434 replies to this topic

[fatrodmc]

I loved the trinity in GW1...but I am really happy that it is gone in GW2.

Of the things annoying me in GW2 right now (weapon grind, utility skills, elites, dungeons), the combat is definitely NOT one of them.

They have done a great job of creating a system where people can just play the way they want.

The only changes I would want to see are bosses with less HP, stronger attacks, and attacks that are easier to dodge.

[Reason on Cooldown]

Skolops, on 25 November 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

See, I (and I suppose others) disagree on this one point::I think the game is already broken because the trinity doesn't exist.  Adding it would be fixing it, as far as I'm concerned.

Fair to say.  I be interested in hearing why its absence makes the game broken.  Unless I totally missed that in the above responses.  I don't think I agree with your post above that claims that we see the trinity in MMOs because it's simply meant to be there.  If that's not too crude a summary of your point.  We don't see a lot of reality TV shows because they were meant to be all there is on TV.  The entertainment industry thrives on copying what appears successful.  I think that's a better explanation for why we see so much Trinity in MMOs.  If, indeed, GW2 combat fails without the trinity (obviously a matter of opinion), then perhaps it's because they still mimic other MMO combat systems too much.

Skolops, on 25 November 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

That said, I actually wouldn't suggest adding it, because it would change the game into something radically different.  If this is what you mean by saying it would break the game, then I'd agree with you.  I think this game is what it is - and that's fine for those who like it - and trying to do something like adding full out healing and taking would make it something else.  I don't think the game is especially good as it is, but that's me.  For those who do like it, the change would be too much.

No I meant adding it would break the game because it would imbalance groups, you would either HAVE to have tanks/healers in group to be viable, or groups WITH tanks/healers would be unstoppable.  Indeed, it would make the game into something different, but that is not what I meant by game breaking.  More like philosophy breaking for ANet.  Although since you support the Trinity, I would think you'd encourage making the game something else, considering you see it as a requisite component of an MMO.

TL;DR - We all have different opinions on this issue, and no one answer is right.

Juanele, on 26 November 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

What they really need to is emphasize the use of combos. It should be used to create teamwork so that it is important to use whether with a group or outside of one.

Don't put back the trinity. If they ever did that it would put the nail in the coffin of the game as far as I'm concerned.

I think that is a fantastic idea that merits further consideration.

[Dasryn]

Juanele, on 26 November 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

What they really need to is emphasize the use of combos. It should be used to create teamwork so that it is important to use whether with a group or outside of one.

Don't put back the trinity. If they ever did that it would put the nail in the coffin of the game as far as I'm concerned.

i like this idea, it reminds me of Aion gameplay, thats one of the good things about it was the combo system with the skills.

but on the subject of making the game less shallow, honestly we need 3 more utility slots and maybe a second set of weapon skills making a total of 10 weapon skills and 7 utilities.

[fatrodmc]

Agree, combos are the future!

[ShezuTsukai]

This thread has lacked the mention of Heroes from GW1 and their need due to lack of 3 roles being filled by real players. Or in my case where primary Assassin was the most ridiculed and rejected class; I ran with mostly heroes through all of GWAMM.

Now playing Thief I can and have done every dungeon without any "heavy" or healer dedicate. Not that my group rejected anyone but we simply took the first players to answer the call "LFM" and played a very enjoyable game.

[Brizna]

It is very obvious the removal of the trinity has alleviated the waiting, in this it's been a success. But it is just as obvious that this easeness to group has come at price of blandness and greatly replcing the importance of preplaning for a fight with more twitchiness and reflexes which are not the best proofs of gaming skill according to my tastes.

Also as some other have said, it's true the trinity isn't totally gone, people can lean more or less to each of the vertexes of the triangle formed by DAMAGE - SURVIVALITY - HEAL, but give me any half decent monk build of GW1 and it will outheal most full parties of GW2. It's at least 80% gone.

[Larsen]

MisterB, on 25 November 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

ArenaNet never removed the so-called trinity from GW2. It was never there to begin with.

No, they removed it from the MMORPG (this one, not all of them) where it has been a fundamental element since the genre's inception, and replaced it with almost nothing. You can dodge twice and all classes have a healing ability, but the former is of questionable use - especially since it forces considerable movement in the process - and the latter isn't too big of a change. Instead, they made fights artificially long by giving mobs too much health, and overtuned damage in many places so you get one- or twoshotted.

It's like they only really implemented half of the system. Removing the real healer and tank roles made it a lot harder to survive, but they didn't adjust the combat system very much in order to incorporate that change. There are still plenty of attacks with no telegraphing, making it virtually impossible to dodge a lot of things, and there's still a lot of AoE damage that you just have to eat. Removing the trinity would have been interesting if they'd done better with the game's combat system in order to accomodate such a big change. As it stands, it almost feels like playing any other given MMORPG but with an all-DPS party. It's doable, but it often takes a dull, unsatisfying approach that doesn't feel very tactical and doesn't utilize the game's classes very well. It also feels incredibly luck-based (RNG) because you can get unavoidably screwed by an unlucky sequence of incoming attacks that nobody can deal with since there's no healer and not much left to do about it after spending your very few defensive options.

When I still played, I felt like there were far too many unavoidable deaths that happened because, oh well, the mob AoE'd a second time before my healing skill had come off cooldown. There was no other way to deal with it. I was auto-killed by RNG way too frequently. With no healer to handle that sort of variable, the mechanics need to be a lot more balanced in order for the combat system to be good, and it just isn't. In fact, where GW2 needed to be more tightly tuned than other MMORPGs due to the lack of roles, it was usually the opposite -- poorly tuned, overly random, often impossible for the player to react to.

They also implemented far too many trip-up mechanics, giving almost every mob in the game at least one form of CC. This is just irritating to deal with and serves little purpose other than delaying the player at every turn. Apparently the intention is that you need to dodge this, but that doesn't work because 1) there's often no warning for these attacks and 2) dodging is insanely disruptive to yourself because it flings you ten meters in the opposite direction, making it a bit like a self-CC of its own that doesn't really turn out to be a much better alternative than just eating the stun or whatever.

Edited by Larsen, 26 November 2012 - 04:35 AM.

[Reason on Cooldown]

Brizna, on 26 November 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

but give me any half decent monk build of GW1 and it will outheal most full parties of GW2. It's at least 80% gone.

That was my point, you have to expand your thinking and not look at it as just 'healer = top off everyone's health bar.'  Boons like protection and aegis can prevent some damage altogether.  The ultimate effect being similar: keep the health bar as high as possible.  Keeping people alive as long as possible.  And with everyone having their own burst heal, sometimes you just need to stall.  Remember games with dedicated healers generally take away other classes' ability to heal at all.

It's not pure healing,  Such a thing does not exist in GW2.  And of course a dedicated healer from another game is going to outheal characters in GW2.  That is its role in that game.  No one in GW2 is meant to fill that role, so the comparison is apples to oranges.

[Trei]

Rickter, on 25 November 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

im not hard wired, i truly enjoyed tanking.  and i just now on my other monitor, fought a centaur champion in the shiverpeaks and myself, my wife and two other people fighting him all agreed that that fight is doable if we maybe hada dedicated healer.

Do you enjoy the role of tanking or the specific mechanic of aggro management in tanking?
Or did you instead like how the rest of the game has to depend on you?

What is the core function of a tank?
Why do you think the role was dubbed "tank" at the beginning?
All it referred to originally was the fact that tanks in the game and the main battle tanks we know in real life share one common characteristic: heavy-as-hell armored to the neck.

That's all it ever meant.

You can still be a tank in GW2 and be very successful.
The only difference is the game, your group, your guild, no longer revolves around your VIP schedule for any meaningful progress.

I would welcome any player whose character is able to withstand and survive boss attacks as and when the boss shifts its attention to him, not because I want him to perpetually take damage for the group but because having a tough, hardy groupmate that does not go down easily is a great asset in itself.

I'm not sure why there are players that still claim roles got removed when the trinity was abolished.
There are still roles here, guys.
There are many more roles one can take, not just the standard tank,healer, dps.
You are just not welded to any one of them based on the profession you chose at the beginning.

Do you go into PuG dungeons and just zerg through it?
Or do you make an effort to ask each group member what they are good at, then try to organise some semblance of a strategy for various encounters and contingencies?

"Oh, so we have 3 rangers, but one is support spirits, one is full LB power nuker, and the other has a blinged out bear tank..."
What would you do with them?

"Oh, we got two warriors with the same kind of defensive spec..." Do you kick one out then? Ask one of them to *respec?  
Or do you try work out a good way to utilise them both in a fun way for everyone?



*Respec meaning go back to town and reset all traits. Just requesting for someone to change around some traits in their existing spec is totally fine.

[Krazzar]

All of those that say there never was any trinity in GW2 are sadly mistaken. It's ok, most people stick to that tagline and misinterpret what Anet actually said so you're not alone. What GW2 did differently was not requiring the trinity and not designing each area with a specific group structure. Most games are designed with X number of healers, X number of tanks, and X number of DPS-ers so the encounter can be fine-tuned. GW2 is designed in a similar way where encounters have certain requirements, but those requirements can be completed by any profession and each player can change what they are doing in the middle of a fight to take care of a different requirement. The difference is in how professions are designed; in most games a profession does predominately one thing and one thing only, in GW2 that requirement is split between multiple players. There is a trinity, there just aren't forced roles decided by a trinity, that's the difference Anet talked about.

"Trinity" is not a bad thing, in fact it will happen in any game where there are multiple roles and drawbacks to each profession or class. It happens in Battlefield games, the Planetside games, strategy games, and pretty much every game where teamwork can occur. The difference between those games and a traditional MMO is those teamwork actions are not strictly defined before you hit "play" or join a group, the same is true of GW2.

Edited by Krazzar, 26 November 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Reason on Cooldown]

Larsen, on 26 November 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

snip

I use dodge quite frequently--and still probably not enough--and fine it very useful.  And you can dodge in any direction, even toward your opponent, so there is some measure of control where you end up.  I've found very few cases where I'm afraid to dodge, because I might go over a cliff or something similar.  There are numerous cases in MMOs where you have to move off a spot or else take tremendous damage; dodging just gets you there faster.

Also, there are other ways of dealing with CC other than just dodging it.  Condition removal and stun breakers can remove it.  Stability can prevent most from affecting you altogether.  And blinds (and your own CC) can keep it from landing altogether.

Granted I speak from the perspective of someone who is stacking toughness and vitality and using a support build.  So at times I feel unkillable, especially in 1 on 1 scenarios.

[Naginto]

Lilitu, on 25 November 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

I'm happy for anet to prove me wrong, but in terms of fun boss fight mechanics, I feel the holy trinity allows for far more flexibility than the chaotic mess we have now.

People who say "holy trinity is bad because it causes bland tank & spank fights" can't see the wood for the trees if you ask me. It opens up more options. It's the opposite of bland when used properly.

The first part of this post is a great observation. In terms of development the trinity really makes things easier to implement. That is the best argument I've seen to incorporate it.

The second statement, is sadly lacking in insight. My argument, as pointed out by the OP, is that the rest of the games current mechanics depend on "tagging". Be it dungeons, Orr, Frostgorge, or any other Dynamic Content - you are required to do "X" amount of damage to get a chance at looting the corpse. Tanks/clerics would be severly screwed in this regard. I have been playing a tank since 1999 in MMO's and I feel torn about it. Fortunately the game design makes me realize it wouldn't work here.

[kendro1200]

Naginto, on 26 November 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

The first part of this post is a great observation. In terms of development the trinity really makes things easier to implement. That is the best argument I've seen to incorporate it.

The second statement, is sadly lacking in insight. My argument, as pointed out by the OP, is that the rest of the games current mechanics depend on "tagging". Be it dungeons, Orr, Frostgorge, or any other Dynamic Content - you are required to do "X" amount of damage to get a chance at looting the corpse. Tanks/clerics would be severly screwed in this regard. I have been playing a tank since 1999 in MMO's and I feel torn about it. Fortunately the game design makes me realize it wouldn't work here.

Yeah the annoying part was that originally more support or control orientated builds were supposed to get credit just doing what they do.  Somewhere along in development, Anet decided to scrap the "As long as you're active in combat and doing stuff, you'll get proper credit" and switched to the damage tiered system for awarding credit.  The latter is the easiest to code, but really kills a lot of build diversity early on and in the overworld.

[Naginto]

Krazzar, on 26 November 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

All of those that say there never was any trinity in GW2 are sadly mistaken. It's ok, most people stick to that tagline and misinterpret what Anet actually said so you're not alone. What GW2 did differently was not requiring the trinity and not designing each area with a specific group structure. Most games are designed with X number of healers, X number of tanks, and X number of DPS-ers so the encounter can be fine-tuned. GW2 is designed in a similar way where encounters have certain requirements, but those requirements can be completed by any profession and each player can change what they are doing in the middle of a fight to take care of a different requirement. The difference is in how professions are designed; in most games a profession does predominately one thing and one thing only, in GW2 that requirement is split between multiple players. There is a trinity, there just aren't forced roles decided by a trinity, that's the difference Anet talked about.

"Trinity" is not a bad thing, in fact it will happen in any game where there are multiple roles and drawbacks to each profession or class. It happens in Battlefield games, the Planetside games, strategy games, and pretty much every game where teamwork can occur. The difference between those games and a traditional MMO is those teamwork actions are not strictly defined before you hit "play" or join a group, the same is true of GW2.

I'm sure you mean well, but I truly don't know what the fark you're talking about. The trinity is a decades old standard that harkens back to D & D. It is the foundation of traditional MMO's. It encompasses agro control onto a tank, the ability of the healer to out-heal the dps of the target, and the freedom for the young kids to dps the crap out of the target. Being locked into these roles, and sacrificing some ability/other aspects of the game were a core feature of the genre. The restrictions or parameters of each role were built into every game before you "hit play".

Edited by Naginto, 26 November 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[LavaSquid]

We have "Rez-er" in GW2. Close enough.

[Trei]

Larsen, on 26 November 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

No, they removed it from the MMORPG (this one, not all of them) where it has been a fundamental element since the genre's inception, and replaced it with almost nothing. You can dodge twice and all classes have a healing ability, but the former is of questionable use - especially since it forces considerable movement in the process - and the latter isn't too big of a change. Instead, they made fights artificially long by giving mobs too much health, and ov...

...

...They also implemented far too many trip-up mechanics, giving almost every mob in the game at least one form of CC. This is just irritating to deal with and serves little purpose other than delaying the player at every turn. Apparently the intention is that you need to dodge this, but that doesn't work because 1) there's often no warning for these attacks and 2) dodging is insanely disruptive to yourself because it flings you ten meters in the opposite direction, making it a bit like a self-CC of its own that doesn't really turn out to be a much better alternative than just eating the stun or whatever.

Does your group not have blind?
Does your group not have interrupts?
Knockbacks? Immobs?

What I am reading in this thread is not the failure of a post-trinity combat system.
What I see is a PEBKAC issue.

The group game has gone up in difficulty due to key combat responsibilities being reshuffled to be shared amongst all group members instead of just a tank and a healer.
Players are still having problems coming to grips with that and apparently not able to step up their level of play to match.
We all need to learn how best we can perform all the various roles, and not just depend on someone else to do it.

There will of course be some roles each one of our characters are built for, or naturally prefer as players.
However, to go into a dungeon solely thinking "I'm the control guy, I'm the control guy, if there's not enough support it isn't my fault" is just wrong.
On the flipside, it is just as silly to go into the dungeon with no role.

Know your role, but always be prepared to take on others' (even if you are not optimally spec'd for it) when the need arises.

In this game, we can do that.


EDIT: in fact the ability to be able to recognise or even anticipate this above mentioned need in a timely manner is great player skill in of itself.

Edited by Trei, 26 November 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[Age]

It also involed an Elementalist which was never required in a coop mission to beat it.It did not take long to find a Monk as one would soon come along or was already there.I can say it made for of a fun game with group made up like this as well as in other rpgs.what I read in thisa thread is Warriors/tanks and Monks but no mention of Elementalist.They were not reqiured to get the missions done.It is what tunrs me off of this game when playing my Warrior.

When it came to heros or henchies it may as well as been a single player game.It doesn't take to long for Warrior to go down if they don't watch their health ball and heal up.

I would say if there were Monks in this game you would have to pay to be ported to the way point.They could res you oh yeah other can to but they should be the only ones.

What do you mean combos are the future if by macos they aren't as that comes from another game called Perfect World and you still need a Cleric in that game to do dungeons and Territorial Wars?

In whole it just make this for unskilled which GW requires skill a great deal of it.

Edited by Age, 26 November 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[XSevSpreeX]

Overall I think it was a good idea to remove it. Tanks made the game boring and gimmicky. I liked playing as a monk in GW1, but 85% of the time when you were putting a group together it was the monks you had to spend time looking for and I don't miss that at all. Heroes helped with that, but sometimes heroes couldn't quite perform the way you needed them to (and there's no denying that a player that isn't a noob will be better than a hero) and because of GW2's design, heroes wouldn't work too well, although Anet did originally plan an AI sidekick system.

[Trei]

Naginto, on 26 November 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

The first part of this post is a great observation. In terms of development the trinity really makes things easier to implement. That is the best argument I've seen to incorporate it.

I have to strongly disagree.

Past the first instant you learn the fight, everything is supposed to be locked down by the tank.
The dps would be doing... dps. Their own minigame with their own little cooldown counter.
The healers would be playing wackamole, again their own minigame.
The tanks would be playing hero, yet again their own minigame.

You do your part, I do mine. Its a whole elaborate fancy choreograph at the end of the day.

Everyone interacting with basically just the target, hardly with each other.
You don't need to know if I am in trouble, you can't do a thing to help me since all you can do is max uber dps.


There is no choreography here in Tyria.
Things will go wrong but it will not always mean a wipe as long as someone, anyone, can adapt on the fly, step up and take over.

"Healing guy dead? My pet can ress her!"
instead of
"Healer dead, okay wipe it."

[Valkaire]

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I run a support dedicated elementalist (mostly support via boons and healing while using cc and condition damage to assist my team) and my group actually does better because of it, even though I don't do as much damage as the next person. I also play with a tank-specced warrior and guardian who split the aggro between themselves while still doing a decent amount of damage.

I guess it might not be as visible in pug groups but I can definitely see it in organized guild groups, you just can't think of it as tank/heals. It's more of tanky-dps and support. After primarily playing a restoration druid in WoW for years I find this new definition of healers a refreshing change =]

and this group set up isn't needed at all. I've had a run with 4 thiefs + me when I was full condition damage (nothing about me was supporty pretty much) and we still did fine.

Edited by Valkaire, 26 November 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Ardeni]

Personally I strongly dislike the idea of bringing the trinity back. Even if it was introduced like "you can still complete content without healers and tanks" (which doesn't even differ from the current system a lot) the  people who are already thinking that having a full lvl 80 party is mandatory would then require tanks and healers in their groups. Guardians are often thought as being mandatory already and sometimes I have to do lots of convincing to even get a group full of medium/light armour gear to go into a dungeon, after which they usually wonder how easy it was without guadians or warriors. If the healer/tank system is introduced in any way more prominent than what it is today, it is the same as simply making it just as mandatory as it has been in other MMOs. I enjoy the easy grouping for dungeons and swapping mains for alts too much to be interested in anything that the trinity could bring to the game.

[Krazzar]

Naginto, on 26 November 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

I'm sure you mean well, but I truly don't know what the fark you're talking about. The trinity is a decades old standard that harkens back to D & D. It is the foundation of traditional MMO's. It encompasses agro control onto a tank, the ability of the healer to out-heal the dps of the target, and the freedom for the young kids to dps the crap out of the target. Being locked into these roles, and sacrificing some ability/other aspects of the game were a core feature of the genre. The restrictions or parameters of each role were built into every game before you "hit play".

Try reading the post again, it's in plain terms.

Edited by Krazzar, 26 November 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Arewn]

In holy trinity games, I generally tank and dps, and while I enjoy playing those roles in those games, I would not want to see them here in GW2.

I actually really enjoy the system in GW2, every group member has to operate on all levels, no sitting around focusing on a single role thinking "spam this spam this spam this, if anything outside of this happens, not my fault". Sure you can lean a lot more towards one role then the others but you still are capable of, and should be ready to when needed, do a bit of everything.
The structured group combat system in GW2 could certainly use some work, but a holy trinity is not the answer. Arena Net just needs the time and experience to learn how to develop better encounters for this type of game.
No holy trinity for 5man group combat in an MMORPG isn't exactly common, it will take time both for players and for the developers to flesh it out and make(or play through in the case of players) appropriate encounters for it.

[lalangamena]

lack of trinity is not bothering me, its a blessing.

healing: every n00b  (sorry for rudeness) is responsible for his own behind... no more "HAEL ME!!!!!! ..." in chat.
if I can I will heal, but I am not expected to nanny you just because I am elementalist or guardian.

tanking: no more threat* generating skills, tanking becomes kiting and mitigating, instead of "taunting" everyone can "tank", the key is COORDINATION and COOPERATION, it is PUG unfriendly, but guild parties are rewarded.


what bothers me is the lack of crowd control in PVE. all the CC is balanced around PVP, and  is somewhat inadequate for PVE (dungeons, fractals, etc)
it either don't work at all - like defiance on bosses.
or very short duration (3/4 of a second stun/root anybody?)
or on very high cooldown to make it useful.

one of these have to be re-considered, since you cant remove defiance from bosses as it will break the bossfights, and you cant reduce the cooldowns from skills due to PVP, the only logical thing is increase the CC duration on mobs by 2 at least.

*invisibility is a temporary threat dump though.

[Princess Fatora]

Quote

where it has been a fundamental element since the genre's inception

No offence, but once again, you display your complete ignorance about the entire genre.
It has not been a fundamental element since the genre's inception. It only is a fundamental element in WoW/EQ clones. The genre is twice as old as these.

Quote

It is the foundation of traditional MMO's

Wrong. Seriously, you guys know literally nothing about MMOs. And it's sad.

Typical for WoW-mmoers though: Completely unable to see outside of your little box. Proudly, you wear your mindcuffs. God forbid you see something new (or old, in this case). No, it must all be WoW-ish statgrind, with fixed role so individual thinking is removed as much as possible.

My gosh, people, at least do some basic research before you spout nonsense like this. Just looking at the, oh, ten first MMOs, and, oh, some of the most popular and long living ones would already show how wrong and clueless you really are.


Kids these days. Clueless as heck.

[Serris]

i do not understand OP. you can complete all content without requiring a tank?
there are still roles to play, but these roles can be filled by almost every class?

gw2 is far from perfect, but it's got those things right.

[Trei]

Naginto, on 26 November 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

I'm sure you mean well, but I truly don't know what the fark you're talking about. The trinity is a decades old standard that harkens back to D & D. It is the foundation of traditional MMO's. It encompasses agro control onto a tank, the ability of the healer to out-heal the dps of the target, and the freedom for the young kids to dps the crap out of the target. Being locked into these roles, and sacrificing some ability/other aspects of the game were a core feature of the genre. The restrictions or parameters of each role were built into every game before you "hit play".

I'm not sure how you could compare threat mechanics of old school D&D table top games with those of MMORPGS.

One does not simply just press high threat generating ability hot key to control "aggro" in a routine fashion like you do in MMOs.

You have to actively pull all stops to convince your DM that your fighter is at that moment posing the highest threat to the wellbeing of his dragon.
Break some eggs or something, shield your healer as deterrence etc...
It's up to the DM, not some fixed script that just about guarantee you get it's attention with "yo momma" jokes.

Do you see the difference?

Edited by Trei, 26 November 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[chrisbdrake]

The trinity is sooo 2005.  Welcome to 2012.

Trei, on 26 November 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

I have to strongly disagree.

Past the first instant you learn the fight, everything is supposed to be locked down by the tank.
The dps would be doing... dps. Their own minigame with their own little cooldown counter.
The healers would be playing wackamole, again their own minigame.
The tanks would be playing hero, yet again their own minigame.

You do your part, I do mine. Its a whole elaborate fancy choreograph at the end of the day.

Obviously, you are not a game designer.  If you were, you would not be praising the concept of cooldown.  Cooldown is a crutch used by bad designers.  It needs to be removed whenever possible.  Your example depends on it.  Your position is flawed.

[Trei]

chrisbdrake, on 26 November 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

The trinity is sooo 2005.  Welcome to 2012.



Obviously, you are not a game designer.  If you were, you would not be praising the concept of cooldown.  Cooldown is a crutch used by bad designers.  It needs to be removed whenever possible.  Your example depends on it.  Your position is flawed.

How did you ever get the impression that I was praising it?
I don't recall voicing any opinion on the merits of the cooldown mechanic.

Please read my other posts in this thread for a better idea of where I stand in this discussion.
Did you even read the rest of my post that you quoted?

Edited by Trei, 26 November 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[B3aT]

More or less the trinity is still there, but hidden under the engine hood and heavily nerfed, the 2 major things that are missing are the manual aggro button and the overheal/mass debuff removals.

The agro formula is working in a similar way like in other games, only way to remove the tank is to make (lot) smarter AI scripts for mobs and bosses, nu just an aggro formula. After reading some topics I tested the parameters (toughness,low hp, proximity, damage etc) in dungeons and tanking is working fine (not 90+% like in a regular MMORPG) but still in 50+%  of cases is working to control, you just need more coordination with the team. Most of the time mobs are going for my guardian or for a warrior, except are cases when other players have very low hp or have critical spikes.

Healing is more difficult, is spread across other buffs/debuffs like blind,aegis,protection and less pure heal (but 1k heal to allies at dodge is ok).

Anyway I`m happy that the trinity is "gone" especially from the social and visual part of the game (lf healer ftw).

Trinity was a bad thing, way too rigid, the new system allows players to be more versatile, just a few tweaks and can fulfill another role, more suited for the next encountering.