raspberry jam, on 27 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:
The reason for saying something does not have to be the same thing that you are actually saying. What people are actually saying is that ANet lied about specific things. Thus, your statement about that how fun or good games are is subjective, is beside the point.
If you want to analyze peoples' reasons for things: Personally, I think that people thought that GW2 was bad all along, not just for the things that ANet lied about. But they have already said that they liked the game, so they can't just say that it was bad from the start. That is why, now when they have a reason for complaint, they do it to such an extent (but, very commonly, while pointing out how much they loved the game up until Nov 15). Others, of course (like me), saw instantly that ANet had lied all along, but had nothing to actually pin them on.
None of that does in any way whatsoever change the fact that what people say is "ANet lied because they said things that were not true". A completely objective statement.
Dyes is vital to the issue; what they told us that they were doing was a game that put cosmetics as the highest reward. Many GW2 players have stated that they play to have good looking characters. Yes it's true, no matter how weird the two of us think such a goal is, it is the goal for many players.
As for gear treadmill, I gave you proof. They added another tier of gear with objectively higher stats. You can of course claim that ascended gear doesn't have higher stats than exotics, but you'd be, you know, wrong. Objectively wrong. Nothing else you say about it matters; you're like a person pointing at the sky and claiming that it's not made of air.
Throwaway items is a lie, yes. Or rather, it's a fact; the statement that they would not exist is a lie. It doesn't matter whether this is due to bad implementation or not, and in fact, it doesn't - if it was a mistake, it would have to be due to bad design. However, it would be such bad design that it is impossible to even conceive of the fact that experienced MMO designers would not see this fifty billion miles away. And that is what makes it a lie, because they could not possibly have *ed it up that badly. It is literally impossible because there is no way that the crafting system that they designed would always (or even in most cases) yield relevant items.
Since they could not have *ed it up that badly, it would have to be intentional.
No, people trusting ANet is not the peoples' fault. If you pay someone to paint your house, and they say that they'll paint it red, you will trust that they paint it red. You have no obligation to make sure that they actually use red paint, and no contract except the implicit one raised in the purchase itself is even needed: if their marketing says "we paint houses red and definitely not yellow", and you pay them to paint your house and then it turns out to be painted yellow, it's their fault, not yours. That is what false marketing law is all about. Objective statements that were lies. The reason why people use terms like "thrill ride" and "action packed" in marketing is that they are subjective. But ANet made objective statements that turned out to be lies.
It's not about fun or not (fun is very subjective). Screw fun. Fun doesn't matter in the context of lying and benefit. Simply put the people complaining that Anet lied are people dissatisfied with what is being lied about. You can comb the forums if you want, but that's a fact. The posts about the "lies" are from disatisfied customers. Why are they disatsfied? Because the lie reflects something they do not like. If they find it fun or not is entirely besides the point. They do not like it. If they liked it, nothing to complain about or point out unless they want to be a douche.
And those people that "loved the game up to 15th" that complain that the potential for new gear (which is not fully attainable yet) is ruining their experience is bullshit. I can tell you "rain is bright orange and made of candy" and doesnt impact the reality that rain is not , in fact, made of candy. The new gear coming doesnt directly impact their game - YET. 2 rings and a back item does not a game break. When full ascended is here and more is coming, then people have a right to complain that the lie ruined their game. Bioware was bought by EA... Didn't ruin my already existing games. Cause and effect, not lie and OMG STUFF I ENJOYED 5 MINUTES AGO IS ASH IN MY MOUTH. Please get real about that.
Dye is a vital issue - to some people. Don't presume to think it's a top issue for all, or a deal breaker or there would be no population because of that and a post on the forums 120k views long and 10k posts. You can't know this for sure. My perspective is, i dont care. Lie or not. It's dye. Did they lie? Would seem like it, without changing their old blog post or updating it with a new "hey, sorry, this didnt work due to technical reasons, ecnomical reasons, etc.".
And you still have not given proof of a treadmill.
You have given proof they added new gear. Anyone who can read knows this. But we don't know it will be a treadmill. There is absolutely no similarity between the implementation and requirements of ascended gear and the structure of WoW, EQ, and other similar games where you hop from gear set to gear set +1, gear set +2, gear set +3 to tackle new content. For now we have 1 new gear set, of 3 pieces, with plan to be all pieces. But still no proof you will have to treadmill it and continually update to new and better gear. By your logic, exotic level is a treadmill (which it is) but lets not complain about that right?
And it's still not a lie about throwaway items. Throwaway items are items that no one can use that have no use in the game at all. These items are just not as useful, that doesnt make them the same as a classic throwaway item that literally has no available use in game other than making you spend time and money. Additionally, you are imaging that the GW2 team is a very experienced team. I don't know all of their backgrounds personally, but from the ones I saw, they worked on very few MMOs (GW1, DAoC) and both were very different beasts with very diffierent principles. If they are so experience and couldnt see this from billions of miles away in addition to all the other crap in the game, it's obvious they are either a) not very experienced or
not very good. So mentioning this is pointless. Fact is, they tried with crafting items, introduced too many that doesnt match the model of the game and many end up being "thrown away". But it's hardly a lie. Gonna also think you have no experience with a crafting system besides GW2, GW1 and maybe WoW? Every tried FFXI crafting? EQ1 crafting? EQ2 crafting? UO crafting? AC crafting? Shadow Bane? Talk about throw away crafting, go there. This is one of the most sound crafting systems of the last decade.
Your last statement is entirely crap. You are still touting trust and believing in statements. What world do you actually live in where trusting people is a good idea? But as to Anet, we are trust Anet to build a world, a world of their design (not ours) with their concepts. If they make a statement that A) is / will be or
is / will be, you take it with a grain of salt. You don't put your whole faith in them that they will build your dream house. You pay them thinking you will get a red house, not you will get an eternally red house that never chips, rusts or falls down or may explode due to other workings. if they promise red and then find out, red paint cant be applied to the type of wall your house has. Well you get a yellow house and live with it. But besides the point: It's not a real house and is subject to change to reflect the reality of the situation. Economical, technical, whatever.
Trusting is entirely the peoples fault as trust is a 1 sided deal. You have to earn trust, is true but it only takes 1 person to apply the trust. You cannot fault the party who is trusted for breaking your trust. Misplaced trust is nothing but your own fault.
As another gaming example for trust, probably the prime example: The peoples fault who bought any Lionhead studios game believing all the bullshit hype about it and how revolutionary this or that feature is, that are never in any of the games or are in but totally not what expected. Those games sold millions too without every customer hounding for blood and demanding refunds because their tree didnt grow as advertised or their decisions didnt carry the weight they thought. You make your choice in the next purchase and learn from your mistake. But it's your mistake not anyone elses.
And not being a lawyer, I wont discuss false marketing law (which is probably different in US, Canada, EU, China, etc.) but I would feel that going back on your manifesto or a blog about techincal features, or features you will like to have in your game, or features which are in at the time (blog months before retail) falls less under false marketing than directly marketing the game claiming "this great feature is in the game" then buying the game and the feature isnt there (looking at you lionhead).
Am done with this thread unless it goes back on topic. if you feel the need to discuss these points more you can privat message me or find me in game.