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GW2 and the Trinity

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#211 Dasryn

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:04 AM

ok so its been a few weeks and i pretty much have AC explorable mode on farm.  been getting in some awesome groups and we're clearing all the paths and its been a real pleaser.

i can honestly say, there is no such thing as tanking in this game.  its funny, my last group had a warrior, and two guardians - me being one of the guardians of course - and we were all specced for toughness and vitality.  but honestly, there just isnt any tanking.  the boss goes to whoever it wants and all you can do is keep beating on it.  i was applying empower with my staff and protection with shield skills and hold the line.  aegis with retreat and virtue of courage.  healing whenever i could and really being a team player, it really makes me feel good, like i am directly contributing to the survival of my team.  ive taken ownership, i get a guild invite after every run because they know, they frakking know when that blue shield pops over their body that i was the one that put it there.

however

there is healing.  idc what you think, you can be a dedicated healer in this game.  my wife is an elementalist, and i hopped on her character and ran a sstory mode just to see what ele gameplay was like, and i tell you what, between water staff skills #3 and #5, frost bow and water attuned elemental elite skill, you never have to stop healing.  hell frost bow skill #1 can be spammed!

so can you say the trinity is truly present just mechanically differnet? idk, GW2 has a different kind of feeling with cooperative play and its something im warming up to.  its growing on me and that is a true testament to this game's design.

#212 Ghostwing

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:16 AM

It plays differently enough from a trinity-based game to a point where it's mechanically different. To say that it's the trinity but in another form is meaningless...that's like saying the trinity is there in TF2 but in another form  because there are heavy characters and a healer character. The trinity isn't just about having a heavy class character, a healer, and dps. It's about the tank-class character being able to control aggro, and the healer being able to keep everyone up.

You can be a dedicated healer, yes, but there is no way the group is being kept up just by your healing. You can be a dedicated anything, if you chose to. Call yourself a dedicated rezzer, and all you do is rezz. If the rest of your group is good enough, and you're good enough at rezzing, you might never need to press 1-5. Heck I've four-manned a lot of the bosses.

Edited by Ghostwing, 11 December 2012 - 12:20 AM.


#213 ThiaTheMuse

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:23 AM

Hmm, I'm kinda torn on this actually. I, personally, do not miss tanking or healing. I really hated how, in GW1, people would call my Warrior a tank, and expect that I would hold aggro like a WoW player could.

However, I guess there are people who LIKED tanking and healing so I guess I feel a bit bad for them...

#214 Juanele

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

View PostThiaTheMuse, on 11 December 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:


However, I guess there are people who LIKED tanking and healing so I guess I feel a bit bad for them...

No need to feel bad for them. There are hundreds of other games that have the trinity setup.

#215 Briar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostThiaTheMuse, on 11 December 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Hmm, I'm kinda torn on this actually. I, personally, do not miss tanking or healing. I really hated how, in GW1, people would call my Warrior a tank, and expect that I would hold aggro like a WoW player could.

However, I guess there are people who LIKED tanking and healing so I guess I feel a bit bad for them...

This, the GW series never had the trinity - ever. GW1 replaced the tank with defensive utility. GW2 took that a step further and removed the healer... and replaced it with utility healing.

But people don't seem to understand/don't like the tankless concept.

GW1 was better in that the trinity strategy was still usable. Although inefficient inferior and mindbogglingly slow

Let the dinosaurs continue with the trinity. Let the skilled cast protective spirit on the dps and make them the tanks

#216 Enscheff

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:47 PM

Personally, I loved playing a tank in games like EQ1 and Vanguard. Some people loved healing, some people loved cranking out DPS, and some twisted people liked to play Monks and be the pullers for a raid.

PvE in GW2 seems less like group play, and more like 5 people all soloing in the same area. Sure, someone may throw a heal here and there, but by and large it is up to each individual person to keep themselves alive. I'm sure some people like it that way, but I prefer to have each member reliant on someone else to survive. Tanks kept healers and DPS alive by holding agro, healers kept tanks and DPS alive by healing, and DPS kept everyone alive by killing mobs before they killed the raid.

In the end the DPSers got to compare who did the most damage. The tanks got to compare who had the best stats and held agro the best. And the healers got to bring the raid to a halt anytime they wanted simply by typing "AFK bathroom". Everyone was happy.

There are many ways to have a "main tank" without some equation based agro mechanic. You could have the tanks shield other players to take away damage. You could make it so a tank could stand between a mob and a healer to prevent the mob from getting to the healer. You could give the tanks more crowd control skills to keep mobs away from healers and DPSers.

As it stands now I find myself using my rifle on my Warrior more and more as I get higher in the fractals. Standing toe to toe with a mob is getting more and more dangerous when everyone else is just running around kiting it. Why swing my axe and risk getting nailed when I can just stand back like a Ranger and shoot with my rifle in complete safety? It is so much easier to dodge attacks at 1000 range it makes little sense to ever get in there and melee.

That's a shame, and poor game design, imo.

Edited by Enscheff, 11 December 2012 - 09:48 PM.


#217 Dasryn

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:47 PM

View PostEnscheff, on 11 December 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

As it stands now I find myself using my rifle on my Warrior more and more as I get higher in the fractals. Standing toe to toe with a mob is getting more and more dangerous when everyone else is just running around kiting it. Why swing my axe and risk getting nailed when I can just stand back like a Ranger and shoot with my rifle in complete safety? It is so much easier to dodge attacks at 1000 range it makes little sense to ever get in there and melee.

That's a shame, and poor game design, imo.


i agree with this a lot actually.  i posted this somewhere but GW2 does seem to punish melee characters much more than ranged characters.  its ridiculous, you see melee going down constantly, then the ranged runs in to rez, then they go down, its madness!

there is some serious balancing issues when it comes to pve ranged and melee.

#218 elmprotector

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

View PostRickter, on 25 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

hey folks, i wanted to start this thread because i wanted to respond to a topic brought up in another thread without derailing said thread.

and because i want Tyrian Assembly to have topics that do not pertain to Ascended Gear and Nexon ruining ANet blah blah blah.

this was the topic about the Trinity System practically synonymous with the MMORPG genre.

as we all know, that system is largely absent from GW2, but not entirely.  healers can still be healers in the sense and tanking can still be achieved but not in the usual way of aggro maintenance and threat generation.

what i want to discuss is whether this was the proper thing to do.

this is the post that i wanted to reply to in the otehr thread but unfortunately, it would have derailed that other thread:



now i understand we are all tired of the "LF1M NEED A TANK for CoF!!!!" present in games where the Trinity is mandatory, but what my concern is, is whether or not the complete removal of such a system was necessary.

instead of removing the mechanic entirely, i opt that ANet should have balanced the mechanic to where, you still DO NOT NEED the Trinity to attempt/complete content, but the system is still there for those that enjoy tanking in the traditional sense, and dedicated healing.

here is the testimony of someone who supports the Trinity to show that i am not the only one that wants its inclusion:



so please discuss.

K... Go watch and read every dev interview for the last 2 years.   And most will tell you why they did it.  IF you want trinity there are a ton of games that will give it too you.. so why try to change a game to fit your personal wants?

This game will be alive for years to come.  Because its made for casuals and we have a ton of fun (and money to buy stuff in store) because we have a life outside the game.  Hard cores who want trinity and raids spend so much time in game they sacrifice personal monetary gains to play a game.

Arenanet has figured it out.  Casuals who like the challenge of no major gear grind and no "lf X" are loving the game.  And we are willing to spend money in it.

So I am not even sure why these posts are even allowed to be on these forums.  The devs said this is the way it is but some wowie comes here and AGAIN tries to get people to support HIS version of the game even thou its totally outside of what the Devs have said they want.

So why do you wowies keep trying?

View PostRickter, on 11 December 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

i agree with this a lot actually.  i posted this somewhere but GW2 does seem to punish melee characters much more than ranged characters.  its ridiculous, you see melee going down constantly, then the ranged runs in to rez, then they go down, its madness!

there is some serious balancing issues when it comes to pve ranged and melee.

My main is a guardian and we have the ability to change weapon sets in combat right?  So melee can range or melee and even a guardian speced right can put out some nice ranged damage while having nice buffs from a off hand and spec abilities.

Yeah I think it is harder on melee in the game.  But I am not afraid to move in and out of melee and change weapons sets as needed.  Heck my melee is still ranged with sword/torch combo.

#219 Dasryn

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

View Postelmprotector, on 12 December 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

My main is a guardian and we have the ability to change weapon sets in combat right?  So melee can range or melee and even a guardian speced right can put out some nice ranged damage while having nice buffs from a off hand and spec abilities.

first, recently in this thread i stated that the new GW2 system is growing on me and i like it and i rescinded my OP, so sorry you wasted your breath with this post but its ok, i forgive you.

second, what is your ranged weapon as a guardian? im using sword/shield for support and staff. . . for support.

#220 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:00 AM

I would love an answer , i notice most just goes puzzled passing over this question: did you wonder why there is offensive and defensive slots? True, now doing fractals, an ascended ring +5 and +5 infusion, defensive or offensive is mostly related to stats your main need, no big deal, after all.
Still, considering full gear and other accessories are coming, it's pretty clear how huge would be the difference between a glasscannon ascended offensive set and a pure defensive set. Tank, healer, dps. A trinity, just a bit different, a "new form of it" more zergy.
Am i wrong?

p.s. let's not forget omni set, where an apparently defensive ring/shoulder/sword could contain an offensive infusion like malign.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 04:01 AM.


#221 Dasryn

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:09 AM

defensive slots offensive slots, what?  who was talking about that? im confused. . .

#222 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:31 AM

Ye, i know. Still most are ignoring it, just reading "not my stats amen". Present content still not justify the difference, but there is an exact reason because they are so different and infusion role on future content , math will help (reason because every ring i find is stored, not bound to any alt) ;)
Still, noone wonder why the hell we have this difference, with this face :mellow:  just not getting it :huh:

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 04:34 AM.


#223 Borked

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

View PostSkolops, on 26 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:



That's all well and good.  The problem a lot of folks have pointed out is that the lack of a trinity makes creating anything other than shallow fights extremely difficult, if not impossible. In designing raids in different MMOs, the role based system has always served as a kind of foundation allowing all kinds of interesting mechanics to be implemented.  Without strong heals, threat, and many of the other traditional MMO mechanics, it becomes more difficult to create interesting mechanics in a balanced fight.  A big problem is that it becomes very difficult or impossible to make these any mechanics challenging enough without running the risk of making them too challenging or impossible.

View PostSkolops, on 26 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:



That's all well and good.  The problem a lot of folks have pointed out is that the lack of a trinity makes creating anything other than shallow fights extremely difficult, if not impossible. In designing raids in different MMOs, the role based system has always served as a kind of foundation allowing all kinds of interesting mechanics to be implemented.  Without strong heals, threat, and many of the other traditional MMO mechanics, it becomes more difficult to create interesting mechanics in a balanced fight.  A big problem is that it becomes very difficult or impossible to make these any mechanics challenging enough without running the risk of making them too challenging or impossible.

This.  This is exactly the problem with the current.  The content amd its complexity that we have now is pretty much the most interesting and difficult we'll see because of the restrictions of having everyone be a squishy dps.  That says a lot because any random pug can go into an EM and zerg mob it without much difficulty.  If we want to break free of this, we have to integrate a system that works as is, but with trinity roles in mind.

#224 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:34 PM

View PostBorked, on 12 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

This.  This is exactly the problem with the current.  The content amd its complexity that we have now is pretty much the most interesting and difficult we'll see because of the restrictions of having everyone be a squishy dps.  That says a lot because any random pug can go into an EM and zerg mob it without much difficulty.  If we want to break free of this, we have to integrate a system that works as is, but with trinity roles in mind.

Let's give it a year. The human mind can come up with some pretty novel concepts, and maybe even without role specific content, there's a way to add that extra layer of complexity to a fight. Most of the raid gimmicks I've seen are based on movement, skill combos, levers or timing.... NOT on 'needs heals to solve'.

I think what you're trying to say is you enjoy playing a role and find it hard to enjoy a fight when you have no set responsibility.

#225 Reokie

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostRickter, on 12 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

-snip-
second, what is your ranged weapon as a guardian? im using sword/shield for support and staff. . . for support.

I see most guardians using scepter for ranged, and honestly it is rather effective if used properly. All classes have ranged options, however some are more limited than others (Guardian vs Warrior for example)

Edited by Reokie, 12 December 2012 - 04:58 PM.


#226 Dasryn

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:36 AM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 12 December 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Let's give it a year. The human mind can come up with some pretty novel concepts, and maybe even without role specific content, there's a way to add that extra layer of complexity to a fight. Most of the raid gimmicks I've seen are based on movement, skill combos, levers or timing.... NOT on 'needs heals to solve'.

I think what you're trying to say is you enjoy playing a role and find it hard to enjoy a fight when you have no set responsibility.

a year?  Fractals came out 2 1/2 weeks ago and its on farm practically.  i think, if there was a more in depth way to think of, people wouldve found it by now.  then there is the factor of folks doing what's the easiest to do.  

no, we're at our limit with the current system.

#227 gustavxiii

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

i've seen a lot of people say the game needs a trinity and how shallow the current battle system is.  but what i haven't seen is people talk about how a trinity make things interesting.  i haven't play a lot of mmo, but healers doing nothing but heal, dps spamming their attacks, and tanks just sit there and take damage, in what way does that make battle interesting?  serious question because i'm sure people speak from experience of playing interesting trinity battle system.  i just can't imagine that being fun.  i'm not questioning those game being fun, but specifically the battle mechanic.

#228 Dasryn

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:23 AM

View Postgustavxiii, on 13 December 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

i've seen a lot of people say the game needs a trinity and how shallow the current battle system is.  but what i haven't seen is people talk about how a trinity make things interesting.  i haven't play a lot of mmo, but healers doing nothing but heal, dps spamming their attacks, and tanks just sit there and take damage, in what way does that make battle interesting?  serious question because i'm sure people speak from experience of playing interesting trinity battle system.  i just can't imagine that being fun.  i'm not questioning those game being fun, but specifically the battle mechanic.

well you are making some wild generalizations here.

one being htat tanks just sit there and take damage. . . its actually quite involved on holding aggro.  this involves, threat generation, kiting, boss positioning. . .  i mean, it was pretty in depth.

healers. . . ive never healed in an mmorpg before but for some reason my wife LOVES it.

dps is pretty mindless.  thats why we're complaining about current gw2 system because other than minor support, you are basically all dps.

#229 Rumstein

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:48 AM

Thankfully the game is more about skill than: set a wall/tank, heal the tank, everyone else burn, avoid the circles!
It would be interesting to see how malice works though. I know an elementalists with the same build as me, staff as well as me, but less stats due to gear and less damage dealt. But holy crap, he gets aggro like its Black Friday at Walmart.

Gw1 there was no trinity, instead there was: monk + everyone else.

#230 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

View PostRickter, on 13 December 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

a year?  Fractals came out 2 1/2 weeks ago and its on farm practically.  i think, if there was a more in depth way to think of, people wouldve found it by now.  then there is the factor of folks doing what's the easiest to do.  

no, we're at our limit with the current system.

And that happens in EVERY other game on the planet, even with the trinity. I see raids come out and get farmed in 2 weeks on WoW, LotRO, RIFT.... I mean, hey, that's MMOs, right? Then again, I like this game a lot as is, so we probably aren't going to see eye to eye on this... :(

View PostRickter, on 13 December 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

well you are making some wild generalizations here.

one being htat tanks just sit there and take damage. . . its actually quite involved on holding aggro.  this involves, threat generation, kiting, boss positioning. . .  i mean, it was pretty in depth.

healers. . . ive never healed in an mmorpg before but for some reason my wife LOVES it.

dps is pretty mindless.  thats why we're complaining about current gw2 system because other than minor support, you are basically all dps.

Play a mesmer. HUGE support role.

#231 Ghostwing

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

View PostRickter, on 13 December 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

dps is pretty mindless.  thats why we're complaining about current gw2 system because other than minor support, you are basically all dps.

Without a tank, playing a DPS should no longer be mindless because now everyone has to position, dodge, kite, etc. Doesn't always work out that way in this game because for whatever reason a lot of bosses in GW2 are stationary, have crappy consistent damage output and huge amounts of health instead. But not all bosses are like that.

Edited by Ghostwing, 13 December 2012 - 01:55 AM.


#232 whodini

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostRickter, on 25 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

hey folks, i wanted to start this thread because i wanted to respond to a topic brought up in another thread without derailing said thread.

and because i want Tyrian Assembly to have topics that do not pertain to Ascended Gear and Nexon ruining ANet blah blah blah.

this was the topic about the Trinity System practically synonymous with the MMORPG genre.

as we all know, that system is largely absent from GW2, but not entirely.  healers can still be healers in the sense and tanking can still be achieved but not in the usual way of aggro maintenance and threat generation.

what i want to discuss is whether this was the proper thing to do.

this is the post that i wanted to reply to in the otehr thread but unfortunately, it would have derailed that other thread:



now i understand we are all tired of the "LF1M NEED A TANK for CoF!!!!" present in games where the Trinity is mandatory, but what my concern is, is whether or not the complete removal of such a system was necessary.

instead of removing the mechanic entirely, i opt that ANet should have balanced the mechanic to where, you still DO NOT NEED the Trinity to attempt/complete content, but the system is still there for those that enjoy tanking in the traditional sense, and dedicated healing.

here is the testimony of someone who supports the Trinity to show that i am not the only one that wants its inclusion:



so please discuss.


#233 whodini

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:35 AM

First. I would like to say my mez can handle things just fine in Orr. Whoever said that don't know anything about them. I solo my mez all the time around there.
   My main was a war and the. Trinity was dead long ago with nec-resto and Rita. Got to the point where ppl. Forgot how to let the tank do the job. Rits would run in and steal all the aggro and ppl would die because they brang all the damage to backline. First to get hit would be the monk. That drove me mad. When that would happen I would emote "sit" and watch everything fly past me.
   As for gw2 I wish there would be some line to who does the heal. If I throw up null field and someone else is triggering some other party condition removal then both skills are counter productive. Gw2 is far better than 1 but I believe there should be better ways of letting players know what others are doing

#234 gustavxiii

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:59 AM

View PostGhostwing, on 13 December 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

Without a tank, playing a DPS should no longer be mindless because now everyone has to position, dodge, kite, etc. Doesn't always work out that way in this game because for whatever reason a lot of bosses in GW2 are stationary, have crappy consistent damage output and huge amounts of health instead. But not all bosses are like that.

i agree.  it's not about not having the trinity.  it's about gw2 failing to get the most out of the current system.

#235 omar316

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:37 AM

View Postgustavxiii, on 13 December 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

i agree.  it's not about not having the trinity.  it's about gw2 failing to get the most out of the current system.

This^.

Also, I mentioned this in another thread/post. Getting rid of the trinity was a bad idea. Almost everyone who posts here is just concerned about the trinity in PvE.

As another poster also mentioned, everything can be put on farm. Which is absolutely correct, but consider this, what if a certain boss in a 5 boss dungeon had a specific mechanic which could be present in 1 single archetype and that role is optional. It builds a need for that. Yes it will be skewed but there will always be other ways to build around that same type. For example, a single tank in a 5 man grp or 2 tanks and 1 healer. Something along that line.

Beyond PvE, PvP could also benefit from these archetype roles. The current system is severely lacking. They did away with the tried and tested roles, and gave us a sub par experience with this new system. Coupled with the fact of out limited skills, whole damn system just feels gimmicky.

#236 MazD

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

I think I would like to see a guardian utility skill that says: 'Taunt' - Throw a pebble, X damage, target foe attacks you for 3 seconds. With a 30 second cooldown or so.

Apart from that, I think we're just fine.

#237 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

I love how people say GW2 is more skillfull than the games with the trinity.
The whole skill system in GW2 is complete abysmal.

#238 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 13 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

I love how people say GW2 is more skillfull than the games with the trinity.
The whole skill system in GW2 is complete abysmal.
Some people just want to hate on every other MMO for whatever reason, it's annoying.

#239 Heart Collector

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:51 PM

View Postomar316, on 13 December 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Beyond PvE, PvP could also benefit from these archetype roles. The current system is severely lacking. They did away with the tried and tested roles, and gave us a sub par experience with this new system. Coupled with the fact of out limited skills, whole damn system just feels gimmicky.

IMO it's not the lack of the trinity that lowers the skill cap. It's the fact that we have fewer things to manage all at once combined with the extremely lackluster "basic attack".

If the game required active aiming, had locational damage and did not use a simple "basic attack" as a filler between CDs things would have been much better. E.g. if instead of a simple "1" basic auto targeting attack, we had both quick and powerful attacks bound to either mouse button that we needed to aim properly to hit. Also, active blocking, which could work for quick attacks but powerful attacks would break and you would need to dodge these. And there could be combos, e.g. quick-quick-powerful could yield a different result to, say, quick-powerful-quick.

Just my opinion on the matter.

#240 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:19 PM

I never want to play in a game with a fixed trinity again. This is why I am so enthused with the system they are exploring with Guild Wars 2. But as Raspberry Jam has pointed out in the past their isn't quite enough depth with the skill system in the way there was in the original. This maims the potential of sPvP thereby robbing the game of greater depth and thus longevity!




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