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Water Sentry: Optimized Support build for Dungeons/Fractals


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#1 DOSGAMES

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

Greetings to nerds and n00bs alike!

I love healing, I've always gravitated towards it in MMOs.  I decided to main an Elementalist because it was quite clear that they would excel in a healing and support role.

After 3 months of testing and dungeon running with my guild, I think I've settled on the best build and gear itemization.  In the passages below, I'll be outlining my build, itemization, and a guide to its use.

Build: http://tinyurl.com/cmtqxlf

Itemization:
Spoiler

Traits:
Spoiler

Attributes: (Unbuffed)

Spoiler


Now that I've outlined the numbers, it's time to interpret them.

My goal was to make a very Tough healer with decent Power that never goes into a downed-state. I think it's incredibly important to stay on your feet at all times.  Pulling Allies from a fight so they can resurrect you is a distraction and lowers the groups damage. Often, one person goes down and things spin out of control, resulting in a wipe. This build is intended to keep you and your allies alive and condition free while providing decent sustained damage. I selected skills, traits, and gear with this in mind.

My gear itemization focuses on Power, Toughness, and Healing power; with a slight sprinkling of Vitality.
I completely avoid Precision, Condition Damage, and Critical Damage. For Utility Skills, I bring Conjure Frost Bow, Arcane Shield, and Mist Form.

Frost Bow provides additional Healing Power. It also has an AOE through Ice Storm. Healing through Water Arrow and most importantly an awesome CC with Deep Freeze. Frost Bow is nice because if I've blown through all my attunements and don't have much to spam. I can Conjure a Frost Bow and remain active in the fight.

Arcane Shield and Mist Form are, very simply, 'Oh Shit' buttons. They are to keep me alive during fights or when trying to run past or skip mobs.

Elite skill is obviously Glyph of Elementals.

(Alternative skills can also be Glyph of Lesser Elemental, Signet of Earth, or Signet of Air.)

Also, I think the Sylvari makes the best Water Elementalist because they have a Racial Skill that aids in Group Healing. Healing Seed is a self heal for 7,843 and also provides regeneration to allies near it (1,182 HP over 4 seconds)

My trait selections were pretty obvious. I chose my Fire traits to increase damage. My water traits reduce cooldowns and remove conditions and my Arcana grant boons and increase the radius of my AOE attacks and heals.  Also, I avoided traiting into Air or Earth because I didn't want to waste Trait points in acquiring Critical Chance, Critical Damage, or Condition Damage.

Now that I've got the basics out of the way; I'd like to talk about gear itemization in greater detail. It took a lot of time and wasted gold/dungeon tokens before I felt like I got it right.

Guild Wars 2 has limited combinations of Attributes offered on gear. When you combine this with the Trait Trees offering Attributes as well, it can feel like you are being pulled in multiple directions.  This is especially true if you are trying to stack Healing Power. Most of the healing dungeon sets offered (Healing, Precision, Vitality) or (Healing, Vitality, Condition Damage).

To me, these seemed less than ideal. Precision is only valuable if you have a decent amount of Power and Critical Damage. It's true that with high Precision it's possible to proc conditions  (whether it be from a Sigil or Traits) but I'd only get use out of that if I had a decent Condition Damage. If I tried to mix Condition Damage, Precision, AND Healing, I'd be too spread out and too fragile.

Also, I didn't want to invest into Condition Damage because I was set on using the Staff. The staff is by far the best Support Weapon but, it has a very limited ability to spread conditions. (Earth 2 'Eruption' being the only exception). I should also point out that "A little" Condition Damage is pointless, if you want it to be effective, the coefficients on it require you to stack a punch of it.

Also, In dungeons and Fractals, being able to stay on your feet is critical. I knew I needed a good amount of Toughness or Vitality (Or a combination of both).  As a healer who has several regeneration skills, I knew toughness would be better of the two.

The Cleric Set seemed like the obvious choice.  It's worked out great but, I felt like a full Cleric Set with Cleric Gems left me with too little HP.  I knew I needed more Vitality, I could either do this by ditching my Runes of the Monk for Runes that offer more Vitality or find another solution.

I came to the strange conclusion that Crests of the Solider were actually my best option over other Gems. Even though they have less stats, they are the only Upgrade Component that offers both Power, Toughness, and Vitality. I'm still playing around with different Gem/Rune combinations and would appreciate any suggestions!

That being said this build has been working out great in Fractals and Dungeons and I encourage you to check it out!

Edited by DOSGAMES, 22 November 2012 - 08:59 AM.


#2 Senatic

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

If you want to heal go guardian, Ele is really bad it in comparison.

Guardian
  • 3-4k heals on "Empower"
  • 2,5k heal on "Virtue of Resolve"
  • 2k heal on "Orb of Light"
  • 2k regen on Hold the Line"
  • 3k heal on "Sanctuary"
  • spammable 1,8k aoe heal on "Heal Area" from "Tome of Courage"
  • full health pool heal on "Light of Deliverance
  • inzane burst heal on bow of truth. (made even better with the trait "Improved Spirit Weapon Duration" in the virtues line.
Most of these have decent CD's (elite obviously exception). And this is not even mentioning the supporting done through might stacking, protection buffs, aegis, adding burning to allies attacks, retaliation, abillity to control combat with bubbles/projectile reflection and so on and so on. You could work even more heals in to the build if you like with things like mace/shield.

In this regard Ele just comes out incredibly short, you have what max 2-3 skills that provide healing?

Scepter dagger gives you
  • "Tidal Wave" (About a 2k heal on a 40 second cooldown)

  • "Trident" (Around 2k heal on 20 sec CD).
Dagger/Dagger gives you
  • "Tidal Wave" (About a 2k heal on a 40 second cooldown)
  • "Cone of Cold", about 2k heal on 10 sec cd (I'd consider this one of the stronger healing abilities for the class)
Staff gives you
  • "Healing Rain", around 3k regeneration (45 second cooldown)
  • "Geyser", around 3k heal in a very small aoe.
Racial gives you
  • "Healing Seed" is hardly worth even taking with a CD on 45 seconds and a minimal amount of regeneration it is by far the most sub optimal self heal you can take as a Elementalist.
Do yourself and your group a favor, if you're insistent on healing roll a guardian, else play the Ele in a different way. Playing it as a healer is a sub optimal way to play the class and you will never be as good at it as a guardian.

In my personal opinion having played both classes and tried healing on both of them, the ele just falls so far behind it's a waste of time.

Edited by Senatic, 22 November 2012 - 09:30 AM.


#3 DOSGAMES

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:35 AM

View PostSenatic, on 22 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

If you want to heal go guardian, Ele is really bad it in comparison.

Do yourself and your group a favor, if you're insistent on healing roll a guardian, else play the Ele in a different way. Playing it as a healer is a sub optimal way to play the class and you will never be as good at it as a guardian.

I'd have to disagree I suppose. It's also hard to compare since we are a back-line ranged caster. Guardian is melee and their staff skills have short range.

You also forgot to reduce the cooldowns based on traits and completely missed one of the staff healing skills. You also forgot about Soothing Mists which is an inherent AOE regeneration based on Attunement swap. You also forgot about our Water fields. You also forgot our AOE heal when swapping to Water Attunement. Are you sure you've healed with an Elementalist?

My Geyser skill, which has a 17 second cooldown has a AOE heal that ticks for 1,220 three times (Roughly 3,800). My Water Blast has 0s cooldown, is spammable, and AOE heals for 502 HP around enemy target (Healing all melee characters). I have Healing Rain with 38 second cooldown which applies Regen for about 4k. I heal for 2.2k when I swap to Water (8sec cooldown).

Along with that I have Soothing Mists. I remove a condition upon granting Regeneration to myself or allies. I provide Boons to myself and all allies.

This is the Elementalist forum. I'd prefer we discuss the build on it's own merits and not debate who's the better healing profession. It would also help if you had experience with the class. I don't know anything about Guardians, that's why I don't post there.

Edited by DOSGAMES, 22 November 2012 - 02:31 PM.


#4 Nabuko Darayon

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:37 AM

LOL @ Ele's being bad at Healing.

None of my teammates had any problems with my healing AND support (since ELes change attunement you can constantly grant them regen, prot, swift and might)
Definitely go Ele.
Eles Staff is the choice. People are forgeting that we lay down Water Fields and many people have some sort of combo finishersso it acctually adds more healing.
I go full Cleric's with Sapphire jewelry and 0/10/0/30/30. Basically just attuning to water you're giving aoe heal (about 2k+)l, dodging gives aoe heal (2k+), Healing Rain not only heals but also removes conditions (Even with water trait), and geysir is just a good bonus.
Evenw ith traited you can still add some healing 200 per second I think with Lingering Bonus even when you change to other attunements
You can even add Arcane Blast to use it under HR/Geysir for extra heals, plus you can focus on dps with fire/earth when your teammates don't need you. And you're very mobile while doing so.
Have ranger on team?Cast static field for mass vulnerabity to the boss.
Use Air 2 to blind, 3 to push a foe away, 4 for running

There are so many things you can do once you learned how to do it. I've barely seen a Guardian who can do the job correctly so no offense but Ele's healing doesn't suck (talking from my experience)

Edited by Nabuko Darayon, 22 November 2012 - 09:39 AM.


#5 Senatic

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:44 AM

View PostDOSGAMES, on 22 November 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'd have to disagree I suppose. It's also hard to compare since we are a back-line ranged caster. Guardian is melee and their staff skills have short range.

You also forgot to reduce the cooldowns based on traits and completely missed one of the staff healing skills. You also forgot about Soothing Mists which is an inherent AOE regeneration based on Attunement swap. You also forgot about our Water fields. Are you sure you've healed with an Elementalist?

My Geyser skill, which has a 17 second cooldown has a AOE heal that ticks for 1,160 three times (Roughly 5,500). My Water Blast has 0s cooldown, is spammable, and AOE heals for 502 HP around enemy target (Healing all melee characters). I have Healing Rain with 38 second cooldown which applies Regen for about 4k.

Along with that I have Soothing Mists. I remove a condition upon granting Regeneration to myself or allies. I provide Boons to myself and all allies.

This is the Elementalist forum. I'd prefer we discuss the build on it's own merits and not debate who's the better healing profession. It would also help if you had experience with the class. I don't know anything about Guardians, that's why I don't post there.

I forgot nothing. I choose not to include the cooldown reductions because it is a minimal change that in the end matters little.

I choose not to include Water blast just as I choose not to include the Guardians "Virtue of Resolve" regeneration. I prioritized the big heals and made a comparison between those. Also water blast is only useful for a portion of your team as it heals around the area you hit, which makes it a bit worthless in comparison to most guardian heals that ALWAYS aoe's around you allowing you to heal the entire team rather then 2 members of it.

I choose not to include Soothing Mists just as I choose not to include the guardians Battle presence. Because they are both traits, I was looking purely at the skills and the raw capability for healing in which case the guardian outshines the Ele so much it's sad.

I see you took offense to my opinion, but frankly if you don't care to be critiqued you shouldn't be posting build discussions on a forum. By posting we are both knowingly opening ourselves up to being wrong. Yes this is an Elementalist forum, that doesn't mean we should completely ignore all other professions and just talk about ourselves as if no other profession exists, with no regard for what the most efficient way is. That would be incredibly ignorant and naive. That said I'm not saying having a discussion on the Ele's healing capabilities is a bad thing, but you need to be open for the harsh truth and not try to ignore it because you don't wanna hear it.

Even if I give you the things you listed and add them to the comparison you're still coming up short 20-30 THOUSAND in heals over 20 seconds. You do understand that Tome of courage has a 20 second duration, with a 2k AOE heal that can be used 14 times. 14 times(UN TRAITED, you could trait it to last even longer), that's 28,000 in AOE healing over 15 seconds. With the Guardian you have more heals then you can actually use before recharge is done. On the ele you'll be spamming auto attack and swapping attunements desperately to keep the healing going, and even then it's at a incredibly minimal rate of regeneration that pales in comparison. Seeing an Ele trying to fulfill a heal role for me is like seeing a child trying to drive a car, sure you might be able to get out of the drive way. That doesn't mean you're fit to go cruising down the highway.

Quote

None of my teammates had any problems with my healing
Of course they don't, most people don't even notice when you heal them. And even if they do, with a great team you don't actually need a healer. It helps, but it's not a requirement. Likewise most people have no idea what the optimal way to support is.

With this being said I won't persist anymore, I've given you my opinion on the topic. Take it and do with it what you please.

Edited by Senatic, 22 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.


#6 DOSGAMES

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostSenatic, on 22 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

With this being said I won't persist anymore, I've given you my opinion on the topic. Take it and do with it what you please.

I understand your opinion. Guardians rule all and Elementalist are trash in comparison.

I don't know much about Guardians, I'll talk to the 2 Guardians in my Fractal group and get their opinion.  I really don't buy your 20k to 30k in 20 seconds though. (Doesn't the full heal self-root you?)

Both Guardians in our group offer some support but, they are always referring to me as the healer and they were the ones who encouraged me to invest more into Healing Power. If Elementalist was so bad I wonder why our Guardians didn't pick the full support role?

That's all I say about it. A Guardian Vs Elementalist thread this is not. It's cluttering up my post. If you'd like to have a Guardian Vs Elementalist discussion, create a thread for it.

Edited by DOSGAMES, 22 November 2012 - 11:05 AM.


#7 MisfitAndy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

View PostSenatic, on 22 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

If you want to heal go guardian, Ele is really bad it in comparison.


Elementalists are not bad at healing.  Just switching to water attunement and you throw a regen onto anybody who is near you, not to mention the AOE heal that others have brought up.  Oh, and every time  you switch attunement you are throwing boons around.  Did I mention that you will be switching attunements A LOT?  So that is, at the very least, regeneration, a free might stack, protection, and swiftness.

Elementalists also have great support in the form of sharing auras.  You can give the people you are near nearly constant fury and swiftness, and protection if you choose (I don't find it worth the points in earth)

#8 MisfitAndy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:11 AM

To the OP:  More on topic, I find that your lack in vitality would be a pain for me.  I've found having a larger health pool to be infinitely more helpful than more toughness, even as a healer.  Your experience may be different, though.

Also, I have heard that the co-efficients for healing power aren't that great, so I tend to invest my gear into DPS/vitality and I trait for heals and support.  I find that it is really all you need, in most cases, to be a decent healer and also contribute meaningfully to your team.

The rest looks good.  I trait 0/10/0/30/30 currently, but I might be swapping 10 points in arcane to 10 points in earth because I use auramancy support.  I'm not sure if you've tried that out, but it is quite fun, and allows you to go full bore with dagger/dagger and still be useful as a support class.

#9 DOSGAMES

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostMisfitAndy, on 22 November 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Also, I have heard that the co-efficients for healing power aren't that great, so I tend to invest my gear into DPS/vitality and I trait for heals and support.  I find that it is really all you need, in most cases, to be a decent healer and also contribute meaningfully to your team.

They aren't that great but, they aren't that bad either. Just to compare, with 0 Healing Power my Geyser ticked for 808 and with my current Healing Power, it ticks for 1220. So roughly a 50% increase in healing.

I agree with you that you don't necessarily have to Gear into Healing Power for your healing to be worthwhile. I guess I was just faced with a choice, should I invest into Precision, Critical Damage, or Condition Damage and increase my damage by a percentage, or should I do it for Healing instead.

Regarding my Vitality, with 14.7k health and 1700 Toughness, I feel really Tanky. I started running Dungeons with my AC Exotics (Precision, Vitality, Healing Power) and I felt much squishier with 18k HP and average to lower toughness.

Edited by DOSGAMES, 22 November 2012 - 11:30 AM.


#10 Featherman

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:31 PM

Eles and Guardians are different flavors of healing, from my experience with them. Guardians have higher potential healing but they need to dedicate precious utility slots and possibly one trait. Eles are have less healing and more constant condition removal, but their healing is based a few very important traits traits. I also find that Eles can be much more mobile while supporting.

I've played my D/D ele to level 12 of Fractals and I've found that just cleric jewels suffice in keeping melee party members alive. I suggest using Power/Toughness/Vit armor and weapons with cleric jewels so you can have both sufficiently high healing power and resistance to spike damage.

#11 Lysand

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:33 AM

I run a very similar build, but I take 20 in air because I personally prefer the glyph support - being able to pull out water elementals for the frost field and thus extra chills can be very handy in kiting unstoppable champions, or kiting, period, and the bonus heals from the bigger one doesn't hurt either.

#12 Cruzzi

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:56 AM

I honestly have to mostly agree with Senatic, though I haven't really looked into Guardian heals that much. I tend to play three classes, Ele, Warr and Engineer, and honestly speaking the elementalist heals the LEAST of this trio with or without healing gear. To go into a bit more detail:

Warrior shouts are ~1100 heal base with 0.8 heal power scaling with a large radius, instant, usable while cced 20 sec cooldown and provide good effects on their own. Thanks to the scaling it is easy to surpass ele healing potential. Or if nobody else is providing regeneration in your party, you can take banner regen for 100% uptime regen on everyone in the group along with stat bonuses and some freedom on utility slots, but shouts do heal more overtime especially with heal power and generally someone else could also provide atleast some regeneration. The issue with this is obviously the need to sacrifice your utility slots for the healing, but for the most part there is very little I'd rather run in dungeons anyway than For Great Justice and Shake it Off so that only leaves On my Mark as a "forced" choice.

Engineer: Low base heals much like ele, but the cooldowns are very short and come with other perks. Bombs scale real badly (0.1 scaling) with healing power (same as water blast) and only heal for 190-ish base, but they have a larger radius and more importantly they can be laid anywhere and actually hit hard, plus can provide some other utility. Elixir Gun will provide a healing field (light combo) roughly equal to geyser every 10 seconds around you with a (level 10) trait and another targetable one on 20 sec cooldown, plus removes conditions, somewhat better scaling on healing power than bombs. Some additional minor renegeration bonuses from toolkit, but those don't count much for much.

Elementalist: Low base heals, long cooldowns, somewhat hard to target healing abilities, no options to take healing in utility slots (except water elemental which is really unreliable). Many classes largely lack healing without traits, Ele doesn't, but neither does Ele actually gain any real healing ability from traits while others do.

#13 Aetou

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:30 AM

View PostDOSGAMES, on 22 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Also, I didn't want to invest into Condition Damage because I was set on using the Staff. The staff is by far the best Support Weapon but, it has a very limited ability to spread conditions. (Earth 2 'Eruption' being the only exception). I should also point out that "A little" Condition Damage is pointless, if you want it to be effective, the coefficients on it require you to stack a punch of it.

This severely undermines your credibility.  Not only can Staff apply pretty much the most bleeds on a single target within a set period out of all our weapons it can apply those stacks onto 4-6 targets just as easily.  Yes, you rely heavily on Eruption to do the bleeds but there is nothing wrong with that - it frees up your other skills to apply other conditions (like Weakness, Chilled, Vulnerability and Burning.)  As others have said, raw healing isn't really the Ele's strength (although Water 1 puts out a LOT of healing when you need to) so you need to go for a fuller, Support build.  The defensive Conditions are a key part of that, so gearing for condition damage and increased condition duration is so much better than using those Crests.  You can have permanent weakness on a boss - which means a 25% reduction in their damage.  That's huge and shouldn't be neglected just to sit in fire and throw a few fireballs (which without the investment in Pre/CritD will be rather lame) - so spec Earth/Water/Arcane and play to the classes' strengths if you want to go support.

#14 Featherman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostCruzzi, on 23 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I honestly have to mostly agree with Senatic, though I haven't really looked into Guardian heals that much. I tend to play three classes, Ele, Warr and Engineer, and honestly speaking the elementalist heals the LEAST of this trio with or without healing gear. To go into a bit more detail:

Warrior shouts are ~1100 heal base with 0.8 heal power scaling with a large radius, instant, usable while cced 20 sec cooldown and provide good effects on their own. Thanks to the scaling it is easy to surpass ele healing potential. Or if nobody else is providing regeneration in your party, you can take banner regen for 100% uptime regen on everyone in the group along with stat bonuses and some freedom on utility slots, but shouts do heal more overtime especially with heal power and generally someone else could also provide atleast some regeneration. The issue with this is obviously the need to sacrifice your utility slots for the healing, but for the most part there is very little I'd rather run in dungeons anyway than For Great Justice and Shake it Off so that only leaves On my Mark as a "forced" choice.

Engineer: Low base heals much like ele, but the cooldowns are very short and come with other perks. Bombs scale real badly (0.1 scaling) with healing power (same as water blast) and only heal for 190-ish base, but they have a larger radius and more importantly they can be laid anywhere and actually hit hard, plus can provide some other utility. Elixir Gun will provide a healing field (light combo) roughly equal to geyser every 10 seconds around you with a (level 10) trait and another targetable one on 20 sec cooldown, plus removes conditions, somewhat better scaling on healing power than bombs. Some additional minor renegeration bonuses from toolkit, but those don't count much for much.

Elementalist: Low base heals, long cooldowns, somewhat hard to target healing abilities, no options to take healing in utility slots (except water elemental which is really unreliable). Many classes largely lack healing without traits, Ele doesn't, but neither does Ele actually gain any real healing ability from traits while others do.

Engineer's Super elixir actually got a stealth buff. It now heals 380 per pulse base and scales very, very well with healing power (400-ish base power increases the pulses to 430). However, I'm certain this is a bug because it's way too good now. I can literally sit in 2 super elixirs (1 from kit refinement) and tank bosses while using a DPS build.

You're incorrect about ele's not gaining healing ability from traits. For ele's their best heals come from healing ripple, cleansing wave, evasive arcana, and soothing mist all of which are obtained through traits and do no take up utility slots. Ripple and cleansing wave (Evasive arcana) have a base of ~1300, scale 1:1 with healing power, and can be used very frequently. Their biggest caveat is the small PBAoE range. Additionally, with our many sources of regen, Healing rain works best as a condition remover while Geyser's terrible AoE makes it only useful when used with Eruption.

Also, staff water 1 is terrible and should not be spoken highly of in any situation.

Edited by Featherman, 23 November 2012 - 02:54 PM.


#15 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

Just wow.  Someone can not take valid criticism without being butthurt.

When someone puts forth criticisms and the OP attacks them with sarcasm and ridicule instead of valid arguements, the debate is won by the more mature side.  My opinion.

#16 Cruzzi

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 23 November 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

You're incorrect about ele's not gaining healing ability from traits. For ele's their best heals come from healing ripple, cleansing wave, evasive arcana, and soothing mist all of which are obtained through traits and do no take up utility slots. Ripple and cleansing wave (Evasive arcana) have a base of ~1300, scale 1:1 with healing power, and can be used very frequently. Their biggest caveat is the small PBAoE range. Additionally, with our many sources of regen, Healing rain works best as a condition remover while Geyser's terrible AoE makes it only useful when used with Eruption.

Also, staff water 1 is terrible and should not be spoken highly of in any situation.

I wasn't really trying to claim ele didn't get any healing from traits, but compared to warriors (who have no healing before traits) or engineers (who have fairly little healing capability before traits) the ele traits provide comparatively very little benefit and pushing water to 15 already gives you 95% of those benefits anyway. Similarly even guardians can get more healing abilities (like symbols) through traits than eles can even though they start off with a ton already.

Healing ripple is problematic because of the short range and need to swap attunements closeby. This is an even bigger issue with the dodge wave, especially in the new content where damage numbers fast get to the point that a single hit kills. You don't really have time to aim your dodges at that point.

#17 Featherman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:01 PM

View PostCruzzi, on 23 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

I wasn't really trying to claim ele didn't get any healing from traits, but compared to warriors (who have no healing before traits) or engineers (who have fairly little healing capability before traits) the ele traits provide comparatively very little benefit and pushing water to 15 already gives you 95% of those benefits anyway. Similarly even guardians can get more healing abilities (like symbols) through traits than eles can even though they start off with a ton already.

Healing ripple is problematic because of the short range and need to swap attunements closeby. This is an even bigger issue with the dodge wave, especially in the new content where damage numbers fast get to the point that a single hit kills. You don't really have time to aim your dodges at that point.

I'd had to disagree with that. Although good, healing warriors only take 2 shouts realistically and they have far longer cooldown than the Elementalists' ripple and cleansing wave as well as being weaker. Guardian's traited heals are weak (but constant), have even less range than the elementalists, and are more focused towards keeping the guardian alive rather than allies due symbol positioning and range

Standard healing builds which are usually either x/x/x/30/30 or x/x/x/30/20 or any other similar combination already emphasize the constant swapping of attunements for bonuses. Positioning for both healing ripple and evasive arcana is a matter of practice even in dungeons as hectic as fractals.

#18 Nonlinear

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

Staff is the superior condition weapon, be it either burning (fire 3 + signet + 3 second of burning trait) or bleed (earth).

The bottom line is that ele healing scales poorly and you're better off investing those stats into something else.  

IIRC ele only have two heal that gets 100% healing and it is when you attune to water or dodge in water (every ten seconds via EA).  Only 25% on geyser, 20% on splash, I could get about 500 splash healing on Water 1 (this is with 1400 healing).  It's okay if you're in a group with a lot of melee but again imo you're better of investing in better scaling stats like Power (where you the most bang for your buck as any class) before healing (where you get the least).  Power effects almost everything, healing only effects your heals otherwise it is like 1000 stat points that do nothing.  Soothing mists is a joke.

I started my ele as support/heal.  I have a set with 1400 healing.  I use it for wvw (coupled with condition removal and cantrips) but find it very underwhelming in dungeons and prefer max damage w/ high endurance.

Shout warriors are more efficient healer AND they can remove two conditions per shout with runes, grant fury, etc.

From my experience Ele strength is laying down fields for others to finish and putting out heavy aoe.

Edited by Nonlinear, 23 November 2012 - 04:26 PM.


#19 jonasklk

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

Ah How i love to see support builds, there is just something about them that makes them much more interesting in my opinion :)

#20 Nonlinear

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:10 PM

I just went to the mists and tested some things on this build against golems.

With these stats (cleric amulet + gem and 6x divinity runes):

Power: 1820 (Attack 2931)
Precision 976 (base w/o runes, runes make it 7% crit, 12% Crit Damage)
Toughness: 1620
Vitality: 1276

crit and crit damage will increase power scaling and damage by 43% or so over the long run, long run damage is about 2581.

The spec uses 20 points in fire to increase fire damage so I used fire 1 as a test.  Fireballs hit heavy golem for about 625-725, average around 680, crits were about ~1050-1150 7% of the time.  It took about 26 seconds to kill a golem using fireball alone.  

----

Then I changed to a berserker amulet and a pure dps spec (30 fire/30 air) with a sigil of fire in the staff.

2199 power (3168 attack)
1920 precision (52% crit, 62% critical damage)
976 toughness (base)
1305 vitality

crit and crit damage will increase power scaling and increase long run damage by 58%, long run damage is 3479, about 35% more than the other loadout.

Started with no stacks of might (from fire 30).  Fireball damage ~800-1000, crit damage ~1800-2000.  Could get 2800 < 20% off what seemed like a sigil proc but could have been a fireball, 2400-2700 seems to be the norm.  4th hit on fiery greatsword 1 can crit anywhere from 3.5k to 5k.  In dungeons I get over 3k fireball and arcane blast crits with might, vuln, etc.  Takes about 17 seconds to kill a golem, 11 seconds with fiery great sword.

None of this takes into account AOE damage, Arcane Blast, crit damage bonus from arcane skills, etc. which will overwhelmingly prefer the power/crit DPS build coupled with AOE fire sigil.

So the power difference means it takes you about 35% or so more time to do equivalent damage then if you went pure glass cannon.  There are compromises in between but I think you would be better off focusing on power because is scales better and is more efficient, faster killing leads to faster clearing, less chance for something, less healing, using fewer CDs (e.g. elemental), etc.

Edited by Nonlinear, 23 November 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#21 DOSGAMES

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostTGIFrisbie, on 23 November 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Just wow.  Someone can not take valid criticism without being butthurt.

When someone puts forth criticisms and the OP attacks them with sarcasm and ridicule instead of valid arguements, the debate is won by the more mature side.  My opinion.

I was only insulted by posts by Senatic, which basically stated "Your profession is bad at healing, you need to re-roll." It was off topic and doesn't contribute to the discussion.

View PostAetou, on 23 November 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

This severely undermines your credibility.  Not only can Staff apply pretty much the most bleeds on a single target within a set period out of all our weapons it can apply those stacks onto 4-6 targets just as easily.  Yes, you rely heavily on Eruption to do the bleeds but there is nothing wrong with that - it frees up your other skills to apply other conditions (like Weakness, Chilled, Vulnerability and Burning.)  As others have said, raw healing isn't really the Ele's strength (although Water 1 puts out a LOT of healing when you need to) so you need to go for a fuller, Support build.  The defensive Conditions are a key part of that, so gearing for condition damage and increased condition duration is so much better than using those Crests.  You can have permanent weakness on a boss - which means a 25% reduction in their damage.  That's huge and shouldn't be neglected just to sit in fire and throw a few fireballs (which without the investment in Pre/CritD will be rather lame) - so spec Earth/Water/Arcane and play to the classes' strengths if you want to go support.

I definately agree that bleeds from Eruption and Buring from Fire skills do provide a good source of conditions.  Other posters have pointed out that conditions can be used effectively while also providing support.  I wish there was a "Recount" feature so that we could get more detailed numbers.

I should also note that one shouldn't look at the build in a vaccum, especially when considering conditions. Unlike raw damage, conditions can overlap with other party members. Often, In my team composistion we have other professions that provide Weakness, Bleeding, Burning, ETC.

I'm not staying conditions don't have their place, but the quality of a build can't stand alone. One must also consider how it interacts with other party members.

Thanks for the on topic comments and opinions

#22 DOSGAMES

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

Also, I saw a lot of people have mentioned Evasive Arcana. Im sure many know that it has recently been nerfed and is no longer a combo finisher. I actually didn't like it even before the nerf, at least in dungeons and fractals. I felt like I was compelled to dodge for the sake of healing, then end up Endurance starved. Perhaps it's more viable if I had a better way of gaining vigor.

#23 Featherman

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

View PostDOSGAMES, on 24 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Also, I saw a lot of people have mentioned Evasive Arcana. Im sure many know that it has recently been nerfed and is no longer a combo finisher. I actually didn't like it even before the nerf, at least in dungeons and fractals. I felt like I was compelled to dodge for the sake of healing, then end up Endurance starved. Perhaps it's more viable if I had a better way of gaining vigor.
Renewing stamina comes from the same trait like, but you'd be giving up blasting staff. It's more of a scepter or d/d skill. The amount of vigor you get from it is really high though.

There's also soothing distruption to consider if you're running a cantrip-heavy build.

Edited by Featherman, 24 November 2012 - 12:03 AM.


#24 DOSGAMES

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 24 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:


Renewing stamina comes from the same trait like, but you'd be giving up blasting staff. It's more of a scepter or d/d skill. The amount of vigor you get from it is really high though.

There's also soothing distruption to consider if you're running a cantrip-heavy build.

For sure, I'll have to look into Cantrips and Soothing disruption. I cant see me doing away with Blasting Staff though. The tooltip on Blasting Staff is incorrect. It says it only effects Attacks but, it increases the size of heals as well. Blasting staff makes Geyser so much better, the skill is tough to master and Blasting staff makes it more forgiving.

Edited by DOSGAMES, 24 November 2012 - 12:27 AM.


#25 FrancisCrawford

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 24 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Renewing stamina

His build has a very low crit rate.

#26 Isms

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:34 PM

Elementalists are some of the better healers, but not because of their direct healing skills, but because of their water fields. Learn to communicate with your group when you drop water fields on them so they can finisher them and get the full potential of those fields. This means you shouldn't be investing in healing power, since yours alone doesn't scale the combos. If you have a thief with you, just tell him when you drop fields and he can cluster bomb your group to full.

#27 CepaCepa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

View PostTGIFrisbie, on 23 November 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Just wow.  Someone can not take valid criticism without being butthurt.

When someone puts forth criticisms and the OP attacks them with sarcasm and ridicule instead of valid arguements, the debate is won by the more mature side.  My opinion.

Well, read again and take a look at where the "sarcasm and ridicule" started. :) Yes, I believe the debate is won by the more mature side, but which side is more mature stands to be proven.

I'm not taking side, just saying, as a fellow spectator I'm not seeing what you're seeing, it's not like an argument can start from thin air. Attacking just one side doesn't make sense.

Besides, often in arguments the best things come out, as someone reading the post it's more drama to enjoy, it's more information being squeezed out of both sides, it's only profit for the masses. :)

Edited by CepaCepa, 26 November 2012 - 09:06 PM.


#28 Jabtangs

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

Who's gonna do the AOE damaging when the ele goes full support tho =/

Good post, but I'd rather have 20 points in fire to do at least some damage

#29 DOSGAMES

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

View PostJabtangs, on 26 November 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Who's gonna do the AOE damaging when the ele goes full support tho =/

Good post, but I'd rather have 20 points in fire to do at least some damage

Thanks!
I do go 20 into Fire and by also stripping away all Condition Damage, Critcal Chance, and Critical Damage I am able to get a decent amount of Power for being so invested into Toughness and Healing Power. Ice Bow adds some good AOE when I need it.

#30 Aetou

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:59 AM

View PostJabtangs, on 26 November 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Who's gonna do the AOE damaging when the ele goes full support tho =/

Good post, but I'd rather have 20 points in fire to do at least some damage

And this is why Staff Condition-Support is perfect.  10k+ Eruptions with a massive AOE being dropped every 7s...




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