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Guild Wars 2, Factions, open world pvp and Alliance Battles


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#1 Korra

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:17 AM

Hello there folks!

Open World pvp is for most the most attractive thing in an MMO, for the sake of ganking, increasing your e-peen or whatsoever.

And we all can agree  gw2 is missing that part, we have WvW but that is far from being what real open world pvp is. Considering the mechanics and the lore it would be almost imposible to add Real world pvp, besides of alot of people pveheroing arround.

So i propouse to bring back Factions and somehow alliance battles, which imo was the funniest part of Gw1. Not bring AB and factions back as they were but more the concept.

So here goes nothing.

Factions:

-Two factions would be added to the game (for this post we will call them Luxon and Kurzick).
-Guilds would be able to choose un faction to ally with
-Any player representing the guild is counted as a faction member.
-Changing Guilds would change what faction you represent.

Maps and mechanincs:

-One really big level 80 pve map would be open, it would work as a normal pve map.
-Each faction would have a waypoint in each point of the map
-Different factions would be hostile to each other.
-Half of the map would be kurzick zone and the other half luxon.
-Defeating monster in this Area would yield faction points. The highest the mob ranking is the more points it yield. Completing Dynamic events would yeild faction points too.
-Defeating players would give points too.
-Defeating Monsters in enemy territory would give double points.
-Points are indiviual but you could give them in for faction bonus (pretty much like in Gw1).
-Each Faction have a legendary boss (something big, not a freaking Soldier with legendary rank.), defeating the enemys boss would yield a great amount of points plus some nice drops.
-Enemy factions npcs will be hostile. They reward Faction points and they are located arround the enemy zone.
-Not representing any guild will make all npc friendly, including Legendary Bosses.
-Players not representing any guild or players in a guild that is not ally with any faction wouldn't be affected by any of the points above thus being just normal pve.
-When a player enter the map representing a guild, this cannot stand down or change representation while in the map.


Posted Image


Rewards:

-Faction related armors and weapon in a range of three tiers aviable in exchange for faction points.
-Consumables
-Perhaps something like ol' zaishen keys.


I think it would be a nice way to get some nice Open world pvp while not breaking the lore nor the mechanics and giving a new interesting aspect to the game.

Take care

Edited by Korra, 21 November 2012 - 02:06 PM.


#2 Chibii

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

sounds like the whole Luxon vs Kurzick in Fort Aspenwood, Jade Quarry and Alliance Battles from GW1.

#3 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostChibii, on 21 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

sounds like the whole Luxon vs Kurzick in Fort Aspenwood, Jade Quarry and Alliance Battles from GW1.

Hence Korra saying "Bring back... GW1" :P

#4 Korra

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

View PostChibii, on 21 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

sounds like the whole Luxon vs Kurzick in Fort Aspenwood, Jade Quarry and Alliance Battles from GW1.

View PostKorra, on 21 November 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:



So i propouse to bring back Factions and somehow alliance battles, which imo was the funniest part of Gw1. Not bring AB and factions back as they were but more the concept.


:)

#5 Korra

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:07 PM

Edit with map and Changes!

#6 Chibii

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:51 PM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 21 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Hence Korra saying "Bring back... GW1" :P
oh, so  they did, must have missed that part.

Cantha is going to return but for the Luxon and Kurzicks, they no longer exist in the lore of GW2. But I agree, would love to see it all come back, Fort Aspenwood was some of the best fun I had in GW1 :)

#7 Senatic

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

I see no point in this what soever, it's basically WvW in another place. What's the point? I say keep the servers players working with each other, don't divide them in to even more arbitrary and smaller groups of people. Unnecessary segregation for very little good reason seems a bad way to go. Almost everything you could possibly want from open world PvP can be found in WvW, even being a douchebag and trolling people for the luls (jumping puzzles) can be found in there.

Also, the Luxon and Kurzick doesn't exist anymore, they were forcefully incorporated into the Empire of the Dragon by Emperor Usoku. Just a little correction, you could surely find two other factions to fit the theme.

I see you put some effort into your post, and thinking it through, so I apologies before hand if my opinion offends.

Edited by Senatic, 22 November 2012 - 12:10 AM.


#8 Gilles VI

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:01 AM

View PostChibii, on 21 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

oh, so  they did, must have missed that part.

Cantha is going to return but for the Luxon and Kurzicks, they no longer exist in the lore of GW2. But I agree, would love to see it all come back, Fort Aspenwood was some of the best fun I had in GW1 :)

They are conquered by the emperor, that's all.
There was no luxon/kurzick holocaust or something, they do still exist :P

#9 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:26 AM

View PostSenatic, on 21 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

I see no point in this what soever, it's basically WvW in another place. What's the point? I say keep the servers players working with each other, don't divide them in to even more arbitrary and smaller groups of people. Unnecessary segregation for very little good reason seems a bad way to go. Almost everything you could possibly want from open world PvP can be found in WvW, even being a douchebag and trolling people for the luls (jumping puzzles) can be found in there.

Also, the Luxon and Kurzick doesn't exist anymore, they were forcefully incorporated into the Empire of the Dragon by Emperor Usoku. Just a little correction, you could surely find two other factions to fit the theme.

I see you put some effort into your post, and thinking it through, so I apologies before hand if my opinion offends.

Except there is a vast difference between the competitive missions of Factions and WvW of GW2. I would KILL for an updated version of Jade Quarry/Fort Aspenwood or the Alliance Battles in GW2. WvW is a zergfest, PvP in Factions incorporated large-ish amounts of players, PvE elements and tactical PvP elements. I absolutely loved it. WvW is neither individualistic nor team based, it's pretty much just follow everyone else around and swamp the other team.

#10 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:27 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 22 November 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

They are conquered by the emperor, that's all.
There was no luxon/kurzick holocaust or something, they do still exist :P

thank god..because i love kurzicks...would hate to see both gone, they added the best spin to Factions, to be honest, if it were lets say "Order of Whisper vs Sunspear" in the original factions, i probably wouldnt of liked it so much

#11 Cutthroat

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:01 AM

AB was the funniest part of GW1 for me too because of the great community. I really liked the gameplay as well, the aggressive playstyle my team had was a lot of fun. I liked the fair skirmishes and defending shrines the most. However, I hate how the ancestral lands ended up being the most common map. Also, it really pissed me off when Anet killed AB by buffing FA & JQ zzz.. they also made the allegiance rank a PvE title lol. I didn't play AB for rewards tho, but it was nice to make a million by selling Zaishen keys :D

WvW can be random fun but I feel like it has the worst parts of AB & FA: mobbing & hitting gates :P I think they'll add GvG next. Something like AB would be appreciated to return alongside Cantha. I just don't know how fun it would be without monks and with the downed state. I miss GW1's "hack n slash" combat. They need to bring back Bull's Strike at least.

AB is still there and it wouldn't be too hard to organize it "alive" on weekends. 7 December = AB zaishen quest = Friday. It would be epic to play that weekend.

#12 Al Shamari

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:10 AM

Quote

-Not representing any guild will make all npc friendly, including Legendary Bosses.
Hacks: Communicate with your guild, mass un-represent, travel across enemy lines using Thief stealthing and portal bombing, travel as a group enemy Legendary Bosses, as a group re-represent, gank, prosper.

#13 Korra

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:35 AM

View PostAl Shamari, on 22 November 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Hacks: Communicate with your guild, mass un-represent, travel across enemy lines using Thief stealthing and portal bombing, travel as a group enemy Legendary Bosses, as a group re-represent, gank, prosper.

if you look the line under it says, once u enter the map you cannot change reprsentation in order to avoid what u just said :)

#14 Al Shamari

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:58 AM

View PostKorra, on 22 November 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

if you look the line under it says, once u enter the map you cannot change reprsentation in order to avoid what u just said :)
I was scanning, literally the only line I didn't end up reading. Damn you for posting it at the end!

#15 Gilles VI

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

View PostVanderBeltLegacy, on 22 November 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

thank god..because i love kurzicks...would hate to see both gone, they added the best spin to Factions, to be honest, if it were lets say "Order of Whisper vs Sunspear" in the original factions, i probably wouldnt of liked it so much

Yeah, I liked that part of factions too. :)

#16 Rekkwum

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

Many AB matches turned into just as much zerg-fest as WvW. When all 12 enemy players balled up, it was just as bad as the very worst I've ever encountered in WvW, and had a bigger knock-on effect as the maps were smaller. Scale that up to more players, and it's not going to be any different than WvW is atm.

Getting points for NPC kills is a bad idea - you promote camping high-reward points and sitting there. Why take the risk of fighting other players when you can get your own reward just hanging around the same location. Without capturing points, you end up with a stagnant PvP - averse, distant battlefield.

There's no long-term strategy, you just wander around stabbing things.

I really don't see any advantage in this over WvW.

Edited by Rekkwum, 22 November 2012 - 01:46 PM.


#17 Korra

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

View PostSenatic, on 21 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

I see no point in this what soever, it's basically WvW in another place. What's the point? I say keep the servers players working with each other, don't divide them in to even more arbitrary and smaller groups of people. Unnecessary segregation for very little good reason seems a bad way to go. Almost everything you could possibly want from open world PvP can be found in WvW, even being a douchebag and trolling people for the luls (jumping puzzles) can be found in there.

Also, the Luxon and Kurzick doesn't exist anymore, they were forcefully incorporated into the Empire of the Dragon by Emperor Usoku. Just a little correction, you could surely find two other factions to fit the theme.

I see you put some effort into your post, and thinking it through, so I apologies before hand if my opinion offends.

WvW is purely ZvZ its not even close to open pvp. Small fights and such are very rare in WvW.

Also i know kurzick and luxon wouldn't be aviable, that why i said we will call them luxons and kurz in this thread

#18 Korra

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:10 PM

View PostRekkwum, on 22 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Many AB matches turned into just as much zerg-fest as WvW. When all 12 enemy players balled up, it was just as bad as the very worst I've ever encountered in WvW, and had a bigger knock-on effect as the maps were smaller. Scale that up to more players, and it's not going to be any different than WvW is atm.

Getting points for NPC kills is a bad idea - you promote camping high-reward points and sitting there. Why take the risk of fighting other players when you can get your own reward just hanging around the same location. Without capturing points, you end up with a stagnant PvP - averse, distant battlefield.

There's no long-term strategy, you just wander around stabbing things.

I really don't see any advantage in this over WvW.

I know many AB matches turned into zerg, but making a huge map with no fixed objective other than the boss would dissolve the zergs pretty fast.

>There's no long-term strategy, you just wander around stabbing things.

That's the point.

#19 Rekkwum

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

View PostKorra, on 22 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

I know many AB matches turned into zerg, but making a huge map with no fixed objective other than the boss would dissolve the zergs pretty fast.

>There's no long-term strategy, you just wander around stabbing things.

That's the point.

How would it dissolve zergs?

Numbers will still give a huge bonus when fighting other players, so a zerg will still be able to stomp on individuals with impunity..
Due to the joint-reward system, NPCs killed  reward anyone who damaged them full points, so zergs help there. The champion you note would be a huge zerg target.
You lack the ability for small groups to make strategically significant hits - eg, ganking dolyaks, taking camps. Without being able to out-maneuver the  enemy, zergs are the only things that really matter.
You lack any anti-zerg seige, meaning that a zerg can only be defeated by another zerg.
Without key points, you lack any co-ordination if the enemy have a zerg and you don't.


This would be way worse than WvW.

#20 Alaroxr

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 22 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

WvW is neither individualistic nor team based, it's pretty much just follow everyone else around and swamp the other team.

Go to an upper tier server and see if that holds true. You don't get to t1-t3 without coordination.

#21 Zheo

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

Not saying that any of this is a bad idea, but it seems to me this concept would ultimately be a large scale GVG...you represent a faction/guild and fight for dominance on a map. Not so different from sPvP but just on a larger map. Would make for an interesting story arc if you had to choose Kurzick or Luxon and that heavily influenced your personal story for the expansion. I'm thinking beyond what was in the factions expansion in that GW1 was just a few missions and you could switch whereas in this your decision is firm, like the order you choose to join (Vigil or whatever)

#22 Korra

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostRekkwum, on 22 November 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

How would it dissolve zergs?

Numbers will still give a huge bonus when fighting other players, so a zerg will still be able to stomp on individuals with impunity..
Due to the joint-reward system, NPCs killed  reward anyone who damaged them full points, so zergs help there. The champion you note would be a huge zerg target.
You lack the ability for small groups to make strategically significant hits - eg, ganking dolyaks, taking camps. Without being able to out-maneuver the  enemy, zergs are the only things that really matter.
You lack any anti-zerg seige, meaning that a zerg can only be defeated by another zerg.
Without key points, you lack any co-ordination if the enemy have a zerg and you don't.


This would be way worse than WvW.

My point is to make a viable pve map with open world pvp while giving some skins as reward.

I dunno if you ever played Blaurea in Aion but it's pretty much the style i propouse and while i'm not saying we should make a copy of it Open pvp world would give a fun aspect to the boring pve without being necesary a zergfest since there's almost no point other than the big boss to zerg.

View PostZheo, on 22 November 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Not saying that any of this is a bad idea, but it seems to me this concept would ultimately be a large scale GVG...you represent a faction/guild and fight for dominance on a map. Not so different from sPvP but just on a larger map. Would make for an interesting story arc if you had to choose Kurzick or Luxon and that heavily influenced your personal story for the expansion. I'm thinking beyond what was in the factions expansion in that GW1 was just a few missions and you could switch whereas in this your decision is firm, like the order you choose to join (Vigil or whatever)

Imo it's pretty different from Spvp, i don't even think they have anything in common other than pvp. For the same rule we could say WvW is like spvp but with zergs. Which obviously it isn't.

#23 actionjack

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

As much as I like the suggestion.. it sounded just like WvW?   (there are PvE in WvW too)

What mechanic is there to make it none WvW-ish?

And while open PvP world is fun, there are also people who think it is not fun.  Thus how to prevent that?

#24 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 22 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Go to an upper tier server and see if that holds true. You don't get to t1-t3 without coordination.

I'm on Sea of Sorrows which is like what, in third place?
And yes, there is co-ordination, but it's about co-ordinating a zerg...

Edited by Flaming_Foxx, 22 November 2012 - 08:54 PM.


#25 Alaroxr

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 22 November 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

I'm on Sea of Sorrows which is like what, the third tier?
And yes, there is co-ordination, but it's about co-ordinating a zerg...

Sea of Sorrows is in t1 and winning 1st place, up from t4 over the last two months due to a massive effort by the WvW guilds across all timezones. Join TSym/FoE/AoI-Alliance/PRX, etc if you want coordination. You don't go from t4 to winning t1 by zerging.

The essence of WvW isn't running out there with random people and doing random things. If you think that's what wins WvW, you're severely mistaken.

Edited by Alaroxr, 22 November 2012 - 08:22 PM.


#26 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 22 November 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Sea of Sorrows is in t1 and winning 1st place, up from t4 over the last two months due to a massive effort by the WvW guilds across all timezones. Join TSym/FoE/AoI-Alliance/PRX, etc if you want coordination. You don't go from t4 to winning t1 by zerging.

The essence of WvW isn't running out there with random people and doing random things. If you think that's what wins WvW, you're severely mistaken.

Which quite nicely highlights my point.
WvW strategy isn't all that easy to pick up, even just paying attention to the map chat, if you don't already understand it then you're going to have no clue what is going on. Same issue if you aren't in a WvWing guild. Yes some people can pick this up really easily, but for a lot of players it just isn't going to make all that much sense and they are left feeling like they aren't really contributing.
CM and AB in GW1 didn't have that issue, it was about smaller team based efforts that were a refreshing change from straight up PvP. You learned very quickly how to play a role in your team and you worked with the other players to hold your factions place on the map.

#27 V1nom

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:34 AM

Be cool if Arenanet brought back the Alliance battles and Lux & Kurz. But Open World PvP would not work in GW2 on how they have the game set up.

#28 Korra

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostV1nom, on 23 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Be cool if Arenanet brought back the Alliance battles and Lux & Kurz. But Open World PvP would not work in GW2 on how they have the game set up.
It's only for 1 map.

View Postactionjack, on 22 November 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

As much as I like the suggestion.. it sounded just like WvW?   (there are PvE in WvW too)

What mechanic is there to make it none WvW-ish?

And while open PvP world is fun, there are also people who think it is not fun.  Thus how to prevent that?

The difference is that there is no incentive in doing pve in WvW, This would work like  a normal pve map.

Ppl who think open world pvp is not fun have two options Enter without representing or don't enter at all since you are not forced to do it.

#29 Rekkwum

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:05 AM

View PostKorra, on 22 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

I dunno if you ever played Blaurea in Aion but it's pretty much the style i propouse and while i'm not saying we should make a copy of it Open pvp world would give a fun aspect to the boring pve without being necesary a zergfest since there's almost no point other than the big boss to zerg.
If you give lots of points for player kills, people will zerg for the points. If you give few points for player kills, people won't do any PvP, just ignore each other and kill mobs. Somewhere in the middle would make solo/small groups fight NPCs until they get zerg-crushed by a large group steamrolling everything in it's path.
People zerg in Orr without bonus-points per kill. There's no way your gametype will change anything.

View PostKorra, on 23 November 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

It's only for 1 map.

The difference is that there is no incentive in doing pve in WvW, This would work like  a normal pve map.

Ppl who think open world pvp is not fun have two options Enter without representing or don't enter at all since you are not forced to do it.

Apart from sentry points, quaggan camps, dolyaks, misc events (gold and karma), camps (gold, karma and badges) you mean? There's plenty of PvE stuff in WvW, but sometimes you get ganked doing it. I see no reason why the same wouldn't apply here.

#30 Dominique de Lombre

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:50 AM

This map, would it be open or a map for a match like AB? If it's the latter then I would love this because I loved AB, JQ, FA... I mostly loved JQ ;) Hope they bring this back. Good work on the post!




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