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Theives and perma stealth


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#1 Bloodtau

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:51 PM

will reporting theives doing this exploit result in anything?
or don't arenanet care any more? Not actually heard about any bans in a while...

#2 BabelFish

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:04 PM

They aren't exploiting anything. It's a bug with the game engine that happens randomly.

#3 BnJ

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:22 PM

What exactly is being exploited?

#4 Stellarthief

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:25 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 24 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

will reporting theives doing this exploit result in anything?
or don't arenanet care any more? Not actually heard about any bans in a while...

How long are they "perma stealthed" for?

Without exploiting it is easy to reach 10 secs straight of stealth..

#5 lorschy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:40 AM

this is no exploit, the thief is only using utility skills ( healing skills ) that give him stealth.

You might want to take a look here:

http://wiki.guildwar...of_thief_skills

Also you can use combos to gain more stealth , eg, blinding power => heart seeker ( if you are running D/P ) .

#6 WandererOA

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

I can chain stealth for about 23 seconds....  ;)

Edited by WandererOA, 27 November 2012 - 10:45 AM.


#7 antesha

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostWandererOA, on 27 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I can chain stealth for about 23 seconds....  ;)

can you write entire action down please?...and does it have any practical use?

ty

#8 WandererOA

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

View Postantesha, on 27 November 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

can you write entire action down please?...and does it have any practical use?

ty

The practical use would be to go through an area with an enemy zerg or just to scout undetected (WvWvW)

With the Meld with Shadows trait (increase stealth duration by 1 second):

- Shadow Refuge ->  4 seconds of stealth
- End of Shadow Refuge -> 11 seconds of stealth (stealth duration increase while you are inside the shadow refuge)
- Hide in Shadows -> 4 seconds of stealth
- Blinding Powder -> 4 seconds of stealth

You could increase the duration of stealth even more with Hidden Thief (steal gives 2 seconds of stealth) and the combo Black Powder + Heartseeker (I don't know for sure but I think this gives you another 4 seconds of stealth) and you don't even need an enemy to pull any of those off.

#9 antesha

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:14 PM

View PostWandererOA, on 27 November 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

The practical use would be to go through an area with an enemy zerg or just to scout undetected (WvWvW)

With the Meld with Shadows trait (increase stealth duration by 1 second):

- Shadow Refuge ->  4 seconds of stealth
- End of Shadow Refuge -> 11 seconds of stealth (stealth duration increase while you are inside the shadow refuge)
- Hide in Shadows -> 4 seconds of stealth
- Blinding Powder -> 4 seconds of stealth

You could increase the duration of stealth even more with Hidden Thief (steal gives 2 seconds of stealth) and the combo Black Powder + Heartseeker (I don't know for sure but I think this gives you another 4 seconds of stealth) and you don't even need an enemy to pull any of those off.


ty, I was searching something for lurking in WvWvW

#10 Bloodtau

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM

isn't there suppose to be a debuff that stops this happening?
There was a guy in WVW actually attacking while in stealth, popping out for stealth for not even half a second and going back in to continue attacking. Luckily we screen shotted the guy and about 30 of us in WVW reported him so fingers crossed he got a ban.

#11 BnJ

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:04 PM

Sounds like you ran into the WvW culling issue, not some thief exploit.

ANet are aware of the problem and are working on it.

http://www.guildwars...fix-it-culling/

#12 Drtrider

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

isn't there suppose to be a debuff that stops this happening?
There was a guy in WVW actually attacking while in stealth, popping out for stealth for not even half a second and going back in to continue attacking. Luckily we screen shotted the guy and about 30 of us in WVW reported him so fingers crossed he got a ban.

Sounds like most my WvW matches running as a P/D condition thief. I love sitting inside zergs killing people off. It's a play-style, not an exploit. Granted, there is a rendering issue that Anet does need to fix. However, even with a fix, I'll still be using this build.

#13 Bloodtau

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostShroomhead Fred, on 27 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Sounds like you ran into the WvW culling issue, not some thief exploit.

ANet are aware of the problem and are working on it.

http://www.guildwars...fix-it-culling/

Fine with every other profession and theives. Don't think just one guy would be an exception to the coding. Was pretty much an exploit

#14 Lalnuir

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:39 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

isn't there suppose to be a debuff that stops this happening?
There was a guy in WVW actually attacking while in stealth, popping out for stealth for not even half a second and going back in to continue attacking. Luckily we screen shotted the guy and about 30 of us in WVW reported him so fingers crossed he got a ban.

View PostBloodtau, on 27 November 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Fine with every other profession and theives. Don't think just one guy would be an exception to the coding. Was pretty much an exploit

You only get the revealed debuff if your attack lands while you are in stealth. If you begin the animation just before your stealth ends you don't get revealed as you're technically not in stealth when they attack lands.
So even if they fix the culling issues you can chain CnD together all day long with the right traits and only appear for 1/4 a second each time.

#15 Bloodtau

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

View PostLalnuir, on 27 November 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

You only get the revealed debuff if your attack lands while you are in stealth. If you begin the animation just before your stealth ends you don't get revealed as you're technically not in stealth when they attack lands.
So even if they fix the culling issues you can chain CnD together all day long with the right traits and only appear for 1/4 a second each time.

Wow, and thief players wonder why everybody wants their class nerfed....

#16 Lalnuir

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 27 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Wow, and thief players wonder why everybody wants their class nerfed....

Oh of course. what other reaction should i of expected >.<

It's not an issue with the thief class it is an issue with being able to contest/capture points in WvW while in stealth.
If you die to a thief using nothing but a CnD every 3-4 seconds then you are a terrible player.

#17 Al Shamari

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:35 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 27 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Wow, and thief players wonder why everybody wants their class nerfed....
So please tell me, if stealth is nerfed... what would the reasoning behind playing a short range profession with less toughness than a Warrior and a smaller health pool than an Elementalist be?

#18 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:41 AM

I made my Thief perma invisible......i deleted it today :P

Not range, not melee....low HP, medium armor.....take away disappearing act.....what you have left ?

Seriously they know to be annoying in WvW makin themselves invisible a lot, but guess what i can do that on my Mesmer....with only difference mesmer`s are kind of useful in WvW !

#19 Drtrider

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:56 AM

Don't forget the fact that mesmers and a good engineer can do almost the same thing. Also take note that a thief that chains stealth like this is using almost all of his resources. Once immobilize and a hundred blades or any other spike on him and he's gonna die. Simple as that. There is a price to using every single utility as a means of stealth.

#20 Budzasty

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:07 AM

Yes, you can get perma-stealth with thief when using either cloak and dagger like Lalnuir described or using smokescreen and heartseeker combo.

No, it's useless for killing people but it was(is till next patch when they'll fix it) exploited to contest points in WvW making it impossible to capture say supply camp.

Anyways stealth should just go away imo, it's unfun mechanic for everyone but user(thief/mesmer) and in it's current state creates shallow gameplay. Instead thief should get more evades/teleports. Doubt it'll happen as Anet is quite clueless about thief balance so far but at least some stealth detection skills should be available as a counter.

Edited by Budzasty, 28 November 2012 - 01:08 AM.


#21 Minion

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:18 AM

View PostLalnuir, on 27 November 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

You only get the revealed debuff if your attack lands while you are in stealth. If you begin the animation just before your stealth ends you don't get revealed as you're technically not in stealth when they attack lands.
So even if they fix the culling issues you can chain CnD together all day long with the right traits and only appear for 1/4 a second each time.

this is, of course, a waste of time and actually a good thing if thieves are doing this. It means they cannot output quick spikes, instead waiting to troll with their cloak. No backstab=no kill. If this is happening, you just kill the thief outright.

Basically, Revealed is there to de-compress damage and prevent the constant cycle of CaD->Backstab. It does that so you have time to react. It was really quite forgiving of bad players.

Edited by Minion, 28 November 2012 - 01:42 AM.


#22 Lalnuir

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:41 AM

View PostAl Shamari, on 28 November 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

So please tell me, if stealth is nerfed... what would the reasoning behind playing a short range profession with less toughness than a Warrior and a smaller health pool than an Elementalist be?

Eles, thieves and guardians all have the same base hp.

View PostAlex Dimitri, on 28 November 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

I made my Thief perma invisible......i deleted it today :P

Not range, not melee....low HP, medium armor.....take away disappearing act.....what you have left ?

Seriously they know to be annoying in WvW makin themselves invisible a lot, but guess what i can do that on my Mesmer....with only difference mesmer`s are kind of useful in WvW !

Thieves are incredibly useful in WvW even if you don't stealth contest points.
Great mobility, great single target burst, great aoe damage, the ability to quickly solo non-upgraded supply camps and enough stealth skills to easily spy on enemy zergs with minimal risk. What more do you need?


View PostMinion, on 28 November 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

this is, of course, a waste of time and actually a good thing if thieves are doing this. It means they cannot output quick spikes, instead waiting to troll with their cloak. No backstab=no kill. If this is happening, you just kill the thief outright.

I think you missed the entire point. You never chain CnD to kill people you do it to remain perma stealthed while inside the capture point of say a supply camp in WvW preventing the enemy from capping it until your reinforcements can arrive.
Yes it has some counters but when groups of 20-30 players are trying to cap a supply camp it is easy to avoid aoes and hit players or pets not standing in aoes.

#23 Minion

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:46 AM

View PostLalnuir, on 28 November 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:


I think you missed the entire point. You never chain CnD to kill people you do it to remain perma stealthed while inside the capture point of say a supply camp in WvW preventing the enemy from capping it until your reinforcements can arrive.
Yes it has some counters but when groups of 20-30 players are trying to cap a supply camp it is easy to avoid aoes and hit players or pets not standing in aoes.

That's a very niche reason to destroy stealth altogether. It's not exactly game breaking, and there are ways to counter it. Thief-checking. It's not even as bad as Portal mesmers who break into your base, drop a portal and spawn an army.

#24 Abobalypse

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

Don't forget the smoke screen + cluster bomb spam combo for area stealth. Uses less utility slots than trying to cram in everything else. Although you can chain that with shadow refuge, blinding powder and hide in shadows too, as well as the black powder + heartseeker combo and steal in a pinch.

As for how useful it is, don't judge an entire subset of players by a small group of thieves trolling wvw camps (will probably get fixed to act more like spvp control points anyway, at least it should - and I'm a "perma" stealth thief). It's just another way to play the game that some people happen to enjoy, myself included. I'm well aware of the risk/reward and find it useful to scout an area, get myself out of a tight spot or unexpected zerg (never said I was a good scout) or if I'm feeling lucky, take on a small group of players and play guerrilla style.

I like playing D/P for this reason, and it's a shame that its so easily dismissed because of the rooting on the 3 skill. If you time it right it's still a decent gap closer but I rarely use it anyway, what with shadowstep, steal, heartseeker and infiltrator's arrow all being such good closers.

#25 Lalnuir

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostMinion, on 28 November 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

That's a very niche reason to destroy stealth altogether. It's not exactly game breaking, and there are ways to counter it. Thief-checking. It's not even as bad as Portal mesmers who break into your base, drop a portal and spawn an army.

I never said to get rid of stealth all together, in fact this is what I said.

View PostLalnuir, on 28 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

It's not an issue with the thief class it is an issue with being able to contest/capture points in WvW while in stealth.
If you die to a thief using nothing but a CnD every 3-4 seconds then you are a terrible player.

In spvp you cannot capture/contest points while in stealth or invul. This would be a simple change to WvW that prevents one thief from delaying a zerg of 30+ people.

#26 Soki

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 27 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Wow, and thief players wonder why bad players wants their class nerfed....
ftfy

#27 Setima

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:37 PM

Okay here's the thing about Permanent Stealth. First, you'll need to use Dagger / Pistol. This gives you Black Powder and Heartseeker. In your traits you'll want to take:

Shadow Arts
~Infusion of Shadow- gain 2 initiative when using a move that stealths you
~Patience- gain initiative faster while in stealth

Acrobatics
~Quick Recovery- gain 2 initiative every 10 seconds

The Acrobatics trait isn't really required but the two in Shadow Arts are. You'll want to use Hide in Shadows as your heal and have Shadow Refuge as a utility. Neither skill is 100% required, but they are pretty standard for almost all Thieves anyway.

There are multiple ways to pull this off, but here's my way (and it makes it easy). Stand so you're running into a wall. Hit 5 to use Black Powder, hit 2 to Heartseeker inside it. Tap forward quickly after the Heartseeker to reorient your direction and use Heartseeker again. Reorient yourself again and Heartseeker again. This will add about 2 seconds of Stealth with every Heartseeker while giving you 2 Initiative back everytime you use Heartseeker. After 3 Heartseekers the Black Powder smoke field will disappear and you'll have to let your initiative regenerate a bit before repeating the sequence. I found it very hard to stack the stealth any further past 11 seconds repeating this sequence over and over but if you have a high time left on your stealth and drop Shadow Refuge you can make it hit 15 seconds. You must make sure to tap forward into the wall between the Heartseeker or else you'll go flying off away from your combo field due to how you seem to land facing the camera after every Heartseeker (slightly annoying). If you can keep a rhythm going, you'll have just enough initiative to remain in stealth until you get bored or mess up the timing. If you do mess up your Heartseekers somehow, you can use Hide in Shadows or Shadow Refuge to buy yourself more time to get back into your rotation.

Problems with this setup? There's two. First, you need ALL your initiative to maintain the rotation, so you won't be using this setup to kill anything or anyone at all, this is merely a way to stall for time in the camps in WvW or to wander around the maps in stealth as a scout. Second, your position is given away everytime you use Black Powder. Other players can't see you, but they will see the smoke ring that appears. I would suggest staying out of line of sight to other players as much as possible, such as behind trees, buildings, logs, etc so you can remain in stealth and not be discovered. And that is the trick! Enjoy yummy info!

Edited by Setima, 28 November 2012 - 09:40 PM.


#28 Bakelith

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:12 PM

Quote

Thieves are incredibly useful in WvW even if you don't stealth contest points.
Great mobility, great single target burst, great aoe damage, the ability to quickly solo non-upgraded supply camps and enough stealth skills to easily spy on enemy zergs with minimal risk. What more do you need?
Where's the AoE? Cluster Bomb is too slow and Pistol Whip needs to be in melee range. Ele and necro are far better for AoE.

Edited by Bakelith, 29 November 2012 - 10:14 PM.


#29 MonsterDemon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostLalnuir, on 28 November 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

Thieves are incredibly useful in WvW even if you don't stealth contest points.
Great mobility, great single target burst, great aoe damage, the ability to quickly solo non-upgraded supply camps and enough stealth skills to easily spy on enemy zergs with minimal risk. What more do you need?

A nerf?  Yes, that's all we need.  A major nerf or a new skill for other classes called "expose hidden thieves".

#30 Jiminy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostMonsterDemon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

A nerf?  Yes, that's all we need.  A major nerf or a new skill for other classes called "expose hidden thieves".

Excellent idea. As this should also detect hidden Thieves, Mesmers and Engis, I think it should also be an elite skill anyone can take. Problem solved all round :)




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