75 replies to this topic

[deitiesforce]

Goldenrice, on 26 November 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

im not comparing my experience to anyone elses.  That is the state of the game for me.  I want know where the game is at for other players.  Thats nice that you care about my 1k+ hours, but feel free to post your own experience and current feelings about the game.

It's not that there isn't enough content after 80, it's that there isn't enough quality content.  This is why there are a lot of players running fractals and not filling up PvE zones like cursed shore or malchors, etc.

Fractals is the most beneficial place to farm in terms of endgame, whether it be for mats, drops, etc.

I hit this wall about 2 months ago where it really came down to finding the most beneficial way to farm karma and gold.  Although there aren't many players with 1k+ hours, you can go around and see this is the mindset of a large chunk of "life after 80" players.



As for the ascended rings in fractals.....

You don't need to farm endlessly to get them.  You can just get to lvl 10+ and 20+ and do those 2 daily chests once a day until they drop for you. Getting to 30+ with 5 agony resistance isn't too difficult as the only agony boss you can't avoid is jade maw

Some of my biggest problems with GW2 is how they're dealing with the grind for ectos, t6 mats, and having gold-oriented grinds altogether.

Obviously they don't want you to achieve the best infusion and ascended upgrades 1-2 weeks after the release of ascended gear, but 500e, and hundreds of t6 mats just for some minor upgrades is a lot for what its worth.  Especially since thats the only way to upgrade.  Thats a lot of gold and farm, even for me. I don't expect to see many fully upgraded pink backpieces from many others for a while.  I just feel like it was unnecessary for them to add this additional layer of grind and gold sink just to keep people playing, especially when the time investment doesn't come anywhere close to the rewards worth.

tl;dr: am surprised more people aren't QQing about the extra grind needed to upgrade ascended pieces and how anet is adjusting the grind in this game

i kinda understand what you are saying. It just kinda hit me when you said "stop QQing about the pink rings." I think sometimes people miss the point why people are so mad about ascended armor. Tbh now i just learn to not even care about the ascended items. People are mad because anet changed direction of the game and it is completely opposite of what they said at first. Is it a bad direction? I can't comment on that. But there's no denial that it is completely different than before and that's why people are so mad about the ascended items. You also have to understand the people don't play as much as you do (it is completely fine on your part because you can spend your time however you want), it is way harder for them to get certain items. Back on topic, this game is still okay fun for me since now i'm leveling a new character but i went from like 3 hours a day to like 6 hours a week. The lack of PVP mode is what turning me off. I feel like there are only so many options in the game: wvw, spvp, dungeon... (i'm not the type that grinds for lengendary items). I hope they have more varieties of PVP modes like GW1 (gvg, ab, fa, jq, ha, ra, ta...)

[Stellarthief]

Goldenrice, on 26 November 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

The problem isnt that TP is an amazing and easy way to make money.

The problem is that TP is the ONLY amazing and easy way to make money.

People who have money like me or even more money aren't going to care otherwise.  We'll just keep making money this way, but this isn't good for the game down the road if TP is the only way to make "GOOD" money.

I miss running through zones in GW1, doing chest runs, farming icy dragon swords, and mob specific greens to sell.  Can't do that in GW2.  Can only sit at an NPC to make that kind of money /:


EDIT: and by TP being the only way to make money, I mean you can't go to some zone and farm and expect amazing loot to sell on TP.  You can't farm dungeons for any items that you can sell for XX amount of gold.

It's super rare to even get any items that sell for XX amount of gold. You are lucky in GW2 to get items that sell for XX silver.  Of which you get dozens by doing fractals (and I assume as time goes on also older dungeons) + decent coinage also.

Only place I ever got anything that sold for actual gold pieces was either self crafted or from the one time event chest.

The problem is inherant to their system. They are trying to reduce farming for goldlolz and making it harder as time goes on, but the TP or a barter system isnt affected by that.

Was the same in many other games... But then again without a good TP these days, even if you found items that sold for lolzgold you wouldnt get that gold as easy without a TP.. most people CBA to sit and barter these days.

[evilbob]

Goldenrice, on 26 November 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

EDIT: and by TP being the only way to make money, I mean you can't go to some zone and farm and expect amazing loot to sell on TP.  You can't farm dungeons for any items that you can sell for XX amount of gold.

I am honestly really torn about the price of T6 mats.  On one hand, it sucks that it's such a grind for so little improvement - like you said.  On the other hand, farming T6 mats would be a great way to solve the problem you mention above:  that other players could actually make some money without just TP PvP.

Of course, if a casual player could make money that way then a hardcore player could still make more...  Maybe that doesn't solve anything.

[Goldenrice]

evilbob, on 26 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

I am honestly really torn about the price of T6 mats.  On one hand, it sucks that it's such a grind for so little improvement - like you said.  On the other hand, farming T6 mats would be a great way to solve the problem you mention above:  that other players could actually make some money without just TP PvP.

Of course, if a casual player could make money that way then a hardcore player could still make more...  Maybe that doesn't solve anything.

Anet needs so stick content in zones that will keep casual players in those zones.  Make this content lucrative for casual players and all.  That way they can enjoy staying in zones while getting loot to sell to hardcore players, etc, etc....



To me, this is a casuals game that doesn't really appeal to as many casual players as it should.  Anet needs to help casual players, which in turn will help hardcore players like myself.

Edited by Goldenrice, 26 November 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Stellarthief, on 26 November 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Firstly, this exacty what people are saying! If they lied and its better, what the hell are people complaining for? You complain because you get a better product than you thought even if it isn't in line with what you think they said? Thats stupid. People are complaining because they felt lied to and the product isnt as good as they wanted.  If the new features were what they wanted, wtf do they make a stink for?


Dyes are a touchy point. Original blog post said it would be unlocked for account, then they posted dyes were account bound and now it's neither of those things.

But this whole ...No gear treadmill, this is still spouted in every other thread, that they lied about this. No one has yet linked me to a direct post saying "EXOTIC IS THE LAST TIER OF GEAR FOREVER".  I never read anything about this before and no one has linked me to it yet.

And crafting throwaway items?  It's also being looked at by Anet and is hardly a lie.  It's obvious that many of the crafted items are not as desirable as they thought they would be.  But as you craft things that can always be used (even pots, sharpening stones, etc. I would call useful).  They just arent as useful as people would like them to be and arent being bought up on TP as expected.

People seem to expect Anet to be God and the game as it was before retail is law, not subject to change or tweaks even if it "appears" to go against their Manifesto.

Honestly, have a drink, enjoy the game or don't, but seriously, lol.

No, they are not saying that. I agree that they are thinking that GW2 is bad. And they are saying that ANet lied. But they are not saying that "ANet said it would be good and it's not so they lied". They are saying that ANet made specific statements which are not true, and therefore, they lied. The fact that they lied and that people think that the game is bad are two different things.

Dyes are not a "touchy point", it's a lie.

No gear treadmill is a lie too. They never said that exotics would be the last tier, but they did add ascended gear. Adding objectively higher stats for gear after the fact is creating a gear treadmill.

Throwaway items - another lie. As you say, they are "not as useful" as implied - thus, a lie, as the statement was that they would be useful.

Of course the game is subject to tweaks even if it goes against the manifesto. They promised things and people trusted in that they would come through on their promises. They didn't. That they could ignore what they promised is entirely beside the point.

ANet can do whatever they want with their game, but if they ask people to trust them again, I think that many will turn a cold shoulder.

[Stellarthief]

raspberry jam, on 27 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

No, they are not saying that. I agree that they are thinking that GW2 is bad. And they are saying that ANet lied. But they are not saying that "ANet said it would be good and it's not so they lied". They are saying that ANet made specific statements which are not true, and therefore, they lied. The fact that they lied and that people think that the game is bad are two different things.

Dyes are not a "touchy point", it's a lie.

No gear treadmill is a lie too. They never said that exotics would be the last tier, but they did add ascended gear. Adding objectively higher stats for gear after the fact is creating a gear treadmill.

Throwaway items - another lie. As you say, they are "not as useful" as implied - thus, a lie, as the statement was that they would be useful.

Of course the game is subject to tweaks even if it goes against the manifesto. They promised things and people trusted in that they would come through on their promises. They didn't. That they could ignore what they promised is entirely beside the point.

ANet can do whatever they want with their game, but if they ask people to trust them again, I think that many will turn a cold shoulder.

The only reason to point out a lie is either because a) it brings you a benefit or you are vindicitive.

If they lie and even if you catch it, it still benefits you, you dont mention it unless you prefer not to have an added bonus (so called straight arrows).  Straight out people are saying gear treadmill bad, this bad, this bad all lies lies all bad.  Not, oh you lied to us, but it's ok because its super great anyway.  VERY FEW posts actually say that.  Most are "you lied to us, you sold us crap while promising gold", etc.  The lie is only bad because people feel their product is inferior and by calling anet on it are pointing it out.  WE DONT LIKE IT.

Dyes, I never checked in BW1 or before if they were account bound as they stated, didnt really care. it's frikking dyes. There are hundreds, they cost next to nothing, drop rate is unchanged for me despite multiple posts from people about it.  Honestly, it's a dye... They didnt lure you in and then molest you. I have seen less hubub about such real life cases of molestation than what people do in this game for a frigging dye.

And no gear treadmill, everyone keeps coming back to this with no proof.  Without the need to continually upgrade your gear every x days, weeks, months and that your old gear becomes out dated and means you cannot do any content with it you dont have a gear treadmill!  Just because they introduce a new gear set, which may or may not require a lot of "grinding" to get (it costs a lot of ectos right now, we know) it's hardly a treadmill.  DAoC introduced (with first expansion) new gear that required rank 10+ to use because of DPS cap, but getting it was hardly a treadmill.  You also had layers of gear there and no treadmill.  Think before you speak, a treadmill contiually goes around and around until you get off. Is this the case with the new gear?  So far, no. Suddenly my exotics arent worth shit, they are still enough to get you to fractals x, to keep you in WvW (you can WvW in frigging blues man), and the normal PvE content is usually run by most people in MF gear where honestly, the difference between 150% and 180% can be non existant as it wont bump you up 10 tables, and it's a luck roll anyway.
So I fail to see the fact in this gear treadmill. So far it's all conjecture that every x months we will need to keep updating our gear, when they have also now in AMA specifically stated Ascended gear will be rolled out through all of next year. there is more treadmill in the current system of blue, green, yellow, orange than is added with an additional tier level...

Throw away items is also not a lie. It's a poor implementation. They poorly thought out what the community would most need when levelling and the availability of other items.  They didnt lie to anyone.  They didnt go back on their ideas and have you craft shit that literally no one can use (other games have had you craft items that have literally no use to get levels).  You just craft shit that isnt useful because of the way the game turned out, the way people prefer stats (who needs clerics stuff while levelling?) and the availability of gear from tasks for karma or the drop rate on gear.

And people trusting anet is the peoples fault.  Trusting someone to make a product or do something as advertised is poor judgement.  You don't ask someone to paint your house, remodel it after a specific fashion and cost and not check wtf they are doing or make a contract first because you trust their judgement or their quality of character.  Just like you dont blindly buy other products like a TV (go to the store, close your eyes, point and buy that tv?). You do research, check it out, try it out in the store and listen to other people. You dont blindly trust their product description or God to make sure your TV purchase was right.  Not really an anology to a game, but it's a trust issue not an anology issue.  You only trust up to a point.  Putting your faith into something and then complaining because its not what they said it would be or expected is no ones fault but your own.

Next time people should go at a game objectively and not with open arms, tears in their eyes from the joys of trust.

Lets all demand a refund for all those games that advertise as "action packed" a "thrill ride" on the cover and you find boring because they arent as action packed or thrilling as you expect.  Trust bah, grow up.

[escada_assassin]

Offtopic : "Suddenly my exotics arent worth shit, they are still enough to get you to fractals x" - I did FotM up to level 10 without ANY exotics. All armor pieces are rare and trinkets are all green. Worked fine for me, as long as I dodge or play a caster as a...caster and not a warrior. XD
I hate the Ascended gear because it's taking away a pretty big part of the population on my world to just run FotM over and over again. Most of the players are doing FotM and it's harder and harder to get parties for any other dungeon outside FotM. Thank God for a guild. But that's not good, is it? And I don't get this Ascended crap. It is a lot of grind, it involves a lot of grind and all of that for what? Makes you kill a certain mob 0.01 seconds faster than me? Infusion is a different story, but I don't feel obligated to do anything more than level 10 in FotM. That's more than enough for me. Good drops anyways and it's fun until that level. But I won't be going for any of this ascended / infusion crap. I can still play through the game, I can still kill mobs like they're 79 levels lower than me and so on. So GL to all that need that carrot to keep playing.

[Stellarthief]

escada_assassin, on 27 November 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Offtopic : "Suddenly my exotics arent worth shit, they are still enough to get you to fractals x" - I did FotM up to level 10 without ANY exotics. All armor pieces are rare and trinkets are all green. Worked fine for me, as long as I dodge or play a caster as a...caster and not a warrior. XD
I hate the Ascended gear because it's taking away a pretty big part of the population on my world to just run FotM over and over again. Most of the players are doing FotM and it's harder and harder to get parties for any other dungeon outside FotM. Thank God for a guild. But that's not good, is it? And I don't get this Ascended crap. It is a lot of grind, it involves a lot of grind and all of that for what? Makes you kill a certain mob 0.01 seconds faster than me? Infusion is a different story, but I don't feel obligated to do anything more than level 10 in FotM. That's more than enough for me. Good drops anyways and it's fun until that level. But I won't be going for any of this ascended / infusion crap. I can still play through the game, I can still kill mobs like they're 79 levels lower than me and so on. So GL to all that need that carrot to keep playing.

I feel your complaint, but honestly for us its because fractals are so much more fun and better than the classic dungeons.

No one wants to run them when we can have more fun in fractals...

[raspberry jam]

Stellarthief, on 27 November 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

The only reason to point out a lie is either because a) it brings you a benefit or you are vindicitive.

If they lie and even if you catch it, it still benefits you, you dont mention it unless you prefer not to have an added bonus (so called straight arrows).  Straight out people are saying gear treadmill bad, this bad, this bad all lies lies all bad.  Not, oh you lied to us, but it's ok because its super great anyway.  VERY FEW posts actually say that.  Most are "you lied to us, you sold us crap while promising gold", etc.  The lie is only bad because people feel their product is inferior and by calling anet on it are pointing it out.  WE DONT LIKE IT.

Dyes, I never checked in BW1 or before if they were account bound as they stated, didnt really care. it's frikking dyes. There are hundreds, they cost next to nothing, drop rate is unchanged for me despite multiple posts from people about it.  Honestly, it's a dye... They didnt lure you in and then molest you. I have seen less hubub about such real life cases of molestation than what people do in this game for a frigging dye.

And no gear treadmill, everyone keeps coming back to this with no proof.  Without the need to continually upgrade your gear every x days, weeks, months and that your old gear becomes out dated and means you cannot do any content with it you dont have a gear treadmill!  Just because they introduce a new gear set, which may or may not require a lot of "grinding" to get (it costs a lot of ectos right now, we know) it's hardly a treadmill.  DAoC introduced (with first expansion) new gear that required rank 10+ to use because of DPS cap, but getting it was hardly a treadmill.  You also had layers of gear there and no treadmill.  Think before you speak, a treadmill contiually goes around and around until you get off. Is this the case with the new gear?  So far, no. Suddenly my exotics arent worth shit, they are still enough to get you to fractals x, to keep you in WvW (you can WvW in frigging blues man), and the normal PvE content is usually run by most people in MF gear where honestly, the difference between 150% and 180% can be non existant as it wont bump you up 10 tables, and it's a luck roll anyway.
So I fail to see the fact in this gear treadmill. So far it's all conjecture that every x months we will need to keep updating our gear, when they have also now in AMA specifically stated Ascended gear will be rolled out through all of next year. there is more treadmill in the current system of blue, green, yellow, orange than is added with an additional tier level...

Throw away items is also not a lie. It's a poor implementation. They poorly thought out what the community would most need when levelling and the availability of other items.  They didnt lie to anyone.  They didnt go back on their ideas and have you craft shit that literally no one can use (other games have had you craft items that have literally no use to get levels).  You just craft shit that isnt useful because of the way the game turned out, the way people prefer stats (who needs clerics stuff while levelling?) and the availability of gear from tasks for karma or the drop rate on gear.

And people trusting anet is the peoples fault.  Trusting someone to make a product or do something as advertised is poor judgement.  You don't ask someone to paint your house, remodel it after a specific fashion and cost and not check wtf they are doing or make a contract first because you trust their judgement or their quality of character.  Just like you dont blindly buy other products like a TV (go to the store, close your eyes, point and buy that tv?). You do research, check it out, try it out in the store and listen to other people. You dont blindly trust their product description or God to make sure your TV purchase was right.  Not really an anology to a game, but it's a trust issue not an anology issue.  You only trust up to a point.  Putting your faith into something and then complaining because its not what they said it would be or expected is no ones fault but your own.

Next time people should go at a game objectively and not with open arms, tears in their eyes from the joys of trust.

Lets all demand a refund for all those games that advertise as "action packed" a "thrill ride" on the cover and you find boring because they arent as action packed or thrilling as you expect.  Trust bah, grow up.

The reason for saying something does not have to be the same thing that you are actually saying. What people are actually saying is that ANet lied about specific things. Thus, your statement about that how fun or good games are is subjective, is beside the point.

If you want to analyze peoples' reasons for things: Personally, I think that people thought that GW2 was bad all along, not just for the things that ANet lied about. But they have already said that they liked the game, so they can't just say that it was bad from the start. That is why, now when they have a reason for complaint, they do it to such an extent (but, very commonly, while pointing out how much they loved the game up until Nov 15). Others, of course (like me), saw instantly that ANet had lied all along, but had nothing to actually pin them on.
None of that does in any way whatsoever change the fact that what people say is "ANet lied because they said things that were not true". A completely objective statement.

Dyes is vital to the issue; what they told us that they were doing was a game that put cosmetics as the highest reward. Many GW2 players have stated that they play to have good looking characters. Yes it's true, no matter how weird the two of us think such a goal is, it is the goal for many players.

As for gear treadmill, I gave you proof. They added another tier of gear with objectively higher stats. You can of course claim that ascended gear doesn't have higher stats than exotics, but you'd be, you know, wrong. Objectively wrong. Nothing else you say about it matters; you're like a person pointing at the sky and claiming that it's not made of air.

Throwaway items is a lie, yes. Or rather, it's a fact; the statement that they would not exist is a lie. It doesn't matter whether this is due to bad implementation or not, and in fact, it doesn't - if it was a mistake, it would have to be due to bad design. However, it would be such bad design that it is impossible to even conceive of the fact that experienced MMO designers would not see this fifty billion miles away. And that is what makes it a lie, because they could not possibly have *ed it up that badly. It is literally impossible because there is no way that the crafting system that they designed would always (or even in most cases) yield relevant items.
Since they could not have *ed it up that badly, it would have to be intentional.

No, people trusting ANet is not the peoples' fault. If you pay someone to paint your house, and they say that they'll paint it red, you will trust that they paint it red. You have no obligation to make sure that they actually use red paint, and no contract except the implicit one raised in the purchase itself is even needed: if their marketing says "we paint houses red and definitely not yellow", and you pay them to paint your house and then it turns out to be painted yellow, it's their fault, not yours. That is what false marketing law is all about. Objective statements that were lies. The reason why people use terms like "thrill ride" and "action packed" in marketing is that they are subjective. But ANet made objective statements that turned out to be lies.

[Stellarthief]

raspberry jam, on 27 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

The reason for saying something does not have to be the same thing that you are actually saying. What people are actually saying is that ANet lied about specific things. Thus, your statement about that how fun or good games are is subjective, is beside the point.

If you want to analyze peoples' reasons for things: Personally, I think that people thought that GW2 was bad all along, not just for the things that ANet lied about. But they have already said that they liked the game, so they can't just say that it was bad from the start. That is why, now when they have a reason for complaint, they do it to such an extent (but, very commonly, while pointing out how much they loved the game up until Nov 15). Others, of course (like me), saw instantly that ANet had lied all along, but had nothing to actually pin them on.
None of that does in any way whatsoever change the fact that what people say is "ANet lied because they said things that were not true". A completely objective statement.

Dyes is vital to the issue; what they told us that they were doing was a game that put cosmetics as the highest reward. Many GW2 players have stated that they play to have good looking characters. Yes it's true, no matter how weird the two of us think such a goal is, it is the goal for many players.

As for gear treadmill, I gave you proof. They added another tier of gear with objectively higher stats. You can of course claim that ascended gear doesn't have higher stats than exotics, but you'd be, you know, wrong. Objectively wrong. Nothing else you say about it matters; you're like a person pointing at the sky and claiming that it's not made of air.

Throwaway items is a lie, yes. Or rather, it's a fact; the statement that they would not exist is a lie. It doesn't matter whether this is due to bad implementation or not, and in fact, it doesn't - if it was a mistake, it would have to be due to bad design. However, it would be such bad design that it is impossible to even conceive of the fact that experienced MMO designers would not see this fifty billion miles away. And that is what makes it a lie, because they could not possibly have *ed it up that badly. It is literally impossible because there is no way that the crafting system that they designed would always (or even in most cases) yield relevant items.
Since they could not have *ed it up that badly, it would have to be intentional.

No, people trusting ANet is not the peoples' fault. If you pay someone to paint your house, and they say that they'll paint it red, you will trust that they paint it red. You have no obligation to make sure that they actually use red paint, and no contract except the implicit one raised in the purchase itself is even needed: if their marketing says "we paint houses red and definitely not yellow", and you pay them to paint your house and then it turns out to be painted yellow, it's their fault, not yours. That is what false marketing law is all about. Objective statements that were lies. The reason why people use terms like "thrill ride" and "action packed" in marketing is that they are subjective. But ANet made objective statements that turned out to be lies.

It's not about fun or not (fun is very subjective).  Screw fun.  Fun doesn't matter in the context of lying and benefit.  Simply put the people complaining that Anet lied are people dissatisfied with what is being lied about.  You can comb the forums if you want, but that's a fact.  The posts about the "lies" are from disatisfied customers. Why are they disatsfied? Because the lie reflects something they do not like. If they find it fun or not is entirely besides the point.  They do not like it.  If they liked it, nothing to complain about or point out unless they want to be a douche.

And those people that "loved the game up to 15th" that complain that the potential for new gear (which is not fully attainable yet) is ruining their experience is bullshit.  I can tell you "rain is bright orange and made of candy" and doesnt impact the reality that rain is not , in fact, made of candy.  The new gear coming doesnt directly impact their game - YET.  2 rings and a back item does not a game break.  When full ascended is here and more is coming, then people have a right to complain that the lie ruined their game. Bioware was bought by EA... Didn't ruin my already existing games. Cause and effect, not lie and OMG STUFF I ENJOYED 5 MINUTES AGO IS ASH IN MY MOUTH. Please get real about that.

Dye is a vital issue - to some people. Don't presume to think it's a top issue for all, or a deal breaker or there would be no population because of that and a post on the forums 120k views long and 10k posts. You can't know this for sure.  My perspective is, i dont care. Lie or not. It's dye.  Did they lie? Would seem like it, without changing their old blog post or updating it with a new "hey, sorry, this didnt work due to technical reasons, ecnomical reasons, etc.".  

And you still have not given proof of a treadmill. You have given proof they added new gear. Anyone who can read knows this.  But we don't know it will be a treadmill.  There is absolutely no similarity between the implementation and requirements of ascended gear and the structure of WoW, EQ, and other similar games where you hop from gear set to gear set +1, gear set +2, gear set +3 to tackle new content.  For now we have 1 new gear set, of 3 pieces, with plan to be all pieces.  But still no proof you will have to treadmill it and continually update to new and better gear.  By your logic, exotic level is a treadmill (which it is) but lets not complain about that right?

And it's still not a lie about throwaway items.  Throwaway items are items that no one can use that have no use in the game at all.  These items are just not as useful, that doesnt make them the same as a classic throwaway item that literally has no available use in game other than making you spend time and money.  Additionally, you are imaging that the GW2 team is a very experienced team.  I don't know all of their backgrounds personally, but from the ones I saw, they worked on very few MMOs (GW1, DAoC) and both were very different beasts with very diffierent principles.  If they are so experience and couldnt see this from billions of miles away in addition to all the other crap in the game, it's obvious they are either a) not very experienced or not very good. So mentioning this is pointless.  Fact is, they tried with crafting items, introduced too many that doesnt match the model of the game and many end up being "thrown away". But it's hardly a lie.  Gonna also think you have no experience with a crafting system besides GW2, GW1 and maybe WoW?  Every tried FFXI crafting? EQ1 crafting? EQ2 crafting? UO crafting? AC crafting? Shadow Bane? Talk about throw away crafting, go there. This is one of the most sound crafting systems of the last decade.

Your last statement is entirely crap. You are still touting trust and believing in statements.  What world do you actually live in where trusting people is a good idea? But as to Anet,  we are trust Anet to build a world, a world of their design (not ours) with their concepts.   If they make a statement that A) is / will be or is / will be, you take it with a grain of salt.  You don't put your whole faith in them that they will build your dream house.  You pay them thinking you will get a red house, not you will get an eternally red house that never chips, rusts or falls down or may explode due to other workings.  if they promise red and then find out, red paint cant be applied to the type of wall your house has. Well you get a yellow house and live with it.  But besides the point: It's not a real house and is subject to change to reflect the reality of the situation. Economical, technical, whatever.

Trusting is entirely the peoples fault as trust is a 1 sided deal.  You have to earn trust, is true but it only takes 1 person to apply the trust.  You cannot fault the party who is trusted for breaking your trust. Misplaced trust is nothing but your own fault.

As another gaming example for trust, probably the prime example: The peoples fault who bought any Lionhead studios game believing all the bullshit hype about it and how revolutionary this or that feature is, that are never in any of the games or are in but totally not what expected.  Those games sold millions too without every customer hounding for blood and demanding refunds because their tree didnt grow as advertised or their decisions didnt carry the weight they thought.  You make your choice in the next purchase and learn from your mistake. But it's your mistake not anyone elses.

And not being a lawyer, I wont discuss false marketing law (which is probably different in US, Canada, EU, China, etc.) but I would feel that going back on your manifesto or a blog about techincal features, or features you will like to have in your game, or features which are in at the time (blog months before retail) falls less under false marketing than directly marketing the game claiming "this great feature is in the game" then buying the game and the feature isnt there (looking at you lionhead).

Am done with this thread unless it goes back on topic. if you feel the need to discuss these points more you can privat message me or find me in game.

[raspberry jam]

Stellarthief, on 27 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

It's not about fun or not (fun is very subjective).  Screw fun.  Fun doesn't matter in the context of lying and benefit.  Simply put the people complaining that Anet lied are people dissatisfied with what is being lied about.  You can comb the forums if you want, but that's a fact.  The posts about the "lies" are from disatisfied customers. Why are they disatsfied? Because the lie reflects something they do not like. If they find it fun or not is entirely besides the point.  They do not like it.  If they liked it, nothing to complain about or point out unless they want to be a douche.

And those people that "loved the game up to 15th" that complain that the potential for new gear (which is not fully attainable yet) is ruining their experience is bullshit.  I can tell you "rain is bright orange and made of candy" and doesnt impact the reality that rain is not , in fact, made of candy.  The new gear coming doesnt directly impact their game - YET.  2 rings and a back item does not a game break.  When full ascended is here and more is coming, then people have a right to complain that the lie ruined their game. Bioware was bought by EA... Didn't ruin my already existing games. Cause and effect, not lie and OMG STUFF I ENJOYED 5 MINUTES AGO IS ASH IN MY MOUTH. Please get real about that.

Dye is a vital issue - to some people. Don't presume to think it's a top issue for all, or a deal breaker or there would be no population because of that and a post on the forums 120k views long and 10k posts. You can't know this for sure.  My perspective is, i dont care. Lie or not. It's dye.  Did they lie? Would seem like it, without changing their old blog post or updating it with a new "hey, sorry, this didnt work due to technical reasons, ecnomical reasons, etc.".  

And you still have not given proof of a treadmill. You have given proof they added new gear. Anyone who can read knows this.  But we don't know it will be a treadmill.  There is absolutely no similarity between the implementation and requirements of ascended gear and the structure of WoW, EQ, and other similar games where you hop from gear set to gear set +1, gear set +2, gear set +3 to tackle new content.  For now we have 1 new gear set, of 3 pieces, with plan to be all pieces.  But still no proof you will have to treadmill it and continually update to new and better gear.  By your logic, exotic level is a treadmill (which it is) but lets not complain about that right?

And it's still not a lie about throwaway items.  Throwaway items are items that no one can use that have no use in the game at all.  These items are just not as useful, that doesnt make them the same as a classic throwaway item that literally has no available use in game other than making you spend time and money.  Additionally, you are imaging that the GW2 team is a very experienced team.  I don't know all of their backgrounds personally, but from the ones I saw, they worked on very few MMOs (GW1, DAoC) and both were very different beasts with very diffierent principles.  If they are so experience and couldnt see this from billions of miles away in addition to all the other crap in the game, it's obvious they are either a) not very experienced or not very good. So mentioning this is pointless.  Fact is, they tried with crafting items, introduced too many that doesnt match the model of the game and many end up being "thrown away". But it's hardly a lie.  Gonna also think you have no experience with a crafting system besides GW2, GW1 and maybe WoW?  Every tried FFXI crafting? EQ1 crafting? EQ2 crafting? UO crafting? AC crafting? Shadow Bane? Talk about throw away crafting, go there. This is one of the most sound crafting systems of the last decade.

Your last statement is entirely crap. You are still touting trust and believing in statements.  What world do you actually live in where trusting people is a good idea? But as to Anet,  we are trust Anet to build a world, a world of their design (not ours) with their concepts.   If they make a statement that A) is / will be or is / will be, you take it with a grain of salt.  You don't put your whole faith in them that they will build your dream house.  You pay them thinking you will get a red house, not you will get an eternally red house that never chips, rusts or falls down or may explode due to other workings.  if they promise red and then find out, red paint cant be applied to the type of wall your house has. Well you get a yellow house and live with it.  But besides the point: It's not a real house and is subject to change to reflect the reality of the situation. Economical, technical, whatever.

Trusting is entirely the peoples fault as trust is a 1 sided deal.  You have to earn trust, is true but it only takes 1 person to apply the trust.  You cannot fault the party who is trusted for breaking your trust. Misplaced trust is nothing but your own fault.

As another gaming example for trust, probably the prime example: The peoples fault who bought any Lionhead studios game believing all the bullshit hype about it and how revolutionary this or that feature is, that are never in any of the games or are in but totally not what expected.  Those games sold millions too without every customer hounding for blood and demanding refunds because their tree didnt grow as advertised or their decisions didnt carry the weight they thought.  You make your choice in the next purchase and learn from your mistake. But it's your mistake not anyone elses.

And not being a lawyer, I wont discuss false marketing law (which is probably different in US, Canada, EU, China, etc.) but I would feel that going back on your manifesto or a blog about techincal features, or features you will like to have in your game, or features which are in at the time (blog months before retail) falls less under false marketing than directly marketing the game claiming "this great feature is in the game" then buying the game and the feature isnt there (looking at you lionhead).

Am done with this thread unless it goes back on topic. if you feel the need to discuss these points more you can privat message me or find me in game.

This is the topic. We will not "screw fun" because you introduced it by accusing people of making subjective statements. They are not subjective, they are not about fun, they are about objective statments that ANet made and that were lies.

The people complaining about the Nov 15 patch are people who have played MMOs before, and knows where this is heading. It's true that most of them are not affected by ascended items yet - although many of them are affected by the need to get ascended items before the remainder of the tier is introduced (forcing them to farm FotM).
You seem quite defensive of this point. Maybe you don't actually like GW2, and seek to defend it on these forums to convince yourself of something?

Dye is a lie, dye is a big deal to a sizable portion of the playerbase. Nowhere near the majority, I'd think, but still a large part. That doesn't really matter; what matters is that it is a lie.

I gave proof of a treadmill. They added another tier of gear. If that is not a treadmill, then no game at all have treadmills. Also yes, I don't like that exotics are significantly better than starter gear, though that doesn't make it a treadmill.

Yes, they lied about the throwaway items. Maybe you don't quite understand. It doesn't mean that no one have use of them, because even in WoW or the like, for almost every item ever crafted, someone would be able to find a use for it. It's still throwaway items, because translating the item into something useful (even if that just means selling it to another player) is more work than the benefit of said use would bring you. Taking that into account, crafting that item is a dead end and it is a throwaway item; it is literally more economical to sell it to the merchant (or even to delete it) than to use it or taking the time to sell it to another player.

Yes, the GW2 team is relatively experienced, including people who have worked on GW1, DAoC, WAR, WoW, etc. They designed the GW2 crafting system completely intentionally like this... Calling it the "most sound of the last decade" totally ignores crafting systems that actually does not produce throwaway items (unless you want them to), such as the one found in Minecraft.
Minecraft is not an MMO, but that doesn't mean that the crafting system could not be replicated in an MMO. Also, the GW1 "crafting" system (which involved asking NPCs to craft stuff for you) never forced throwaway items.

My last statement is crap? Where do I live where trusting is a good idea? Trusting someone to give you what they told they'd give you as part of a purchase is an absolute necessity no matter where you live. If you go buy a pack of milk, you trust that it contains milk, because it says "milk" on the box. You do not open it in the store. You pay and then you go home with your pack of milk. And if that pack turns out to contain pineapple juice when you get home, it's not your fault for "trusting" in the store, even though you actually did trust them to sell you milk. It is the store's fault, or the producer of the pack of milk, either of those two - but not yours, because when you go buy a box that says "milk", it's quite reasonable to trust in that it actually contains milk.

I don't see what you mean by your apparent hatred towards Lionhead, but that's beside the point and as weak as the rest of your arguments. Stop huffing and actually think things through before you post and you might accidentally start making sense.

Edited by raspberry jam, 27 November 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Jason Seven]

So, after the AMA and responses from MIke O'Brien and Chris Whiteside it's pretty clear to me that GW2 will never ever succeed to please any audience at all. This MMORPG tried to be different from the rest yet failed so hard it's not even funny. They sold it on the premise of not having a gear treadmill and only rewarding players on a cosmetic level, had they stuck to their guns there'd be no issue at all and players like myself wouldn't even be here today. Mind you that we only asked for more content and better gear, ArenaNet were the ones who agreed to introduce it. But it turns out this seems to have been their plan all along considering Mike O'Brien himself saying that GW1 was boring and stagnat due to a lack of vertical progression. I was always under the impression that this exact fact made GW1 unique and why it was so beloved by those who played it but I guess that's not the case in the eyes of its creator. What ArenaNet has created is a game that was promised to have no grind yet every single thing you'd want requires rather excessive grinding. This is not casual friendly at all, another thing they've told everyon this game would be. I'd go so far as to call GW2 a somewhat less grindy version of Aion. The stat increase of Ascended items and their very slow introduction over time doesn't make players like me want to play at all. The increase needs to be at least 20% to be considered worthwhile not to mention having to wait and wait for new parts to be released. Other games do vertical progression a hell of a lot better than GW2 ever will if they continue introducing it this way and I'm pretty sure they will. ArenaNet tried pleasing both audiences, the pro gear treadmill and anti gear treadmill crowds, but failed to even remotely satisfy either. What's left is a game full of broken promises, grinding, bugs and other unresolved issues along with a sorry excuse for a gear treadmill and a very lacking PVP system. None of which seems to get fixed any time soon. Well, at least it's got nice graphics and aesthetics.

Whiteside also said that they fully expected the backlash and negative feedback. Evil is the only word that can describe this kind of thinking, honestly. It's like adding salt to an open wound just to see the victim writhe in pain even more. How very insulting.

[Dasryn]

honestly, im playing the game right now, like right now because i have two monitors and i can type in the forums and still play simultaneously, and because i called out of work today because i was up half the night with an irritable bowel.. . . .

and the people in game right now are LOVING EVERYTHING.  i asked them what they thought about ascended gear and they said its fine, its not hard to get, they LOVE fractals, best dungeon ever.

these are people in game.  which count more than 90% of this forum.

so @Jason Seven. . ..  you have a really biased and opinionated view that i think you want to be true but its not.

[Jason Seven]

Rickter, on 27 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

honestly, im playing the game right now, like right now because i have two monitors and i can type in the forums and still play simultaneously, and because i called out of work today because i was up half the night with an irritable bowel.. . . .

and the people in game right now are LOVING EVERYTHING.  i asked them what they thought about ascended gear and they said its fine, its not hard to get, they LOVE fractals, best dungeon ever.

these are people in game.  which count more than 90% of this forum.

so @Jason Seven. . ..  you have a really biased and opinionated view that i think you want to be true but its not.

Kinda obvious that those still playing are satisfied with what they have. I mean why would they be playing if they didn't enjoy it? Throughout my time in GW2 I added every single player I came across to my friends list. I ended up with a load of them probably well over 400. Whenever I log on and I checked at different times obviously, it's always the same 13 or so people playing. None of our guild even plays this game anymore save for checking out new stuff. It's only a matter of time before the majority who is still playing either gets bored and demands more content or simply leaves. Active player count will always fluctuate. More players will be online when new content is introduced or when there's an event, that's only natural. It's also quite funny that people on various forums seem to matter extremely little towards those who are pleased with what they have.

[Dasryn]

Jason Seven, on 27 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Kinda obvious that those still playing are satisfied with what they have. I mean why would they be playing if they didn't enjoy it? Throughout my time in GW2 I added every single player I came across to my friends list. I ended up with a load of them probably well over 400. Whenever I log on and I checked at different times obviously, it's always the same 13 or so people playing. None of our guild even plays this game anymore save for checking out new stuff. It's only a matter of time before the majority who is still playing either gets bored and demands more content or simply leaves. Active player count will always fluctuate. More players will be online when new content is introduced or when there's an event, that's only natural. It's also quite funny that people on various forums seem to matter extremely little towards those who are pleased with what they have.

you do realize this is normal right?  it is normal for people to try a game, when they find out its not for them, they leave.

this is the normal evolution of this genre more than any others.

new release, servers swarmed, a few months out, population starts to normalize and then possible server consolidation, then its smooth sailing from there on out.

its perfectly normal.  and expected.

[Jason Seven]

Rickter, on 27 November 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

you do realize this is normal right?  it is normal for people to try a game, when they find out its not for them, they leave.

this is the normal evolution of this genre more than any others.

new release, servers swarmed, a few months out, population starts to normalize and then possible server consolidation, then its smooth sailing from there on out.

its perfectly normal.  and expected.

I'd have never guessed. Thanks a lot for letting me know. Sarcasm aside, not entirely sure how this changes anything at all with the previous mentioned things. Not entirely sure what you actually want. Maybe you don't really know yourself.