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Where has everyone gone?


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#511 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:53 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 11 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

He's referring to the reason why they were able make effective bots, not the why they did it.
No, he totally didn't get the meaning about bots related as AI of enemies, when if the game was able to challenge the brain, a preprogrammed bot doing autoattack camping is just impossible :P
A continuous DE respawn, adding brainless fights where autotattack of 4 bots can manage the assault perfectly near the bridge ( a famous bot area most of us saw ;) ) is not exactly a challenging game, more a camp n buttonspam

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 02:59 AM.


#512 Dasryn

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:14 AM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

No, he totally didn't get the meaning about bots related as AI of enemies, when if the game was able to challenge the brain, a preprogrammed bot doing autoattack camping is just impossible :P
A continuous DE respawn, adding brainless fights where autotattack of 4 bots can manage the assault perfectly near the bridge ( a famous bot area most of us saw ;) ) is not exactly a challenging game, more a camp n buttonspam

oh! thanks for putting that in perspective, your logic is sound.  basically if GW2 gameplay challenged the player, then botting couldnt work as bots cant adapt to the situation.  they are mindless, set on a predetermined path.

hmm, this makes you wonder. ..

#513 Calypso589

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:21 AM

Sooooooooo getting the thread back on topic now......

People who like the game will play it.
People who dont, wont.

Thats just the way mmos go and theres always going to be a dropoff after an mmo releases and the hype dies down. Some people wont notice while others will see it a ton. In your case, it sounds like you were unlucky enough to be in a guild where the majority of your mates dropped off.

For starters, that is no way indicative of a dying game.

I reccommend you and your friends find like-minded individuals who enjoy the game and play together.

Post "LFG" in the official forums or here and I can slmost guarantee you a guild will find you just as quickly as one did me.

#514 blindude

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:22 AM

View PostRickter, on 12 December 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

oh! thanks for putting that in perspective, your logic is sound.  basically if GW2 gameplay challenged the player, then botting couldnt work as bots cant adapt to the situation.  they are mindless, set on a predetermined path.

hmm, this makes you wonder. ..
Yeah it makes me wonder how far would someone go in order to bash this game.If you thought the fanboys are blind and overzealous then you never met the haters.,
Even tera with full action combat had bots..there would be bots no matter how the game was UNLESS it was not to be a mmorpg (in that case there would be no demand for them).
Well there would probably be no bots if there was owpvp and you had penalty fordying though people would still try and bot anyway.

Edited by blindude, 12 December 2012 - 03:25 AM.


#515 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:26 AM

Uhm no, the thread is "where everyone gone" we talk about where  and why.

Speaking of which, i stilll remember one of the last chat we had inguild ( when around 19 20 players was still playing). Everyone was talking about where to move, which game was fun, some mentioning rift as going good , planetside2 incoming etc.
Then *poof*.

Agree calypso, we left should regroup with a last remains of players in love for the game. No doubt, not so hard find people talking about how amazing the game is on some content etc. Except they are inside a fractal, just remembering it ;)

#516 Dasryn

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:27 AM

View Postblindude, on 12 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Yeah it makes me wonder how far would someone go in order to bash this game.If you thought the fanboys are blind and overzealous then you never met the haters.,
Even tera with full action combat had bots..there would be bots no matter how the game was UNLESS it was not to be a mmorpg (in that case there would be no demand for them).
Well there would probably be no bots if there was owpvp and you had penalty fordying though people would still try and bot anyway.

you think im bashing the game?  idk if we've met but ive got a reputation on these forums (good or bad w/e tickles your fancy) of being a staunch supporter. . . . .

i just saw the guy's logic and im just trying to broaden my mind a little for the sake of civility.  so are you trying to stir up the kool aid? idk, your post is very misleading. . . .

#517 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:29 AM

If Rickter is bashing the game i'm santa :P
Continue your post after ... so you're not misunderstood, Rickter..

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 03:31 AM.


#518 blindude

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:37 AM

View PostRickter, on 12 December 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

you think im bashing the game?  idk if we've met but ive got a reputation on these forums (good or bad w/e tickles your fancy) of being a staunch supporter. . . . .

i just saw the guy's logic and im just trying to broaden my mind a little for the sake of civility.  so are you trying to stir up the kool aid? idk, your post is very misleading. . . .
I was refering to duskwolf who brought that up.I thought it was obvious..Anyway the point is that he is wrong.

#519 Dasryn

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:39 AM

View Postblindude, on 12 December 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I was refering to duskwolf who brought that up.I thought it was obvious..Anyway the point is that he is wrong.

no it wasnt obvious because you quoted me, and i was quoting Lucas Ashrock, not Duskwolf.  but thank you for clearing that up. :)

Edited by Rickter, 12 December 2012 - 03:43 AM.


#520 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:42 AM

It's Ashrock, i'm not a cousin of Lara :P
Continue your post after ..., i can answer, let's move on

#521 Dasryn

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:43 AM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

It's Ashrock, i'm not a cousin of Lara :P
Continue your post after ..., i can answer, let's move on

sorry, i edited :)

#522 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:48 AM

Continue with your point, i was interested after that

Quote

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#523 MazingerZ

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:27 AM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

No, he totally didn't get the meaning about bots related as AI of enemies, when if the game was able to challenge the brain, a preprogrammed bot doing autoattack camping is just impossible :P
A continuous DE respawn, adding brainless fights where autotattack of 4 bots can manage the assault perfectly near the bridge ( a famous bot area most of us saw ;) ) is not exactly a challenging game, more a camp n buttonspam

That's what I was getting at.  DuskWolf basically calls the game too easy and not requiring a ton of brain involvement.  Therefore, that's why there are bots.  He uses ME3 MP as a counter, saying that there are no effective bots in it because ME3 MP gameplay is so challenging that only a human brain can cope.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#524 blindude

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

omg this thread..If someone were to search the game before buying and read this forum section he would think that gw2 is the ultimate disgrace of the video game genre.Everyone hates it.
And why are there comparison with games like ME3?? It doesnt make any sence...not a bit.

#525 Cronos988

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:40 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 12 December 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

That's what I was getting at.  DuskWolf basically calls the game too easy and not requiring a ton of brain involvement.  Therefore, that's why there are bots.  He uses ME3 MP as a counter, saying that there are no effective bots in it because ME3 MP gameplay is so challenging that only a human brain can cope.

Except that this is a pretty major misunderstanding of how AI works and what it can do best.
it's not about how "challenging" a game is, is about how long it takes to "solve" the game.
There are tons of decent chess bots out there, that doesn't mean chess is not challenging. All it means is that we know the algorithm to "solve" chess. I would venture to say that it is much easier to make a chess bot that can beat an average chess player than to make a GW2 bot that can beat an average player.

On top of that, MMORPG Bots mainly do only very specific tasks that can easily be translated into an algorithm. Sure attacking normal mobs can be "botted", but doing Events or champions? Not quite so easy.

In any event, if I can make a bot for it, it's a bad game is a gross oversimplification. And you can take ME 3 as an example if you want to: The fact that the game is challenging means that there is an AI that can challenge the player, which in turn means that it is possible to write a "bot" (read: an AI) for ME 3 that can perform adequately.

#526 blindude

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:07 AM

View PostCronos988, on 12 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Except that this is a pretty major misunderstanding of how AI works and what it can do best.
it's not about how "challenging" a game is, is about how long it takes to "solve" the game.
There are tons of decent chess bots out there, that doesn't mean chess is not challenging. All it means is that we know the algorithm to "solve" chess. I would venture to say that it is much easier to make a chess bot that can beat an average chess player than to make a GW2 bot that can beat an average player.

On top of that, MMORPG Bots mainly do only very specific tasks that can easily be translated into an algorithm. Sure attacking normal mobs can be "botted", but doing Events or champions? Not quite so easy.

In any event, if I can make a bot for it, it's a bad game is a gross oversimplification. And you can take ME 3 as an example if you want to: The fact that the game is challenging means that there is an AI that can challenge the player, which in turn means that it is possible to write a "bot" (read: an AI) for ME 3 that can perform adequately.
Thank you for bringing some sence in this thread.You can make chess bots that could possibly beat or get at least a draw against grandmasters though making a bot for gw2 is probably easier than making a one that beat the average chess player.You can make bots for pretty much EVERY game out there if you really want to.

Edited by blindude, 12 December 2012 - 10:08 AM.


#527 Siniminister

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:56 PM

Since I'm apparently not allowed to create a thread tangential to this topic, I'm being forced to post here.  So be it.


What's your server, and how's its PvE activity?  Do people do something other than fractals?  Have you transferred to/from another server recently, and how do they compare?  I'm not looking for a gripefest, which seems to be what this mega-thread is about.  I want to hear from people who can compare populations.  Was the grass actually greener?

My guild is based in Maguuma.  One of our guildies headed over to Crystal Bay to get some WvW mapping done, and was stuck there for a week.  Two weeks later, he hasn't come back.  It turns out you can actually still get groups together for pretty much whatever you want to do, which is something I haven't seen in Maguuma for quite some time.  Moving an established guild (75-ish active-ish members, all upgrades built, 100K+ influence) to a new server is a daunting task, so I'd love to hear from people out there before we all jump.

#528 Mura

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:11 PM

As far as finding people to do dungeons with... one of my guildies told me about this awesome website, gw2lfg.com  

People are able to group together from different servers and zone into the same dungeon or fractal.  I didn't even know that was possible.  So people use that website to lfg across all servers.  It's very easy to use.   I used to be worried about how I was going to find a group to do CoF when I reached that level, but now I know I'll be fine.

Many of my guildies are playing PS2.  A handful of us joined another guild of friends and we're still having a great time in gw2.  GW2 is the perfect game for me, I'd be playing it right now if I didn't have a day job.

Edited by Mura, 12 December 2012 - 03:12 PM.


#529 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

View Postblindude, on 12 December 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Thank you for bringing some sence in this thread.You can make chess bots that could possibly beat or get at least a draw against grandmasters though making a bot for gw2 is probably easier than making a one that beat the average chess player.You can make bots for pretty much EVERY game out there if you really want to.
I don't really get where is the comparison between chess, calculations, move prediction, where technology is now able to do chess calculation using a mobile phone (pocket fritz) beating the biggest human brains , chessmasters, (better than deep blue)
and a stupid bot buttonspamming a retard event where brainless enemies charge a bridge, and 4 autoattack bots clean it (something even a kid using a ps3 joystick on autofire can do using a program for buttonspam).
Show me a ME3 bot able to play properly alone while you watch your movie :P

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.


#530 DuskWolf

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

Lucas is right, guys.

I've been playing ME3 a lot, and I've seen some bots, yes. But they're hilarious. The team treats them like pets because they're silly. They run into walls; They get confused as to where in the map they are; They shoot at the sky a lot, even when something is hurting them right in front of them; They stand still for banshees to one-shot them; They get into cover when nothing is shooting at them; They have no clue how to deal with objectives; And so, so much more. Ultimately it really is like having a zombie squadmate in a military scenario.

"Crap! We have two atlases, here! Get to cover!"
"BRAAAAINS?"

So yes, the bots exist, but as I've pointed out many times, they can't actually play the game. With a GW2 bot, you can set it running and go to bed because it will just play the game for you. It'll farm, do events, and be very capable; There's really nothing a player can do that a GW2 bot can't. And the reason for this is because GW2 combat is essentially just button-mash zerging that doesn't rely on tactical awareness, nor reaction times. So a bot is easy to write for it. But when you actually have a game that involves tactical awareness and reaction times? That's when you get really bad bots, like the ME3 bots.

ME3 requires you to think, GW2 does not. Go and watch some videos of both and you'll understand what I mean. You can get past most content in GW2 just by the merit of having grinded for good gear. That doesn't work at all in ME3 because the game requires the player to use their brain and react quickly. A bot doesn't have a brain, it can just do set tasks. Very simple set tasks. And GW2 is very simple.

This is why, as Lucas points out, you won't be able to find a bot that successfully plays ME3. It'll just be hilariously bad. You'll be amused by just how bad it is. The ladies and gents that make up my ME3 team have been very amused when we've had to PUG one or two more people and one of them has actually been a bot. The bot is like a piƱata; It'll get shot a lot and then it will die.

---Edit---

Just for blindude though who seems to be really oblivious to the topic at hand, I'll try and elaborate on why it's easy to write a successful bot for GW2, but hard to write one for ME3 (and impossible to make a successful one).

Okay, ME3 already has great AI. This is the thing. It's AI versus AI. If you have a team of people who've put together some truly amazing, tactical, reactive AI, then it's hard to write a bot that can play against that AI unless you have running access to what the AI is doing. Try to think about this in technical terms, please. I understand it might be hard, but try.

You're talking about writing a bot that can out think AI which can react to it tactically in a three dimensional space. This is actually a bigger deal than chess, because chess doesn't have the three-dimensionality of maps to deal with. Nor does GW2. GW2 is one, big open plain. If you get above a mob, all you get is 'invulnerable' ticks if you try to attack them. Sniping is not a thing in GW2. Mobs don't try to snipe you in GW2.

A mob can and will use higher ground cover to snipe you in Mass Effect 3. This is very confusing for a bot to react to, because it doesn't know how to deal with the situation tactically. Let's say that there is an atlas bearing down on the position of a bot, a phantom closing in from a flanking position to do a stealth one-hit kill, and a sniper in cover.

The ME3 bot can't understand the situation tactically. It can't evaluate the situation. It can't think and react in the way we can. The three-dimensionality of it just adds layers of confusion which makes it all the more difficult to write a bot for. You need a bot that can react tactically in a three-dimensional plane. You need a bot that can work with team mates strategically.

In GW2, you don't need to work with team mates, you just have to be there spamming keys. In GW2, you don't need to deal with three-dimensionality, because everything is on a flat plain. In GW2, you don't need to worry about tactics because mobs make a bee-line towards you (mobs never run away, or try to lure you into an ambush).

GW2 is just a matter of hitting buttons, it has no tactical inclinations. Again, you can't even snipe.

These differences in game style are why you can make a successful bot for GW2, but not for ME3.

---Edit---

I'll add a bit more. Since... you know, people who don't code... it's hard to explain things.

Okay, imagine it like this. GW2 is a flat board. There are no 'floors' to worry about. It's perfectly flat. All of your skills work on a flat board, you can't target high or low, you can't snipe, it's basically a two dimensional plane. Let's work with that. Now, mobs will make a bee-line towards you and never try to flank you. So on that two-dimensional plane you'll have dots coming from the same angle. And all of these dots are always visible. You just have to turn the bot to face the attacker and hit some attack buttons. If health is low, hit a heal, it's easy.

Now add three-dimensionality. Mobs can come from below and above, and they can attack you from below and above. The bot can no longer solely turn left/right, it has to deal with a sphere of interactivity. Now add in the tactical elements of cover use and cloaks which make targets less visible. It's now dealing with dots that can come from above and below, and dots that can turn invisible. It's also dealing with dots that can come from any direction, rather than just the one.

Now add in concerns like needing ammo, ammo location, concealed dots camping near ammo. Add in concealed targets that are waiting for you to be alone and in the open in order to kill you (the AI of ME3 is designed to go after lone wolf characters, and at that point you need to be able to communicate with other players that yu need an extraction, which a bot can't do). The bot has to deal with all of these extra concerns that aren't even an issue in GW2. This is why a successful bot hasn't been written for ME3, yet. There are so many variables. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands more variables in ME3, than the limited few in GW2.

And for me, those variables separate a good/fun game from a bad/unfun one.

Edited by DuskWolf, 12 December 2012 - 04:11 PM.


#531 MazingerZ

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:09 PM

What Dusk and Lucas are saying.  For some reason you ditched ME3 MP entirely and *ped on about chess.

Chess is a thinker's game, it us not one of split-second reaction like ME3 MP.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#532 DuskWolf

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

Exactly. See, there are great gaming moments that it appears that MMOs will never have, and that makes me sad. They're very social moments, too.

And I'm not even talking about healing stuffs.

That moment where in ME3 where you get blindsided by a banshee and a team mate reacts quickly and hits it with a rocket, saving you from a rather humiliating end. It's snap tactical decisions that you have to make in the spur of the moment. They feel awesome. It really brings you together as a team. That's what you can't write a bot for. That's what GW2 doesn't have. This is what depresses me about the current state of MMOs.

There are no brilliant moments in a game like GW2.

Can anyone name even one that doesn't involve a jumping puzzle? Honest question. Completely serious. My ears and mind are open, here. Name one truly great gaming moment you've had in GW2 that arised from the game being emergent and clever.

#533 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 12 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

What Dusk and Lucas are saying.  For some reason you ditched ME3 MP entirely and *ped on about chess.

Chess is a thinker's game, it us not one of split-second reaction like ME3 MP.
Uhm, you never heard of timed chess challenge? Ye, a split second rule. It's a special challenge for special brains.
Some do it even on multiple boards. You have 0 idea of what chess is if you think "well i have my time playing chess, gw2 is active"

If a bot is able to perform like a superb human, while you watch a movie, dealing with ME3 ingame AI and terrain perfectly alive, it just needs a voice module, and far from nuclear weapons, because he's a new race of machine way better than humans, Army would pay trillion dollars for that program instead of use soldiers ^_^ (This to enforce the big difference between a buttonspamming game and a game where brain is needed and key of the gameplay)

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 04:27 PM.


#534 DuskWolf

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

@Lucas

He's actually agreeing with that point.

#535 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

Oh, maybe i misunderstood what he meant.

#536 Kymeric

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:31 PM

For what it's worth, I've run across a good number of defeated bots.  So GW2 at least wins against them some of the time.

View PostSiniminister, on 12 December 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

What's your server, and how's its PvE activity?  Do people do something other than fractals?  Have you transferred to/from another server recently, and how do they compare?  I'm not looking for a gripefest, which seems to be what this mega-thread is about.  I want to hear from people who can compare populations.  Was the grass actually greener?

I've been on Sanctum of Rall since launch.  I see players around me in mid-level zones both during NA prime-time and Oceanic times, when servers are at their low point.  There are usually a handful of people at a given DE.  If someone announces a Champion in map chat, most of the time people will collect and fight it.  While the mass of spam in LA is for fractals, I still see people LFG for explorables.

#537 MazingerZ

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostLucas Ashrock, on 12 December 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Uhm, you never heard of timed chess challenge? Ye, a split second rule. It's a special challenge for special brains.
Some do it even on multiple boards. You have 0 idea of what chess is if you think "well i have my time playing chess, gw2 is active"

If a bot is able to perform like a superb human, while you watch a movie, dealing with ME3 ingame AI and terrain perfectly alive, it just needs a voice module, and far from nuclear weapons, because he's a new race of machine way better than humans, Army would pay trillion dollars for that program instead of use soldiers ^_^ (This to enforce the big difference between a buttonspamming game and a game where brain is needed and key of the gameplay)

Time is nothing.  Why do you think supercomputers are used in all those man vs machine matches.  They're faster.  They have the capability to play timed chess.

My point was chess requires thinking several steps ahead, it's not about reaction time, so much as processing speed and capacity.  Even in timed chess.

ME3 MP requires strategy and forethought, but its a game where you can die in the middle of it, not the end of it, for a bad move.  It requires physical reaction time and awareness.  It is also random and less predictive than chess.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#538 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostKymeric, on 12 December 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I've run across a good number of defeated bots.  So GW2 at least wins against them some of the time.


Where? Dungeons? Nope, you just need a bot following the last member of the group and spam all skills randomly, sometimes using the dodge button. Ye, sometimes he's dead, someone rev him, the fight keep going, and ends. And i used the most "challenging" kind of content where a bot "would" have difficulties but minimal and you wouldn't even realize what is going on and he's a bot except if badly programmed about the follow part. Outside, a bot can farm a legendary alone mats by mats while you do your stuff. Just picking where to farm. Like the famous bridge.

@MazingerZ Ye, clearly seems different. But when you play a challenging match timed to be faster, a dodge (move horse to the left side) or a walk back (move back a queen) is your win or loss of the match (you're 1shotted you need a rez)
And nope, as much fritz made his show, there are still humans able to compete and win against it. Processing speed and reaction time, ye.
Clearly, a chess program doesn't have to deal with terrain and me3 ai or an ambush thinking "crap, wait" etc. But i can tell you, a chess program would be a great core for a possible bot to deal with terrain and me3 ai.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#539 Cronos988

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

While you have nicely described why a bot is harder to create for ME 3 than for GW 2, My point was that whether or not you can create a bot for it is not equal to having a good game or not.

It seems to me that ME 3 is considered great here because it requires teamwork and tactical, lateral, thinking. You like games with tactical thinking and teamwork. I do too, actually. I really enjoy playing games like Dota 2 or Planetside. However, it does not follow that GW 2 is a bad game because it has a focus on other aspects of gameplay. Just like chess isn't a bad game because it requires no teamwork.

Lack of decent AI is something that is very common to MMORPGs, I don't think it is due to lazy developers though. There are probably technical reasons behind it. Games that have to simulate many battles at a time (The X-Series comes to mind) usually have very simple AI routines to cope with limited processing power.

#540 Lucas Ashrock

Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

I guess, in a more rude version of the point, it was: gw2 is a brainless game where people is illuded to even be better or pro dodging more or better timed, when a bot can do the same if his dodge routine triggered in time, and you're playing with a bot not even realizing it. Something ME3 would never see.
Ye, it's low-class programmer lazyness. ME3 programmers are not aliens, nor special brains able to create a proper ai while other humans are still working on it.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.





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