233 replies to this topic

[RedStar]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

did they raised the level cap? did they put strong weapons? did they require people to grind? were the things that you got on 2005 became obsolete?

try again.

No they put in titles and T-stones that required you to grind certain things in order to participate in groups. And before you mention how that isn't relevant, allow me to explain :

As of right now some people, a thread or two away, are complaining that they are being refused by some PuGs (like this was something new and only tied to "gear treadmills"...).
And, so far you can do Fractals and normally, by the time you actually need infusions and ascended rings (no armor or weapons yet), you would have either obtained them or be close to obtaining them, unless you really are unlucky (from what I can gather from players).

Of course, the future isn't clear, so I won't talk about that because I'm not fond of creating theories that have no sense.

[typographie]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

-you sure?

No, I'm not sure. No more sure than you are, anyway, because there is no information confirming or denying that anywhere. Which begs the question, why does the level cap keep coming up in this thread?

[Sword Hammer Axe]

I still find the poor customer service to be an odd thing to talk about, looking at how much they do to please us. They're not gods, you know.

Anyways, if you played the game with the "GW2 is perfect" or "best game ever" attitude or the likes, then of course you'd be the most disappointed one.

[FiachSidhe]

Anet is doing its best Bioware impression. Only with NCSoft holding the leash, rather than EA Games.

[AKGeo]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

even it is .000999% difference, it's still better.

1.000999 > 1.000000

And it costs 100g to get a full set. Totally not worth it. If I can spend 5g to get a full set of exotic crafted gear by buying all required materials, and it takes 20x that to get 10% better stats, with it main feature only being useful in a single dungeon, then it's definitely not going to break the game. PvE isn't going to have gear bigotry...regular dungeons aren't going to have gear bigotry (because Fractals is taking 90% of the playerbase away from them, it's hard enough to make groups as it is), and WvW CAN'T have gear bigotry. So...I don't see the problem.

[Beazy]

It boils down to people having to eat crow TBH. A lot of people bashed WoW etc. players for playing an old outdated shit heap of a game, and tried to pass of GW2 and the 2nd coming of Christ. They said things like "gear not needed", and "SKILLZ ONLY BRUH". Only to find out that MMO RPGS just dont work that well in that situation. So now ANet is going to add some gear or a "carrot" and now all the rabid fan boys look like complete idiots and they are trying to save face with "Thast it, im out, you broke your promise" speeches.

Facts are that GW2 cost millions to make. People are leaving the game, not in droves, but they are dropping off.  ANet is taking action to bring those people back with some meaningful endgame to try and make money. And that makes the fan boys mad, not because it will make the game worse, but because now they are being proven just how wrong they were. . . . and you can see it hurting them. Its actually funny as hell if you ask me.

Edited by Beazy, 20 November 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[Daesu]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

-GW1 "required" you to grind for the same shit GW2 "requires" you to grind for.

Not really.  This is how easy it is to get a maxed equipment in GW1: http://wiki.guildwar...llector_weapons

They are called collector's items.  Also note that these are just one way of getting them.  You can also get them from weaponsmith, as endgame reward, from loot (very easily as they rain down like flies in end game areas), etc.

How do you avoid getting maxed gear in GW1?  Really, because that is what I would like to know.

Edited by Daesu, 20 November 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[RedStar]

Daesu, on 20 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Not really.  This is how easy it is to get a maxed equipment in GW1: http://wiki.guildwar...llector_weapons

They are called collector's items.  Also note that these are just one way of getting them.  You can also get them from weaponsmith, as endgame reward, from loot (very easily as they rain down like flies in end game areas), etc.

http://wiki.guildwar...grade_component
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Runes

Yep really easy to get max weapons. Or are we ignoring that so one side of the argument is favored ?
Of course now, it's extremely cheap to get those things since the game is so old, the market is so full of them and the game now has so many green items.

But when Sorrow's Furnace came out, real max weapons weren't cheap.
And then Factions came and end game weapons appeared so that if you finish a campaign you were guaranteed to have a perfect weapon (but not necessarily with the bonuses you were looking for).

Runes are another subject. Some were as expensive as they could get (100k Vigor runes anyone ?) and some were kind of cheap because not a lot of players were using them.

Oh hey, something really stupid I remember : req 8 and even worse req 7 weapons...See ? Anet had some form of gear grind in GW1 . And more seriously, some builds actually took advantages of those weapons, even if it was kind of minor. But then again, every number in GW1 is minor, so even a difference in 10 damage is important.

Edited by RedStar, 20 November 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[Minion]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

It's a sad realization, I know, I've been through that before but I'm over it now.

It's not a sad realisation. If anything, it's a good thing that players can recognise a sub-par game and lying devs when they see them. Being blinded by hype and fanboyism is worse and the biggest let-down in any community; it overrides logic too easily.

[blindude]

Minion, on 20 November 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

It's not a sad realisation. If anything, it's a good thing that players can recognise a sub-par game and lying devs when they see them. Being blinded by hype and fanboyism is worse and the biggest let-down in any community; it overrides logic too easily.

lol you must  have been really hyped over the game to think of this..its amazing what things people expect from a game nowdays.
Either that or i cant see how its justified to claim such a thing in this case.

[Rossa Pera]

Tiny vocal minority of people who whine will always seem louder than the silent majority of people who don't.

[The_Tree_Branch]

Resolve, on 20 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I think the stat increase was the final straw for quite a few people, myself included. Before that it wasn't a big deal to overlook the flaws because they could be fixed in time. Ascended gear shows Anet has completely turned their back on things they've stood behind right up until 3 months after release, and shows the direction the game is going to head in.

And then the weekend event turns out to be a disaster. It's 2 pretty big mistakes in a row and Anet need to make some moves to regain some faith.

This right here. Game wasn't perfect before, but there was hope Anet would move in the right direction (7 years of GW1 showed that).

Ascended gear is a 180 degree turn.

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

http://wiki.guildwar...grade_component
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Runes

Yep really easy to get max weapons. Or are we ignoring that so one side of the argument is favored ?
Of course now, it's extremely cheap to get those things since the game is so old, the market is so full of them and the game now has so many green items.

But when Sorrow's Furnace came out, real max weapons weren't cheap.
And then Factions came and end game weapons appeared so that if you finish a campaign you were guaranteed to have a perfect weapon (but not necessarily with the bonuses you were looking for).

Runes are another subject. Some were as expensive as they could get (100k Vigor runes anyone ?) and some were kind of cheap because not a lot of players were using them.

Oh hey, something really stupid I remember : req 8 and even worse req 7 weapons...See ? Anet had some form of gear grind in GW1 . And more seriously, some builds actually took advantages of those weapons, even if it was kind of minor. But then again, every number in GW1 is minor, so even a difference in 10 damage is important.

To be fair you have to compare current GW1 with current GW2.  When GW1 was created, ArenaNet was a small startup, low on resources, and no experience shipping a game.  Now, ArenaNet has more resources and has gained vast experiences creating and maintaining GW1 for 7+ years.  

Comparing 3 months old GW1 with 3 months old GW2 would be implying that ArenaNet didn't learn anything from 7+ years of creating and maintaining GW1.

Runes are easy to get and current ZaiShen mission alone gives you enough gold to afford any rune within a week with just half hour of playtime per day.  Getting max stat gear are dirt cheap and easy in GW1 compared to in GW2.  The only grind you need in GW1 are getting the exotic skins that you may like and titles.  You don't need to grind to have the max PvE performances for your characters, unlike in GW2.

Edited by Daesu, 20 November 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Reikou, on 20 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

3 weeks ago anet didn't completely abandon the game that they set out to make with the manifesto.

You should just look at the quality of the new dungeon, it's so good this isn't a emergy solution because people whined about no "end-game"..
If you really want to imply they "betrayed" you and all that, you should know they were most probably even working on it before launch.

[StormDragonZ]

ANet discovered that trying to be different only makes people cry harder.

ANet still cannot think for themselves.

Why should I trust any gaming company that thinks "different" means less than 2% of the norm?

[Tyrant Crimson]

Peter Molyneux taught me not to take pre-game hype speeches seriously.

Daesu, on 20 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

You don't need to grind to have the max PvE performances for your characters, unlike in GW2.

Try to get to DoA with 1 rank Lightbringer or HA without a bambi.

Edited by Tyrant Crimson, 20 November 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Dasryn]

Shadowrose, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

3 weeks ago, it was the universal trend to disregard any negative feedback towards ANet and their amazing game, whether it was valid criticism or just pointless ranting. Those posts would commonly be treated as trash, and the posters would be called anywhere from "whiners" to "wow fanboys". They were also promptly asked to leave this game because "this is no wow clone and we don't need people like you in here", or the famous "no one will miss you".

idk about everyone else, but ive been personally asked to not comment anymore to the complainers as it only breeds more chaos and trash talking to the forums.

Edited by Rickter, 20 November 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Daesu]

Tyrant Crimson, on 20 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Peter Molyneux taught me not to take pre-game hype speeches seriously.


Try to get to DoA with 1 rank Lightbringer or HA without a bambi.

LB title makes so little influence in your performance, even in DoA.  Also, you can get max LB just by playing DoA with heroes, by the way.

My alt doesn't have maxed LB and she still doesn't have problems getting into a DoA pug for ZaiShen missions or otherwise.

If you want to be really picky, I would say that reputation affects performance in DoA than the LB title itself because PvE skills are so powerful.  But ArenaNet made it so easy, you can get max effects for these PvE skills with just mid level reputation.  You can reach your max potential by just playing through the game.

For GW2, they have to monetize it.  More difficult content, more repair costs, more waypoint costs (harder to run through), more need for max stat gear, more need for gold, leads to higher demand for gems (which can be easily converted to gold), Profit!  Gold sinks spur demand for gems for those who don't want to grind to farm gold.  Anything in the TP can be bought with real money actually.

Edited by Daesu, 20 November 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Ualtar]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

http://wiki.guildwar...grade_component
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Runes

Yep really easy to get max weapons. Or are we ignoring that so one side of the argument is favored ?
Of course now, it's extremely cheap to get those things since the game is so old, the market is so full of them and the game now has so many green items.

But when Sorrow's Furnace came out, real max weapons weren't cheap.
And then Factions came and end game weapons appeared so that if you finish a campaign you were guaranteed to have a perfect weapon (but not necessarily with the bonuses you were looking for).

Runes are another subject. Some were as expensive as they could get (100k Vigor runes anyone ?) and some were kind of cheap because not a lot of players were using them.

Oh hey, something really stupid I remember : req 8 and even worse req 7 weapons...See ? Anet had some form of gear grind in GW1 . And more seriously, some builds actually took advantages of those weapons, even if it was kind of minor. But then again, every number in GW1 is minor, so even a difference in 10 damage is important.

You are very right, just people don't remember things correctly.  It is like when people talk about the good old days.

Before greens came out, it was very hard to get perfect/max weapons and there was a ton of complaining about it.  People were very mad about how they couldn't get that req 9 sword, or the 15% hammer or whatever.  Superior Vigor runes were silly expensive.  In about 1500 hours of playing GW1 I never had one of those drop for me.

[RedStar]

Daesu, on 20 November 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Comparing 3 months old GW1 with 3 months old GW2 would be implying that ArenaNet didn't learn anything from 7+ years of creating and maintaining GW1.

Runes are easy to get and current ZaiShen mission alone gives you enough gold to afford any rune within a week with just half hour of playtime per day.  Getting max stat gear are dirt cheap and easy in GW1 compared to in GW2.  The only grind you need in GW1 are getting the exotic skins that you may like and titles.  You don't need to grind to have the max PvE performances for your characters, unlike in GW2.

Economy wise, because let's face it, the bulk of the complaints generally comes down do this : a casual player (whatever that means) cannot afford such the best items. For Ascended items this means being able to buy the mats to craft them.
So economy wise, you cannot compare a game that had (because I don't know the current situation) a flooded market and a brand new game.
So really what could Anet even learn ? Players praised how easy it was, some of them even saying "maybe it was a tad bit too easy". Others, see GW1 as the epitome of perfection...So yeah...it's no wonder that Anet doesn't know where to stand and decide to half ass everything.

I won't really talk about the logic behind how "dirt cheap" it is because after playing it for such a long time, I can't imagine myself as a new GW1 player.

Daesu, on 20 November 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

LB title makes so little influence in your performance, even in DoA.  Also, you can get max LB just by playing DoA with heroes, by the way.

What a coincidence : "For each rank of Lightbringer, you deal 5% more damage to and have +1 damage reduction against Abaddon and his demonic servants." So at rank 8 that's 8 dmg reduction and 40% increased damage. Hey ! Isn't that the same amount some people estimated for the difference between Exotics and Ascended ?

Edited by RedStar, 20 November 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[Redhawk2007]

A soon as I see the word "entitlement" in a post I know what follows will be typical fanboy crap. Yes, even the fanboys are getting fed up with the game and Anet's bait and switch BS, so less obsequious fawning and ad hominem attacks against players who expect Anet to live up to their word.

It's about honor, not "entitlement."

[Daesu]

RedStar, on 20 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Economy wise, because let's face it, the bulk of the complaints generally comes down do this : a casual player (whatever that means) cannot afford such the best items. For Ascended items this means being able to buy the mats to craft them.
So economy wise, you cannot compare a game that had (because I don't know the current situation) a flooded market and a brand new game.
So really what could Anet even learn ? Players praised how easy it was, some of them even saying "maybe it was a tad bit too easy". Others, see GW1 as the epitome of perfection...So yeah...it's no wonder that Anet doesn't know where to stand and decide to half ass everything.

I won't really talk about the logic behind how "dirt cheap" it is because after playing it for such a long time, I can't imagine myself as a new GW1 player.

Don't you know that ArenaNet has control of the economy in GW2?  If the cost of gems are too low, they can just make gold and buy them back.  Their gold sinks, which they also control, would take care of inflation.  Don't forget that ArenaNet was the one who reset the price of the superior absorption rune in GW1 from 100+ plats to 200 gold and it stayed that way.

It is THEIR game afterall.  They own the game code and servers.

Quote

What a coincidence : "For each rank of Lightbringer, you deal 5% more damage to and have +1 damage reduction against Abaddon and his demonic servants." So at rank 8 that's 8 dmg reduction and 40% increased damage. Hey ! Isn't that the same amount some people estimated for the difference between Exotics and Ascended ?

Only 5%?  I can give +100 armor to everyone around me with just "Save Yourself!" every 6s, and deal 140% of the damage back with "Pain Inverter", who cares about your LB title then?

Like I have said, PvE skills determine your performance in DoA more than LB title does.

And by the way, you can farm to max your LB title in 1 to 2 days.  Probably need more gold than 2 days worth of farming to get all your Ascended.

Edited by Daesu, 21 November 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[Kymeric]

typographie, on 20 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

The way I see it, they're not adding an entire lineup of Ascended items that can just be crafted or easily obtained like Exotics can. Right now (and I expect, in the future), they are disparate individual pieces hidden away under some pretty involved content that requires a lot of time, energy and luck. Things like that can't really become the "new norm" over Exotics because they're so few, far-between and hard to get for most players.

I was not surprised at all when people started proclaiming Ascended items to require a significant grind to get.  ANet stated that Legendaries were something they wanted people to take six months to a year to attain.  Exotics happen very quickly after level cap.  Ascended are supposed to fill that gap, so it's natural to expect that they are targeted to take four to eight months.

You're right.  Not immediately the new norm that everyone has to chase.

I'm thinking more long term than that.  I'm imagining playing this game for the next five years, and seeing that in six months we are going to have the same problem.  "I have my ascended and my legendary, ArenaNet, now what?  This game needs new 'content'."

If the answer was gear with +stats now, what is going to make the powers that be decide not to do it again?  ANet has agreed that people need to be retained with some power progression.  Eventually, the majority of players will reach the next plateau.  And the answer will be to add another step.

Five years later, provided it hasn't happened sooner, people who have been grinding out gear since launch are laughing at the silly fresh 80s who step into WvW for the first time.

Maybe not, but that's awfully optimistic, even for my usually rose tinted glasses.  Common sense points to a treadmill, and "This wasn't intended to be a gear treadmill" from the developers is lacking in detail required to be reassuring.

[Kymeric]

Rossa Pera, on 20 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Tiny vocal minority of people who whine will always seem louder than the silent majority of people who don't.

It's a rule of thumb backed by research in customer service that for every customer who complains to a company, there are 26 who don't and just simply find another provider.

For whatever that's worth.

[MazingerZ]

Kymeric, on 20 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

It's a rule of thumb backed by research in customer service that for every customer who complains to a company, there are 26 who don't and just simply find another provider.

For whatever that's worth.

Cited: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/hr005

Quote

All good managers want to hear about every complaint their customers have. Only when a complaint has been expressed can the appropriate corrective action be taken. Without customer complaints management often assumes that everything is okay.

It is estimated that for every customer complaint received, there are at least 26 complaints that are never expressed. What are the implications of this statistic? Furthermore, a customer with a complaint is likely to tell 20-25 other customers and potential customers about his complaint. Therefore, every organization needs a procedure for resolving customer complaints

Edit: Someone should post this on the forums.

Edited by MazingerZ, 20 November 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[Kymeric]

Thanks, Mazingerz.

It's too easy to just dismiss people as "a small minority of whiners".

[chrisbdrake]

ScoutMATH, on 20 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Did they added powerful gear in GW1? Did they raise the level cap? Did they put grind?

The max armor that you gotten in April of 2005 still works up to now.

plus no monthly fees.

The one that you mentioned were negligible. it is the core design that stuck.

Now you have key people in Arena.NET showing you its manifesto, which is like the Constitution of the game and weeks after release it seems that their constitution has been trashed. it cannot be that these key people suddenly changed their minds in span of just weeks.

Runes.  Did everyone forget about runes in Nightfall?

[Daesu]

chrisbdrake, on 21 November 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Runes.  Did everyone forget about runes in Nightfall?

Runes are cheap.  Just check the rune vendor.

[Zippor]

MazingerZ, on 20 November 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Cited: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/hr005



Edit: Someone should post this on the forums.

What I wish is that people would take their issues to the official forum, instead of spreading the same issue into five different topics in here.

[Ualtar]

Daesu, on 21 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Runes are cheap.  Just check the rune vendor.

now yes.  Then? not so much.