434 replies to this topic

[Stellarthief]

Heart Collector, on 26 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

He's describing what the acronym means, how it started and what it entails when people say they're making an RPG. It's not his own personal interpretation, but the generally accepted "official" definition of the term, in which group strategy mechanics have no bearing.

Anyway I think I'm not going to continue in this debate as we're on completely different tangents.

There are table top RPGs, there are computer RPGs, there are MMORPGs (referred to now commonly as MMOG actually!), there are xbox RPGs, playstation RPGs.

These are made in mind with the role you take on.  You adopt a new personality, a new person.  You dont adopt the "tank" mechanic...

[beadnbutter32]

Personally I loved the trinity.  Rolling a healer meant never having to look for a team for anything.  Plus playing wack a mole health bars IS fun, really!  More fun than twitchy dodge dodge time.
Maybe we don't have to wait forever to find a healer for tank, but now we have to wait forever to find a team for any starter level dungeon or anything that is not FOTM.

[Stellarthief]

beadnbutter32, on 26 November 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Maybe we don't have to wait forever to find a healer for tank, but now we have to wait forever to find a team for any starter level dungeon or anything that is not FOTM.

And trinity mechanic would make this worse... If you cant find anyone as is, how will you find specific people?

[Perm Shadow Form]

Tank is not considered a role in MMORPG,
I'll leave it here.
__________________________________

As for the trinity, I dont mind it not coming back, but, at least replace is with something as equally good.
Rethink the combat mechanics, currently, for me, they lack any kind of a depth.Add more skills, reduce cool downs, at least in PVE.

[Arquenya]

Stellarthief, on 26 November 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

And trinity mechanic would make this worse... If you cant find anyone as is, how will you find specific people?

Only if classes couldn't take on any role.

The problem with the trinity is that you had a specific build and class for it. If anyone could do anything it wouldn't be a problem.

[Desild]

beadnbutter32, on 26 November 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Personally I loved the trinity.  Rolling a healer meant never having to look for a team for anything.  Plus playing wack a mole health bars IS fun, really!  More fun than twitchy dodge dodge time.
Maybe we don't have to wait forever to find a healer for tank, but now we have to wait forever to find a team for any starter level dungeon or anything that is not FOTM.

Personaly, I love that lack of trinity. Because now, I can take the character, not the class. And god forbid you if you actualy have to strafe to get out of the fire.

Both my Guardian and Necromancer are supporters. Both heal and support my party. Now tell me, in what game can a Warlock-esque class heal? Not WoW. They can keep their stupid trinity.

Edited by Desild, 26 November 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[Robsy128]

Who ever said the trinity was gone?

The only difference now is that you don't need to swap characters to fill in a role. You simply change weapons or a few skills. I've often had to be a healer as a ranger, guardian or ele whilst grouping with people, and then I switch to DPS or a tank whenever my team needs me to. The trinity hasn't gone - it's just evolved.

[Stellarthief]

Arquenya, on 26 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Only if classes couldn't take on any role.

The problem with the trinity is that you had a specific build and class for it. If anyone could do anything it wouldn't be a problem.

Running around with 3 sets of gear, needing to constantly respec, etc.  This is also a sub optimal solution.

The principle of GW2 and what Warhammer online wanted to originally do are the better principles imo.  Make everyone the healer.  Make everyone the tank. Make everyone the dps.

We can discuss execution, if GW2 did it well etc, until blue in the face. But the principle I find the best.  Bring anyone and everyone everywhere.

[BabelFish]

I think the trinity still does exist but its been so watered down that as others have suggested: the specific roles are underwhelming in the face of this totally screwed up aggro system. What I'd like to see is a cross-class system where a player can invest up to 30 points into a new profession's traits while retaining their 70 points in their current one. This would further the game from the Holy Trinity concept by allowing classes to do 1-2 roles effectively. As another poster had also suggested combo fields had a ton of potential, if that had been a major focus there would be a larger emphasis on teamwork which would compensate us for the lack of trinity in dungeons which in turn diminishes required team work.

[Beza]

Rickter, on 26 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

...and ive been trying to build my guardian in that way, stacking vitality and toughness, using my healing skills to help the team, using the number 5 greatsword skill to pull enemies to me, then switching to sword and shield to reapply the number 4 shield skill etc.

im trying my best to tank in the GW2 sense of the role but you know what?  i feel like the game is needing those types of roles.

Just want to throw that in here - I don't think you are using a very effective tanking setup with greatsword / sword+shield. I can understand your dissapointment at not being able to tank like you are used to, I experienced that too when levelling my guardian and it made me shelf the class at L55ish to level two other classes to 80.

Since then I have come back to my guardian as my main and what I find the most effective is the so called crit-hammer build. Not very intuitive that a two handed hammer lets you tank, but on its autoattack chain it actually gives you protection, 33% off any damage. That coupled with extended boon duration allows me to have perma protection up if indeed I do stand and take it in the face. Add to that the rune with a further 10% damage reduction, on top of 3.2k armour and a lot of self heals incoming. Tankiest build I found so far, with staff as a second weapon which gives me a beefy extra self-heal plus groupheal plus might (and other nice skills). Go have a look, I am sure you will find you have not fully explored the guardian class yet (neither have I).

Rickter, on 26 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

...probably becaue the fights are zerg fests with the boss doing a random mechanic that is hard to spot and ends up draining your life to where its practically a one shot.

thats not better.  thats not more engaging. . . what?!  the centaur champion in snowden hills, the Giant champ in Nageling town, the icebrood champion outside of crossroads haven - zerg fests.

zergfests that are extremely unfriendly to melee classes.  they do a close proximity aoe that one shots everyone.  "oh well just dodge" you say?  what about ranged classes? they dont have to dodge, so its punishing melee classes because there wasnt a better fight mechanic implemented.

Zergfests are totally boring, agreed. I do think they put them in to give players an easy starting experience, though there might have been better ways to do it. The zerg has come to an end though in the fractals at least, so there is still hope. But you seem to be quite set on your guardian as a melee class and nothing else. You do have range after all. While it may not be as versatile or powerful compared to other classes, there are situations when it is called for. I always carry a scepter with an offhand for that reason, and I do not feel useless with those on ranged only fights.

[Stellarthief]

Beza, on 26 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Just want to throw that in here - I don't think you are using a very effective tanking setup with greatsword / sword+shield. I can understand your dissapointment at not being able to tank like you are used to, I experienced that too when levelling my guardian and it made me shelf the class at L55ish to level two other classes to 80.

Since then I have come back to my guardian as my main and what I find the most effective is the so called crit-hammer build. Not very intuitive that a two handed hammer lets you tank, but on its autoattack chain it actually gives you protection, 33% off any damage. That coupled with extended boon duration allows me to have perma protection up if indeed I do stand and take it in the face.

Be careful about this, protection does not reduce damage from conditions.  Neither does the 10% signet. This only applies to "normal" non condition damage.

[Arquenya]

Stellarthief, on 26 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Make everyone the healer.  Make everyone the tank. Make everyone the dps.

We can discuss execution, if GW2 did it well etc, until blue in the face. But the principle I find the best.  Bring anyone and everyone everywhere.

Yes true. But I have the feeling that everyone is just DPS and there's very little teamplay required. Self-heal and being able to withstand one or two blows isn't what I'd call "everyone is healer/tank", it's what a typical DPS class/build can do in every game.
And with the AoE red circle mechanic, there's not much to evade or block anyway.

I mean: I'm doing dungeons for some time now and even if I get into one I never done before I just follow the rest and do as the rest. Not a single communication required in most dungeons, just DPS and avoid the red circles, res the ones that are downed and you're just as good as the rest. You can't fail, it's an easy result for just a little effort. But it doesn't feel like an accomplishment or challenge.

Edited by Arquenya, 26 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Stellarthief]

Arquenya, on 26 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yes true. But I have the feeling that everyone is just DPS and there's very little teamplay required. Self-heal and being able to withstand one or two blows isn't what I'd call "everyone is healer/tank", it's what a typical DPS class/build can do in every game.
And with the AoE red circle mechanic, there's not much to evade or block anyway.

I mean: I'm doing dungeons for some time now and even if I get into one I never done before I just follow the rest and do as the rest. Not a single communication required in most dungeons, just DPS and avoid the red circles, res the ones that are downed and you're just as good as the rest. You can't fail, it's an easy result for just a little effort.

That is entirely true. I have been telling my wife this exact same thing for awhile and posted many times.  The content is mostly trivial in the game.  With group who doesnt even know how to dodge you can do dungeons in a couple hours (instead of minutes) or an hour.

But, there is still optimizing and knowledge and what not to be needed if you want to run dungeons quickly, efficiently without repair bills or frustration.

The better you go about it, the faster it all goes

[Beza]

Stellarthief, on 26 November 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Be careful about this, protection does not reduce damage from conditions.  Neither does the 10% signet. This only applies to "normal" non condition damage.

Yes. Though as a guardian you have access to various forms of condition removal. In my current setup I have two skills / traits removing a condition every 10 seconds. So far that has worked well for me.

[Stellarthief]

Beza, on 26 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Yes. Though as a guardian you have access to various forms of condition removal. In my current setup I have two skills / traits removing a condition every 10 seconds. So far that has worked well for me.

Just meant because you say "off any damage".  That's misleading for someone who isn't very into the mechanics of the game and what each skill does ^^;

They might think like I originally did with my guardian that 10% damage reduction is a straight value from all damage (all sources). Not so

[Trei]

radamant011, on 26 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Removing trinity took away some of the strategic aspect, so now basically everyone just go dps shooting/hacking/slashing and its more like arcade game. No more drama watching red bars go down and casting word of healing, prot spirit etc..

Strange, I still see these same strategic dramas unfolding all the time, watching red bars go down and casting heals.

Only this time round everyone in the group is involved, not just one healer stuffed with the job.

I don't see how you say the presence of the trinity would allow for more strategic play.
I see much of the exact opposite.
Your strategy in a trinity is limited to those classes you brought.

If your trinity tank gets killed because your healer couldn't keep up, exactly what strategy can you come up with on the fly to recover from that?
Nah, why bother? It's the noob healer's fault, just kick him and find another one, right?

[Stellarthief]

Trei, on 26 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Strange, I still see these same strategic dramas unfolding all the time, watching red bars go down and casting heals.

Only this time round everyone in the group is involved, not just one healer stuffed with the job.

I don't see how you say the presence of the trinity would allow for more strategic play.
I see much of the exact opposite.
Your strategy in a trinity is limited to those classes you brought.

If your trinity tank gets killed because your healer couldn't keep up, exactly what strategy can you come up with on the fly to recover from that?
Nah, why bother? It's the noob healer's fault, just kick him and find another one, right?

Also have to agree here..  Arcade games are among the top ones in the e-sports (think quake, certain racing games, halo, counter strike).  Arcade style games require intense concentration, coordination/manual dexterity, spatial awareness, rapid information processing and a whole slew of other things, also tactics.  Overcoming your opponent using the exact same available tools.

You are more limited in your traditional MMO because of the classes. Not everyone brings the same tools, buffs, etc. It's all split up to make each class desireable in the role they are intended fit.

So, by definition your options are more limited. You can only apply tactics for the available abilities, debuffs, buffs.  Where as in GW2 the debuffs with exception of mesmer are pretty much on mulitple classes.  Most classes can offer several buffs or debuffs, several different combo fields, several different finishers.  Some more or less than others, but its more a level playing field with how you can mix and match overall tactics.

Edited by Stellarthief, 26 November 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Trei]

Skolops, on 26 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

GW2 didn't get rid of the trinity.  They simply cut it down to DPSers.

Everyone in this game can DPS just as well as any DPS class in another game.  When it comes to healing and damage mitigation, however, the abilities each class have simply pale in comparison to what can be achieved in other games.  I mean, the strongest allied heal I've seen in GW2 is about as strong as the throwaway party heal that the pure DPS class Marauder can use in TOR.  I think this may be the problem more than anything.

See, I recall that during development, we were told that the idea behind GW2 was to eliminate the very *class* specific roles.  In other words, you could be a Mesmer and heal if you wanted, or DPS or Tank.  It wasn't like other games where, say, a Marauder (to une my previous example) could only ever DPS so by choosing that class you were locked into the DPS role forever.  I know that I envisioned - and I think many others did as well - very versatile classes which either by means of your build or by some other means all jump into a strong healing or support/tanking role.  In the end, every class is really just a DPSer with some extremely limited healing and support options.  The Gu.....

I had a very different impression and interpretation of this.

I envisioned a game where I can just PuG and roll with ie: 5 thieves.
Not 1 tank spec thief, 1 healer thief and 3 dps thieves, but 5 dps thieves.

Any combination of roles would have their pros and cons. My 5 glass cannon comp would be killing things so fast we won't need to tank them, but our margin of error would be that much smaller than a group comp with more control and safety nets.

It also may not work equally well for all encounters and we may end up needing to adjust traits on the fly or otherwise adapt to each situation as they unfold in the dungeon.
But that, to me, is what it means to play the game, play the profession.
Not the role.

Someone mentioned something about being able to excel at his chosen role in a trinity game because the roles and their criteria are clearly defined. One can be a great DPSer or a great tank.

I say I want to be known as great Ranger or a great Elementalist etc instead.

[Lhim]

Rickter, on 25 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

...Trinity System ... is largely absent from GW2..

what i want to discuss is whether this was the proper thing to do.

I don't know if it was proper to do. What I think though is that the combat in PvE is empty in bland, because it's generally a spam- and zergfest and the AI is not intelligent at all, has gazillion HP and is based on the mechanic to one-shot players. I don't think that was proper to do in the first place.

[Resolve]

I do wish Healers were in the game. Healing is good fun and can be pretty intense. But the current system is all good as well.

[Stellarthief]

Lhim, on 26 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I don't know if it was proper to do. What I think though is that the combat in PvE is empty in bland, because it's generally a spam- and zergfest and the AI is not intelligent at all, has gazillion HP and is based on the mechanic to one-shot players. I don't think that was proper to do in the first place.

How is that any different  than most other games?

Boss mobs are 5vs1, 15vs1, 25vs1, 40vs1, or MORE vs.1 usually.  They have 10-15 minutes worth of HP and they all have mechanics that you have to follow or you ALL get 1 shotted.  Or you have a big bad tank who has to have his HP continually kept up because once he dies, you all die.

Dont stand in the fire, dont stand in the green, dont attack, dont heal, dont do that, look away, etc.  It all boils down to the same thing. Punishing people who arent paying attention.

Edited by Stellarthief, 26 November 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Trei]

Perm Shadow Form, on 26 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Then please, elaborate, why can't tank be described as a role inside the actual game?
What term would you use to describe a otherwise?

Let's put it this way:

Your role as a Warrior could be a tough guy type character wearing heavy armor, favors twohanded claymores over all other weapons, and being overly protective over your little rogue sister, in a fictional steampunk world of this particular setting.

Your job and task in an adventuring group heading into a dungeon just happens to be that of what is popularly known in trinity-dependent MMORPGs game terms as... a tank.

The Role in RPG refers to you being that particular Warrior in that particular world.
It does not refer to your given task and responsibility in a group.

[Norn Osprey]

Rickter, on 25 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

what i want to discuss is whether this was the proper thing to do.

so please discuss.

Yes it was. The trinity does not reward good playing. It cripples raids. groups, events to be dependent on "tanks" and "healers" to get anything done. Those two professions are, almost exclusively, the domain of drama queens and attention whores. Whom hold up all progression to have their time in the spot light.

Now players are forced to be self reliant and some percentage just can't cope.

The biggest factor I see that holds players back is themselves. They do not try to learn how this games threat mechanics work. It has rules, they aren't too difficult to learn but people would rather be spoon fed an easy solution instead of experimenting.

I am -extremely- glad Arena Net had the backbone to do away with an outdated model that is holding back the MMO genre. However, their decision will not be a popular one as most would rather be lazy than actively work for a reward.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

Meep. Meep meep meep player x meep meep, player y meep meep aggro meep meep.

Bah! Rubbish.

Some people like defined roles, but some people also liked pickled beets, which I can't stand! Meep.

The combat feels more organic without them. You have to do what you have to do as the situation evolves. Add in genuine tanking and pure healer roles and now you've really turned this game into WoW 2.0. Once the roles are there, people will INSIST on them for groups. Then you'll NEED fixed groups, because seriously, who is going to tank for 50 players they don't know, or heal 50 players they don't know for little to no reward? They'll want traditional 6 man group split.

With open tagging and 'everyone gets equal credit for equal damage', you need open ended classes with switch on the fly skills. Otherwise, it's back to madatory 6 man role driven groups. People WILL demand it once it's possible to have it.

If you like that sort of thing, I can completely understand wanting to see it in game but I don't. People are already up in arms about Anet going back on 'promises'. Throw in "Hey, now you can have your roles back!" and people will shit blood.

I'd like to keep one thing about this game at least that's totally different from others. If they bring in even 'optional' ability to tank and pure heal, it's just another MMO with gear grind, lack of attention to PvP, all that stuff people are upset about already. The game can't take it and actually neither can I.

No offense. There's really nothing wrong with your idea at all except that I'd not want to see it in this game. Who knows, maybe the majority of people do, and I'm just an oddball, but I'd not be playing if this was implemented.

[Dasryn]

idk, i just feel like there was more depth in boss encounters with the trinity than without it.

i have not participated in Fractals yet but from what i have seen, its zerging on the "boss" who happens to be very melee UNfriendly, players running into ranged, and people scrambling around to help revive others who then subsequently get pummeled by said melee unfriendly "boss".

i never said to just throw us back to the original first original ever original trinity system, im just advocating that instead of completely removing the mechanic, they shouldve reworked it in some way to still have pronounced roles, but balance between what they have now and the game with them.

[blindude]

i always disliked the silly concept of the holy trinity and how unnatural made the battle feel.If you think theres a lack of meaningfull encounters in gw2 then pray they make it interesting but dont insist on going back to that combat model.
Omg a huge boss keeps stupidly attacking a meat ball character where the squishy ones a few meters away take of huge chunks of its hp..Poor monster ,if only it knew it could  hit em first  and wipe them all

[Dasryn]

blindude, on 26 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

.If you think theres a lack of meaningfull encounters in gw2 then pray they make it interesting but dont insist on going back to that combat model.

i think this is what im concerned with.  im a level 31 and all ive seen are the brain dead, melee smash, meaningless encounters.  i keep telling myself, meh, this is low level, this is just a dynamic event etc. . .

but from what im seeing on the forums, that sounds like the standrad fare here.  how can that be?  right now, as it stands, Trinity combat has more depth.

again i am level 31, can someone please tell me this isnt the case at later levels and give me an example?

seriously, most of these bosses are melee unfriendly.  like melee - UNFRIENDLY.  which is unfair because the elementalists and mesmers and rangers are standing back doing work, while me, being a guardian, can only run in, hit the boss a couple of times, then i gotta dodge, run away, plus watch all my skills and cooldowns etc, just to stay alive.

thats shallow.

with the trinity there are defined roles.  yes there is one person taking the brunt of the damage, but there is strategy involved. kiting, turning the boss away from the rest of the group - its unrealistic to expect all GW2 to be knowledgable, let alone comfortable with kiting bosses.  and thats what's happening in GW2, these "bosses" require kiting, but since there is no aggro management, its whoever the boss lands on so to speak.

ok, ima stop because looking at the above paragraph, im ranting, which i dont want to do.  but i hope you guys get the jist.  these "boss" encounters are shallow.

[blindude]

You are mostly right..
The most entertaining encounters ive met in general pve in teh whole game(well not whole since i only got 50%completion )
were when late at night there was no one and i got to solo a few easy champions.And that was me being on my toes to dodge those 1 hit attacks and being carefull when to burn my defencive cooldowns etc..
But that was cool for me and really made me feel like i wasnt playing an mmo but an action game on hard mode..so im not against of using the dodge mechanic a lot in hard encounters.I like faster twitchy combat but they could always spice things up and add more stages to each boss attacks .It shouldnt be that hard to do.
Btw you should thank god that you werent there at launch since those brainless standard mobs would also be decimated by the hordes of players (the zergs ..everywhere)

Edited by blindude, 26 November 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[Segraine]

I'd like to see the GW1 protection monk return. We don't need healing since everyone has decent self healing skills and enough ally healing to get by. The Prot monk (speaking as a PvE and PvP monk) was far more dynamic a play style than what GW2 offers.  With all the damage, one shots, control, and other things flying around, a Prot monk would add a lot to the party but not be strictly necessary. Optimal perhaps? Depends on your view.

Playing as a Protection monk (with some healing) in GW1 was some of the most fun I've had with online gaming. Gw2 is just boring "kill stuff." It feels a lot like Diablo 2 but without the frantic fun aspects D2 had. I am generally disappointed with the game. It isn't very fun or challenging. I am one who looked forward to the Trinity disappearing; only now I see it did foster cooperation and teamwork in ways GW2 doesn't right now.

I hope the combo system will be tweaked to foster better cooperation or even introduce the Protection Ritualist in the next expansion

[Dasryn]

i would like to see a poll added to this thread as it seems there are plenty of arguments for or against it.

how you feel about Prot Monks, is how i feel about tanks.