Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* - - - - 3 votes

Will Engineers ever be good?


  • Please log in to reply
79 replies to this topic

#61 Ragnadaam

Ragnadaam

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 307 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Guild Tag:[WoTU]
  • Server:Far Shiverpeaks

Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

View Postcoglin, on 16 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

How is a grenade nerf make the class nerfed all over the place? DO you make a living as a fiction writer?

Not only that, but TBH the nerf isn't even that bad. Grenade Kit as a condi damage kit is now amazing; the only thing that sucks now is spamming #1. Honestly I was irritated at first, but upon review, the GK nerf isn't even worth getting pissy over, maybe as a matter of principle, but objectively if anything the kit is better now.

#62 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postcoglin, on 16 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

How is a grenade nerf make the class nerfed all over the place? DO you make a living as a fiction writer?
Playing devil's advocate, there is a perception among some people that the grenade kit is so much better than everything else that it was pretty much mandatory, and thus nerfing grenades is a big nerf to engineers. Personally, I find other kits perfectly viable and nerfing grenades to be introducing balance, although the current state of grenades is still something I regard as pretty 'clunky'.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#63 coglin

coglin

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1402 posts
  • Profession:Engineer
  • Guild Tag:[MoG]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:32 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 16 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Playing devil's advocate, there is a perception among some people that the grenade kit is so much better than everything else that it was pretty much mandatory, and thus nerfing grenades is a big nerf to engineers. Personally, I find other kits perfectly viable and nerfing grenades to be introducing balance, although the current state of grenades is still something I regard as pretty 'clunky'.
What does that have to do with the other classes and the game as a whole?

His post suggested that this nerf was causing issues across the game as a whole and mentioned little of the profession itself. He continues by attempting to imply the game is in trouble, and that players are quitting the game in general du to a change to grenades.

#64 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:42 AM

Ummm...

The post that you'd quoted in the post of yours that I quoted said three things and implied a fourth:

1) Engineers can benefit from sigils now (not in doubt)
2) Engineers have been nerfed as a profession, not simply as a single kit (what the following posts discussed)
3) Mesmers do decent damage now. (not really relevant here)
4) (implied) Mesmers did not do decent damage before (again, not relevant to this thread)

The specific post in question said nothing about issues across the game as a whole, that the game is in trouble, or people are quitting because of the grenade nerf. He may have said that elsewhere, but not in the post that was being referred to.

In addressing the fourth point, I was commenting that some people basically see grenades as the backbone of the profession, and thus from their perspective the grenade change could be a big nerf to the profession as a whole. Personally, I see it more as bringing an internally overpowered kit more in line with others, and that we should wait until the weapon attributes to kits buff comes in before we make such calls, but I can see where the perception can come from.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#65 coglin

coglin

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1402 posts
  • Profession:Engineer
  • Guild Tag:[MoG]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

Yeah I must have confused that with another post.

He did specifically suggest we "got nerfed all over the place"

My issue is with that BS claim he made. What else got nerfed? Nothing. Elixir X got a bug removed and was reset back to its original stat. Which is not a nerf. Nothing else received a change that lessened its abilities. As a matter of fact, only one skill on one kit got nerfed. #1 skill on the grenade kit.   Other grenades got buffed as a matter of fact. Not to mention, the poster I quoted is notorious for posting mis information or false hood knowingly.

#66 Phineas Poe

Phineas Poe

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1179 posts
  • Location:Washington, DC
  • Profession:Engineer
  • Guild Tag:[EG]
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:16 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

They finally get to use sigils, yet get nerfed all over the place as well.
My mesmer is doing well, it's actually nice doing damage for once

Then by all means continue to play your Mesmer. I wouldn't want to discount anyone's own fun with the game. I'd like to see you play the class you enjoy. I've taken the time to level up a Guardian and Elementalist and I think they both suit their roles well. But there are many moments where I catch myself wishing I was on my Engineer. Elementalist dishes out incredible damage, but their control options just don't compare, not to mention its armor might as well be made up of paper plates. Guardian can soak up a ton of damage, but getting hit with a ton of conditions threatens me in ways that the Elixir Gun once solved easily by just switching to it with Kit Refinement. Not to mention the severe lack of ranged makes PvP very much a headache. I haven't played Mesmer yet honestly because all the purple butterfly explosions don't much appeal to me, but all of these classes have strengths and weaknesses.

That you focus on all of the weaknesses of the Engineer isn't particularly fair, and it does no one any service suggesting that the Engineer on the whole has been nerfed with this patch. Having my Superior Sigil of Blood proc when using the Flamethrower makes a facetank build even facetankier. On the coattails of a patch that actually made the Tool Kit a viable option. I don't think I've ever been happier with where the Engineer was at. And I'm sorry that you're not.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 17 December 2012 - 08:17 AM.


#67 lalangamena

lalangamena

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:52 AM

seriously,
yes, they nerfed the auto attack but buffed both flash grenades and poison grenades
also with the new fixed shrapnel trait 15% to bleed on hit  (four chances to bleed on each attack!!!)

and with sigil changes, the grenades are actually buffed.

this is better now.
before the changes, all you do is spam 1 all the time, now you use the rest of the grenades.

the amount of meaningless QQ is too damn high....

#68 Evans

Evans

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 424 posts
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:46 AM

I don't know why I ever disliked the profession :zip:
Perhaps it's because I had a fascination for the flamethrower, which I now find a bit lacking.

Anyway, I have never felt as good in a group as I did with my new engineer in AC story. Lv14 gear on me, I still managed to usually be the last one standing, whilst throwing out all kinds of conditions, combo fields and healing for the entire party. My own DPS might have been lower than the others, but I more than made up for it with all those effects!

I love my engineer now ^_^

#69 GuanglaiKangyi

GuanglaiKangyi

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2216 posts

Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

Is this guy actually trying to claim Engineer has bad DPS?  He should try a ranger or necromancer then.

#70 Mel

Mel

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:22 AM

I see this complaint over and over, and its always on a character geared toward team support.

My guild has several engineers, and they are all valued effective members. I'm only just starting to level mine but of the 5 other classes i have leveled to 80 The differences i see at early levels are:
Engineer CC is well on par with my necro--better in burst damage than her when I use pistols and pain inverter+nadees! Boom Boom  Pew Pew!
AoE damage is on par with my ele; see boom boom pew pew statement above
Survivability has proven equally on par with my Ranger
Support could be as good as my Guardian.

I just don't see the weakness that the OP suggests; and I only see the class strengthening as I continue to level up. I'm sorry if this sounds elitist--and I'm not trying to, I've only cracked 40 recently--but are you sure you built to the right traits? You mention several classes in another post. Which of them have you played to endgame?  What are you wanting the Engi to do that it is not doing? Others probably created--and shared--a build to let you do it.

Edited by Mel, 02 January 2013 - 12:32 AM.


#71 Elysen

Elysen

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 410 posts
  • Location:England.
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:20 AM

View PostMel, on 02 January 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

...Support could be as good as my Guardian...

Bull. Your Guardian must be the most selfishly specced pile of garbage ever. Even then, claiming this would be unbelievable.

#72 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:23 AM

Super Elixir on the elixir gun used to be pretty broken. Even now, good timing with Kit Refinement can allow you to have at least one healing light field down permanently, and adding medkit with Packaged Stimulants and you're a long way to what's probably the closest thing to a monk in GW2, and that's just to start off with.

A typical guardian wins out on damage prevention (especially against enemies resistant to CC) and boons, and a guardian that specialises all the way towards support can match the engineer for healing as well and thus come out ahead overall, but Mel's claim is not as unbelievable as you say.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#73 DreadlockrastaGW

DreadlockrastaGW

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 137 posts
  • Guild Tag:[YoLo]

Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:48 AM

I have a 80 of every class now, and Engineer easily requires the most skill to be good at. However, if you get really good at it, it can be amazing. Currently I run HGH build, and it is pretty good damage (dat might buff), with good survivability.

I was not able to try grenades before the nerf, but it seems like they cater to cond builds now with the #2.

IMO:This game is far from balanced when it comes to different professions, however if you want a challenge play engineer for wvw. I'm going to be interested to see what changes come in the next patch.

#74 Mel

Mel

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostXephenon, on 02 January 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Bull. Your Guardian must be the most selfishly specced pile of garbage ever. Even then, claiming this would be unbelievable.
my first reply! I'm on pins and needles :D

http://www.guildwars...-control-build/ You tell me.

I didn't build my Guardian to babysit, but it does support my team and my guild has not complained as of yet for how I play it. Like I admitted, I've only hit 40 on the engi as of now, but the healing turret seems to be a welcome sight when I plop it down. I expect Elixir Infused Bombs will improve the support even more if I chose to go that route but I'll probably go with a gernade kit instead.

#75 GuanglaiKangyi

GuanglaiKangyi

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2216 posts

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:34 AM

View PostXephenon, on 02 January 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Bull. Your Guardian must be the most selfishly specced pile of garbage ever. Even then, claiming this would be unbelievable.

The guardian's best support feature is stability and Wall of Reflection.  Beyond that they aren't that great as support.  Their healing is average at best (the only good heal they actually have is roll heal) and their symbols cover a fairly small area, even with Exaltation traited.  They are extremely strong frontliners and offensive buffers, and have comparable and more reliable melee DPS as warriors, and probably the best ranged damage in the game, but I don't think that falls under "support" the way you're using it here.

If anything, the best feature of the guardian is that their support is inherent; they don't have to sacrifice anything to get it.  Consecrations and shouts can both be taken without any trait investment outside of what you're already speccing to get DPS, and you can easily drop a Wall of Reflection at melee range to neutralize all projectiles aimed at anyone behind you while you tear things up with a greatsword.  So yeah, if the question is whether a full-offense guardian out-supports a full-offense engineer, it probably does.  If it's whether a defensively specced guardian out-supports a defensively-specced engineer, he probably doesn't.

#76 Elysen

Elysen

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 410 posts
  • Location:England.
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:40 AM

View PostMel, on 02 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

...I didn't build my Guardian to babysit, but it does support my team and my guild has not complained as of yet for how I play it. Like I admitted, I've only hit 40 on the engi as of now, but the healing turret seems to be a welcome sight when I plop it down...

This is because people see a Guardian and think to themselves "hey, look, there's a player who is meant to do nothing to benefit themselves but allow me to be a lazy player and not dodge because they can heal me up and remove conditions from me"! Not to mention, a lot of what Guardians do is "invisible" as it is a lot of boon application and condition removal - players don't notice this.

In response to your feedback when you drop healing turret etc. this is because player don't expect Engineers to be supportive. Why? Because not enough players have tried an Engineer as people cry out "OMG I HEARD THIS CLASS IS SO BROKEN IM NOT PLAYING IT", or possibly they don't know the capability of the class due to them being "rare". Yes thats right, I called them rare. Maybe once per 7 PUGs I find an Engineer? Even then, it's almost always a Grenadier.

Alternatively, a surprising number of players expect  Grenade #1 spam because they were totally unaware it was "nerfed" on the 14th Dec.

The regular players need to show Engineers some love. Or at least learn the benefits of the profession instead of being ignorant and expecting the token Guardian in the group to pick up all the problems.

I must admit, I'm not 100% on how much support specifically traited Engineers can actually offer, but I can damn well guarentee it's not as much support as a Guardian would be.

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 02 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

The guardian's best support feature is stability and Wall of Reflection.  Beyond that they aren't that great as support.  Their healing is average at best (the only good heal they actually have is roll heal) and their symbols cover a fairly small area, even with Exaltation traited ... If anything, the best feature of the guardian is that their support is inherent; they don't have to sacrifice anything to get it.  Consecrations and shouts can both be taken without any trait investment outside of what you're already speccing to get DPS

Firstly, offtopic but a Guardian cannot be offensive while being supportive outside virtues, as they will have to spec away from Valor/Honor and more into Zeal for Spirit Weapons. An Engineer can be more offensive while offering a good amount of support.

It's no secret a Guardians heals are meager. Mostly because of ANs stubbornness of removing every aspect of the "holy trinity". But are an Engineers heals amazing? Not on your nellie, the only build I see as an actual "dedicated" healer is a Hydromancer.

The initial point I made wasn't "Engineers aren't supportive", because they bloody well can be. I just claimed it was absurd to compare the Engineers supportive capability to a Guardian, specifically one who knows how to use a Staff well.

Enough of the Guardian talk, this is an Engineer thread. I just struggle to hide my love for my main.

Edited by Xephenon, 02 January 2013 - 09:03 AM.


#77 dawdler

dawdler

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 740 posts
  • Server:Piken Square

Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostXephenon, on 02 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

But are an Engineers heals amazing? Not on your nellie, the only build I see as an actual "dedicated" healer is a Hydromancer.
Well, actually they are. At least in one spec - bomb healer. You can basicly outheal anything you meet except very large groups. You'll have multiple non-stacking regens and the bomb heals popping every blast. For the team, not only do you have the actual bomb heals but also stacking 1+ mins of regen in seconds through a combo of elixir gun/healing turret/etc. Since kits take after sigils, you can get even more heals now.

The bomb healer engineer is truly a dedicated healer, because you physically go to another player and heal him up.

That said, its rather boring offensivly, lol.

#78 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

Super Elixir was pretty broken when it was doing the impact heal per second. Now it's been fixed, it's about the same as a guardian can pull off with healing symbols - except the engineer can keep them down for longer. If you take Packaged Stimulants, that's 3000 plus 1.5 times Healing Power that you can throw at someone who's injured. You've also got a 10 second area regeneration you can drop every forty seconds, and if you've got a full set of Superior Runes of Dwayna or another set of runes that trigger on using a heal skill, an engineer with a medkit can trigger it on the rune's recharge.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#79 Mel

Mel

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:32 AM

Xephenon I don't want to derail this further but...did you look at any of the builds in that link?  Condi Control 2.0 IS a support build that is designed specifically to do what you say can't be done: provide support while dealing damage and be respecced for effective--not great; "effective"--Spirit Weapons use. Methinks you PuGs too much and being the token Guardian may be souring your view.  Most of my teams (not all, but most) are typically guild teams and we think before we roll in a dungeon. unless we've been drinking; then all bets are off...

I know gernades got nerfed and it is a tossup between them with extra shrapnel bleeding or bombs and higher utility. I just don't know where I'll be heading in either regard because--
*deep breath* I'M ONLY LEVEL 40 ENGI! But from a utility standpoint I feel the engi is a very solid character and have seen that it can be when grouping with support engis. I'm not the only one who thinks this nor is it limited to PvE:


This and guild feedback is where my ideas came from when I decided to, eh, why not roll an engineer. Yes, I know he builds and gears himself towards sPvP, but the core strategies described can easily be adapted to PvE and WvW play.  But look at his HoT in the video. Its pretty impressive; any guardian will agree to that. And there are a lot of boons popping in that video too.  Condition removal, yes; its hard to beat a guardian running Pure of Voice, SY and all utility shouts. I'll concede that because...I know that. But with a HoT that looks to be higher in AoE to the team than Guardian and the boons he pops in the vid? A support geared Engineer is in contention as much as a guardian.  I know that HoT and applying boons are not the end all be all of support construction (by support, I am describing the skills that improve your teams health, improve their fighting capability, and reduce their damage or mitigate incoming damage. To be clear) but they are 2 of the big 3:
prevent damage
heal the team
remove negative conditions

Xephenon...you called Bull to my first statement and implied that my Guardian (my main too) is garbage. Just want to let you--and others reading this thread--know that I'm not talking out of my rear here. I did some research before I made the statements in my OP. I did some research before I even rolled an engineer.  I consider myself an average player at least; used to be pretty good in GW1 on my monk. But she's gone, along with the rest of the holy trinity. We all play what we have.

And I think we have a good class in the engineer. It's in the hands of us--the players--to use them to their potential.

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 02 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

The guardian's best support feature is stability and Wall of Reflection.  Beyond that they aren't that great as support.  Their healing is average at best (the only good heal they actually have is roll heal) and their symbols cover a fairly small area, even with Exaltation traited.  They are extremely strong frontliners and offensive buffers, and have comparable and more reliable melee DPS as warriors, and probably the best ranged damage in the game, but I don't think that falls under "support" the way you're using it here.
Actually, you forgot Aegis application spam, the excellent condition removal Xephenon mentioned, and the fact that a good guardian will be dropping their symbols for greatest effect (usually right on top of the warrior{s} that wants to facetank; we're usually right there with them anyhoo). The counter argument is that the mobs will move and attack squishies and that symbol will be useless. I counter that--again, the team in all its players--should be willing to move to a symbol if they see a Guardian drop one, move so their projectiles fire through it if they want conditions off, or be controlling the mob in the first place so its not controlling them.

A bad team (read greedy PuG) will, as described, expect the guardian to magically extend its shout range from 600 to 6000 and QQ when they die; blame the support characters and Waypoint to the start/leave. And don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you is my belief.  they're the same glass cannon facetankers I was expected to heal when I PuG'd as a monk in GW1 and I have neither the time nor naivete to put up with such selfish nonsense anymore.

Oh, and Rangers rip us apart on ranged damage if they spec for it. Well, my ranger did before I rerolled her...I may work on that next. She was kinda fun.

Edited by Mel, 02 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#80 GuanglaiKangyi

GuanglaiKangyi

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2216 posts

Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:07 PM

Guardian symbol has a radius of 180 when untraited, and a bit less than 300 when traited.  That is barely enough range to cover the players standing right next to you, and since they're also a big source of damage it means it's only going to be affecting allies meleeing the same target as you.  For the most part, people aren't going to move into your symbols nor should you expect them to; at best a traited symbol with full boon duration boosts gives 12 seconds of regeneration or retaliation and you have to sit in it for 6 seconds.  That's not a "OMG drop everything and get in here" priority buff.  Along the same lines, Aegis is a one-shot thing.  It blocks one big hit, but the problem is that a lot of the big boss attacks that OHKO people aren't actually only one hit.  Lots of them are 3-4 smaller hits that deal 3-4k per shot, as opposed to one big one that deals 15k.

As for a DPS spec versus a heal spec, you can easily trait for both at the same time.  Spirit Weapons don't need that much investment to get a decent chunk of DPS out it; Sword of Justice is the only one that does any real DPS and traiting both Spirit Weapon Duration and cooldown buffs only actually gives you an extra 15% uptime on it, when it's already 50% uptime.  Fiery Wrath is only 10 points into Zeal and is the only real DPS boost you need from that line, so you can still go 30 into Honor and Valor.  Honor is a particularly good line because it gives you access to the best support traits and the best DPS traits, and you can take them all at the same time.  Superior Aria gives extra shout uptime, while Empowering Might gives a substantial damage boost to the entire party, and Elusive Power is pretty much free damage (time your roll between the 2nd and 3rd hits of your auto-attack chain so the auto interrupts it, thus burning endurance without actually wasting time rolling).  The only real tradeoff you need to make between support and damage is Two-Handed Mastery vs. Pure of Voice, which is basically condition removal vs. extra damage.

By comparison, my DPS-specced Engineer takes a big hit in overall damage if she wants to get support.  The only "overlapping" support trait is Kit Refinement, which can be taken for free since Tools is a high damage line to begin with.  The other popular support stuff (bomb healing, etc.) are all in lines that require heavy investment and do not offer much advantage in terms of raw damage output, comparatively.  On the other hand, of course, an engineer specced for full support gets way more than a guardian since what else does a guardian have other than the stuff I described above?  Not a whole lot.  Engineers can take bomb healing, elixirs, Kit Refinement, etc. for plenty of defensive buffs by comparison.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users