30 replies to this topic

[Majigor]

A-net just opened a thread on the official forums which I thought you guys may be interested in.

Here is the link: https://forum-en.gui...irst#post839816

Below is a quote from CCharles.


"Hello everyone,
Due to the amount of threads about thief and its gameplay impact, we have decided to open this thread in which you can discuss your concerns about Thieves in PvE, sPvP and WvW.
This will allow us to collect your feedback with more efficiency and forward them to the appropriate teams.
You can articulate both, positive and negative feedback for it, but we ask you to stay constructive and polite when you want to express your opinion, all posts that break the forum code of conduct will be removed.
Thank you"

Edited by Majigor, 23 November 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Symbiont]

endless stream of complains towards the thief, it's BS.

[Majigor]

Well not really. There are some decent posts in there. The bad ones won't overshadow them. It's obvious which ones are people ranting, and which ones are actually well thought out. The people working for the game aren't stupid they will just have a good look through, do some testing based on the common issues and better developed comments, and possibly implement some changes.

[sty0pa]

I assume this is all about the thief in PVP?  Because I hardly think thieves are op in PVE.

It begs a question, though: what is it intrinsically that "works so well" for a thief in pvp that doesn't have much impact in PVE?  Or vice versa?

Further, and a more theoretical question: I'd say even in PVP, thieves are easy to kill IF you catch them wrong-footed, unawares, or low on initiative.  So...is there something intrinsically broken about such a class in pvp?  Is it just that people don't like it when there's always someone that can kill them (at the cost, of course, of their lives if you have a friend)?

Personally - and understand, I'm frustrated as hell playing my thief because I almost never pvp, and somehow I can't 'get it' in pve, so this isn't the whinge of some roguephile - I don't see anything wrong with a little bit of rock-paper-scissors.  Everyone *should* be afraid of something.

[Majic]

The fact that they did this means, of course, that big changes are coming.

Grab your popcorn.

[Al Shamari]

sty0pa, on 24 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

It begs a question, though: what is it intrinsically that "works so well" for a thief in pvp that doesn't have much impact in PVE?  Or vice versa?

Easy, being able to quickly dispose of one target player is the name of the game in PvP (in general, for the most part). Where as, in PvE you're having to dispose of multiple mobs, where Thieves aren't as strong due to their lack of health.

[Minion]

Thieves have the lowest survivability as a whole in PvE. Stealth works for the most part in dungeons, because you can force the AI to target your allies and not you, whilst outputting heavy DPS. The problem is, they currently don't have enough party-utility to warrant a space over a warrior or guardian. Guardian can offer a ton of Might to the other physical in their team, as well as that desirable virtue of Justice which further increases DPS for Guardian. Warriors have high AoE damage too, while the thief's two AoE options lack in direct damage as both rely on bleeding; Death Blossom and Cluster Bomb. These are the two main problems that I can see, since survivability isn't too bad, but ironically, the DPS of a thief in PvE is lower than a Guardian or Warrior.

[Rachmani]

That's pretty much on spot.
I'd add, that with such limited weapon options each set needs to be fleshed out further. With initative and therefore much less incentive to switch weapons it's ok for sets to be single target only - the second set can cover that.
Problem is, no weapon/weapon-set does that, at least not in terms of direct damage.
Also, like Minion said, every /P set get's hit hard by not having stealth, all in terms of survivability & D/P also in terms of damage.

[Minion]

The problem can be resolved by giving them the capability of AoE Might spreading or condition cleaning party wide. There's a trait that gives YOU might everytime you cloak, but that should really be AoE, to keep up with the guardian's ability to dish out 15 stacks of Might party-wide.

[Rachmani]

As you mention it.
Some of my "problems" with the thief class really come from stealth being a "class mechanic" of some sort that more than half our weapon sets don't have reliable access to. Shadow Arts, one of our potentially more interesting trait lines - even more if we were to get some parts of it as group utility - also relies on stealth.

[Minion]

Rachmani, on 26 November 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

As you mention it.
Some of my "problems" with the thief class really come from stealth being a "class mechanic" of some sort that more than half our weapon sets don't have reliable access to. Shadow Arts, one of our potentially more interesting trait lines - even more if we were to get some parts of it as group utility - also relies on stealth.

You can pretty reliably steal stealth skills; iHouse (or whatever that party-wide stealth is called) and the other utility which blinds/stealths. But not all weapons really require constant stealth to be useful. The stealth abilities have to be weighed to understand this:

Backstab is pure damage with no extra benefit other than the element of surprise. In PvE, that doesn't mean much. The other ones either snare or stun; Anet don't want stuns and snares being spammed so easily.

[Rachmani]

It's all fair and true, but at least in PvE (and W3) stealth is much more than just a means of dealing damage. It's a major source of defense too. I don't really know (and care) about sPvP, though. Still, I understand there is the need to balance that, too. Maybe even more so.

[Vexd]

game dev's which use their official forums for feedback makes me a sad panda, these days the console kids only use this to complain, thief nerf inc.

[Majigor]

Vexd, on 26 November 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

game dev's which use their official forums for feedback makes me a sad panda, these days the console kids only use this to complain, thief nerf inc.

Actually this thread they made is a response to thief nerfs... It seems odd that they would nerf it, ask thief players what they feel needs looking at as a result, then nerf some more...?

[Minion]

they better not make us weaker in PvE; we're already on the bottom wrung.

[GrandmaFunk]

PVE: Thieves survive by keeping on the move, that strategy is pretty much a non-starter in many dungeons and fractal instances. I'm not really sure what the answer to that is.

WvW: PermaStealth builds need to be shut down.

[Minion]

GrandmaFunk, on 26 November 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

PVE: Thieves survive by keeping on the move, that strategy is pretty much a non-starter in many dungeons and fractal instances. I'm not really sure what the answer to that is.

WvW: PermaStealth builds need to be shut down.

Survivability isn't the problem... It's lack of offensive or defensive party support. They only have shadow refuge for that, which pales in comparison to warrior or guardian shouts.

The stealth thing is only a problem because gw2 renders so goddamn slowly. That's what needs fixing. Perma stealth doesn't really exist. It's a phrase people use who are too bad at the game and keep getting killed by backstab thieves. Calling them Perma Stealth makes them sound unbeatable so you feel better when dying to them all the time.

[Vexd]

Majigor, on 26 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Actually this thread they made is a response to thief nerfs... It seems odd that they would nerf it, ask thief players what they feel needs looking at as a result, then nerf some more...?

That's probably their intention, but it will just break down into another whining thread. You can see it alread, every other post is along the lines of "I main thief in WvW and omg OP nerf this nerf that" etc. Like every other 'class feedback thread' made on the official forums of every MMO ever made.

[Linfang]

Minion, on 25 November 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

Thieves have the lowest survivability as a whole in PvE. Stealth works for the most part in dungeons, because you can force the AI to target your allies and not you, whilst outputting heavy DPS. The problem is, they currently don't have enough party-utility to warrant a space over a warrior or guardian. Guardian can offer a ton of Might to the other physical in their team, as well as that desirable virtue of Justice which further increases DPS for Guardian. Warriors have high AoE damage too, while the thief's two AoE options lack in direct damage as both rely on bleeding; Death Blossom and Cluster Bomb. These are the two main problems that I can see, since survivability isn't too bad, but ironically, the DPS of a thief in PvE is lower than a Guardian or Warrior.

I agree. I play both a thief and a guardian. The thieves skills and abilities are so selfish compared to a guardian who is selfless.

[Siva]

You are playing a selfish class and then you are complaining about the class being selfish? And out of anything you compare a thief gameplay to a guardian?

[Linfang]

Siva, on 28 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

You are playing a selfish class and then you are complaining about the class being selfish? And out of anything you compare a thief gameplay to a guardian?

No I am comparing GW2 professions to each other. The thief is stereotyped as selfish and lives up to it's stereotype. There is no reason it has to be like this. The point of each profession is to branch of in different roles like tanky, or dps, support etc, the thief is on the short end of the stick

Edited by Linfang, 28 November 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Minion]

Siva, on 28 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

You are playing a selfish class and then you are complaining about the class being selfish? And out of anything you compare a thief gameplay to a guardian?

Do you really think there is balance when the thief is the only profession of 8 that contains zero party support?  ya gg keeping up with lore guise

[prince vingador]

Linfang, on 28 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

I agree. I play both a thief and a guardian. The thieves skills and abilities are so selfish compared to a guardian who is selfless.

they are lone wolfs,looking for an easy kill every 30 seconds.on the other hand in pve they are very weak.

[Rachmani]

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the lack of trait and skill synergies.
Going through warrior or guardian forum there is always somerhing going on in terms of builds and synergies and stuff.
Seems exciting.
Thief traits on the other hand are pretty boring. They aren't even bad they just stand for themselves, even the rather interesting ones like Hidden Killer.
As much as I like initiative but the class probably would have been better of with cooldowns (from a design point of view) and stealth as a 15 Second CD - stealth for 3 seconds. They even could've kept steal as our second class mechanic.

[Majigor]

Rachmani, on 29 November 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the lack of trait and skill synergies.
Going through warrior or guardian forum there is always somerhing going on in terms of builds and synergies and stuff.
Seems exciting.
Thief traits on the other hand are pretty boring. They aren't even bad they just stand for themselves, even the rather interesting ones like Hidden Killer.
As much as I like initiative but the class probably would have been better of with cooldowns (from a design point of view) and stealth as a 15 Second CD - stealth for 3 seconds. They even could've kept steal as our second class mechanic.

Initiative is here to stay. It's not the problem.

The 'problem' is lack of support, game glitches ("permastealth") and lack of offensive/ defensive synergy as you say.

I agree with you also that traits need looking at, as this could fix a lot of the issues.

In fact, it's not really that the class actually has a major issue. It just happens to have more fine-tuning left to do than other classes, and recent attempts to do this have actually exposed these issues more fully. Those 'nerfs' may prove to be a blessing in disguise.

I just hope A-net do something good with this.

Vexd, on 28 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

That's probably their intention, but it will just break down into another whining thread. You can see it alread, every other post is along the lines of "I main thief in WvW and omg OP nerf this nerf that" etc. Like every other 'class feedback thread' made on the official forums of every MMO ever made.

It did break down, but those forums always do. I think A-net's mods are used to it by now judging by their reactions. I have faith that they will identify common issues popping up (like "permastealth") and handle them appropriately.

[Rachmani]

Majigor, on 29 November 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Initiative is here to stay. It's not the problem.

The 'problem' is lack of support, game glitches ("permastealth") and lack of offensive/ defensive synergy as you say.

I agree with you also that traits need looking at, as this could fix a lot of the issues.

In fact, it's not really that the class actually has a major issue. It just happens to have more fine-tuning left to do than other classes, and recent attempts to do this have actually exposed these issues more fully. Those 'nerfs' may prove to be a blessing in disguise.

I just hope A-net do something good with this.

Of course Initiative is going to stay! And as a player I'm quite glad about that - for that matter.
I hope we'll see traits that do more than just add some damage or reduce a CD.
Actually there is some of that in the shadow arts tree already but just too minor to be of real importance. The only tree that NEEDs a reliable stealth mechanism to work of course. The only set's with a reliable stealth mechanism are of course melee, which really bad in fractals :/.
- Better group synergy. Thief can't be the single king of the ring in terms of damage, so he has to bring a bit more in terms of team support.
- More interesting traits that allow for actual synergies and in the end, more interesting builds & playstyles.
- Another ranged set - probably a rifle - which in turn allows for P/P to be either condition OR power focused.
- Maybe a way for every weapon set to utilize stealth. That's a BIG maybe though.

[Minion]

There is a guardian trait at 15 radiance to recharge their offensive virtue. Why don't thieves get that option? Recharge Steal on kill trait plz.

[Rachmani]

More Backstab galore!!!

[Vexd]

Minion, on 29 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

There is a guardian trait at 15 radiance to recharge their offensive virtue. Why don't thieves get that option? Recharge Steal on kill trait plz.

haha I would love that

[SlizeTT]

Some decent posts out there, i just hope they not gonna be lost between bullhit.
But if anyone something constructive to say about thief, that thread is definetly better place than here/this forum.

So we might aswell give it a try, who knows maybe theyll notice.