32 replies to this topic

[jacksj1]

One of the dumbest and most massive bugs I've ever seen in a PvP game. Or did ANet intend Catapults to fire ammunition that portals through gates. This affects everyone in WvW constantly.

Have ANet commented on this or a potential fix date ?

[Killminusnine]

Working as intended?

[Wotah]

jacksj1, on 21 November 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

One of the dumbest and most massive bugs I've ever seen in a PvP game. Or did ANet intend Catapults to fire ammunition that portals through gates. This affects everyone in WvW constantly.

Have ANet commented on this or a potential fix date ?

If they did that they would have to fix the way that one of the worst possible places to be in a siege attempt is on a wall.  It's odd, but they've come up with a game that it's easier to defend from behind a gate than on the fortified wall.

I'm thinking intended.

[Killminusnine]

Wotah has a good point.

Taking away catapult door defense would really damage the meta.  They would need to compensate by taking away the ability to place AoE on top of walls completely.  That would enable defenders great security to peek and shoot while also increasing the relative power of arrow carts (and possibly ballistas).

[Lalnuir]

Pretty sure anet has said they never intended aoes to go through objects but they don't know how to fix it.

If they did you would be able to repair gates from the inside without dieing to all the aoes being used from the other side and aoes used on the side of the wall wouldn't hit defenders on top.

[Ngamok]

They mentioned that it is pretty hard to code that.  If they do that to catapults, they'd have to do it to pretty much every AoE spell as well.

[Aetou]

While the change is needed thematically it isn't needed in terms of balance.  Or to put it another way, if they make this change they need to come up with an equally effective replacement (as Oil/Siege on the top of walls is a joke currently.)  That replacement would probably have to be a redesign of the fortifications themselves to allow defenders somewhere to attack from safely without being overwhelmed.  Exposed Oil pots are just a dumb idea, basically - you could get rid of catapults behind doors if Oil couldn't be sniped down in less than a minute by a small attack force.  Currently Catapults behind the door give approximately the sort of anti-ram protection that Oil is supposed to (or needs to) give.

[Soylent]

Aetou, on 21 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Currently Catapults behind the door give approximately the sort of anti-ram protection that Oil is supposed to (or needs to) give.

Pretty much. Just treat it as an Oil pot that's actually working as intended.

[mehwoot]

So much whining.  Oil pots are working as intended. ​Before they go down, you can't go near the door.  But they can be attacked from outside.  Siege and attacking on the walls is effective.  You can AOE the attackers just as well as they can AOE you; there are some spots you can put arrow carts that are very hard to attack that let you attack almost anybody standing outside.

It seems people are complaining because there is no safe way to simply hit people as a defender without some risk to yourself (apart from the catapult bug)- and why the hell would there be?  If there was, wouldn't everyone inside simply stack seige on that position and kill everyone outside?  5 people should not be able to defend against 30+, else the game simply wouldn't work.  The way it works now, you can defend effectively when there are around twice as many or less attackers than defenders.  People seem to just want to sit somewhere completely safe and AOE attackers but the game would be broken if that happened.

[VicMorrow]

easy to fix. just make it dmg own door.

i agree with defender need to have soem risk to attack. higher wall maybe?

[Espritdumort]

mehwoot, on 23 November 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

So much whining.  Oil pots are working as intended. ​Before they go down, you can't go near the door.  But they can be attacked from outside.  Siege and attacking on the walls is effective.  You can AOE the attackers just as well as they can AOE you; there are some spots you can put arrow carts that are very hard to attack that let you attack almost anybody standing outside.

Most players can't operate the oil pot for more than a few seconds before succumbing to the AoE hitting the pot.  More often than not, I've seen people building and operating rams with the oil pot still there, because everyone else's AoE on the pot is preventing the enemy from touching it.

Defending on a wall can also be difficult, you pop up over the ledge to not be "obstructed" and you are quickly the target of the attackers, or pulled from the ledge, especially if there are a lot of attackers.

I don't think the mechanic is necessarily broken, but it can be frustrating defending a keep when AoE spam is preventing you from getting close to the edge.

[jacksj1]

mehwoot, on 23 November 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

People seem to just want to sit somewhere completely safe and AOE attackers but the game would be broken if that happened.

This is what's happening with Catapults. One catapult behind every tower/keep door is standard and a priority when you take a location.

Importantly :

1. the catapult can't be damaged.
2. building a catapult doesn't need any supply in the tower/keep
3. they cost a fraction of the supply needed to build oil or cannons.



Of course it's broken. One player can do enormous AE damage and knockdown, constantly, through a door and own the area outside the keep/tower, while being immune to damage.

Edited by jacksj1, 23 November 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[RyuuAkari]

jacksj1, on 23 November 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

This is what's happening with Catapults. One catapult behind every tower/keep door is standard and a priority when you take a location.

Importantly :

1. the catapult can't be damaged.
2. building a catapult doesn't need any supply in the tower/keep
3. they cost a fraction of the supply needed to build oil or cannons.

the thing is, before mesmer could just send it their clone if the manage to target the siege stuff and damage it. I mean ive seen many phantom berserker coming out of nowhere focusing my treb that was inside the wall up on a supply house within stormmist castle.

now I assume this could be done the same with catapults behind the gate. (before, not anylonger)

[Mif]

If you patched this you would also have to deal with people being able to repair doors without being damaged, which would change the meta game a lot more than the cata behind the door trick ever did.

VicMorrow, on 23 November 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

easy to fix. just make it dmg own door.

And within 5 minutes of the patch going live, you'll have players transfering to their current opposing servers to build catapults behind doors and no one will be able to kill them.

Edited by Mif, 23 November 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[drkn]

Quote

And within 5 minutes of the patch going live, you'll have players transfering to their current opposing servers to build catapults behind doors and no one will be able to kill them.

No one forces the real defenders to use those catas.
The idea is pretty neat, actually - if it's hard to code, just add friendly fire from warmachines to objects, possibly even other warmachines, regardless of affinity.

[Killminusnine]

drkn, on 25 November 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

No one forces the real defenders to use those catas.
The idea is pretty neat, actually - if it's hard to code, just add friendly fire from warmachines to objects, possibly even other warmachines, regardless of affinity.

It's really one of the worst ideas that you can conceive of for WvW changes.  You would have cross server griefing and people just being douches constantly and dropping their own doors.  It would be one of the most epic fails in the history of MMO PVP.

[Sonzai_Moto]

Make mesmers no longer need LOS to summon iBerserker. Then they can take out the cats.

[Alathon]

VicMorrow, on 23 November 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

easy to fix. just make it dmg own door.

They've been careful to limit the ways that people can teamkill, and some still feel a need to abuse siege cap and waste supply on opponent servers.  We are better off with fewer ways for players on the same server to ruin things.  Imagine trying to stop some asshole from opening up every tower and keep gate with defensive siege.. when you can't damage them, or the siege, because it's all friendly tagged.

[drkn]

Then add 'Friendly Fire Greater Retaliation' to gates, instakilling anyone allied who would attack the gate with a treb or a cata.
Yes, it would make defensive trebbing harder. But it would also be a bandaid for a stupid mechanic of catas hitting through the door without damaging it until a proper coding solution is found to stop the splash damage on walls and objects.

[Anzuri]

Working as intended the catapult whacks the door thus sending a shock wave that knocks anyone on the other side. But team damage is turned off . Easy counter just use trebs or catas on the door  or build the ram an use it as far back as possible

[Ngamok]

jacksj1, on 23 November 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

This is what's happening with Catapults. One catapult behind every tower/keep door is standard and a priority when you take a location.

Importantly :

1. the catapult can't be damaged.
2. building a catapult doesn't need any supply in the tower/keep
3. they cost a fraction of the supply needed to build oil or cannons.



Of course it's broken. One player can do enormous AE damage and knockdown, constantly, through a door and own the area outside the keep/tower, while being immune to damage.

What's keeping people from running up to the keep / tower wall and dropping 2 catapults right there on top of it.  The catapults can't damage you like they can the door as easily.  We do it all the time.  Don't care about the front door.  Easier sometimes to just drop a wall with 2 catapults.

Killminusnine, on 25 November 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

It's really one of the worst ideas that you can conceive of for WvW changes.  You would have cross server griefing and people just being douches constantly and dropping their own doors.  It would be one of the most epic fails in the history of MMO PVP.

Exactly this.  During one of our match ups, we had someone from an opposing server transfer over and drop something like 40 arrow carts in a hidden location (obviously was found).  People kept complaining that they couldn't place any more siege because we hit the cap.  If there is a way to exploit a situation, someone will find it.  And yes, people will transfer over to keep knocking down doors and such for their team if catapults did friendly fire to doors.

[lamplighter]

I don't see why all the complaining about catas behind doors. It's something I run into all the time, and use in return defensively. If you run into a place where there's a cata just use a cata yourself as other have mentioned, it's only 50 supply, 10 more than a ram. You all act like there's only one way to get into a place. Also when you're defending something, yeah you have to worry about AoE, you're popping up in front of a bunch of people who have no cover, you really think you can just sit safely perched up on wall with your junk hanging out for all to see, and kill people? Yes that's right, WvW actually requires some strategy! There's always going to be a situation where a piece of siege is not accessible to destroy unless they nerf everything completely, be smart enough to get around it.

[Impmon]

They're able to fix mesmer phantasmal berserkers why can't they fix the aoe splash damage ?  Followed by elementalist dragon tooth which doesn't seem to operate on LOS.

[Aso]

Working as intended?

[Vihar]

I don't see thee issue as something that needs fixing.

   As a defender, it is harder to attack from the walls than it is for the attackers to attack walls, which is as stupid a mechanic as you can get...it gives the attackers the advantage.

  The catapult is one of the very few things that defenders have as an advantage in a siege.

  Any friendly fire mechanic would destroy WvW. Just transfer a group of 5, and you can eliminate virtually every enemy Tower and Keep. How dumb would that be?

[lioka qiao]

Defenders already have a huge advantage when defending keeps in that they can place arrow carts on walls effectively making the front of a gate a death trap.  The catapult behind the gate thing is the easiest to counter... just use your own catapults and *don't* put them in line with the gate where the defender can lob the rock over the gate and hit them.  Catapults and rams are the same cost supply wise.  If you see that a gate is defended with carts or catas, drop back and put up your own catas.  Don't just put up rams and wonder why your corpse is laying next to a pile of broken rams.

[Wotah]

lioka qiao, on 05 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Defenders already have a huge advantage when defending keeps in that they can place arrow carts on walls effectively making the front of a gate a death trap.  

Seriously?  The Southern towers are death traps for anyone trying to use a cart (even on inside lip corner).  All it takes is a few dedicated to walking around the corner and AoE'ing.  The tops of towers (at least down South in BL's) is a death trap.  It's a lot easier on NE tower, and NW tower is the same as the Southern ones.

[chuckles79]

Wotah, on 05 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Seriously?  The Southern towers are death traps for anyone trying to use a cart (even on inside lip corner).  All it takes is a few dedicated to walking around the corner and AoE'ing.  The tops of towers (at least down South in BL's) is a death trap.  It's a lot easier on NE tower, and NW tower is the same as the Southern ones.

There are plenty of safe places for carts to guard the gate in the Lake Tower, though all the ones on the catapult popular side are exposed.

[Wotah]

Yep.  They're all up top or they're cut off somewhat.  And definitely the side toward the lake is extremely bad.   It goes back to my original point Anet made a game where it is easier to defend towers by standing behind the gates (off the walls) and flinging stones at it.

[lioka qiao]

Wotah, on 05 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Seriously?  The Southern towers are death traps for anyone trying to use a cart (even on inside lip corner).  All it takes is a few dedicated to walking around the corner and AoE'ing.  The tops of towers (at least down South in BL's) is a death trap.  It's a lot easier on NE tower, and NW tower is the same as the Southern ones.

There are a few spots nestled away in a corner on the wall where an arrow cart and operator are safe but can still pummel the gate in the south towers.  In general the walls in EB are pretty safe for arrow carts (except quentin if you get a group with a ballista who knows what they're doing).  You might take a few meteor shower hits in the south borderlands towers but other than that you're fine.

You still have to contend with the catapult against the gate.  It will tear apart any rams you put up.  It gets better if the defenders put the arrow carts behind the gate too cause they can still shoot past the gate or at it.

Catapults don't have to be exclusively used on walls.  If the keep you're attacking has upgraded walls but not upgraded gate you can still use the catas on the gate.

The basic point is that the cata against the gate thing can be countered and quite easily.  Just spend 12 more silver on your siege plan, get catapults, and have the option to go through a wall if the gate is a death trap.  Save your rams for when the keep is completely undefended.