23 replies to this topic

[Blazen56k]

Anyone interested in forming a buying group?

[Nembool]

If by "buy group" you mean an investment group that trades in items for the purpose of making gold, then yes.

Few questions:-
1. What sort of buy-in are we talking about (gold value)?
2. Any restrictions on what to buy/trade?
3. How is the group fund held (by one person or collectively/individually)?

[Blazen56k]

Currently, this is a concept only.  But the purpose would be simple, we identify items that are either likely to increase in price because of low supply, some near future event, and also have a large available supply wall relatively close to buy orders.  I've been doing this to moderate success for awhile now, I'm at around 1500g liquid with another 500-600g in long term investments.  My biggest obstacle now is space.  But as to your questions;

1. What sort of buy-in are we talking about (gold value)
This would vary depending on which markets we're investing in but each member would probably need a minimum of 300g, recommended 500g.
2. Any restrictions on what to buy/trade?
Our goal would be to increase net worth but we'd need restrictions on when and how to enter and leave a market.
3. How is the group fund held (by one person or collectively/individually?
I think it best if everyone held their own money since bag space will likely be just as important as capital.

[ATC_06]

I'd like to partake in such a group, sharing ideas and speculations.

[Scubazombeh]

OP, I was considering this, like it was a mutual fund of sorts.

However, there is no advantage provided here. In the real world, funds are managed by people who know the market place and have time to handle transactions.

In this game, the market is so simple that you do not need people managing money. Rather just invest it yourself.

In addition, there are very few opportunities in the game now to make a huge profit. There are probably only two or three items that have lower enough value that it can skyrocket. Once that goes up, there will be very little opportunity for arbitrage

[Vysander]

Scubazombeh, on 26 November 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

OP, I was considering this, like it was a mutual fund of sorts.

However, there is no advantage provided here. In the real world, funds are managed by people who know the market place and have time to handle transactions.

In this game, the market is so simple that you do not need people managing money. Rather just invest it yourself.

In addition, there are very few opportunities in the game now to make a huge profit. There are probably only two or three items that have lower enough value that it can skyrocket. Once that goes up, there will be very little opportunity for arbitrage

I think the idea of this group would be more focused on market manipulation rather then day trading. Say, 20 people with 500g a piece. That is alot of leverage to make an item look more in demand then it is.

Problem with this kind of system is that typically, the few people at the top making the decisions on what to inflate are typically the ones who profit most, as by the time they have sold their 300-400g worth of investments the margin is so low its barely worth or not at all.

Obviously, this is not the only outcome to these types of groups, but it is typically the trend.

[vbleep]

I think you all suck.  Hope you all go broke.  Thanks for trying to ruin the game for the rest of us who .. well, you know, just play the game?

[Al Shamari]

vbleep, on 27 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I think you all suck.  Hope you all go broke.  Thanks for trying to ruin the game for the rest of us who .. well, you know, just play the game?

Keep personal flaming out of discussion threads, thanks.

On topic, MMORPGs are designed to be played a majority of ways. Just "playing the game" to you, obviously means something entirely different than say a hardcore PvP player who spends hours a day fiddling with new builds to make the Elementalist he once loved viable again, others may seek to simply explore the land and document their findings whilst hardly giving a care in the world about gear stats or level progression, others are crafters who dabble with the creation of items and find the whole idea of cooking various foods interesting.

The people laying down discussion in this thread are economists who find the idea of buyer/seller trading to be an utmost intriguing subject and enjoy the risks and rewards of high profit trading. This also exists in the real world, market manipulation that is, and it's only fair that it carries over into the game world. Everyone has the option of doing so themselves, whether you like it or not.

Don't try to belittle another gamer's play style simply because it doesn't correspond with your own.

Edited by Al Shamari, 27 November 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Blazen56k]

vbleep, on 27 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I think you all suck.  Hope you all go broke.  Thanks for trying to ruin the game for the rest of us who .. well, you know, just play the game?

I don't know, he may have a point if he was looking to buy chocolate bars. /wink

[Vysander]

vbleep, on 27 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I think you all suck.  Hope you all go broke.  Thanks for trying to ruin the game for the rest of us who .. well, you know, just play the game?

I just play the game..... the tp is part of the game isn't it?

On a side note, i may be interested in this... depending on what it entails... see my previous post for concerns.

I'm all for knowledge collectives, but not so hot on market manipulation.

[kaldemeo]

Count me in.
I got an idea

[lysecret]

wouldn´t it be more useful to form a trading guild

[AMIX_GW2]

count me in, i have some ideas. I have experience in economics.

Edited by AMIX_GW2, 29 November 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Vysander]

lysecret, on 29 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

wouldn´t it be more useful to form a trading guild

I recall there was a thread of someone starting a trading guild a couple weeks back. Not sure what ever happened with that.

[lmaonade]

market manipulation would be terrible :\ people are already shafting themselves with baseless speculation on the major events of the past few months, they don't need anymore help lol

though that's just my opinion, i've been intrigued by the TP and can easily see why someone would want to use group leverage to play it, good luck if you guys decide to do it

[frostybroc]

Could this be bannable? I know some MMOs have rules in place to prevent market manipulation. I'm not against the idea, I think it would add something else to the game. Just wouldn't want to see people getting banned for this.

[Sheepski]

*waits for the inevitable Mystic Street Crash and seeing lots of homeless Sylvari's eating the grass outside the TP in LA, Asuras living in their golems, Charr begging for bowls of milk and Norn selling "heroic tales 4 food"  *

Edited by Sheepski, 04 December 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[Virdiana Sovari]

Al Shamari, on 27 November 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

The people laying down discussion in this thread are economists who find the idea of buyer/seller trading to be an utmost intriguing subject and enjoy the risks and rewards of high profit trading. This also exists in the real world, market manipulation that is, and it's only fair that it carries over into the game world. Everyone has the option of doing so themselves, whether you like it or not.

Just before i post, i am trading in this game (and others too).
Of course, trading exists in real life. But it's not like one company can buy every piece of bread on the market and make it's price go up by 500%. There are many law restrictions to prevent that, and, it's practically not possible.

And, playing market is actually bad for rest people. Think of that: you make 1000 gold out of trading post. Where does it come from? Yeah, you know the answer. From the accounts of people who are struggling to buy sigil for 2 gold. And usually for ever 1 gold gained by you, 1 additional (or more) is lost in taxes.

So yes, you have fun and make hundreds of gold. But would it be fun to get ripped of in real life?

What would you do if bread's price would skyrocket, by let's say 500%? Just accept it and buy as usual? No. People would protest, manifest everywhere etc.

Playing PvP and PvE is actually good for community - it brings more cash to it. But playing market just kicks the poor in the asses and makes the riches even richer. Gold disappears from the market that way.

Edited by Virdiana Sovari, 04 December 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Blazen56k]

Virdiana Sovari, on 04 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Just before i post, i am trading in this game (and others too).
Of course, trading exists in real life. But it's not like one company can buy every piece of bread on the market and make it's price go up by 500%. There are many law restrictions to prevent that, and, it's practically not possible.

And, playing market is actually bad for rest people. Think of that: you make 1000 gold out of trading post. Where does it come from? Yeah, you know the answer. From the accounts of people who are struggling to buy sigil for 2 gold. And usually for ever 1 gold gained by you, 1 additional (or more) is lost in taxes.

So yes, you have fun and make hundreds of gold. But would it be fun to get ripped of in real life?

What would you do if bread's price would skyrocket, by let's say 500%? Just accept it and buy as usual? No. People would protest, manifest everywhere etc.

Playing PvP and PvE is actually good for community - it brings more cash to it. But playing market just kicks the poor in the asses and makes the riches even richer. Gold disappears from the market that way.

“Most economic fallacies derive from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another."

Milton Friedman  disagrees with your assessment.

If anyone is interested PM with your est. net worth and liquid capital.

[McJAC]

Blazen56k, on 05 December 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

“Most economic fallacies derive from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another."

Milton Friedman  disagrees with your assessment.

If anyone is interested PM with your est. net worth and liquid capital.

I don't think this is applicable on reselling stuff. This is about people actually producing something...that is how the pie grows, thus people farming stuff in GW2.

If you have fixed amount of things and you just resell them for higher price, the pie is not getting any bigger....actually it doesn't matter if it is fixed amount. Selling the same stuff over again doesn't make it grow in numbers you dont even add value to those items so the increased price is not really justified.

So yea investing is good like buying shares at IPOs but then trading those shares for pure speculation is just taking money from other people because you've outsmarted them.

[okwtf8288]

What is the point of forming a buy group? with just 200g i easily cornered part of the market. By soloing you also don't run the risk of someone dumping the item early, leaving you with tons of a stock that won't sell. And if you guys are planning to buy out pre-cursors and sell em at 1000g... kind of a d-bag move...

[Blazen56k]

McJAC, on 05 December 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

I don't think this is applicable on reselling stuff. This is about people actually producing something...that is how the pie grows, thus people farming stuff in GW2.

Sure it applies, it's called the time value of money.  Present Value vs. Future Value.  I am producing time for the seller, which has value you to him or he wouldn't sell to me.

McJAC, on 05 December 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

If you have fixed amount of things and you just resell them for higher price, the pie is not getting any bigger....actually it doesn't matter if it is fixed amount. Selling the same stuff over again doesn't make it grow in numbers you dont even add value to those items so the increased price is not really justified.

As I said above, I'm selling time, over and over again.  In addition to that, I'm also providing liquidity to the market and reducing the money supply in the game, which means the farmers gold is worth more.

McJAC, on 05 December 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

So yea investing is good like buying shares at IPOs but then trading those shares for pure speculation is just taking money from other people because you've outsmarted them.

Bond Trader, Option Trader, Day Trader, etc. etc.

Edited by Blazen56k, 06 December 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[Al Shamari]

Virdiana Sovari, on 04 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Just before i post, i am trading in this game (and others too).
Of course, trading exists in real life. But it's not like one company can buy every piece of bread on the market and make it's price go up by 500%. There are many law restrictions to prevent that, and, it's practically not possible.

But there are several groups of people doing this, the fellow who made this post isn't the only one with the idea. There are numerous guilds established for doing this exact thing. So, that being said, the functionality of this actually resembles "the pit" that takes place at The New York Board of Trade floor, in which groups of traders meet for the day to fight for buys and sales of many of our valuable raw commodity goods such as the trading price of coffee. Which in turn, directly affects the price of your cup of coffee at Starbucks. It's a very similar system in which very few people control the fluctuation of raw goods through the means of trying to add to their own pockets. Some people make some serious money doing so, others go broke.

[Khalija]

lysecret, on 29 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

wouldn´t it be more useful to form a trading guild

This, or at least create a site where you can facilitate something like this on your own. The scamming risk is high and since we don't even allow the buying and selling of in-game items here on Guru, we cannot allow people to use our forums to set up something like this.