are the Ascended items enough of a reason to throw away everything you believed in? the stats aren't so much better compared to exotics FYI.

Everything else worth complaining about has already been here from the start. The RNG factor (final karka event), the gem shop unfairness, the poor customer service, the lagging, the lack of content, etc.

However, everytime that someone complained about any of that, it was immediately frowned upon and / or laughed at.

I think the stat increase was the final straw for quite a few people, myself included. Before that it wasn't a big deal to overlook the flaws because they could be fixed in time. Ascended gear shows Anet has completely turned their back on things they've stood behind right up until 3 months after release, and shows the direction the game is going to head in.

And then the weekend event turns out to be a disaster. It's 2 pretty big mistakes in a row and Anet need to make some moves to regain some faith.

[ScoutMATH]

Resolve, on 20 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Anet need to make some moves to regain some faith.

Stick to the manifesto. That will revive them.



"We founded Arena.net to innovate so Guild Wars 2 was our opportunity to question everything, to make a game that defies existing conventions." - Mike O-Brien, President

To paraphrase, "Virtually all MMO's are grindy, so we want GW2 to be different."

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Resolve]

I bet they regret doing that video so much.

[ScoutMATH]

Resolve, on 20 November 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

I bet they regret doing that video so much.

No, I bet they regret selling Arena.Net to Ncsoft. They shouldve sold it to Microsoft instead. at least they'll be at the same studio with Jeff Strain's undead labs.

[RedStar]

Resolve, on 20 November 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

I bet they regret doing that video so much.

I bet they don't really care...it's marketing. It used to make me laugh so much before when I saw people kissing everything Anet said, imagining a game that was so unrealistic gameplay wise, full of contradictions and that revolved entirely around what they liked to do...And then GW2 goes in Beta, they realize that it's nowhere near what they wanted. And how could it ? Even if they stuck to their manifesto or whatever they said, it wouldn't have came close to whatever some people were imagining (if you are bored, go into GW2 archives, you will find some marvelous gems).
And what's even more funnier, it's that most players that over-hyped the game have stopped playing, which in itself is quite normal. When you imagine something so deeply to almost develop feelings towards it (believe me, some posts were really creepy) and suddenly it doesn't it your craziest dreams, it's normal to be disappointed.
So they give up on the game and go play something else.

Edited by RedStar, 20 November 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[ScoutMATH]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I bet they don't really care...it's marketing.

Arena.NET's reputation for 7 years was solid until November 15, 2012.

so it's not marketing.

you might want to check http://guildwarsguru.com to check how GW1 went.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[RedStar]

Huh I thought my post was deleted...that's why it wasn't finished and I have no idea how I wanted to finish.

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Arena.NET's reputation for 7 years was solid until November 15, 2012.

so it's not marketing.

you might want to check http://guildwarsguru.com to check how GW1 went.

Solid ? I've already been over that.

RedStar, on 16 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

To be fair, I never understood people that have known Anet for 7 years and still think that they are an exceptionally great company. When I see GW1 "veterans" complaints about certain points about GW2 and say that everything was better in GW1, it makes me wonder where they were during the different grand exploits or security problems. Or the denial of the existence of an anti farm code. Or the introduction of Loot scaling and admitting that yep, there was an anti farm code.
Or the celestial pigs drama. Or the Xunlai Tournament House that was taken down for repair and never came back up, even after saying "yep we are working on it".
Or the "Yeah, we have other ideas, so we are letting GW1 die and we are going to create GW2". But this was all good because we witnessed the birth of the first Sylvari during EotN...

It would annoy me so much, but I wouldn't be surprised if in a year or two they tell us "Well start writing the eulogy for GW2 because we are going to make a new game"...

Anet isn't the worse company, and it's far from it. But honestly, how can someone be disappointed about them when they did worse in GW1. It's a shame some GW1 player love to idolize Anet, doing the company and GW2 more harm than good by over hyping them.

*I'm not necessarily targeting anyone in particular, it's based on observations from different posts through out time.

Edited by RedStar, 20 November 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[ScoutMATH]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Huh I thought my post was deleted...that's why it wasn't finished and I have no idea how I wanted to finish.



Solid ? I've already been over that.

Did they added powerful gear in GW1? Did they raise the level cap? Did they put grind?

The max armor that you gotten in April of 2005 still works up to now.

plus no monthly fees.

The one that you mentioned were negligible. it is the core design that stuck.

Now you have key people in Arena.NET showing you its manifesto, which is like the Constitution of the game and weeks after release it seems that their constitution has been trashed. it cannot be that these key people suddenly changed their minds in span of just weeks.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[fs23otm]

The manifesto means nothing... it is not written in stone....

God it is like Jerry Maquire and the Mission Statement.... It was just a mission statement.....

Edited by fs23otm, 20 November 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[ScoutMATH]

fs23otm, on 20 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

The manifesto means nothing... it is not written in stone....

God it is like Jerry Maquire and the Mission Statement.... It was just a mission statement.....

it means everything. it's the basis of trust. it's your vision. you flip flop, your integrity will crumble. you'll be a liar. you're not trustworthy anymore

And The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels changed the world. Remember USSR, Eastern Europe?

Or the Declaration of Independence?

Yeah, that's a manifesto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

It's sad how things have changed, but to be honest it was predictable.  Now the people that were ones who were telling "whiners" to quit a few weeks ago are all pissed, it's certainly not ironic or something unseen.  I'm not sure why people see the need to pretend these things are ok.  The game was meant to cater to a certain audience, but to say it was casuals only is quite silly.  The game has already been known to have things for more hardcore gamers, this just wasn't fully developed yet.  Now that their is some small resemblance of this development people are all upset.

I think the main problem with the game is the community thinking they knew this game front and back.  How could you not know this game was bound to make some big changed before the end of this year?  Their was no reason for people to pretend they knew everything about the game. Everyone keeps quoting Anet and saying the manifesto is broken...well let's be honest here did you really believe everything would not change at all?  If so, why? It has been a given since the first week that the game is growing constantly, not staying stagnant.

I never really cared for Anet themselves, nothing about them ever really made me think they were all that amazing.  Even from GW1, I never seen them as being that great and still to this day do not.  I just think people got so caught up in the typical hype and got burnt by it.  This happens all the time, no different than console games.


Gamers have started to seclude themselves early on more than any other MMO, it's quite sad.  I never expected this of all things going into GW2.  Things just kept escalating more and more with each patch.  It's always been the same argument of "this game is for us, not for you...go away".  Welp it's been made clear that this game may not be for everyone.

I hate this mystique many have have given themselves, all this "anti-Kr grind" speak is pretty disgusting to me. I enjoy many different types of MMOs in general and don't run around calling everything a "WoW clone" just b/c it has some grind.  This fear people have is irrational as hell It just shows lack of experience.  If you want to stick being only casual or hardcore and blindly label yourselves, by all means..but don't hate on those who choose not to care and may like both worlds.

It's just sad how "loyal" fans within the first few months changed their minds so easy. This knee jerk reaction people had to any kind of grind lol... (Month 1-2)- "I love this game it's so much fun! Nothing could make me quit"  

(Month 3) "We are adding some grind to the game"  "Omg I'm quitting, I hate this game!"

[RedStar]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Did they added powerful gear in GW1? Did they raise the level cap? Did they put grind?

The max armor that you gotten in April of 2005 still works up to now.

plus no monthly fees.

The one that you mentioned were negligible. it is the core design that stuck.

Now you have key people in Arena.NET showing you its manifesto, which is like the Constitution of the game and weeks after release it seems that their constitution has been trashed. it cannot be that these key people suddenly changed their minds in span of just weeks.

Negligible ? Giving up on a game is something you find negligible ? Wow...you hate this gear addition so much that dare to compare it to giving up almost entirely a game (and hyping an expansion that barely met reality) to this ? Really ?

And GW2 doesn't have any monthly fee, so I don't see why you want to remind this.

[ScoutMATH]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

And GW2 doesn't have any monthly fee, so I don't see why you want to remind this.

but i won't be surprised if next month they'll add a monthly fee because of this trend of suddenly changing decisions and not sticking to the game plan.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[GW Corrupted]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

3 weeks ago, it was the universal trend to disregard any negative feedback towards ANet and their amazing game, whether it was valid criticism or just pointless ranting. Those posts would commonly be treated as trash, and the posters would be called anywhere from "whiners" to "wow fanboys". They were also promptly asked to leave this game because "this is no wow clone and we don't need people like you in here", or the famous "no one will miss you".

Which complaints?  The ones that were akin to complaining that GW2 was not a FPS?  People came to a soccer game and complained on and on about how it wasn't more like basketball.  The people there to watch the soccer game naturally had a low tolerance for such boarish behavior.

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Now, it looks like there's no longer the need to remind anyone of how different this game is, or how there's no supposed "carrot on a stick". It looks like GW2 wasn't the best thing ever.

Because people are actually looking at reality and weren't the blind fanboys they were made out to be?

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

It's a sad realization, I know, I've been through that before but I'm over it now.

I wonder though...

Are the Ascended items enough of a reason to throw away everything you believed in? the stats aren't so much better compared to exotics FYI.

Another "the stats aren't THAT much higher" argument.  The stats are higher.  This alone is enough, yet we know they are higher for a reason.  This reason is recurring.  We are not idiots.

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Everything else worth complaining about has already been here from the start. The RNG factor (final karka event), the gem shop unfairness, the poor customer service, the lagging, the lack of content, etc.

However, everytime that someone complained about any of that, it was immediately frowned upon and / or laughed at.

RNG/Gem shop unfairness was about skins.  Now it is about stats.  I didn't see complaints about customer service.  Nor much of a complaint about the lagging.  What I did see was an endless amount of complaint about lack of content... made by people that didn't appreciate content but actually wanted grind.

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

I sense a strong sense of entitlement nowadays, 90% of the latest threads are complaining about something, and this time it doesn't seem that the "whiners" are the ones starting them.

ANet tried to please everyone and in the end pleased nobody.  Why shouldn't there be a lot of complaining?

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

And now finally, when some end game content makes its way to GW2, the forums explode in rage, as if those ascended items were enough to ruin this perfect game you've been playing all this time.

So what gives? This game has only 3 months, after all.  I'm amazed at how quickly the general opinion about GW2 has changed over the last week. Just know that y'all are overreacting just as badly as the people who you laughed at back then.

People don't need a perfect game to be happy with it.  Not everyone needs to be a fanboy to play without making complaints.  That doesn't mean that there aren't critical, defining elements to the game without which it falls apart.  I see you do not understand what actually happened here, and this lack of understanding leads to your amazement.  To people that know what transpired, they are not at all amazed.  Nor are they amused.

[ScoutMATH]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Negligible ?

What i was referring to negligible issues are the xunlai issue ,celestial pig issue, etc. it didn't affect the gameplay of GW1 so much. because my level 20 warrior with droknar armor can still go to UW and farm some ectos. and i can certainly do that now.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[RedStar]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

but i won't be surprised if next month they'll add a monthly fee because of this trend of suddenly changing decisions and not sticking to the game plan.

I've heard of games that were B2P that went Freemium or F2P, but I never heard of a game that did the opposite thing.

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

What i was referring to negligible issues are the xunlai issue ,celestial pig issue, etc. it didn't affect the gameplay of GW1 so much. because my level 20 warrior with droknar armor can still go to UW and farm some ectos. and i can certainly do that now.

So you chose to ignore the main thing and talk about the others ? No wonder you thought Anet reputation to be "solid"...

But hey, guess what, if I quit GW2 for a few months, I can still go do Arah with my armor. Unless they upscale old content, which I doubt.
(I know what you mean, but I choose to ignore part of it to make my point...)

[Fizzypop]

I've had host of problems with anets design since beta. However, it's a buy to play game and I do not want to spend $15 bucks a month on a game anymore. So I just deal or go along with it until I can't possibly play the game anymore. It's been going that way since October and I play less and less. I figure by next year I won't be playing at all.

There are things wrong with your post though. You assume people weren't complaining of any of the things you mentioned before, but didn't find them horrible enough to not play the game. Next I hate the word entitlement. We are an entitled species...I mean we kill animals, destroy our land, strip the world of natural resources, etc etc. We feel we are more important than anything else on this planet. So yeah can we just drop that bullshit at the door? Along with the crying, babies, and whining bullshit too? Why is it that if I say anything that isn't positive that I get labeled as any of the four mentioned? Instead of attacking each other like grade schoolers can we actually have a discussion that doesn't end in condescending or insulting behavior such as calling someone a whiner baby, to go back to X, or that they are somehow entitled? It'd be cool.

Edited by Fizzypop, 20 November 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[Majic]

Before, a lot of the complaints were about GW2 being the way ArenaNet told us it would be. Now, a lot of the complaints are about GW2 not being the way ArenaNet told us it would be.

The complaints changed because the game changed. It's no big mystery.

[fs23otm]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

it means everything. it's the basis of trust. it's your vision. you flip flop, your integrity will crumble. you'll be a liar. you're not trustworthy anymore

And The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels changed the world. Remember USSR, Eastern Europe?

Or the Declaration of Independence?

Yeah, that's a manifesto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto

If you think current governments are still riding the beliefs of their founding fathers put forth.... you are sadly mistaken... while the "core idea" might still exist the means have changed.


The same with the manifesto... while the core idea is still there... the details have changed.

[Andlát]

Their advertising team did their job well, core players fell for the bait, and now A-net turned their eyes towards the fans of more traditional MMO games. GW2 is Buy to Play, so they cant lose much - all they can do is sell the game to the part of the gaming community which likes progression after they sold it to the part that doesn't. The more copies they manage to sell - the better for them. As a consumer I hate this marketing strategy, but I understand - business is business.

Edited by Andlát, 20 November 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[ScoutMATH]

fs23otm, on 20 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

The same with the manifesto... while the core idea is still there... the details have changed.

the core idea was changed. lolwut?

[typographie]

Kymeric, on 20 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Once they've decided that, there is no stopping.  If people need a slight increase over Exotic because they've gotten all of their Exotics, it's ludicrous to think they won't need a slight increase over Ascended as soon as a good portion have achieved a full set of Ascended.  Over the life of the game, insignificant increases will eventually add up to significant increases, and then what?

The community has given such a warm, loving reception to Ascended items so far that Anet has felt it necessary to issue several different statements trying to explain what they're doing and that the sun will, in fact, rise tomorrow. I'm sure that since the community loves it so much, they'll just going to keep demanding infinitesimally small gear updates every month, and Anet will be happy to oblige.

Sarcasm aside, what you're saying adds up to worry and guesswork. You can't do anything about it anyway, why not just wait and see if it actually happens before you get upset?

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Arena.NET's reputation for 7 years was solid until November 15, 2012.

so it's not marketing.

you might want to check http://guildwarsguru.com to check how GW1 went.

What are you talking about? People on GWG bitched all the time. 55 Monks were "dead" and it was the end of the world, warriors were too strong in PvP and it was the end of the world, Eye of the North armor was too "grindy" and it was the end of the world. An MMO simply wouldn't be an MMO without attention-grabbing, page-long threats to quit.

[ScoutMATH]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

What are you talking about? People on GWG bitched all the time. 55 Monks were "dead" and it was the end of the world, warriors were too strong in PvP and it was the end of the world, Eye of the North armor was too "grindy" and it was the end of the world. An MMO simply wouldn't be an MMO without attention-grabbing, page-long threats to quit.

did they raised the level cap? did they put strong weapons? did they require people to grind? were the things that you got on 2005 became obsolete?

try again.

Edited by ScoutMATH, 20 November 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[AlixIcebane]

The biggest problem this game has atm is bugs.

Since release if someone disconnects he is not guaranteed to be able to come back to the dungeon group he was in and if you disco you can say bye bye fracts.

The fact that they are making useless events instead of fixing the game is a pain.

[Kymeric]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Sarcasm aside, what you're saying adds up to worry and guesswork. You can't do anything about it anyway, why not just wait and see if it actually happens before you get upset?

Sarcasm aside, I understand what you are saying.  I hope you're right.

The problem is that the reason they gave for adding it isn't solved by this one addition.  People hit endgame, and needed something to reach for.  The answer was Infusion and +stats.

When a lot of people have Ascended gear, there will be those same people wanting something to reach for.  If this was the solution this time, why would it be different the next time?  It's not a terrible leap to a far out conclusion here.

If someone does B in response to stimulus A, when A comes up again, why are they going to do differently?

Unless, of course, the stink on the forums has made them decide not to do it again.  In which case, your advice to "just wait and see" wouldn't make sense.

I'm not horribly upset.  Disappointed, yes.  Vocal about my opinions on forums, yes.  I still play the game and enjoy it (with the exception of my currently borked Mesmer due to a recent attempt at a fix).

[typographie]

Kymeric, on 20 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

If someone does B in response to stimulus A, when A comes up again, why are they going to do differently?

The way I see it, they're not adding an entire lineup of Ascended items that can just be crafted or easily obtained like Exotics can. Right now (and I expect, in the future), they are disparate individual pieces hidden away under some pretty involved content that requires a lot of time, energy and luck. Things like that can't really become the "new norm" over Exotics because they're so few, far-between and hard to get for most players.

Your exotics aren't obsolete if it takes several weeks for you to get each upgrade. In that sense, Ascended items may not just be a brainless 1:1 upgrade that everyone has to move to overnight to stay relevant.

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

did they raised the level cap? did they put strong weapons? did they require people to grind? were the things that you got on 2005 became obsolete?

try again.

I don't really want to post a huge quote-storm to go point-by-point, but in order:
-No, and as far as we know, neither will GW2 (...?)
-I don't know what "putting strong weapons" means. Legendaries?
-GW1 "required" you to grind for the same shit GW2 "requires" you to grind for.
-Sorta. Old GW1 weapons often required you to compromise on stats or pay far out the ass for them. Inscriptions made a lot of those older weapons pretty obsolete (unless absolutely perfect), or at least killed their market value.

Edited by typographie, 20 November 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[ScoutMATH]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

The way I see it, they're not adding an entire lineup of Ascended items that can just be crafted or easily obtained like Exotics can. Right now (and I expect, in the future), they are disparate individual pieces hidden away under some pretty involved content that requires a lot of time, energy and luck. Things like that can't really become the "new norm" over Exotics because they're so few, far-between and hard to get for most players.

Your exotics aren't obsolete if it takes several weeks for you to get each upgrade. In that sense, Ascended items may not just be a brainless 1:1 upgrade that everyone has to move to overnight to stay relevant.



I don't really want to post a huge quote-storm to go point-by-point, but in order:
-No, and as far as we know, neither will GW2 (...?)
-I don't know what "putting strong weapons" means. Legendaries?
-GW1 "required" you to grind for the same shit GW2 "requires" you to grind for.
-Sorta. Old GW1 weapons often required you to compromise on stats or pay far out the ass for them. Inscriptions made a lot of those older weapons pretty obsolete (unless absolutely perfect), or at least killed their market value.

-you sure?
-the sword that i got from droknar npc has the same stats as the sword that costs 1 zillion ectos.
-gw1 didnt require me to grind more. i got some gold, got the sword in the droknar npc and will not grind more gold to get a stronger sword. no such thing.
-no.