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#1 Fade_Guin

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:10 PM

Any opinions on how important this is, specifically for P/D? I've read that +75% bleed duration is the sweet spot or at least a good spot to be at.

I was considering trying for 75%, as most people tend to not pay attention to the P/D auto-attack, more specifically the bleed damage that stacks up. I'm sitting at 55% atm, with 15 in deadly arts and the 40% bleed duration/70 condition damage food.

Getting to 100% wouldn't be that rough, but I expect the tradeoffs would make it not worth doing.

#2 Phigment

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:53 AM

View PostFade_Guin, on 22 November 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Any opinions on how important this is, specifically for P/D? I've read that +75% bleed duration is the sweet spot or at least a good spot to be at.

I was considering trying for 75%, as most people tend to not pay attention to the P/D auto-attack, more specifically the bleed damage that stacks up. I'm sitting at 55% atm, with 15 in deadly arts and the 40% bleed duration/70 condition damage food.

Getting to 100% wouldn't be that rough, but I expect the tradeoffs would make it not worth doing.

Its up to you, I run a 50% duration build (but thats near max w/o going DA trait line since I dont do ZvZvZ)

For Pistol, the sweet spot is 25%. For every 25% you add an extra tick (4x25%=1). This works for auto and out of stealth attacks. Bleeds do NOT round up, so stick to 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% (anything else is wasted, unless maxing Caltrops which is listed below).

For Caltrops, the sweet spot is 34%. (3x34%=1). If you want 2 extra ticks on caltrops, your going to need to run 67% (3x67%=2.01).

#3 Mister Stygian

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:52 AM

I have an 80 theif that I tried to give a decent shot to, but barely play now because they are so inferior to mesmers.  Across the board for any class, condition duration is a crap stat.   People are going to cleanse in PvP, WvW or Bosses in dungeons and in most cases you are going to be able to reapply it before it would expire anyway unless it is poision or burning.   +Duration is probably the most worhtless thing in the game unless it is a boon on you.

Edited by Mister Stygian, 23 November 2012 - 03:55 AM.


#4 Phigment

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostMister Stygian, on 23 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

I have an 80 theif that I tried to give a decent shot to, but barely play now because they are so inferior to mesmers.  Across the board for any class, condition duration is a crap stat.   People are going to cleanse in PvP, WvW or Bosses in dungeons and in most cases you are going to be able to reapply it before it would expire anyway unless it is poision or burning.   +Duration is probably the most worhtless thing in the game unless it is a boon on you.

+Duration for bleed builds is more valuable than +dmg, but it sounds like you dont understand how the mechanics works.

#5 geist burdill

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

If you are using P/D you must go for +duration, its the best  way to increase stacks and at the same time deny condition removal; its bleeds only last 4 secs, with 100% u'll get 8 secs bleeds which are so easily reapplied  that condition removal is meaningless; if u can, go for 100%, it benefits both P/D and caltrops, it will add 4 ticks to vital shot/sneak attack and add 3 ticks to caltrops. With 100% ull get 25 stacks so easy its cheating. Ull probably get banned for it (lol, jk).

Edit: its pretty obvious mister stygian has no idea what he is talking about, just to enlighten him, here is a link for my explanation on this:  http://www.guildwars...fs-bleed-build/

Edited by geist burdill, 23 November 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#6 stefanplc

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

View PostMister Stygian, on 23 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

I have an 80 theif that I tried to give a decent shot to, but barely play now because they are so inferior to mesmers.  Across the board for any class, condition duration is a crap stat.   People are going to cleanse in PvP, WvW or Bosses in dungeons and in most cases you are going to be able to reapply it before it would expire anyway unless it is poision or burning.   +Duration is probably the most worhtless thing in the game unless it is a boon on you.

ignore his post, he doesn't know what he's talking about

View PostPhigment, on 23 November 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

Its up to you, I run a 50% duration build (but thats near max w/o going DA trait line since I dont do ZvZvZ)

For Pistol, the sweet spot is 25%. For every 25% you add an extra tick (4x25%=1). This works for auto and out of stealth attacks. Bleeds do NOT round up, so stick to 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% (anything else is wasted, unless maxing Caltrops which is listed below).

For Caltrops, the sweet spot is 34%. (3x34%=1). If you want 2 extra ticks on caltrops, your going to need to run 67% (3x67%=2.01).

this guy got it right

#7 Threash

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

If you are using a condition build 100% duration is pretty much the best stat you can have.  You can get 40% from food though so i guess you should shoot for 60%.

#8 Fade_Guin

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

Anyone know if two sigils of agony stack?

#9 daki

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:14 PM

Should work. Thought I had two equipped when I was trying some stuff @golems.

#10 realmisr

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:59 AM

Gonna test these to see which is better:

1 - runes 2/2/2 (56 cdmg + 45% duration) or 3/3 (166 cdmg + 30% duration)
2 - 2x agony vs corruption (with stacks considered)

I think for the +50% mark, the 3/3 runes would output more dmg...

Edited by realmisr, 24 November 2012 - 07:15 AM.


#11 Galandil

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:25 AM

View PostFade_Guin, on 23 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Anyone know if two sigils of agony stack?

I was sure that they wouldn't stack, following the old rule "two equal sigils don't provide both the bonus", as was (is?) the case with +5% dmg sigils.

But I just checked, and it seems that with 2 +10% bleed duration on both weapons, you get the +20% on bleed duration. I just checked with 3 runes of the afflcted, 3 runes of the krait, 2 sigils of agony and the Vital Shot skill (thief autoattack skill which inflicts a 4 sec bleed). The runes give both +15% on bleed dur., and with the 2 sigils the total goes to +50% duration. So 4*1.5=6 secs, and indeed I went from 4 ticks to 6 ticks. Removing just 1 sigil of agony, thus going down to +40% bleed duration, the ticks were just 5 (4*1.4=5.6 -> 5 secs).

#12 Invoky

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Why not use earth+agony? why use double agony(assuming if it even works) if you already get 1 extra tick?

#13 Fade_Guin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:14 PM

View PostGalandil, on 24 November 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

I was sure that they wouldn't stack, following the old rule "two equal sigils don't provide both the bonus", as was (is?) the case with +5% dmg sigils.

But I just checked, and it seems that with 2 +10% bleed duration on both weapons, you get the +20% on bleed duration. I just checked with 3 runes of the afflcted, 3 runes of the krait, 2 sigils of agony and the Vital Shot skill (thief autoattack skill which inflicts a 4 sec bleed). The runes give both +15% on bleed dur., and with the 2 sigils the total goes to +50% duration. So 4*1.5=6 secs, and indeed I went from 4 ticks to 6 ticks. Removing just 1 sigil of agony, thus going down to +40% bleed duration, the ticks were just 5 (4*1.4=5.6 -> 5 secs).

Yeah I did a little testing myself and came to the same conclusion that they do stack, which is nice.

Quote

Why not use earth+agony? why use double agony(assuming if it even works) if you already get 1 extra tick?

At least for me, I only have a 4% crit chance, so the sigil would be wasted. Using two agony sigils puts me at 100% duration.

Food: 40%
Sigils: 20%
Runes: 2/2/2 45%

Going 20 in deadly arts would give me 125% duration, but would mess my spec up a lot. Might be fun to toy with someday though.

#14 Galandil

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:23 PM

I'm using a bleed spec with 4% crit chance the same as you, and indeed using in PvP a +50% bleed duration (no food here :( ) is quite nice, it boosts almost all bleed skills for +2 secs each in terms of bleed stacks duration.

As soon as I have the time, I'll calculate the difference between using 2 agony sigils and agony + corruption sigil for the total of bleed dmg inflicted. The bad thing about corruption stacks that they go away when downed, so they lose some of their appeal (it'd be different if they'd go away just when we die completely).

#15 Fade_Guin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

View PostGalandil, on 24 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

I'm using a bleed spec with 4% crit chance the same as you, and indeed using in PvP a +50% bleed duration (no food here :( ) is quite nice, it boosts almost all bleed skills for +2 secs each in terms of bleed stacks duration.

As soon as I have the time, I'll calculate the difference between using 2 agony sigils and agony + corruption sigil for the total of bleed dmg inflicted. The bad thing about corruption stacks that they go away when downed, so they lose some of their appeal (it'd be different if they'd go away just when we die completely).

Just use the sigil of corruption to get your 25 stacks, and swap out that weapon for an identical one with an agony sigil. Once you hit that 25 stacks. the sigil becomes useless.

edit: I don't do a lot of spvp, mostly WvWvW, so the corruption sigil has a lot more value, as it won't drop as often due to downed state.

Edited by Fade_Guin, 24 November 2012 - 02:21 PM.


#16 Galandil

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostFade_Guin, on 24 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Just use the sigil of corruption to get your 25 stacks, and swap out that weapon for an identical one with an agony sigil. Once you hit that 25 stacks. the sigil becomes useless.

edit: I don't do a lot of spvp, mostly WvWvW, so the corruption sigil has a lot more value, as it won't drop as often due to downed state.

Ty, but I already knew that (I used to do it a lot in PvE with the sigil of luck).

The problem is that in sPvP you need to kill 5 opponents to get it fully charged (in spvp the sigil gives 5 stacks per kill), on average, however, I estimated that you can get the stacks up to 10/15 before getting downed (sometimes you're lucky and you go up to 25 and on other times it happens that you don't even get up to 10), instead the agony sigil is always "up and running".

I'll make some calculations to get the average increase in dmg with double agony/10-15 stacks on corruption and the time needed to apply that damage (which is important due to condition cleansing by the opponents).

#17 Fade_Guin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostGalandil, on 24 November 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Ty, but I already knew that (I used to do it a lot in PvE with the sigil of luck).

The problem is that in sPvP you need to kill 5 opponents to get it fully charged (in spvp the sigil gives 5 stacks per kill), on average, however, I estimated that you can get the stacks up to 10/15 before getting downed (sometimes you're lucky and you go up to 25 and on other times it happens that you don't even get up to 10), instead the agony sigil is always "up and running".

I'll make some calculations to get the average increase in dmg with double agony/10-15 stacks on corruption and the time needed to apply that damage (which is important due to condition cleansing by the opponents).

If you WvW, do you often feel useless as condition spec? I often find myself going glass cannon because cluster bomb hits so hard, and is a great deterrent in sieges (regardless of being a defender or attacker)

#18 Galandil

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

View PostFade_Guin, on 24 November 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

If you WvW, do you often feel useless as condition spec? I often find myself going glass cannon because cluster bomb hits so hard, and is a great deterrent in sieges (regardless of being a defender or attacker)

Honestly, I don't know, I've never used a cnd spec in WvW. I used a lot S/P and then for a while S/D, in WvW though I feel that the "fire and forget" mentality (i.e.: backstab) is superior to any cnd build, there's less awareness in general from opponents, and with a glass cannon build you can hit pretty hard the same with the SB during sieges as you correctly pointed out.

Edited by Galandil, 24 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.


#19 Mursie

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

View Postgeist burdill, on 23 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

If you are using P/D you must go for +duration, its the best  way to increase stacks and at the same time deny condition removal; its bleeds only last 4 secs, with 100% u'll get 8 secs bleeds which are so easily reapplied  that condition removal is meaningless; if u can, go for 100%, it benefits both P/D and caltrops, it will add 4 ticks to vital shot/sneak attack and add 3 ticks to caltrops. With 100% ull get 25 stacks so easy its cheating. Ull probably get banned for it (lol, jk).

Edit: its pretty obvious mister stygian has no idea what he is talking about, just to enlighten him, here is a link for my explanation on this:  http://www.guildwars...fs-bleed-build/

I've read the quotes and I guess I just fail to see your logic on how duration definitely trumps increased dmg.  A few points to consider:

1.  In wvwvw...burst has always been king because the longer you take to kill... the better chance you will be zerged and killed.  With that said...making a dot that ticks for 4secs...tick for 8..or 12... or 15... seems trivial.  the longer the time span that your opponent isn't dead...the better chance of you being killed.  Further, this increase in duration seems to assume you apply the condition and then run away.  in that scenario... on one application, the longer the duration the more dmg done.  but a fight is continual so whether its a 4sec duration or 8sec duration..you are applying continually in the fight until a victor emerges...  Continual application considered, wouldn't you want the ticks that are being continually applied to hit as hard as possible?

2.  FInally, you sacrified some stats to get +duration... but a longer duration allows your opponent to cleanse and condition removal...making the +condition duration meaningless.

the way i see it, I can put a 200 tick dot on you that lasts 8 secs... or a 250 dot that lasts 4.  you can wipe away either...but I'll continually reapply and you'll continually eat ticks... wouldn't you rather have the opponent eat 250ticks?

please enlighten

Edited by Mursie, 17 December 2012 - 09:22 PM.


#20 geist burdill

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostMursie, on 17 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I've read the quotes and I guess I just fail to see your logic on how duration definitely trumps increased dmg.  A few points to consider:

1.  In wvwvw...burst has always been king because the longer you take to kill... the better chance you will be zerged and killed.  With that said...making a dot that ticks for 4secs...tick for 8..or 12... or 15... seems trivial.  the longer the time span that your opponent isn't dead...the better chance of you being killed.  Further, this increase in duration seems to assume you apply the condition and then run away.  in that scenario... on one application, the longer the duration the more dmg done.  but a fight is continual so whether its a 4sec duration or 8sec duration..you are applying continually in the fight until a victor emerges...  Continual application considered, wouldn't you want the ticks that are being continually applied to hit as hard as possible?

2.  FInally, you sacrified some stats to get +duration... but a longer duration allows your opponent to cleanse and condition removal...making the +condition duration meaningless.

the way i see it, I can put a 200 tick dot on you that lasts 8 secs... or a 250 dot that lasts 4.  you can wipe away either...but I'll continually reapply and you'll continually eat ticks... wouldn't you rather have the opponent eat 250ticks?

please enlighten

1-> Burst as nothing to do here, this is dot dmg, which is the same as damage over time, and is the opposite of burst, for burst we have totally different builds; second, and THIS is what mathers for duration vs higher dmg, duration allows for more stacking, more bleeds, if u have bleeds ticking for 4 secs only, and a pistol shooting at 0.75 secs rate, u can only stack 5 bleeds until the first one expires, and so on and so forth, if, however, ur pistol bleeds last 8 secs, ull be able to stack 9/10 bleeds, all ticking  for x dmg, thats why EVERYONE goes with 2 krait/2 aflicted/2 centaur on their P/D specs; as you can see, in the first example, ull have more dmg bleeds, but only 5 ticking at any given time, the second case u'll have ten slighly lower dmg bleeds ticking at any given time. As for the removal, it works for both high bleeds and low bleeds, players usualy cleanse at a given number of stacks or at a given treshold of health pool.

2-> I did not sacrifice anything, i only use sigil and runes to increase duration, even if i had sacrificed all the +183 malice from a full rune set, (which i dont) thats only 9 less dmg per tick, ull be doing 101 instead of 110... if i only want 50% increase, 3 krait + 3 afflicted and 2 sigils or 20 in power line will do that,and im only giving away 27 malice, which is 1 dmg. No sacrifice at all, where are u getting all this sacrifice? i still use full carrion+traits.

To finalize, i dont put a 200 tick dot instead of a 250 tick dot, i put 2 ticks at 200 dmg instead of 1 at 250. Hope this clarifies.

Edited by geist burdill, 19 December 2012 - 12:49 AM.


#21 Drtrider

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

Just wanted to say thanks to every one in this thread. Really helped out my P/D build as well by reading the info posted here. Ticks now hitting for ~130 a tick and easily packing on 25stacks. Thanks again!

#22 perche

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:34 AM

View PostDrtrider, on 23 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Just wanted to say thanks to every one in this thread. Really helped out my P/D build as well by reading the info posted here. Ticks now hitting for ~130 a tick and easily packing on 25stacks. Thanks again!

can post your build and your equip, runes and sygils?.

thx




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