Hex65000, on 18 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:
I think the problem with your thought process is that you defined tanking as per being able to take alot of hits and he cannot heal himself.
Let me give you a free to play example. League of legends.
Character's I'm going to highlight: Garen, Teemo, Warwick.
Garen and Teemo are poles apart.
Garen's passive is health regen, Teemo's passive is stealth + attack speed.
Garen has in no way high base HP/defense.
In fact he loses out to more tanky characters. He is even classified as a Assassin/fighter.
But by speccing him using skill points and itemisation he can easily become tanky. Stack some dps materials and he becomes the worst AoE nightmare in teamfights.
Teemo is a soft target. That does not mean he cannot equip a Frozen Mallet/Rylai's Scepter + Thornmail + Wit's End to "tank".
Like wise Warwick, with his high base AS and healthpool can stack lifesteal and "Tank".
Diablo3 has got "tanks" in Babarians vs Monks.
Hell even many of GW2 builds talk about survivability aka tanking.
There is trinity in GW2 but it is a sub par experience. People are still using the trinity but the game design does not allow such gameplay. It rewards dps and useless dodge mechanics to force players to dodging. Why can't there be both? It makes it for a far more interesting and engaging fight.
PvE tanking is completely different from PvP tanking.
PvE will be static and it would require a certain role to be fulfilled no matter what.
Try running any dungeon with 5x Mesmers.
Tip: I would highly suggest playing different MMOs with the trinity setup before generalising trinity is all too simple.
An interesting boss fight.
At first it looks all too simple. We were using a 2 tank/ Main+ Off, 2 healers/ pure + hybrid and 2 dps/ sustained + burst.
This was just when the dungeon was released. As you can see the Chosen's morale 3 was still morale 3 before it was nerfed to a tank tree morale 4.
Ghostwing, on 19 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:
There are also scripted systems to make trinity challenging. You make it sound standing and keeping aggro is all there is to trinity lol.
Like wise you also have pointed out it is indeed impossible to please everyone. By your standards, has GW2's combat system come to a state where it completely satisfies it's intended purpose to negate the trinity? If so can you kindly list it?
blue cheez, on 19 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:
I miss roles. IMO PvE is never going to feel challenging until roles are required.
Rickter, on 19 December 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:
anyone that says tanking is face roll is flat out exaggerating. its not, there is a lot that goes into tanking, boss positioning, adds round up, kiting, interrupts, i mean for that guy to say he used two skills on his DK is just trolling.
Yeap. Though I never did play WoW.
Swoopeh, on 19 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:
Having tanked heroic raids on my DK I concur and if you only use 2 abilities while tanking the more difficult content in WoW you're going to make the healers cry and say that DKs are the worst tanks ever etc.
But I do agree with Dawdler's sentiment that there are still roles though they are more subtle. Personally I like it this way - it feels more dynamic to be able to DPS, then switch to support on the fly and help negate incoming damage. What I do miss from WoW are the more technical boss mechanics. Of course it is quite difficult to create mechanics that people understand but at the same time not to create a "blame" atmosphere like WoW's where the most simple mechanics are completely ignored by part of the players resulting in wipes and frustration which leads to people expecting others to fail and pre-emptive insults coupled with very low patience/tolerance for failure.
I think that Anet should at least add a cast bar for bosses so you can see what they are casting and react to it even if the animation is completely obscured. Also possibly a target power bar (adrenaline/combo points/life force/etc). From there they can add new mechanics that play off that information without having to worry that the mechanics are unclear. Maybe the game needs a (temporary) taunt or an aggro reset for classes to make kiting easier which can add a host of new mechanics as well. Doesn't even need a trinity
This too. I strongly believe that moving away from the Trinity made it more difficult to define and assign roles in PvE boss fights. Thus all we get a re colourful ground puddles and 1 shot cheap ass high HP all dps mechanics.
Arquenya, on 19 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:
Not if all classes can change skills and build on the fly and everyone can fullfil any role.
Which was initially how I thought GW2 would work.
The "waiting for hours" is a result of enforced specialization, limited class options and inflexibility, not a result of the principle itself.
This^. A hundred times over. The problem is the implementation of the trinity. I thought TOR had the closest thing to perfecting this with a standard, Full dps, Full tank/heal, and full utility tree for all classes.
jthamind, on 20 December 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:
Can you point out what type of flexibility you have. Perhaps you can go into details on how they can be creative with the builds? What would cause a Elementalist to spec into a heal build? When you say guardians and warriors can tank somewhat, what are they tanking exactly lol?
Hardly. Rezzing had been completely taken away from TOR. Only 1 class could rez at will and that had to be specced heavily into the healing tree. Everyone in TOR can rez, with a short CD. Likewise are you saying a Marauder with no shield mechanics cannot tank? Or an Assassin in tank spec wearing light armour cannot tank? I know of a few who rank 2 Ironbreakers and 4 Warrior Priests/ 6 DoKs who can run till boss 6/7 of ToVL, exploit or not.