772 replies to this topic

[Kyiv]

Romarion, on 29 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

The difference in this match up is skill.

No, WvW is about coverage and numbers.  One can pick out a few examples of when skill has trumped numbers, but in a 24/7 1 week long match, skill is lost in the background of coverage and numbers.  After launch when servers could pack WvW 24/7 one could argue skill, but now it is about large guilds who put in many hours and out coverage out number the enemy.  Nothing wrong with that, just the nature of the beast now.  Hence why WvW needs smaller matchups with small maps that aren't a prolonged war.

BTW I am not SBI so I am not being defensive about what you said, just stating my opinion what WvW is really about and most people know this.

[Kleenex]

Vanu4life, on 29 November 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

If you're going to make blanket statements by saying I have "hate" for SBI don't be upset when I state you must be a bandwagoner for not knowing a thing about my posting history regarding SBI.  Sucks, doesn't it?

As for everything else, you seem to be misunderstanding.  I'm not taking away anything from SBI.  I believe that if you win, you earned your win.  It doesn't matter if you were against 1 person or 50 million, a win is a win.  No excuses.  But you can't pretend SBI is the greatest thing ever while ignoring their history.  You can't brag about comebacks and winning, while ignoring when and why you starting winning and who you've won against.  You can't brag about how great you are when you're winning, while making excuses as to why your losing when you lose in an attempt to * the other servers you are losing to.

And by "you", I'm not directing this at you specifically but rather SBI.  As for the "bad apples", those Bad Apples are not random trolls.  They are leaders of the SBI WvW community.  They post the same shit only twice as bad on the SBI forums.

The only two SBI I've seen that have held their head up and said GG were Zero and Cover Girl.  Maybe those two posters should represent and run the SBI forms instead of the current crop of fools now.  It makes me feel bad for SBI when I read their posts on the GW2Forums and then come here and read the crap by the "leaders of the alliance".

I use the word "Hate" which is wrong didn't intend it that way. I agree with you a Win is a win regardless of the method use (minus exploits and cheat). I don't read the SBI forum as alot crap gets posted there.

Losing will bring out the bad in people and commanders that can't handle a lost without QQ and b*tching is not worthy of a commander title. Beside Commanders are only another player who had 100G to spend, therefore I don't tend to follow them unless they have prove to have some tactic and co-ordination in there play.

P.S Didn't even knew we had an alliance

[Pusha]

Kyiv, on 29 November 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

No, WvW is about coverage and numbers.  One can pick out a few examples of when skill has trumped numbers, but in a 24/7 1 week long match, skill is lost in the background of coverage and numbers.  After launch when servers could pack WvW 24/7 one could argue skill, but now it is about large guilds who put in many hours and out coverage out number the enemy.  Nothing wrong with that, just the nature of the beast now.  Hence why WvW needs smaller matchups with small maps that aren't a prolonged war.

BTW I am not SBI so I am not being defensive about what you said, just stating my opinion what WvW is really about and most people know this.

I agree.  In guild wars 2, individual skill really is meaningless.  It's about coverage, numbers, and coordination.  GW2 is a game that is power in numbers, and yes most MMO's are like that, but when there are no skill shots involved, and when players don't load and you just drop aoe's everywhere, there is no skill involved really.

[NotKMoose]

A lot of beef over some really great performances the last day and half....at work ATM but score anyone...?

[Obscure One]

NotKMoose, on 30 November 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

A lot of beef over some really great performances the last day and half....at work ATM but score anyone...?

As of 418 PST:

Despite it all everyone is doing quite well.

[Combat Medic]

"It's all about coverage"
"Individual skill is meaningless"
"It's all about numbers"

You're absolutely right!!
http://www.youtube.c...bed/j54bkD-3Nr0

http://www.youtube.c...bed/k_pTO4m3Ajo

http://www.youtube.c...bed/kN9UxWPC6Vg

http://www.youtube.c...bed/3y0FgvrdzT4

http://www.youtube.c...bed/mnRvYS6UiGE

... and again, another reason why there are some guilds at the top of the heap, and others will struggle. If you can't see the value in individual skill then you're just relying on empty tactics. Sure, you'll get people to follow just long enough provided they are winning (Ruin was a great example of this) but once the fight is there and things are tough, loyalties will be tested. There are guilds out there that are much hungrier, tougher, and downright persistent when it comes to getting the job done and if you don't have the tenacity to stick it out through the rough patches, how can you possibly expect to win?

Trust me, the list goes on for the stories of the lone defender that held out at garrisson just long enough for the calvary to arrive or how the mighty fell to numbers much smaller than their own at bay. The above are literally 30 seconds of digging up examples but my point still stands.

Edited by Combat Medic, 30 November 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[DeagarFA]

Numbers are important, but every server has enough numbers to fill the maps. It comes down to whether people on a server want to fight in WvW and that's partially related to the server community and partially to new events like moving tiers exciting the playerbase.

It's funny, the top 50% of the servers have what it takes to easily get #1, but it'd take them just zoning into WvW, which they don't want to do.

Edited by DeagarFA, 30 November 2012 - 12:34 AM.

[FBRin]

Man, you guys take WvW too seriously.

It was never competitive. It wasn't designed to be competitive. It will never be competitive. Bragging about wvw wins is like bragging about winning a basketball game when the other team showed up with 1 guy.

Just grab a group or 3 of your friends and attack some people. You'll find you have less to complain about if you don't worry about the scoreboard and just fight. Just avoid the zergs from whichever server is currently 'outskilling' the others with double the coverage. Hell gather up on one map to make it even better.

[crowea]

Looks like we'll all be seeing each other for a while longer. Looks like the match-ups for all of the top five NA  tiers and T8 next week will all be a repeat of this week. Only T6/T7 match-ups (affected by ET/HoD) are shifting that much. European servers are still a bit crazy.

[Tiumarv]

Nice, everyone at SoS did an awesome job tonight again, RMA had some good fights at SBI and SoS borders, I'm really looking for the next weekend, I'm pretty sure we'll have  some epic battles next week ^^

I just hope those battle will endure through all the week long, if SoS get to be behind in the score you guys can be sure we'll do.

Edited by Tiumarv, 30 November 2012 - 01:45 AM.

[Hohen]

Romarion, on 29 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

The title of this thread says it all. Midweek SoS guilds decided to hold off on the PvE and give SBI trolls what they want.

Now that SoS has halted all PvE to fight, SBI is coming out with all sorts of excuses as to why they lost a second week. SoS is too stacked? Titan Alliance has reformed? SBI are still in PvE mode? Daish works for Anet? Just stop it, you embarrass yourself and you're server by making pitiful excuses.

SBI has been a main player due to WM / NYS zergs. When the odds are even and doubly backed by the skill of the SoS immortals they crumble and whimper like some half grade tier 4 server.

If you are referring to Titan Alliance at all. Don't! We have PRX and DiE. Which is a pretty big stack I guess. PRX is the best NA guild on GW2 NA servers and DiE is by far the best Oceanic guild. But TA ends there. There is no TA. They are 2 guilds of the some 10 that were in TA.

SBI is stacked with Yaki and SYN. On top of that SBI has WM / NYS. From our point of view it seems like every single map we go onto there is SBI in large numbers there. SBI borderlands proved the difference in numbers and skill over the past 12 hours. It took a zerg of WM with other PUGS which numbered about 50+ about 5 hours to take Dreaming Bay from 20 or so DiE and a few PRX.

The difference in this match up isn't the numbers. It isn't that people are on holidays, have been on holidays, are away, have been hit by hurricanes, are farming the new dungeon, are going for map completion. The difference in this match up is skill. The skill difference between the main guilds on SBI compared to the main guilds on SoS cannot be measured. The difference is just too much.

Enjoy the rest of the match up.

Don't even try. You are failing at it. The numbers of all the guild you mentioned are all down compared to the 3-week match with JQ/BG but we shouldn't use that as an excuse. SBI lost and we are not making any excuses. But to say that the reason SoS is winning is because of LARGE difference in skill is total bs. We can argue here all you want but you cannot prove that. I've been playing the last few days and there are only 1-2 big zergs playing in ALL borderlands (oceanic time). The main zerg just hops around but mostly stays in SBI borderland. Yaki and NYS attendance aren't even half of what they were used to be. They cant even fill 1 map nowadays (combined) or when they do, its only for 2 hours or so and SYN is a small guild also. WM attendance is lower too. I know because i've been playing at oceanic time ever since day 1 of WvW.

SoS guilds are good and highly skilled but what you said is simply baseless and borderline dumb. I've personally seen a small group of WM led by Jang Gun like 10+ members wiped out a group of 20-30 DiE and PRX. But unlike you, i won't post nonsense stuff like WM > DiE + PRX. There are too many factors to consider and due to the design of WvW, you cannot ever say which main guilds are better. Besides, if ever that's true, defending an upgraded bay is not that hard to do even if you're outnumbered.

Now, GvG is a different thing. If Anet ever implements it, then we can wait for the results and i will listen to whatever you will say.

Grats to SoS. You are officially the number 1 server now (no more PvE excuses). SBI people should stop from posting excuses so SoS guys like this person won't be hurt too much because they deserve it.

Enjoy the rest of the match up.

Edited by Hohen, 30 November 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Fannwong]

Hello,

Here are some observations and analysis for the last 2 weeks:

SOS leadership understands 'total war' 100%. Total war includes politics, field warfare and psychology. Total war is unfair. Total war is the endgame for WvW.

1. SOS managed to put together a coalition of NA and Oceanic guilds to push. This speaks volumes about their leadership, being able to understand and align political viewpoints is a skill set in itself. Only about 1-2% of guilds understand and practice this meta game.

2. SOS understands that objectives are KEY and post scouts at these objectives. All objectives are upgraded to the max, including supply camps. SOS uses 20+ men mobile forces positioned at 2-3 different points of the map to respond to scout reports. These 20+ men will run to defend the objectives. The response time is consistent. This shows discipline and organization.

3. SOS understands psychology of using blitzkrieg type response. Overwhelming numbers destroys PUG morale in the long term. The PUG will leave WvW or change map after 2-3 wipes because they are not having fun.

SBI has these choices to make, both in the short and long term.

1. For the short term, SBI will conduct asymmetrical warfare as PUGS cannot effectively assist in major pushes and in the face of overwhelming battlefield superiority (strategic and numbers). Meaning SBI guilds and PUGs conduct guerrilla warfare an hitting small objectives and/or SOS troops instead of keeps and towers. This is already happening in the last few days.

2. SBI has really good leadership but the numbers of folks from organized guilds in WvW has been dropping over the last 2 weeks. They are either taking a break or leaving the game due to various reasons. This means that PUGs comprise about 60-80% of WvW population and they are not on TS. SBI leadership has to motivate PUGs, which requires a different skill set from managing guildies. Managing PUGs is a tenuous affair and it is not simple nor easy. There are only a few commanders who can do this in SBI, those who command respect from both PUGs and guild groups.

FW

Disclaimer: I am not a WM officer and I am not spokesman for WM. I speak for myself as a GW2 player.

Edited by Fannwong, 30 November 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[MrZero]

Hohen, on 30 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

Now, GvG is a different thing. If Anet ever implements it, then we can wait for the results and i will listen to whatever you will say.

Now why the hell would there be any guild vs. guild content in a game called Guild Wars 2?

[Hohen]

MrZero, on 30 November 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

Now why the hell would there be any guild vs. guild content in a game called Guild Wars 2?

I have no idea. We should probably ask Anet about it! or maybe we should just change the game title to QQ Wars 2.

[crowea]

Reading the above post (from Fannwong) shows why WM are so good.

Edited by crowea, 30 November 2012 - 02:08 AM.

[Evank1]

Fannwong, on 30 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

<snip>

Cheers, well said.

I for one, like the new WvW. We now have 6 servers that are all capable of taking the top spot and that is healthy competition. So play to your strengths and try mitigate your weaknesses. Every T1/T2 matchup takes the full week to be decided. It all just depends who puts in the most work that particular week.

None of these servers have 24 hr coverage; all of them have coverage gaps. *

SBI - lacks EU
JQ - lacks Oceanic/SEA
SoS - lacks EU
SoR - lacks NA/Oceanic
BG - lacks NA/Oceanic
IOJ - lacks EU

* The above are from what I gathered from forum posts here so feel free to correct me.

[MrZero]

Fannwong, on 30 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

SBI has these choices to make, both in the short and long term.

1. For the short term, SBI will conduct asymmetrical warfare as PUGS cannot effectively assist in major pushes and in the face of overwhelming battlefield superiority (strategic and numbers). Meaning SBI guilds and PUGs conduct guerrilla warfare an hitting small objectives and/or SOS troops instead of keeps and towers. This is already happening in the last few days.

2. SBI has really good leadership but the numbers of folks from organized folks in WvW has been dropping over the last 2 weeks. They are either taking a break or leaving the game due to various reasons. This means that PUGs comprise about 60-80% of WvW population and they are not on TS. SBI leadership has to motivate PUGs, which requires a different skill set from managing guildies. Managing PUGs is a tenuous affair and it is not simple nor easy. There are only a few commanders who can do this in SBI, those who command respect from both PUGs and guild groups.

FW

I hope they read this. Especially the 2nd point.

They paranoid leaders that are on SBI need to grow as commanders and realize that there isn't a spy behind every blade of grass and that just because people aren't in your guild they suck. I have seen some of the worst decisions made by some of the leaders in these "major guilds". Plus, how the hell are you gonna worry about spies when the server TS has no password? Not tha tthey would bother going in there to spy because nobody is ever in there. You know why nobody is in there? THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT SPIES!!! Are you sure it's spies and not just good scouting?

WM and LoD understand something that a lot of the other guilds don't. "PuGs" enhance their teams not hinder them. I get it when you are doing something sneaky you might want only some of your guildmates because of communication issues. When you are making a serious push on a defended tower and you say something like "We are an alliance guild. If you want to run with us, message someone for our TS info." There are a couple issues with this example. In the time it takes you or one of you members to type all that shit out and go through more trouble explaining all connection issues and why you want it that way, you can do like WM and LoD does and type simple commands like "come" "Left" "Right" "Behind". My favorites I have seen are the ones Bahaness gives. ^^^^^ <<<<< >>>>>

Then again, I don't know why I would expect any of it to change. It has been this way from the get go.

Thanks for the post Fann, it was good. I'll be reading and not answering the PMs about being a traitor now.

[zj12345]

Technically to be a traitor, you have to be working for someone. Who would that someone be?

[MrZero]

zj12345, on 30 November 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Technically to be a traitor, you have to be working for someone. Who would that someone be?

HA! True. I looked again it was was, " been pegged as the forum minion of some other server".

[Wraithpk]

MrZero, on 30 November 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

stuff

What you guys all need to do is take these pugs, invite them to your guilds, and train them.  That's what a lot of the SoS guilds do.  We also don't always broadcast when we're going to make a quick strike in chat, but that's not because we fear spies on the server, it's just so we don't draw too many people because a larger group is harder to move undetected.  The leaders of the guilds always know what's going on, and I can speak that my guild leader always has us informed as to what the plan is, even if we will be serving as a diversion and not part of the real assault.  There have even been times where Kurthos from [WORK] has invited everyone on a map to their TS server.  You shouldn't fear your own pugs as possible spies, you should take them in and incorporate them into your main force.

[MikeSr]

Good fight SoS, congratulations on another win this week. You guys blew away our initial lead and proved your first win was no fluke.

JQ I can see you trying to steal the no.2 spot from us again this week, but its not gonna happen

My server SBI, I hope all WvWvW have the same queue as Lions Arch one day. As long as there are a few ppl who continue to fight despite the score SBI will survive. SoS coming at us has revealed a few "forums warriors" who used to talk tough against weaker opponents but now have chickened back to their PvE wonderland, good riddance.

I wish there was a commander like Jang Gun to cover each time zone on SBI. I have never seen a commander lead an army of random pugs so effectively. While many posers are quoting "Art of War by Sun Tzu", Jang Gun applies it in the heat of battle.

In my opinion SoS rising was a very good for WvWvW. It helped shake things at the top and "purified" SBI and JQ. SoS has good coverage, but it is not invincible like HoD - a fact that wont discourage others from trying to beat it.

WvWvW Oriented guilds which are not in top 4 servers and are considering to move: Please consider Stormbuff Isle, Jade Quarry or Blackgate. Each one of these servers have a weak spot in their coverage, if you fit into that spot it will be a good match. These servers have had players transfer over to SoS, quitting GW2 and the weaker ones going back to PvE. You reinforcing them will help keep WvWvW alive and competitive.

[MrZero]

Wraithpk, on 30 November 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

What you guys all need to do is take these pugs, invite them to your guilds, and train them.  That's what a lot of the SoS guilds do.  We also don't always broadcast when we're going to make a quick strike in chat, but that's not because we fear spies on the server, it's just so we don't draw too many people because a larger group is harder to move undetected.  The leaders of the guilds always know what's going on, and I can speak that my guild leader always has us informed as to what the plan is, even if we will be serving as a diversion and not part of the real assault.  There have even been times where Kurthos from [WORK] has invited everyone on a map to their TS server.  You shouldn't fear your own pugs as possible spies, you should take them in and incorporate them into your main force.

You are talking about the guild that "founded" the server so they didn't have to take orders from others. On the other hand, it's their way or the highway when it comes to joining or follow their guilds. There is a word for that....

[transtemporal]

Fannwong, on 30 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

<snip>

We would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

[Vihar]

DeagarFA, on 30 November 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

Numbers are important, but every server has enough numbers to fill the maps. It comes down to whether people on a server want to fight in WvW and that's partially related to the server community and partially to new events like moving tiers exciting the playerbase.

It's funny, the top 50% of the servers have what it takes to easily get #1, but it'd take them just zoning into WvW, which they don't want to do.

  Which is what everyone has been saying, and for some reason the SoS folks are raging over it.

MonsterDemon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Maybe the people claiming to be able to take out numbers twice the size are killing the undergeared level 10 leveled up to 80...  These powerful level 80's with their nourishments, buffs and such applied can boost 100 to various attributes.  They feel they have that big stick since they can dominate JP and dominates the little guy trying to run along with others capping...  Let's give them a hand for their skill or was it more like a lack of.

  Oh, I see.

    Those 40 man SoS groups are all underlevelled, undergeared noobs.

   That explains a lot.

[Walker]

Stei, on 29 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

We definitely just fell apart without menaace omg I mean our oceanics definitely left (we knocked out every WP in SBI and SoS BL's soooo I guess our oceanic's are just non existant right?). We are so bad we have guilds transferring to us seriously all I see is a butt hurt PRX butt buddy crying about everything. Heck our TS wasn't even open last night least not the one everyone knows

Wait wait our TS was working last night? Damn it to hell I was under the impression we were going to camp JP's while our TS was down!!!

Why is JQ 3rd and falling fast?

MMAC on JQ, it was 1st.

Those are just facts.

Edited by Walker, 30 November 2012 - 04:42 AM.

[Kam8T88]

Vihar, on 30 November 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

  Which is what everyone has been saying, and for some reason the SoS folks are raging over it.



  Oh, I see.

Those 40 man SoS groups are all underlevelled, undergeared noobs.

   That explains a lot.

Man people will say anything to feel better about losing won't they? How about instead of coming here to shit talk, you pick your teeth up off the floor and get ready for next week. It's not going to get any easier for you guys, and your excuses are only going to get more pathetic, and hurt your server even more.

[mikelima]

Vihar, on 30 November 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Oh, I see.

Those 40 man SoS groups are all underlevelled, undergeared noobs.

   That explains a lot.

man you sound incredibly butt hurt, does getting slammed by SoS hurt that much? tbh I enjoy slamming SBI guys and wiping them off the map. Its been fun and when they QQ like you do, it makes it all the sweeter

[Rookie of the year]

thank for transferring out JQ Walker/Menaace. We are happy and having fun now. MMAC it just a joke of our everyday topic now.

Edited by Rookie of the year, 30 November 2012 - 04:53 AM.

[Saruon]

Some great fights this week from both JQQ and SBI, looking forward to our future matches!

[mikelima]

Fannwong, on 30 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

Hello,

Here are some observations and analysis for the last 2 weeks:

SOS leadership understands 'total war' 100%. Total war includes politics, field warfare and psychology. Total war is unfair. Total war is the endgame for WvW.

1. SOS managed to put together a coalition of NA and Oceanic guilds to push. This speaks volumes about their leadership, being able to understand and align political viewpoints is a skill set in itself. Only about 1-2% of guilds understand and practice this meta game.

2. SOS understands that objectives are KEY and post scouts at these objectives. All objectives are upgraded to the max, including supply camps. SOS uses 20+ men mobile forces positioned at 2-3 different points of the map to respond to scout reports. These 20+ men will run to defend the objectives. The response time is consistent. This shows discipline and organization.

3. SOS understands psychology of using blitzkrieg type response. Overwhelming numbers destroys PUG morale in the long term. The PUG will leave WvW or change map after 2-3 wipes because they are not having fun.

your spot on... but the difference is you can write this down, post it on forums, tell others about it but unless you can execute correctly it fails and looks sad and can work against you.

what I have seen with playing in SoS is its no longer just a game of attacking and gaining locations, but gaining the right locations that force a 2v1 battle in your favour. Sometimes you just give locations up that will cause the attacking team more headaches in the longrun. which ones? well thats the fun of you finding out.

also the SoS guys work well together, our NA friends and oceanic buddies all seem to gel well. They don't step on each others toes and switch off commander tags when needed to make things run smoothly. It seems our commanders work very well together and know who should be doing what and when.

I enjoy fighting against WM, even more now that I know you guys understand how this game can and should be played.