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Will you be annoyed if your Warrior group member downed 3-5 times in a dungeon?


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#1 tmxkn1

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:24 AM

Last night, I did a COF path 1 as a semi-glass cannon warrior: roughly 2600 armor + 18000 HP in the dungeon. I was downed for about 5 times throughout the run because of some carelessness and insistence on finishing the hundred blades.

All I thought was I can't loose the 100 blades' last two hits, which deal huge amount of damage, (maybe) over 15 times than normal sword swings. I thought finishing the last two hits would be worth even if I downed and have someone to heal me up. Maybe this idea wasn't so wise.

I was downed because of 100 blades twice and my colleagues seemed to be annoyed. I gave up finishing 100 blades in the rest of the run but was downed because of some carelessness. I don't know if it was my carelessness or it was my semi-glasscannon build. I was targeted and hit by the boss, nearly in downed state (about 2000hp left, one hit and down), I dodged out for the next two hits from boss, and expecting any healing because the only healing skill I have is in its 25s CD, but only the ranger in my group place a ground healing, both guardian and ele did nothing. The boss targeted me with kind of fire, I downed very soon. OK, they started to laugh at me and I chose not answering.

I could have swapped to rifle that did less than half of output comparing to a greatsword. I could have put survival slot skills rather than frenzy and for great justice. I could have kept myself from being targeted by boss. I will do all that with my supportive ele and ranger, but as a warrior, I chose to fight in melee range, do as much output as I can and finish the run as fast as possible.

Do you really wish to see a warrior in easy dungeon having a supportive build or having 3200 armor with survival slot skills while guardian and ele are doing output?

I need your opinions. If you don't like a warrior like me, I would never use warrior for dungeon without my friends any more.

Edited by tmxkn1, 22 November 2012 - 10:45 AM.


#2 WandererOA

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:40 AM

I play as full defense/support guardian and after I get the attention of the boss (there is no aggro in gw2 but I usually get the bosses to attack me) I want at my side a warrior doing  as much damage as posible while I keep him alive with healing and protection boons.

#3 lmaonade

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

FRENZY

that's your problem, 4 seconds of double action speed on a 60 second cooldown makes little to no difference in the long run against a dungeon boss, not only are you putting yourself in more danger, you are increasing your total damage output by very little with the skill, Frenzy has little place in PvE, swap it out for some condition removal or a signet

and I can sense the passive aggressiveness in your post, but don't limit yourself to just all damage or all tank, I run a semi of both build, I end up with 2.6k armor, 23k hp, 3.1k attack, 37% crit chance, and 71% crit damage, without any buffs, my hundred blades does up to 16-19k depending on vulnerability stacks, and best of all I don't die easily, I get passive healing with adrenal healing minor trait, and defy pain at 25% with the grandmaster trait

Edited by lmaonade, 22 November 2012 - 10:47 AM.


#4 Chibii

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

shout healing warriors in dungeons are the best thing ever.

#5 tmxkn1

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostWandererOA, on 22 November 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I play as full defense/support guardian and after I get the attention of the boss (there is no aggro in gw2 but I usually get the bosses to attack me) I want at my side a warrior doing  as much damage as posible while I keep him alive with healing and protection boons.

Thank you. I have a full defense and healing guardian friend and a full healing ele friend, so I come with this build. They want exactly the samething as you do.


View Postlmaonade, on 22 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

FRENZY

that's your problem, 4 seconds of double action speed on a 60 second cooldown makes little to no difference in the long run against a dungeon boss, not only are you putting yourself in more danger, you are increasing your total damage output by very little with the skill, Frenzy has little place in PvE, swap it out for some condition removal or a signet

and I can sense the passive aggressiveness in your post, but don't limit yourself to just all damage or all tank, I run a semi of both build, I end up with 2.6k armor, 23k hp, 3.1k attack, 37% crit chance, and 71% crit damage, without any buffs, my hundred blades does up to 16-19k depending on vulnerability stacks, and best of all I don't die easily, I get passive healing with adrenal healing minor trait, and defy pain at 25% with the grandmaster trait

That is a good point. Frenzy is good for killing minions, but for boss, yes, limited. I will switch to a banner or a shout for normal bosses. For some bosses which are nearly impossible for melee attach, I would still like to keep frenzy, cause for those bosses, I still can have a over 4s burst.

I was thinking about change to that build, but since I still play a lot with my friends who have supportive and healing builds, I decided not to change. Passive healing in trait is a great one, but I just can't give up the rest for damage output.

Have you tried food such as omnomberry pie - 66% chance to steal hp on critical + 70 precision. With GS, maybe not so good?

View PostChibii, on 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

shout healing warriors in dungeons are the best thing ever.
But that means halve the damage output? I can do better healing with an elementalist or a guardian.

#6 turbo234

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostChibii, on 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

shout healing warriors in dungeons are the best thing ever.

shout guardians do it better

honestly, I have no problem with a party member going down a few times during a run. It happens, we res and move on. It's not a big deal.

#7 lmaonade

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

View Postturbo234, on 22 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

shout guardians do it better

honestly, I have no problem with a party member going down a few times during a run. It happens, we res and move on. It's not a big deal.

to be fair, shout guardians don't directly heal, that's something exclusive to warrior shouts, however, they provide much better boons (with the exception of fury) and are just generally amazing.

#8 Xsiriss

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

Yes I would, it displays a lack of ability to adapt from 'lolomg GS is so cool!11' open world to actually having to be a bit careful and think about your loadout. Have a look at thus http://www.guildwars...-dungeon-build/, should help clear some things up and make it painfully clear that GS doesn't belong in dungeons.

#9 Ojikes

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:35 AM

Why even bother to go almost full glass cannon for dungeons? I played with a warrior yesterday that got downed alot more then i did in FoTM and i play a melee thief. :P Im not that tanky either but apparently i know how to dodge instead of getting downed.
I personally rather see a rifle warrior in dungeons if he cant dodge then a GS warrior that doesnt dodge.

You get downed = need help getting up so more dps from other people are lost.

#10 Celestine Grey

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:41 AM

That's a touch decision. It depends on the party. My friend I play most of my dungeons with is a full on Glass Cannon. But I'm a support Guardian so I look after him. GW2 is meant to be a game of give and take. You give your huge DPS and take healing.

I would rather you were DPSing myself but unless you have someone willing to keep you alive I'd switch back to ranged attack and play it safe.

Ultimatly it depends on the party you are in. If you are playing with rangers and eles don't expect any healing.

#11 tmxkn1

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostXsiriss, on 22 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yes I would, it displays a lack of ability to adapt from 'lolomg GS is so cool!11' open world to actually having to be a bit careful and think about your loadout. Have a look at thus http://www.guildwars...-dungeon-build/, should help clear some things up and make it painfully clear that GS doesn't belong in dungeons.

I agree with you that GS is no good without any supportive member, GS is not always the first choice for warriors in dungeon.

I was looking at your post an hour ago. That is a fairly nice piece of work. I actually tried the combination of greatsword + main-hand axe and off-hand mace. However, I notice greatsword is dealing more than axe and mace, since the might can easily go up to 25 if there are two foes, and 100 blades can actually taking advantage from frenzy even when frenzy is no longer on your state bar (just press 2 when frenzy's remaining time is 0, 100 blades still will cast 2 times faster).

The downside to have a greatsword build in dungeon is lack of mobilities. Plus my all offensive traits, I need supportive member to heal me. A full glass cannon warrior has just over 2100 armor and 18000 hp and even the other members are all supportive members, it won't be enough. Mine has 2750 armor with nearly 19000 hp, would be enough if there are two supportive members.

I may consider asking if any member has supportive skill before I say ready to go.

Thanks for your idea.


View PostOjikes, on 22 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Why even bother to go almost full glass cannon for dungeons? I played with a warrior yesterday that got downed alot more then i did in FoTM and i play a melee thief. :P Im not that tanky either but apparently i know how to dodge instead of getting downed.
I personally rather see a rifle warrior in dungeons if he cant dodge then a GS warrior that doesnt dodge.

You get downed = need help getting up so more dps from other people are lost.

I'm not having a full glass cannon. If you know what the difference on output is between GS and rifle is giving out, you may not want to see a full-time rifle warrior. I agree, a glass cannon warrior is no good in dungeon. A greatsword warrior needs to know all the bosses and mobs they are going to deal with and think about timing. If he can't do that, he's better use a ranged weapon and learn the mobs. If I don't dodge at all in that dungeon, I could have downed over 20 times....

But next time I will probably give up using warrior in dungeon if there is no supportive members.

Thanks for your idea.

#12 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

3-5 times downed? That's honestly not that bad. I can understand if you died 3-5 times that it would've been just a tad annoying, but nothing worse than something you can shrug off, but getting annoyed at a few downs is just plain silly.

But yeah, there are some people out there who just can't take the slightest mistakes. Luckily, at least in my experience, karma tends to be a bitch on them :P

#13 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

View Posttmxkn1, on 22 November 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

But that means halve the damage output? I can do better healing with an elementalist or a guardian.

I implore you to prove it, and then compare it with this: http://www.guildwars...rical-analysis/ Since I get tired of seeing nonchalant declarations like this with zero proof to support them.

Anyway, in general response to the OP. On the one hand, you should make sure you survive, to paraphrase that old saying "A dead DPS does no DPS" and all that, because the damage done from the final 2 hits or so will be made up either by your allies (or yourself upon re-entering combat a few seconds later). I suppose what i'm saying is that there is no rush, so to speak, the situation in which you must get those last two hits out or things go really badly are quite limited.

However, very much in your defense, 3-5 times is absolutely nothing, and Warriors (as well as Guardians) perform a service that sometimes does not get the full appreciation it deserves. I play a Shout Healing Warrior, and I sacrifice damage in order to play so defensively, however through whatever random mechanics may be, I find myself "tanking" a lot of enemy aggro. As such, I do get downed a bit, but since the team I regularly play with know HOW I play, and WHY I play that way, I don't get any stick for it. So in my opinion going down 3-5 times is quite normal, if you're ONLY going down that many times, well then good job. We all know how hard Ele's drop...

Another point of course is that if you keep the HB going when a mob is just about to go down, sure stick with it, since you'll rally straight away anyway.

It does bug me that some players don't seem to understand the nature of resurrecting a downed ally. Some view it as a "service" that they shouldn't dish out undeservedly. However since it takes (a rather pessimistic estimation) of 5 seconds to bring a downed player up (providing you're not still getting smacked on), for your allies to actually complain at you for going down is nothing short of a travesty.

You certainly seem to understand that the rifle is there for desperate measures only (i.e. you REALLY can't melee a boss), so keep doing what you're doing, the people complaining are wrong to do so.

All there really is to it is just be sensible with HB (which you seem to be), you don't always need to let it finish.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 22 November 2012 - 01:26 PM.


#14 dawdler

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Hell going down 10 times is almost normal in regular dungeons :/

But to answer the question - yes. I would be annoyed. Both the Guardian and Warrior are mainly melee classes and I do not expect them to be glass cannons. I know they can both pump out an assload of damage when building for it, that's not in question. But if I am a half-naked cloth class (like say, my Mesmer) and there is a heavily armoured 3m tall Charr next me to flexing his muscles I sure as hell expect him to stand in the way of anything coming my way. Not get steamrolled by mobs because his main line of thought when putting together his traits was ERMAGERD MOAR DARMAG!!

But maybe its borderline roleplaying and giving players more credit than they deserve.

Sidenote: A defensive Warrior can melee bosses. Well many of them anyway. For CoF for example (the instance mentioned in the OP), the Searing Effigy is easily facetanked. Packing a rifle/longbow is still a necessity though.

Edited by dawdler, 22 November 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#15 Shiren

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

I run dungeons with my guardian in crazy fast times compared to me other classes (ranger main, mesmer and engineer) and I run full knights armor (power/precision/toughness) and a vitality rune set. I also have a balanced jewelery set (mostly knights, some vitality and maybe healing, can't remeber). I run a shout build so I'm very supportive. I melee all the time. I never have trouble with my DPS in dungeons and my survivability is amazing. I will often jump out of melee combat and switch to either a scepter/focus if I know before the encounter I will need to range, or a staff, so I can heal with the four skill and range a bit before jumping back in.

I will never stay in melee combat to DPS if I know I will be downed. Not unless it's absolutely vital the mob dies. It's a waste of time reviving downed people, that means, at a minimum, two people won't be doing DPS for that period which I'm sure is more than the last two hits of 100 blades. Reviving a downed player also means bad positioning. I can attack and move, I can't revive and move. If you are downed, there is a good chance you are in a bad position. If I die in a dungeon, four out of five times it was when I was trying to revive a downed person. Most party wipes I see are caused by reviving downed people. Sometimes it happens and it sucks, people take the risk to revive, but that doesn't mean you can go as a glass cannon melee and expect your group to cover your ass every time you are downed.

I have no problem with a glass cannon warrior who can sustain himself and stay in combat (actively contributing, not running around like a chicken without it's head trying to stay alive and not killing anything), but if you are glass cannon and you keep going downed, it's time to change your build. You become a liability.

#16 Dirk Hardpeck

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:51 PM

View Postlmaonade, on 22 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

FRENZY

^ This.

Not sure what you have for "semi" in your semi-glass cannon build, but swapping in some Knight's equipment can work wonders. Toughness <3

I also have to agree with Sithicus, being downed a few times in a dungeon is certainly not extreme. I should be so lucky >.>

#17 stefanplc

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

if it's on easy mechanics and it's always just you then I would get a little frustrated.. not to mention that shouts healing warriors are the best thing for dungeons anyways and they never die

#18 Murmer

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

I have seen this actually. I remember several of my teammates got so mad in one of my dungeon runs that the warrior went down a few times that they left the dungeon. I was surprised. I suppose that is the problem with being known as "the best class" by the majority. Expectations are through the roof.

#19 Matsy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

Just change to shout warrior build, you dont loose that much damage and you gain ton's of suvivability (not tons tons but enough to keep you on your feet).

Plus you help out your team instead of being the doosh who only cares about himself :P

#20 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

View Postdawdler, on 22 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Sidenote: A defensive Warrior can melee bosses. Well many of them anyway. For CoF for example (the instance mentioned in the OP), the Searing Effigy is easily facetanked. Packing a rifle/longbow is still a necessity though.

Pretty much any boss in the entire game is melee tankable, the only exception that springs to mind is Giganticus Lupicus, which ideally you should kite with your rifle. With Mace/Shield you have enough mechanisms to block attacks, and then dodges too, plus if you have Vigorous shouts, a whole bunch of micro-heals too, so there are plenty of things to keep you going.

#21 dawdler

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:19 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 22 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Pretty much any boss in the entire game is melee tankable, the only exception that springs to mind is Giganticus Lupicus
I dont count Giganticus Lupicus as a real boss, he's just a gigantic joke from Anet made for the specific purpose of tormenting players.

#22 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:27 PM

Aww he's a softie really ;)

#23 Nox_Aeterna

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:34 AM

I only run dungeons in guild. it does helps my guild is one of the big ones with around 500 members.

Either way i believe in a game where enemies hit like trucks and we got no trinity to hold the fire. Should be normal people go down from time to time.

#24 Desert Rose

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:09 AM

View Posttmxkn1, on 22 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

All I thought was I can't loose the 100 blades' last two hits, which deal huge amount of damage, (maybe) over 15 times than normal sword swings. I thought finishing the last two hits would be worth even if I downed and have someone to heal me up. Maybe this idea wasn't so wise.
Channeled abilities like 100B show you the total damage of the skill, not the damage of each hit. So, the last two hits don't deal e.g. 13k and 15k but 15-13k = 2k and 13k-12k = 1k damage; only the very last hit of 100B deals double as much damage as the eight other hits.

#25 Coren

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:25 AM

Yes it would annoy me. Doing massive damage for 10 seconds but then dieing basically shows you can't survive (obviously). I'd rather party with a warrior who does a bit less damage and does a constant damage output than one who wants to show off and ends up with his arse on the floor more often than a drunk.

#26 Matsy

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:29 AM

If they got downed because they used 100B and refused to move out of AoE of the boss and was obviously going to rolfstomp them and they didn't move, then yes, I'd be annoyed.  If the downing couldn't be avoided aka, died from condition's and conditon removal is on CD or anything else, then w/e, everyone goes down, just because the warrior has higher base hp doesn't mean they shouldn't go down from time to time.

Edited by Matsy, 23 November 2012 - 08:29 AM.


#27 Enforcer

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:29 AM

Imo you should go with berzerker item but using defensive trait. For PvE you don't really need to use the old frenzy+bull rush+100b combo, just a normal 100b is enough, as long as you know when to use it.

#28 LavaSquid

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

Whenever I see someone is downed, "FREE EXP" and I rush to revive him :P

I only have a lv35 warrior, I always have "Endure Pain" standby just for emergency use since it doesn't interrupt any of my burst/channeling skill and allows me to tank 5 sec. Just my noob opinion~

#29 bdatty

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

Seeing a warrior down is so embarrassing...how do they live like that

#30 matsif

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:47 PM

I always facepalm when a dual axe/GS warrior with no vitality or toughness gets in a party with me.  had 2 in the same run of AC last night and both of them died 5 times at the queen spider, to which I double facepalmed and proceeded to leave the group.

I don't think I've ever had a repair bill on my warrior in a dungeon so far running a hammer with banner regen or shout heals.  Whenever I see full signets on a warrior in my party I highly question their ability to do anything worthwhile other than "lol 100b spam olololol big numbers"




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