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GW2 and the Trinity

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#271 Trei

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:14 AM

View PostStigma, on 18 December 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

I believe the root of the problem to the GW2 combat mechanic is the fact that there is no way of regenerating Stamina fast enough. Therefore, the whole "Skill based" gameplay is more of gimicky than we want. I don't care if a monster can one hit KO me, if I was given the ability or the possibility of dodging out of it using personal skill. The problem is there is no way of keeping up the stamina bar therefore you have cases where people are Downed so many times that players get frustrated and want the Trinity back for a tank or a healer...
Dodge is not the only way to avoid attacks.

Well... as long as you had not been spamming all your weapon and utility skills that also allow you to completely block or evade attacks.

You did equip some of those, right?

Edited by Trei, 18 December 2012 - 07:06 AM.


#272 omar316

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:04 AM

View Postelmprotector, on 18 December 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

LOL just because you dont like what I have to say you call it childish?  I informed again what Arenanet said over and over and over again before release.  The childish ones are the ones who bought a game and either didnt read/watch/listen to dev inteview or did and made the choice to ignore them and buy the game anyway.

Anyone asking for Raids/Gear treadmill/trinity now are just showing they didnt investigate the game before they bought it... or are now being blowhards whining for stuff that Arenanet said flat out NO TOO.

But yeah act like that little boy trying to play with the big boys...

The quoted post below shows why I'd group you with the intelligence of a 7 year old.

View Postelmprotector, on 15 December 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

I can tell you never managed a company or a area for a company.  The people you hear from are the complainers.  The majority who like your product have no reason to go and complain like children on a message board.

Just like hard core raiders.  Multiple studies have been done and they only make up 10% of the population of MMO's.  But if you read message boards you would think they are 80%+.  You and the rest of the people who come here to whine and tell Arenanet how to change their game to what you want and not what they said they were making are just the super loud voices that people see.  

The vast majority love the game and dont come here to explain to you all that everything you complain about was told to you so many times its not funny BEFORE THE GAME WAS RELEASED!  But like I said earlier... you act like 7 year old kids who didnt get what they wanted from their parents so they keep asking over and over again still getting the same NO answer till the parent just blocks them out and ignores them.

Arenanet doesnt care about your complaints.  Go over to the official boards and spam all these "I WANTS" and see how long they stay up.  You dont see the people over there acting like you because arenanet will just erase the posts and ban the people from the boards.  

ArenaNet is the first game to get it.  Casuals are much easier to keep happy,  they have real lives outside the game so they have more disposable income to spend in the shop, they want to play a fun game that takes skill not time = power.  I play with people everyday who love how well they did at making a fun game.  And I do tons of pugs and guild runs with 1-3 outsiders in group.  Never seen people complain like you all do here.. and I am on one of the FULL servers.

Your part of the vocal minority and arenanet doesnt care... because if they did they wouldnt just erase every whine thread you make on the offical boards and if you do it to much block your ability to post on those boards.

You are wrong to assume people did not research the game and what it has to offer before purchasing it.
Simply believing what Anet and the so called many positive reviews which, guess what, what we as a consumer want to justify a purchase want to feel( its just simply human mentality ), as advertised, and now we see the short comings.

Removing the trinity was not wrong.
But not designing the game and making it feel repetitive and lacking is wrong. They lost more by removing the trinity than what they gained.
The choice to attempt to build a Tank / Healer role in a design where it is not present shows people are still wanting the trinity. It is by no way a wrong method to play either.

I was facinated with this no role design as well. But moving up further and trying to fit roles became completely redundant. Classes were not required. It felt that all the Role elements were being centralised to being just 1 element of DPS.

Again as Rickter pointed out, it is possible to play a tank, it's just not part of the game design. Most probably he is sacrifcing alot for this play design. You also need to understand, in trinity there are certain mechanisms in place to circumvate say for example 100% block/parry.

With such a core feature missing from GW2 design and players forcing a build into a none intended design it'd just be skewed or the game would simply break.

#273 Ghostwing

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:31 AM

View PostTrei, on 18 December 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

I think that's the whole point.

How do you deal with a situation you are not built optimal for?

Does Optimal = Fun?
Sometimes, not always.

I tend to find encounters more fun when things are not Optimal, when things go horribly wrong and yet we pull through, when a group of misfit professions and builds overcome the odds and perform beyond expectations.
These are the stories we tell others in time to come, what others tell of us, what "legends" are forged of.

There are no stories about how we ran a dungeon perfectly in 14 mins and 23 secs flat, new record. What's there to say about yet another routine run?
There is no better way to run it, the challenge is at its lowest.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that's how it was (at least in WoW and EQ. I haven't played any other MMO with the trinity)

#274 Segraine

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 18 December 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Also, does anyone get the feeling like, they were going to have a  trinity but scrapped it and forgot to take the items out?
I mean, how many of you actually take healing as a stat on your armour? How many of you take the healing sigils on your weapons?

My ranger is fully specced into healing. I am building a Ele to do the same in a last effort to find a support class I can enjoy. Healing stats and sigils are very powerful if you use them. My ranger doesn't kill quickly, but she also doesn't go down easily either.

#275 Bloodtau

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

View PostSegraine, on 18 December 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

My ranger is fully specced into healing. I am building a Ele to do the same in a last effort to find a support class I can enjoy. Healing stats and sigils are very powerful if you use them. My ranger doesn't kill quickly, but she also doesn't go down easily either.

How is the healing from those? Been wondering about them, tempted to try support/healer on my Engineer but only if it's beneficial. You will be losing quite a bit of dps after all

#276 Hex65000

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

Disclosure: GW2 is the first MMO I've picked up and played.

I've read a lot about WoW, and how the trinity is the way to go, and the gear checks, etc. I'm glad that isn't GW2. If I wanted that, well... I'd play WoW.

My guardian is pretty heavily speced for almost even stats. If I need to boost something, I use food, accessories, in some cases weapons with superior sigils to help me be a good contributor to the team.

Do I tank well? Nope. I can soak a few hits and I can pop aegis for myself and others to up their survivability, but my health is nothing to speak of. A big enough damage spike and I'm down.

Do I heal well? Nope. I heal myself. I do expect teammates to not tip over by being looked at funny by a regular mob. We all have moments where we get disoriented, or out of position, and helping you up if possible is important and should be done -- especially in a team situation.

Do I DPS well? Nope. I can mop basic mobs with my GSword and light bigger targets on fire with scepter/torch, but that's about it. However, I just keep pounding on a target so I'm helping, and that's what we are here for.

According to the trinity model, I am playing this game all wrong. I wouldn't be able to play in groups due to gating with gear checks and the like... So to me, being forced into a particular role isn't fun at all. The fact I can be useful in any role as needed is more fun for me and sometimes can help a failboat-class PUGroup to success. Yet here I am, level 80, most of the map explored -- very orangey gear and I'm a nuisance to kill and can hit back reasonably hard.

This 'jack of all trades' model applies to my general PvEnvironment play as well. I tend to wander the map alone most of the time and with fewer people on the field, my job is to survive and kill everything that stands between me and the next shiny thing.

So in conclusion: If you want your trinity, spec your character to do one of three things well. I think that model is incredibly boring and would hinder my ability to solo the general map. IMO, forcing the WoW model into GW2 is a bad plan. You may as well go play WoW.

Hex.
[ Hates when I bite off more mob than I can chew... ]

Edited by Hex65000, 19 December 2012 - 08:42 PM.


#277 Segraine

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 18 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

How is the healing from those? Been wondering about them, tempted to try support/healer on my Engineer but only if it's beneficial. You will be losing quite a bit of dps after all

Surprisingly, it makes a difference. The Moas can heal everyone around them for several thousand worth of health. They also effect passive healing abilities. The problem is how conditional they tend to be. Moas can only heal others if they are within the right conditions. The passive increase is nice, however. I have a couple hundred health point regeneration that is pretty constant while attacking. I've gotten lazy and don't even dodge many of the open world's fodder since toughness and the regen covers the damage most of the time. Of course that bad habit has gotten me into trouble with my new Water focused Ele :D.

You do lose a lot of DPS; soloing is difficult. However, I don't care about DPS. I still do enough to tag critters, but that is about it. My ranger often just gets Bronze rewards during DEs. *Shrug* I am fine with that. I have more fun healing, reviving, and supporting than attacking and killing things. I view damage as just a side effect for a support oriented build.

In some ways the Trinity is possible. Just not easily.

Edited by Segraine, 18 December 2012 - 09:29 PM.


#278 elmprotector

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:48 AM

View Postomar316, on 18 December 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

The quoted post below shows why I'd group you with the intelligence of a 7 year old.



You are wrong to assume people did not research the game and what it has to offer before purchasing it.
Simply believing what Anet and the so called many positive reviews which, guess what, what we as a consumer want to justify a purchase want to feel( its just simply human mentality ), as advertised, and now we see the short comings.

Removing the trinity was not wrong.
But not designing the game and making it feel repetitive and lacking is wrong. They lost more by removing the trinity than what they gained.
The choice to attempt to build a Tank / Healer role in a design where it is not present shows people are still wanting the trinity. It is by no way a wrong method to play either.

I was facinated with this no role design as well. But moving up further and trying to fit roles became completely redundant. Classes were not required. It felt that all the Role elements were being centralised to being just 1 element of DPS.

Again as Rickter pointed out, it is possible to play a tank, it's just not part of the game design. Most probably he is sacrifcing alot for this play design. You also need to understand, in trinity there are certain mechanisms in place to circumvate say for example 100% block/parry.

With such a core feature missing from GW2 design and players forcing a build into a none intended design it'd just be skewed or the game would simply break.


And yet a ton of us have found out how to play the game as they wanted.

#279 Dasryn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:57 AM

idk why you folks cant seem to even entertain a middle ground here.  its either, do away completely or have it all.

i said this in the OP, where is the middle ground between what ever you want to call the current GW2 system and the Trinity?  is there a way to satisfy both crowds?

because lets be honest, it doesnt matter where you fall, this 10 page thread is proof that there is indeed a substantial demand for the trinity system.

all im looking for is a way for the current GW2 system to also accommodate the Trinity.  make it so if you wanted to tank, great, you can, but also make it the way it is now, where anyone can create a group regardless of professions.

dont tell me its impossible, anything is possible in video game land.  Doom 4 is going to be virtual reality where you put on this helmet and everything, so dont tell me a GW2 system and Trinity middle ground cant be met.

#280 omar316

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:19 AM

View Postelmprotector, on 19 December 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

And yet a ton of us have found out how to play the game as they wanted.

I heard we live in the Matrix.

#281 Ghostwing

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostRickter, on 19 December 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

idk why you folks cant seem to even entertain a middle ground here.  its either, do away completely or have it all.

i said this in the OP, where is the middle ground between what ever you want to call the current GW2 system and the Trinity?  is there a way to satisfy both crowds?

because lets be honest, it doesnt matter where you fall, this 10 page thread is proof that there is indeed a substantial demand for the trinity system.

all im looking for is a way for the current GW2 system to also accommodate the Trinity.  make it so if you wanted to tank, great, you can, but also make it the way it is now, where anyone can create a group regardless of professions.

dont tell me its impossible, anything is possible in video game land.  Doom 4 is going to be virtual reality where you put on this helmet and everything, so dont tell me a GW2 system and Trinity middle ground cant be met.

It's impossible to please everybody. Hell GW2 can be virtual reality and there will be people who will complain and say it's not everything they hoped for. It'd be the same with any trinity middle ground they implement, some people will still be "it's not enough" and some will be "it's too much." "Waa waaa last night I joined a PUG and they didn't want to play a trinity so I was stuck with the twitch gameplay waaaaaaaaaaaaaa they should just make it so trinity solid because waaaaa." And the reverse waa waa argument for people who loath the trinity. In essence, Waaaaa this game doesn't play exactly the way I want it to play waaaaaaaa.

Except right now the combat system, at its core, is right for me, so there's that. There's always room for improvement though, but that applies to everything else ever in existence. What I mean by improvements is implementations that apply to the current system, such as further balancing, addition of skills that work within the framework, etc. Not changes like "make it so one player can make all the other monsters attack him the whole time so everyone else can just stand around and dial rotations while following scripted movement." That would be a fundamental change that is not applicable to the current system.

So what if some people on this thread want the trinity? I also want a lot of whiners to either leave or come up with constructive arguments (not referring to you, because if I felt that way about you I wouldn't even have joined this discussion, just using an example of what I want), and I'm sure if that thread isn't closed it'll grow to at least 10 pages. Doesn't mean I will (or should, for that matter) get my wish. I won't make that thread because guru wasn't designed to voice that type of complaint.

Besides, didn't you just say you found a guild with a playstyle similar enough to the trinity that you enjoy? Isn't that middle ground you want already in the game, then?

Edited by Ghostwing, 19 December 2012 - 10:45 AM.


#282 blue cheez

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:24 AM

View PostTGIFrisbie, on 25 November 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

The bottom line on "Holy Trinity", players enjoy roles.  Some like to tank, some like to heal, some like to melee dps, some like ranged dps, some like pets, etc.

When roles are removed that are liked by any significant portion of the gaming community, there will be blowback.  This is what it boils down to, not if a role is necessary or obsolete.
I miss roles. IMO PvE is never going to feel challenging until roles are required.

#283 dawdler

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:55 AM

View Postblue cheez, on 19 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

I miss roles. IMO PvE is never going to feel challenging until roles are required.
How exactly did roles in say WoW make the game feel challenging? A healer looks at a health bar... oh look it went down a bit *click* back up! I am so great!!! Tanking was just going in first and smashing the enemies with the right skills (my DK used like... two... and facetanked through anything). Dpsing was just hitting the same target your tank is targetting. The only way to be an arse dpser was when you over-dpsed and caught aggro. I guess restraining yourself *is* challenging for some kids...

All that the strict roles in WoW do is allow you to lay blaim on someone. Is the challenge not being blamed by other players?

GW2 still have roles. Loose roles, but roles nonetheless.

I play as a Warrior. I have high toughness and have designed my traits around the mace and sheild, maxing defense. I am always into combat first and I am usually surrounded by at least 80% of the mobs in the group we fight, as they are trying to kill me. Do I not have a role? Or would you still call me a plain "warrior", despite knowing full well that I am not at all like the greatsword warrior next to me?

Edited by dawdler, 19 December 2012 - 10:56 AM.


#284 Swarfega

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

They will never implement tanks and healers into GW2. The whole game has been designed without either.

There's lots that annoys me about GW2.  I guess the combat is one of them.  I mainly play Guardian and find a lot of bosses require you to go ranged as they deal hard blows or mass point blank AoE.  I prefer melee and yet I can't play melee!  Thiefs stick with guns for the same reason.  I've been enjoying ranger for a while now just because there isn't that head ache of trying to look though all the huge fireworks to see if a boss is about to lay down a killer blow.

Where's the UW or FoW type content?

Give precursor's as the reward for finishing the story line.  400+g atm and rising...

Bring back collector armour from GW1. GW1 was about individual skill and not their item stats! Unique items came with appearance.

Change dungeon bosses so they have a strategy.  Fractals is a step in the right direction.

Wardrobe for town clothes? You made this mistake in GW1 and added it later so we could delete the hordes of event items. Why isn't this in GW2?

Make achievements more "fun".  Achievements make content last longer.  I don't like talking about WoW but the achievements in WoW and Diablo 3 are perfect.  They help change how you would normally fight a boss.  Being rewarded for salvaging items or killing 500 inquest are gained over time and not something you can group together with others to obtain.

Speaking of grouping GW2 is possibly the least social MMO I have played.  Nobody PUGs  together during levelling. Nobody talks. Give more XP for players if they group?

Dynamic Events are core to GW2.  I wish there was a list of all DE's in your current map so you could go to them.

Drop the waypoint costs.  People refuse to help each other on skill points etc as it costs them to travel to the other side of the map.  4s is small but in a game where currency is rare and very valuable (precursors) its a heck of a lot!  

Allow people to change talents for free when in a major town/city.

Move dungeon tokens into dedicated bank slots or make them like karma and gold where you have a page of your earned tokens.

Remove exploring WvW.  What use is having a random running around the map doing nothing to help his world win?

GvG?

Implement a wardrobe for normal game armour.  If I earn one set of armour why shouldn't I be able to use that skin when I feel like it? Armour stats should be unlocked via drops or dungeon tokens.  Once unlocked like the armour you can switch to that stat when you want (like talents maybe only in towns/cities).  You could then do gem sales so people can purchase unlocks.  More money for ANet?

Speaking of paid gems, allow paid race changes. I know this breaks personal story etc but thats one of the sacrifices you have to take.

Drop MF.  If the game needs it why not give 1% MF per kill on their current map.  Cap the % at whatever is required. MF gear is just the worst idea ever.

Crafting professions do nothing and only assist with huge amounts of XP during leveling. Give something to the player for maxing out their chosen trade. A unique appearance of some sort.

I have plenty more ideas.  ANet need to listen to their community more imo.

Edited by Swarfega, 19 December 2012 - 11:56 AM.


#285 Dasryn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:37 AM

anyone that says tanking is face roll is flat out exaggerating.  its not, there is a lot that goes into tanking, boss positioning, adds round up, kiting, interrupts, i mean for that guy to say he used two skills on his DK is just trolling.

#286 Arquenya

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:46 AM

View PostSwarfega, on 19 December 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Where's the UW or FoW type content?
I deninitely agree with most of the issues in your post.

What UW and FoW are concerned (yes I miss them too): I think it partially has to do with the waypoints inside dungeons. For instance, we all know that Arah is a very tough dungeon. But still, (almost) every one and his dog can finish it. Why? Because of the waypoints. You can wipe 3, 4, 5, 20 times and still finish it.

Not only did this remove a part of the tactical gameplay (running away in time and sneak back and use Rebirth) but it also made it unneccessary to fine tune and balance bosses. As long as they're killable (and as long as 1 person is still alive while the rest run back it won't reset hp) it's basically ok. That way dungeons can be hard or not but players don't really have to work together and know what they're doing. It's become just a matter of more time and repair costs.

Same with the red circle carpets. I don't find they're adding anything to the game but some extra annoyance.

I don't think everyone agrees with me but I think it would be nice if having cleared all 5 Arah paths and having Arah dungeon armour would actually mean something in terms of player skill.

Edited by Arquenya, 19 December 2012 - 11:56 AM.


#287 Dasryn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:48 AM

View PostGhostwing, on 19 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Besides, didn't you just say you found a guild with a playstyle similar enough to the trinity that you enjoy? Isn't that middle ground you want already in the game, then?

they dont play as much due to personal reasons and tbh, im not sure if im staying.  i was pushing towards 80 and i was running nothing but dungeons and i met these guys and they were really helpful and showed me tanking and healing was indeed possible.

#288 Swoopeh

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

View PostRickter, on 19 December 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

anyone that says tanking is face roll is flat out exaggerating.  its not, there is a lot that goes into tanking, boss positioning, adds round up, kiting, interrupts, i mean for that guy to say he used two skills on his DK is just trolling.

Having tanked heroic raids on my DK I concur and if you only use 2 abilities while tanking the more difficult content in WoW you're going to make the healers cry and say that DKs are the worst tanks ever etc.

But I do agree with Dawdler's sentiment that there are still roles though they are more subtle. Personally I like it this way - it feels more dynamic to be able to DPS, then switch to support on the fly and help negate incoming damage. What I do miss from WoW are the more technical boss mechanics. Of course it is quite difficult to create mechanics that people understand but at the same time not to create a "blame" atmosphere like WoW's where the most simple mechanics are completely ignored by part of the players resulting in wipes and frustration which leads to people expecting others to fail and pre-emptive insults coupled with very low patience/tolerance for failure.

I think that Anet should at least add a cast bar for bosses so you can see what they are casting and react to it even if the animation is completely obscured. Also possibly a target power bar (adrenaline/combo points/life force/etc). From there they can add new mechanics that play off that information without having to worry that the mechanics are unclear. Maybe the game needs a (temporary) taunt or an aggro reset for classes to make kiting easier which can add a host of new mechanics as well. Doesn't even need a trinity :)

#289 ChrisReitz

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:48 PM

Die useless thread Die... Trinity=waiting for hours... Trinity is something guild wars 2 was made to show you dont need it you can complain all you want about it... Just blood in water...

#290 Arquenya

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostChrisReitz, on 19 December 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Trinity=waiting for hours...
Not if all classes can change skills and build on the fly and everyone can fullfil any role.
Which was initially how I thought GW2 would work.

The "waiting for hours" is a result of enforced specialization, limited class options and inflexibility, not a result of the principle itself.

Edited by Arquenya, 19 December 2012 - 01:57 PM.


#291 Lythuun

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:20 AM

View PostArquenya, on 19 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Not if all classes can change skills and build on the fly and everyone can fullfil any role.

It still would raise wait times.

Just because you give me the ability to tank doesn't mean I'm going to do it. I play the game for fun, if I wanted to be forced into a particular role for a dungeon, honestly, I'd go back to Warcraft or Rift for it. I -enjoy- playing how I like to play with my support builds.

#292 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:23 AM

Amen, for sure there are (still) better games for roles. :)
I'm looking forward when able to talk about trinity and defensive/aggressive infusions and how they are related to a cloned trinity , with a new gw2 style let's say :cool:

#293 jthamind

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:30 AM

View PostAfyael, on 25 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

The thing with Tanks is that they promote boring gameplay

i would take that a step further and say the trinity in general promotes boring gameplay and tunnel vision. you don't have to worry about your health, because you have a dedicated healer to save you. you don't have to worry about an enemy chasing you, because you have a dedicated tank to keep them off you. you don't have to worry about your dps if you're a healer or tank, because you have three people spec'd to take enemies down for you.

in this game, you have to do it all to some degree. sure, Guardians and Warriors can tank somewhat, sure, an Elementalist can heal pretty well, but none of those can do it to the point where you'd call it a holy trinity. i like the fact that the game is made for people to be creative with their builds so they can do multiple things instead of being a one trick pony.

the system in this game feels really flexible. i feel like i could experiment with so many build types and constantly find something new. if you have a holy trinity, you're pretty much stuck doing what your class HAS to do.

#294 omar316

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:06 AM

View PostHex65000, on 18 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

Snip

I think the problem with your thought process is that you defined tanking as per being able to take alot of hits and he cannot heal himself.
Let me give you a free to play example. League of legends.
Character's I'm going to highlight: Garen, Teemo, Warwick.

Garen and Teemo are poles apart.
Garen's passive is health regen, Teemo's passive is stealth + attack speed.
Garen has in no way high base HP/defense.
In fact he loses out to more tanky characters. He is even classified as a Assassin/fighter.
But by speccing him using skill points and itemisation he can easily become tanky. Stack some dps materials and he becomes the worst AoE nightmare in teamfights.

Teemo is a soft target. That does not mean he cannot equip a Frozen Mallet/Rylai's Scepter + Thornmail + Wit's End to "tank".

Like wise Warwick, with his high base AS and healthpool can stack lifesteal and "Tank".

Diablo3 has got "tanks" in Babarians vs Monks.

Hell even many of GW2 builds talk about survivability aka tanking.
There is trinity in GW2 but it is a sub par experience. People are still using the trinity but the game design does not allow such gameplay. It rewards dps and useless dodge mechanics to force players to dodging. Why can't there be both? It makes it for a far more interesting and engaging fight.

PvE tanking is completely different from PvP tanking.
PvE will be static and it would require a certain role to be fulfilled no matter what.
Try running any dungeon with 5x Mesmers.

Tip: I would highly suggest playing different MMOs with the trinity setup before generalising trinity is all too simple.
An interesting boss fight.
At first it looks all too simple. We were using a 2 tank/ Main+ Off, 2 healers/ pure + hybrid and 2 dps/ sustained + burst.
This was just when the dungeon was released. As you can see the Chosen's morale 3 was still morale 3 before it was nerfed to a tank tree morale 4.

Video

View PostGhostwing, on 19 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

snip

There are also scripted systems to make trinity challenging. You make it sound standing and keeping aggro is all there is to trinity lol.
Like wise you also have pointed out it is indeed impossible to please everyone. By your standards, has GW2's combat system come to a state where it completely satisfies it's intended purpose to negate the trinity? If so can you kindly list it?

View Postblue cheez, on 19 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

I miss roles. IMO PvE is never going to feel challenging until roles are required.

This.

View PostRickter, on 19 December 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

anyone that says tanking is face roll is flat out exaggerating.  its not, there is a lot that goes into tanking, boss positioning, adds round up, kiting, interrupts, i mean for that guy to say he used two skills on his DK is just trolling.

Yeap. Though I never did play WoW.

View PostSwoopeh, on 19 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Having tanked heroic raids on my DK I concur and if you only use 2 abilities while tanking the more difficult content in WoW you're going to make the healers cry and say that DKs are the worst tanks ever etc.

But I do agree with Dawdler's sentiment that there are still roles though they are more subtle. Personally I like it this way - it feels more dynamic to be able to DPS, then switch to support on the fly and help negate incoming damage. What I do miss from WoW are the more technical boss mechanics. Of course it is quite difficult to create mechanics that people understand but at the same time not to create a "blame" atmosphere like WoW's where the most simple mechanics are completely ignored by part of the players resulting in wipes and frustration which leads to people expecting others to fail and pre-emptive insults coupled with very low patience/tolerance for failure.

I think that Anet should at least add a cast bar for bosses so you can see what they are casting and react to it even if the animation is completely obscured. Also possibly a target power bar (adrenaline/combo points/life force/etc). From there they can add new mechanics that play off that information without having to worry that the mechanics are unclear. Maybe the game needs a (temporary) taunt or an aggro reset for classes to make kiting easier which can add a host of new mechanics as well. Doesn't even need a trinity :)

This too. I strongly believe that moving away from the Trinity made it more difficult to define and assign roles in PvE boss fights. Thus all we get a re colourful ground puddles and 1 shot cheap ass high HP all dps mechanics.

View PostArquenya, on 19 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Not if all classes can change skills and build on the fly and everyone can fullfil any role.
Which was initially how I thought GW2 would work.

The "waiting for hours" is a result of enforced specialization, limited class options and inflexibility, not a result of the principle itself.

This^. A hundred times over. The problem is the implementation of the trinity. I thought TOR had the closest thing to perfecting this with a standard, Full dps, Full tank/heal, and full utility tree for all classes.

View Postjthamind, on 20 December 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

snip

Can you point out what type of flexibility you have. Perhaps you can go into details on how they can be creative with the builds? What would cause a Elementalist to spec into a heal build? When you say guardians and warriors can tank somewhat, what are they tanking exactly lol?

Hardly. Rezzing had been completely taken away from TOR. Only 1 class could rez at will and that had to be specced heavily into the healing tree. Everyone in TOR can rez, with a short CD. Likewise are you saying a Marauder with no shield mechanics cannot tank? Or an Assassin in tank spec wearing light armour cannot tank? I know of a few who rank 2 Ironbreakers and 4 Warrior Priests/ 6 DoKs who can run till boss 6/7 of ToVL, exploit or not.

#295 Ghostwing

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

View Postomar316, on 20 December 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

There are also scripted systems to make trinity challenging. You make it sound standing and keeping aggro is all there is to trinity lol.
Like wise you also have pointed out it is indeed impossible to please everyone. By your standards, has GW2's combat system come to a state where it completely satisfies it's intended purpose to negate the trinity? If so can you kindly list it?

I keep bringing aggro control up because it is a core mechanic of the trinity, and that's the one I'm mainly against. You can have heavy classes, medium classes, and light classes, heck, throw in some healing, whatever, but I personally do not like aggro control the way it's been handled in WoW or EQ. Any time you can get a boss or mobs to ignore everything else but one guy who has a healer repeatedly healing him to full health became boring to me. This is personal preference.

By my standards? Some GW2 fights you need to watch the boss animations, call targets, dodge, kite, coordinate, etc. The fractal hammer boss, the final fractal dredge mine boss, the last boss in AC p3 to some extent, the balthazar priest event, the pre-nerf grenth priest event, and a few others. There's enough "game" there to satisfy me. I've pulled off several clutch moments in GW2. I've kept the boss busy by myself, literally rolling and weaving instead of RNG dodge mechanics, while other people are rezzing and they're still in danger of the boss changing his mind and going after them, during which we'd have to switch places on the fly. Or rezzing someone right before they bleed out while we're under heavy AOE, etc. Or someone being immobilized and I rifle butt the mob away from him, hoping my ally will be free before it comes back to him again. Clutch moments rarely happens in WoW. If a tank is down, wipe. If a healer is down, wipe. Not because the rest of the group sucked, but because the bosses two-shots everyone who isn't a tank with a healer, and there's no dodging it. There are still clutch moments in a WoW raid, but in my time of playing WoW (end game raiding in BC, WotLK, and starter raids in Cata) there have been less clutch moments compared to my short time playing GW2.

Now, yeah, there are a lot of crappy fights in GW2, and a lot of the time I'm just watching Netflix while running a dungeon. But there are fights which take advantage of this system, as I listed above. And I enjoy them. I've stopped enjoying the trinity fights from WoW, but I don't go in the blizzard forums going on and on and on about how much I dislike the trinity and how another system is better. I just left and found another game.

Edited by Ghostwing, 20 December 2012 - 06:45 AM.


#296 Arquenya

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:22 AM

View PostLythuun, on 20 December 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

It still would raise wait times.

Just because you give me the ability to tank doesn't mean I'm going to do it. I play the game for fun, if I wanted to be forced into a particular role for a dungeon, honestly, I'd go back to Warcraft or Rift for it. I -enjoy- playing how I like to play with my support builds.
That may be or not be true, personally I like being a support class but I guess it's not for everyone.
I have no idea how many people would really mind laying a little more emphasis on survivability or support.

I think a kind of trinity should be possible but not neccessarily mandatory. If there's mechanics that allow for permanent kiting, fine as well. I just have the feeling that GW2 just doesn't allow for a lot of control, at least not to a big extend and not really "fine-tunable". Especially since bosses are often "immune" to CC skills (I hate that). The feeling that it's a group of 5 individuals that, if they play their individual class okish, are able to finish a dungeon or fractal is still something I'm not really happy with.

But then again, I think it's realistic (and to me: immersive) if you for instance have the option to body block enemies and protect the soft targets. GW had it but in GW2 they (imo unfortunately) can just run right through you.

Edited by Arquenya, 20 December 2012 - 11:24 AM.


#297 Hex65000

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View Postomar316, on 20 December 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

I think the problem with your thought process is that you defined tanking as per being able to take alot of hits and he cannot heal himself.
Let me give you a free to play example. League of legends.
Character's I'm going to highlight: Garen, Teemo, Warwick.
[...]
Diablo3 has got "tanks" in Babarians vs Monks.

Hell even many of GW2 builds talk about survivability aka tanking.
There is trinity in GW2 but it is a sub par experience. People are still using the trinity but the game design does not allow such gameplay. It rewards dps and useless dodge mechanics to force players to dodging. Why can't there be both? It makes it for a far more interesting and engaging fight.
[...]
Tip: I would highly suggest playing different MMOs with the trinity setup before generalising trinity is all too simple.
An interesting boss fight.
Yeah, I think I see a disconnect here...

You are 'leet...  I am not, and don't understand bits of your moon language. ;-D

I don't have a lot of interest in / understand half of what you described above. I've played a little League of Legends, usually v/s the computer. It was okay in small doses when you didn't have a griefer on your team. I played around with a few of the characters and had fun with it. I can't even remember the character I played most of the time, I think it was a Xena-like character. I also liked dorkin' with Rumble and Blitzcrank. The LoL-iverse seemed interesting, but I lost interest in the game after a while.

I do not want / own Diablo 3. As Stan Lee would say: "'Nuff said."

As for playing other MMO's, I think I'll pass on that. GW2 is plenty engrossing for me. There are things that bug me, but the prospect of taking a single playstyle/line does not excite me.

It seems the biggest problem people have with GW2 it is that it's not WoW. That's fine and all I guess. Perhaps they should play WoW then. I'm also not sure how that video you linked was supposed to be exciting. You had guys on the periphery pelting the boss in the center while the melee guy got in the boss' grill and kept his attention with occasional "run away" moments where there was a big AoEffect attack. Then he and one other made sure that the boss' attention was on the guy in the center and the cycle repeated. I'm sure you could tell me many nuances of what I just oversimplified. I also will say that the attack rate looked like an eternity between swings.

I think your concern over a lack of trinity hurting your experience is because you are probably used to that model and see no reason to change it. The model works in WoW so it is understandable why the model of the most popular MMO on the planet would make sense and be duplicated by others. Anet tried something different for good or bad -- maybe it's neither. If it annoys you bad enough, select an MMO model that appeals to you. I didn't know what to expect during the beta weekends and during BWeekend2 I was so frustrated with the game I was ready to say that I flushed my money on the Digital Deluxe. Once I figured out how to drive my character and realized the Guardian was a better "first timer" fit for me, I never looked back.

At this juncture, I am generally content with the game I bought and see no need to take my time playing MMOs elsewhere. There are things I'd like to see done differently, but if they institute a series of  'Leet checks' then those folks can go play with someone else. I've got a 70ton mech that is rusting because of the time I log in this game...

I am prone to playing the 'all-rounder' in RPGs and GW2 actually doesn't punish me in the long haul for taking that route. I do take steps to say, up my toughness when I'm PvPing, or perhaps using food to increase my power or precision so I can critical a little more often. I'd rather have a good time playing any role I like as the situation or my mood dictates versus the role everyone says I should. If I don't fight smart, I'm punished more often than a team of specialists. Which would make me argue that, I'm the one playing the game in "hard mode".

Hex.
[ First to fight! First to fall! ]

#298 omar316

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:40 AM

View PostGhostwing, on 20 December 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Snip

While aggro control is part of the core mechanic it is in no way a must to enforce.
CoF Path 2 with Magg.
1 person is holding aggro while 4 person in the room breaking the rock.
The game is using aggro mechanic. It is a boring implementation. If it would be scripted to be more engaging, to not pull him out of the room and have random aggro it would have made a better fight. Instead we get a crap fight.

Just because there are aggro mechanics does not mean the fights need to be boring in anyway. It is simply a part of making the fights engaging. If a boss is to have random aggro in the trinity would it be more engaging?

View PostHex65000, on 20 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Snip

Just because you are content with a sub par experience, it does not mean the game needs to be sub par.
And wtf is this moon thing? Or leet stuff you were ranting on about?

70ton mech? Lol. Keep to the topic please.

#299 Thanatos

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

Why in God's name are we having a discussion about something that is in essence a purely socio-psychological question on guru? This is an MMO game where some people function best and enjoy playing set/clear roles. And some people enjoy and excel at doing whatever the hell they want. You're discussing by disagreeing about each other's psychological make-up.

If you can excuse my rather concise resume about the issue, this is about it really.

Edit: We can't hold Anet responsible for not catering to all wants and needs in a single game. That sort of game does not exist.

Edited by Thanatos, 21 December 2012 - 02:04 AM.


#300 Ghostwing

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:08 AM

View Postomar316, on 21 December 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

While aggro control is part of the core mechanic it is in no way a must to enforce.
CoF Path 2 with Magg.
1 person is holding aggro while 4 person in the room breaking the rock.
The game is using aggro mechanic. It is a boring implementation. If it would be scripted to be more engaging, to not pull him out of the room and have random aggro it would have made a better fight. Instead we get a crap fight.

Just because there are aggro mechanics does not mean the fights need to be boring in anyway. It is simply a part of making the fights engaging. If a boss is to have random aggro in the trinity would it be more engaging?

Yeah, I think that boss fight is actually bugged. You shouldn't be able to pull him out of the room and completely take him out of the equation. That's pretty stupid. That ghost guy doesn't do any damage, all he does is buff the acolytes. That's not a flaw with a trinity-less system, that's a flaw in the programming.

And what do you mean aggro control doesn't need to be enforced for the trinity. Without a "taunt" or whatever "force the enemy to attack one guy" mechanic there wouldn't be a "tank" class. You'd just be a highly defense specced guy not using your defense (because the enemies are attacking everyone else equally) and doing crap DPS in comparison to the guy who is balanced or the min/max offense guy who is great at dodging.

Edited by Ghostwing, 21 December 2012 - 02:15 AM.





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