Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * * - - 5 votes

GW2 and the Trinity

tanks healers dungeons

  • Please log in to reply
434 replies to this topic

#421 Arquenya

Arquenya

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1204 posts
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Guild Tag:[DVDF]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 10 January 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

How was using a perma sin in FoW (MT and even the T1 and T2 to solo) or in UW (LT and all the terras to solo the other stuff) not using tanking?
It depends on how you define "tanking".

Originally, a "tank" was a heavily armoured class (hence "tank") with a lot of threat mechanics that held aggro while DPS did DPS and healers did healing. In that way, stance tanking mesmers, perma sins or bodyblocking already is a deviation. If for one way or another, you can cause a mob or boss to attack you and not someone else, that's not "tanking" per definition.

Because the only alternative is a complete random chaos.

View PostFenice_86, on 11 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

GW2, the game where Kiting all day/night beated any role/rule to survive
Exactly. And I seriously wonder if that's really supposed to be the ultimate game experience.

#422 Gilles VI

Gilles VI

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3311 posts
  • Location:Belgium
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[ICE]
  • Server:Far Shiverpeaks

Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostArquenya, on 11 January 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

It depends on how you define "tanking".

Originally, a "tank" was a heavily armoured class (hence "tank") with a lot of threat mechanics that held aggro while DPS did DPS and healers did healing. In that way, stance tanking mesmers, perma sins or bodyblocking already is a deviation. If for one way or another, you can cause a mob or boss to attack you and not someone else, that's not "tanking" per definition.

Because the only alternative is a complete random chaos.

So a perma sin tanking, while MoP necro and 100b war/VoS derv spiked, and a UA monk heals, isn't exactly what tank & spank is all about?

#423 Ovi Bell

Ovi Bell

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 45 posts
  • Location:Dragonbrand
  • Guild Tag:[ENat]

Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostArquenya, on 11 January 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

It depends on how you define "tanking".

Originally, a "tank" was a heavily armoured class (hence "tank") with a lot of threat mechanics that held aggro while DPS did DPS and healers did healing. In that way, stance tanking mesmers, perma sins or bodyblocking already is a deviation. If for one way or another, you can cause a mob or boss to attack you and not someone else, that's not "tanking" per definition.

Because the only alternative is a complete random chaos.


Exactly. And I seriously wonder if that's really supposed to be the ultimate game experience.

TBH i hate kitting everything on my very tanky guardian.

#424 Arquenya

Arquenya

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1204 posts
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Guild Tag:[DVDF]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 January 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

So a perma sin tanking, while MoP necro and 100b war/VoS derv spiked, and a UA monk heals, isn't exactly what tank & spank is all about?
Not sure what it was originally about - but it definitely looks like it.

The question is, of course, what would be ideal. Personally I'd like something more realistic. Not trash mobs that can run straight thorugh you and run twice as fast as you can, nor silly carpets of red circles.

In reality, you'd usually want to attack that what's closest to you, or the one doing the most damage, it would also be depending on the intelligence of the mobs. Humanoids would be more prone to work together and attack the player with the highest DPS, ogres would be attacking the closest or loudest or most brightly coloured one or whatever in a random, frenzied fashion.

Edited by Arquenya, 11 January 2013 - 02:02 PM.


#425 Blixcoe

Blixcoe

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 924 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 30 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

They should at least start by reducing CDs of the elites and utility skills.
And I'd love to see traits affecting my skills.
For example, Fireball becomes blue and has chill condition.
Or Guardian GS skills become long ranged, something like that. Not just +5% attack.
If they can't add new skills, at least do that.

You know what? That is a genius idea. Even if the traits only changed appearance of the skills (though that would be a bit sad) I would still love to have the idea of yours in the game!

#426 Age

Age

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 201 posts

Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:10 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 11 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

GW2, the game where Kiting all day/night beated any role/rule to survive
You don't need to kite in this game unlike GW which was needed.

#427 Btk881

Btk881

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:50 AM

In response to OP:

I personally like the Trinity system in MMORPGs, but I kinda get what Anet is trying to achieve when removing it completely. I for one prefer my role in the team properly defined though.

I played RIFT for a while and thoroughly enjoyed their Role system whereby I can save different specs for different roles, depending on whether I'm soloing or instancing.

Cheers! :)
BtK

#428 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostAge, on 17 January 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

You don't need to kite in this game unlike GW which was needed.

Not sure if trolling or... ??

#429 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

Just to add a question to this topic:

Speaking about the PVE SIDE of Guild Wars 2 i see everyday more often than yesterday that ppl are basically looking for speed runs/clears and therefore, they try to optimize the group...

Fine with that, it was about time that, after 6 months or so...
Problem is that 99% of the speedclear groups are looking for: Warrior, Guardian Mesmer

AND specifically only certain "builds/gears" are allowed (full dps/berserk)

So the question is: we dont have the Holy Trinity indeed we have a new trinity (which it's lead by game updates) and ppl starting to get excluded from best performing parties if they do not bring a certain class specced in a certain way...

Fail @ removing the bad part of the trinity is rising or not?
We renounced to roles, specific skills but we are going to face the problem anyway?

Share ur thoughts about this :)

PS: sorry for bad english ^_^

Edited by Fenice_86, 28 January 2013 - 11:44 AM.


#430 Bryant Again

Bryant Again

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 895 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Profession:Warrior

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:41 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 28 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Just to add a question to this topic:

Speaking about the PVE SIDE of Guild Wars 2 i see everyday more often than yesterday that ppl are basically looking for speed runs/clears and therefore, they try to optimize the group...

Fine with that, it was about time that, after 6 months or so...
Problem is that 99% of the speedclear groups are looking for: Warrior, Guardian Mesmer

AND specifically only certain "builds/gears" are allowed (full dps/berserk)

So the question is: we dont have the Holy Trinity indeed we have a new trinity (which it's lead by game updates) and ppl starting to get excluded from best performing parties if they do not bring a certain class specced in a certain way...

Fail @ removing the bad part of the trinity is rising or not?
We renounced to roles, specific skills but we are going to face the problem anyway?

Share ur thoughts about this :)

PS: sorry for bad english ^_^

Well, that's the other problem ANet's had some issues with in the past: Balance :P

And yeah, if that's the case that's kind of lame, and I hope they start fixing things up.

#431 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

Basically before we had "2" problems: specific roles + OP builds/classes

Now we just have: OP builds/classes

In my opinion the 2nd problem was/is the most important one and the harder to solve because it "evolves"

By "evolve" i mean that it's subject to skill updates:
today we have this trinity but who knows when and where the next big buff will go and which will be the new best setup to speedclear contents?

#432 beadnbutter32

beadnbutter32

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 618 posts
  • Location:Highway 61 Central US
  • Server:Henge of Denravi

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:06 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 28 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Problem is that 99% of the speedclear groups are looking for: Warrior, Guardian Mesmer

AND specifically only certain "builds/gears" are allowed (full dps/berserk)

So the question is: we dont have the Holy Trinity indeed we have a new trinity (which it's lead by game updates) and ppl starting to get excluded from best performing parties if they do not bring a certain class specced in a certain way...



The trinity is dead, long live the trinity!

You hit that nail squarely on the head.

The fact that the berzerk dps build mono-culture has arisen shows how badly executed Anet's attempt to do away with the trinity is.

The fact that only 3 classes can be successfully built that way shows how ineffective and poorly designed the other classes are.

The fact that the new trinity are essentially 3 solo players DPS-ing together shows how in-effective the ballyhooed cross class combos are.

The warrior toughs through the damage, the guardian blocks it, and the mesmer's illusions divert it.

Dungeons are set up as survive this damage gauntlet while max DPSing.  The other classes simply can't survive that gauntlet as well.

Knowing Anet, if they attempt to fix this, they will nerf the new trinity classes, when they should be buffing up the other classes defensive skills (longer duration, shorter cool downs) and buffing up combos, especially defensive ones.

But I doubt Anet will make any significant changes since they see all of this through the restrictive blinders of PVP 'balance', something most PVE players don't care one wit about.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 28 January 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#433 Lunacy Polish

Lunacy Polish

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 455 posts

Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 17 January 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:



Not sure if trolling or... ??

It depends on what out consider PvE to be.  In general overworld PvEasy I hardly dodge at all when I feel lazy.  Not necessary.  Just tag each mob once and the start bursting.

In a dungeon instance or something I set that dodge key on fire.

#434 Eliirae

Eliirae

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 232 posts

Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:07 PM

If you think of kiting in the traditional sense, then only the staff/scepter users actually kite things.  Anything that requires melee range or to be near melee doesn't kite at all.  A D/D elementalist isn't "kiting" an enemy when they dodge around and zip all over the place with all their attunment swapping, for example.

But if you're looking to be absolutely right no questions asked, then your definition of kiting shoiuld be "making the enemy move" which means that yes, everyone kites because everyone dodges, forcing the enemies to move.  Of course, that's kind of ridiculous.

Edited by Eliirae, 29 January 2013 - 06:08 PM.


#435 Stigma

Stigma

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 217 posts
  • Guild Tag:[TCG]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

The removal of the Trinity arose also majorly due to the dodge mechanic in the game. Dodge what you can and reflect what you cannot. If there was a solid healer and a tank in the game and dodge... theres just no challenge anymore.

Edited by Stigma, 29 January 2013 - 07:53 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users