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Statistics Don't Lie For Warriors


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#1 Murmer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

So I got into a discussion earlier in-game with someone, who told me that the best dungeon group was one with 4 warriors and a guardian *tank*. He kept talking about statistics, but wouldn't really give me any except talking about 100b and how quick him and his compatriots run dungeons when they recruit only for level 80 warriors and the occasional guardian. I was slightly offended, because he invited me to the team, and said.

"Oh, an ele. LOL!"

Then they kicked me from the group. Hands down I think that takes the cake for the most hostile I've ever seen people towards elementalist. It makes me really want to consider abandoning my class for a warrior or guardian.

What do you guys think? Is this a response that you get when you want to run a dungeon and you're not a warrior or guardian?

#2 Apolus

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:43 AM

Don't abandon your profession. I can still find PUGs with any profession and we do dungeons smoothly (if the players are good of course).

#3 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:45 AM

I am a thief and have also seen this type of poor gamemanship.

I would not get too worked up about it. If they only know how to run a dungeon with their cookie cutter 100b spam then they may not be able to adapt to difficult situations and will probably just leave if challenged.

There are many fine players of many different professions out there and I'm sure they will be willing to take other profession pugs into dungeons.

#4 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:50 AM

Shrug it off, morons abound.  If you spend all your time shaking a stick at morons you won't have much time to do anything else.

#5 Murmer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:53 AM

I was just pretty surprised. I mean, I have no disdain for warriors just because they *appear*, to be the so called *best* class. Which is disputable. Yeah, I have a lot of AC dungeons to run, and it would just be a lot more helpful if I had a steady group to run with instead of PUGs where I have to deal with really rude people at times.

#6 caballo_oscuro

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:53 AM

Don't take it personally. Any dungeon can be run effectively with any set of professions. The limitation is skill and skills used.

There's a certain limitation with groups refusing non-80 characters but just get a good guild and you'll be fine.



#7 Wifflebottom

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:55 AM

Well I've seen "LF3M no mesmers" before. Alright, I'll just take my time warp, veil, and portals elsewhere. There are some retarded players

#8 Murmer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:58 AM

I'd almost pay money to see someone just start recruiting and say "no warriors". Though that would never happen I think due to the stigma of them being so much better.

#9 RecentlyTaken

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:59 AM

I've never seen anyone every refuse to take someone for being a certain class....

The only time i see people look for something specific is: 1.) need a heavy class (usually a guardian) or 2.) need a mesmer (for some specific dungeon, usually arah)

You just had bad luck. Most PUGS are decent from persona experiences.

#10 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:02 AM

View PostRecentlyTaken, on 21 November 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

I've never seen anyone every refuse to take someone for being a certain class....

GW1 Mesmers were the bastard stepchildren for "Missions".  Awesome in PvP, not very well liked by the majority (not everyone, but the mainstream average majority).

#11 Trei

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:07 AM

View PostMurmer, on 21 November 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

So I got into a discussion earlier in-game with someone, who told me that the best dungeon group was one with 4 warriors and a guardian *tank*. He kept talking about statistics, but wouldn't really give me any except talking about 100b and how quick him and his compatriots run dungeons when they recruit only for level 80 warriors and the occasional guardian. I was slightly offended, because he invited me to the team, and said.

"Oh, an ele. LOL!"

Then they kicked me from the group. Hands down I think that takes the cake for the most hostile I've ever seen people towards elementalist. It makes me really want to consider abandoning my class for a warrior or guardian.

What do you guys think? Is this a response that you get when you want to run a dungeon and you're not a warrior or guardian?
It's fine.
They are just noobs who can make it in the game with the only class easy enough for them to handle effectively.

But why would you consider abandoning your profession just because of this?
If it were me, I would be even more resolved in using my chosen profession to show these people where their level of play is really at.

Edited by Trei, 21 November 2012 - 04:09 AM.


#12 gance

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:10 AM

just because you get kicked by a group your quitting ele?

are you enjoying playing ele? if no the change, if yes then find a nice group who can notice your usefulness.

ele can grant might 7 for 20+secs,
and can heal really high + many usefull boons.

but yeah i think 4 warior + 1 guardian are great in dungeon and so are other builds,

5mesmer = 15 clones
5rangers = 5 pets
5necro = many minons
5assasins = (hahah i dont have idea for this one, fast kill maybe?)
5ele = infinite AOE/HEAL/Might/Boons/Conditions

#13 Al Shamari

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:33 AM

View PostTGIFrisbie, on 21 November 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

GW1 Mesmers were the bastard stepchildren for "Missions".  Awesome in PvP, not very well liked by the majority (not everyone, but the mainstream average majority).
Really, you think so? I found Mesmers extremely useful in many mission situations. Those interrupts could really make some hard fought battles 90% easier considering enemies couldn't get a damn skill off back in those days with a solid interrupt Mesmer.

#14 lujate

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:41 AM

View PostMr_Original, on 21 November 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

Well I've seen "LF3M no mesmers" before. Alright, I'll just take my time warp, veil, and portals elsewhere. There are some retarded players
I have never seen anyone actually broadcast prohibited professions, but I have gotten the "no Mesmers" response when whispering for an invite.

Some people just fail to realize that the player makes more difference than the profession.  The absolute worst player I have ever done a dungeon with was running a Warrior.  He spent most of the time downed, defeated or respawning.

#15 Bloggi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:45 AM

Speaking of AC dungeons...we ran it with an all-clothie group, and two of them were only leveled in the 40s. Did the run take longer? Yes it did. Was it a big deal? Hardly. We had a lot of fun and there was no complaining anywhere. Besides, AC is not so difficult that it should require strict team compositions.

Obviously the folk who are grinding it out only for the tokens, and they want to get it done quickly as possible. For those who are there for the tokens *and* also the fun, then there's really no fuss to be had.

There's some elitist bullshit floating around the game at the moment and I don't see it getting any better. Could it get worse? Perhaps it could. There's a lot of good people around though. Look for those. And play what you like. Personally I see the warrior as the last class I would ever level.

Why? Because I suck as a warrior. Simple as that. Different playstyles for different people.

#16 Murmer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:32 AM

View PostTrei, on 21 November 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:


But why would you consider abandoning your profession just because of this?
If it were me, I would be even more resolved in using my chosen profession to show these people where their level of play is really at.
Well this guardian told me that he solo'd path 3 with a warrior friend of his. Just the two of them. I'm still not sure I believe it but... if that was the case, then jeez... are warriors *THAT* much above everyone else to the point where just one of them can be more valuable then 2-3 other players? I posed that question to myself... Abandon might be to harsh a word, a leave of absence though? Since a level 80 elementalist is a level 80 elementalist. It was my first character, and I knew from reading beta stuff that it would be the hardest class to learn to play. Those skills will not be wasted.

View Postgance, on 21 November 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

just because you get kicked by a group your quitting ele?

are you enjoying playing ele? if no the change, if yes then find a nice group who can notice your usefulness.

ele can grant might 7 for 20+secs,
and can heal really high + many usefull boons.

but yeah i think 4 warior + 1 guardian are great in dungeon and so are other builds,

5mesmer = 15 clones
5rangers = 5 pets
5necro = many minons
5assasins = (hahah i dont have idea for this one, fast kill maybe?)
5ele = infinite AOE/HEAL/Might/Boons/Conditions

I'd love to see a 5 mesmer team, actually. That sounds like a ton of hilarity. But aye, I won't quit. I knew it would be hard going as soon as I read about them in the forums before I got the game. But I've been making it work. Just tonight I did a run 3 elementalist, a ranger, and a necromancer. The ranger and necro kept dying, but none of the elementalists did. So it felt good to prove the point that maybe even a 5 man elementalist team *would* work.

#17 paradiselight

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

If you have run enough dungeons, you would realize that the shorter runs are usually the ones with warriors in them. Or you could just look around youtube for people speed running dungeons and you'll see again warrior featuring a prominent role.

In my opinion, warrior is the meta profession in speed clearing dungeons. The thing is, once you have figured the dungeon out, and know when to dodge out of harm's way, survivability isn't that much of an issue anymore and DPS is more important. DPS is where a warrior shines.

Just look at the warrior skills and traits. Its all about pumping out damage and more importantly, helping your teammates to dish out more damage. FGJ gives a constant 3 stacks of boons plus + decent fury uptime. Banners of discipline is a party-wide +90 precision and +10 to crit damage. Rending strikes allow warrior to stack vulnerability. Greatsword's AA is just a vulnerability-stacking machine. And 100B does ridiculous damage, which is further compounded by forceful greatsword. Finally, warrior has the most useful PvE elite skill of the game --- signet of rage.

The only other class capable of dishing out as much damage is a thief, but a DPS thief is so much more fragile than a DPS warrior and has less versatility and support options.

As a theorycrafter, I can tell you that a full DPS warrior can easily out-dps 2 to 3 other professions with balanced gears combined. That's just how ridiculous warrior damage is. (I know people are going to ask me for the numbers, so I'll preempt this by saying that you could figure this out looking up the glass cannon warrior build, then the skill coefficient of warrior skills, the average amount of might and vulnerability stacks, the attack rate of the weapons, and finally the DPS. Do the same for the balanced builds for other professions. Add up the numbers and compare)

With that said, that doesn't mean in anyway that I condone what the warrior is doing. The current sets of dungeons is doable with any combination of classes.

Edited by paradiselight, 21 November 2012 - 06:07 AM.


#18 dawdler

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:18 AM

View PostMurmer, on 21 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

are warriors *THAT* much above everyone else to the point where just one of them can be more valuable then 2-3 other players? I posed that question to myself...
Yes they are. :surprised:

Say what you want about the "simplicity" of the classes, in terms of PvE Warriors and Guardians are simply the best due to well rounded armour, self-regen and damage. Player skill matter ALOT and the "winning combos" (like 5 of whatever class built for a purpose) can of course be unbeatable, but consider individual class in a broader sense.

I regularly run my toughness/vitality Warrior in dungeons and guess what? I am usually the last man standing in tricky situations. Not because I am a good player, but because I am a Warrior. I can spec the way I do and still be usefull in terms of damage.

I have a Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer as well and they are all fun to play and do individual things better (Mesmer is the best example), but they just arent as well rounded and stable in PvE.

Most build class cannons. Which is all fine and well (not really). But when you compare them... A glass cannon Warrior is about as tough as a defensive [insert any class]. That says it all. This means that the baseline Warrior is above the others.

For PvP, its of course another matter... But we are talking pure PvE here.

Edited by dawdler, 21 November 2012 - 06:19 AM.


#19 Veurr

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:30 AM

General pop is going to looking very much for whats fastest and easiest. That will always most likely be a group composed of mostly soldier classes for PVE dungeons. After reading about some things people were trying with guards and warriors on this forum I tried it tonight using a mesmer in the wild card slot. Its just incredible how quickly you can blow through dungeons.

Its also likely that those classes will remain near the top of PVE unless arenanet decides to really rework them. What makes them amazing isn't some gimick or specific spec but really just the nature of how the 2 classes interact with each other. If you like playing the elementalist by all means continue to do so. But there is not reason you can't level a guard or warrior to farm your tokens for you.

Guards and Warriors are also a dime a dozen so it shouldn't be that hard to find 2 of each and convince them to form a steady group with you. Give them water fields and fiery greatswords to play with.

Edited by Veurr, 21 November 2012 - 06:30 AM.


#20 Fenice_86

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:33 AM

You just found a moron, that's it, bad luck ^_^
World is full of them no worries!

#21 gance

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

View PostMurmer, on 21 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Well this guardian told me that he solo'd path 3 with a warrior friend of his. Just the two of them. I'm still not sure I believe it but... if that was the case, then jeez... are warriors *THAT* much above everyone else to the point where just one of them can be more valuable then 2-3 other players? I posed that question to myself... Abandon might be to harsh a word, a leave of absence though? Since a level 80 elementalist is a level 80 elementalist. It was my first character, and I knew from reading beta stuff that it would be the hardest class to learn to play. Those skills will not be wasted.

I'd love to see a 5 mesmer team, actually. That sounds like a ton of hilarity. But aye, I won't quit. I knew it would be hard going as soon as I read about them in the forums before I got the game. But I've been making it work. Just tonight I did a run 3 elementalist, a ranger, and a necromancer. The ranger and necro kept dying, but none of the elementalists did. So it felt good to prove the point that maybe even a 5 man elementalist team *would* work.

btw im a mesmer, my gf is an ele thats why i have an idea how their heal/boons works.

im not interested in 5mesmer dungeons,
my long term goal in this game is to create a guild only for mesmers, and could zerg in wvw. at least 20 mesmer will be fine.
i ask some and theyre not interested so i stop pushing the idea :qq:

about the necro and ranger kept dying. i dont think thats a class problem anymore. the party may lack teamwork, communication or something.
how can you die if so many Water field and Blast combo finisher?

thats the problem with other ele, they dont take advantage of the COMBOS where theyre class is good at

#22 Illein

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

I'm playing a shout warrior - when I PUG Fractals or anything else, I invite the people in order of their whispers raining in on me, I don't ask their class, I don't want to see their equipment - if they're the appropriate level, they're game.

Never had an issue with that, doing lots of dungeons. Even Fractals 10+ don't really require certain team compositions or any of that nonsense. Though I could imagine 20+ I'd want a second support in the group ;)

AND admittedly, while I don't ask for equip or anything - I usually ask them to change if they are wearing MF gear and I can see it. I hate it.

#23 Coren

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

Morons everywhere, play what you like. I was in a group with 2 warriors, a mesmer, a thief and me engineer. We're a group that run quite often, and sometimes the warriors switch to ranger or ele. We basically almost never die, except when someone does something stupid. If you know your profession, there's no problem. Warriors are super easy to play, that's why many use them, but are not more.effective than others.

#24 draxynnic

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:43 AM

Mesmers are being shunned? So, who are these people who are willingly cutting themselves off from the benefit of having three free and easily renewable distractions and some of the best elites in the game?

Oh, right. Morons.
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#25 lmaonade

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

Elementalist is great in dungeons, in fact, I think it's the only area of PvE that I think Ele shines in, I play an elementalist and I find myself woefully underpowered in solo situations but completely awesome in organized events, and when I'm on my warrior I'd always welcome an elementalist to dungeon parties (I'd welcome any class in fact, most of the dungeons are easy enough to do without restricting classes)

#26 XRay

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:11 AM

just ignore the tards, ele is fun and is great for dungeons.

#27 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

View PostAl Shamari, on 21 November 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Really, you think so? I found Mesmers extremely useful in many mission situations. Those interrupts could really make some hard fought battles 90% easier considering enemies couldn't get a damn skill off back in those days with a solid interrupt Mesmer.

Yeah I do think so, my favorite class was the Mesmer in GW1, had 2.  I mainly PvPed with them cause they were not very popular in missions or farming content like Sorrow's Furnace.  Either you were niche, like Minion N/Ms for Sorrow's Furnace (esp before the Fiend nerf) or you were part of the Holy Trinity (Healer, Tank, typically RANGED DPS), which the Mesmer did not fit.

Now in PvP, esp 4v4, mesmers were utter nightmares.

#28 Aetou

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

I've run a lot of dungeons.  I have both a Guardian and an Ele at 80 (plus a Ranger.)  Yes, 3 Warriors and 2 Guardians make something like AC faceroll quick.  However, AC is AC - pretty easy.  On harder content (like Arah Exp) the best group I've ever been in was 4 Eles (we ran 1 D/D, 1 S/D, 1 Staff & 1 Staff-Condion) plus a Mesmer.  Zero survivability issues.  Zero damage issues (not a single add on G.L. got more than a yard from us.)  Yes, if you are bad and running easy content then going all soldiers lets you just faceroll and not worry so much but in the hands of good players some of the classes with more depth become better - so long as you make the effort to bring out the synergy between them.)

#29 Murmer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

View Postgance, on 21 November 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

btw im a mesmer, my gf is an ele thats why i have an idea how their heal/boons works.

im not interested in 5mesmer dungeons,
my long term goal in this game is to create a guild only for mesmers, and could zerg in wvw. at least 20 mesmer will be fine.
i ask some and theyre not interested so i stop pushing the idea :qq:

about the necro and ranger kept dying. i dont think thats a class problem anymore. the party may lack teamwork, communication or something.
how can you die if so many Water field and Blast combo finisher?

thats the problem with other ele, they dont take advantage of the COMBOS where theyre class is good at

Usually they died because they were trying to play the lone ranger, or didn't know when to dodge/run. An all mesmer guild sounds like fun either way, and you guys could still run dungeons for kicks.

I probably will return to D/D when I have P/T/V armor. Until then, I feel a squishiness inside that is just to dangerous.

#30 Al Shamari

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostTGIFrisbie, on 21 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yeah I do think so, my favorite class was the Mesmer in GW1, had 2.  I mainly PvPed with them cause they were not very popular in missions or farming content like Sorrow's Furnace.  Either you were niche, like Minion N/Ms for Sorrow's Furnace (esp before the Fiend nerf) or you were part of the Holy Trinity (Healer, Tank, typically RANGED DPS), which the Mesmer did not fit.

Now in PvP, esp 4v4, mesmers were utter nightmares.
See, I found that with the eight man team set, there was enough room for: A healing Monk, a protection Monk, two Searing Flames (or whatever meta was at the time) Elementalists, a Warrior, a Barrage Ranger, a Minion Master Necromancer and a shutdown Mesmer. I found this to be a pretty kick ass, balanced team that allowed you to get through most scenarios. Obviously in more elite areas there were better "niche" group builds, of course. But, as far as balanced teams went, I always included a Mesmer for the most part.




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