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The Real Reason Mesmers Seem Over powered

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#1 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:00 AM

Ok first off. I would like to say as my starting statement  that the real reason that Mesmers are winning most fights is because most people are not fighting them correctly. In fact the mesmer Profession is not over powered at all. You heard me right!!!! So in this part of my post you must be like " oh is he saying that I suck. Is he calling me a noob" and you want to stop reading and post a violent comment. First i would like to say that i am NOT calling you a noob or unskilled player, and that I  ask that you read this. ALL of this. So that you will take in all the facts, and the reasons I have come to my conclusion

Ok with that down allow me to explain why most people are not attacking mesmers correctly. Oh and I say most people as in 50 percent of the gamer population regardless of skill level or profession . Ok the way to correctly fight Mesmers is simple. You must learn how to tell the difference between Mesmers and there clones to the point where you will not waste skills(weapon,utility,elite,prof.machanic), and time on clones. Simple right? In fact 50 percent of the gamers have mastered this technique to the point where they will make only a couple of mistakes if not no mistakes at all. It's impossible to not make a mistake every once in a while (we are only human). But by mastering this it will reduce the amount of mistakes you will make.........hmmmm you must be like "oh everyone knows that, and who cares if you make a ton of mistakes. It does not matter much right?".WRONG!!!!!

Allow me to go over the importance of this technique. Ok.....imagine that you do not have this technique at all.  In Other words you do not know that the mesmer in front of you is actually a clone. Now in this situation you would most likely attack it correct? Ok let's say you just use your auto attack for this. Ok you killed the clone and you understand what you have done. But what have you lost? The auto attack is not much of a loss. That much is true. But what about the time you put in to attacking the clone. Is that important? In truth it is. You see by attacking the Mesmers clone you have wasted averagely 3 secs on it. Now if you want to find out how much that is worth. Subtract 3 seconds from every skill that the mesmer had on cool down. Though this does subtract 3 seconds on your cool downs as well. I know it's a weird philosophy. but true none the less. It's not much but it is an advantage to opponents that have a lot of skills on cool down. So it is best not to give the mesmer a chance to use a skill that he could not 3 seconds ago. which is when you should have attacked him. Know though that this is the best  possible scenario From here the scenarios get worse.

Because you will have most likely used a weapon, or utility skill. Then you will not only have wasted time. you would have wasted a weapon skill. Which is something that is now on cool down. You could have damaged the mesmer with that weapon skill. But instead it is wasted damage. In Other words consider that you are behind in the fight by the amount of damage that the weapon skill would have done. The damage that you have wasted.
If you have not mastered this technique as much as you can. you will make a lot more mistakes then if you had mastered it. And if you make the mistake of losing track of the mesmer and instead attack a clone you will have wasted time, you will have wasted weapon skills that could have been used to damage the mesmer and bring the fight closer to your favor, you will have wasted utility skills that could have been used to give you an advantage that would have brought the fight closer to your favor, you would have wasted elite skills that......oh I don't have to go over this one with you now do I.
But with all that possible loss. Is that really all of it. The answer.....NO! If you lose track of the mesmer. You are giving the mesmer the perfect advantage. You see in this Time of you ignorance of the mesmer. The mesmer will be constantly damaging you without worry of being damaged back. the mesmer will be able to moa morph you, And why? Because if your attention is on the clone and not the mesmer. Then you will not know that the mesmer is casting moa morph. And because you do not know that he is casting moa morph you will likely not be able to dodge or interrupt it. You will know its coming only when it hits. Which for those that do not know. is too late!!!. Really just by losing track of the mesmer. You cannot fight the mesmer. It is the ultimate defense and attack that both Mesmers and thieves share. The ability to be able to do whatever you want to a opponent with little retaliation. But only when your opponent does not know where you are

So do you see the importance of having this technique? The importance of knowing where your enemy is !

After reading that you must be like "oh Mesmers are so hard to beat without this. But this is hard to master right"?.....WRONG!!!. In fact I would say that 50 percent of the people have mastered this technique if not more. Why so little you may say. Well before I can go over that I have to go over who makes up the 50 percent(or less) of gamer that have not mastered this technique.

the answer to that question is simple. Everyone that has not mastered this technique .people just 1 minute of practice away from mastering the technique to players that are by definition a noob. Now before I get a whole bunch of crap. First let me say that NOT EVERYONE in the 50 percent that has not mastered this is a noob. There are always going to be noobs in a game. By definition they are gamers that have little skill, and know little and have no will to learn any more. Or have any interest to improve there skill. So seeing as there are a population of noobs. They would most likely will be in the 50 percent of gamers that have not mastered this technique. Agreed?...ok.
The other players that make up this group of gamers. Are people that do not consider this technique to be useful. And for that reason do not improve on it. Then there are players that are working on mastering it. But have not mastered it YET.

Ok....now lets go over why most people have not mastered it. The reason is that most people do not believe that the skill Is important. And for that reason do not improve on the skill of the technique they already have. Why would they think its not important you may ask? Well let's put you in there shoes to explain this one.
Lets say that you keep loosing to Mesmers more than any other class. It is not much more. But enough to annoy you to the point of curiosity. So you look up the Internet and you search "why are mesmer OP". What comes up? Well mostly threads about moa morph, time warp, portal. The most poweraful skills that the mesmer has available to them. But yet...........nothing.......absolutely nothing about the mental confusion that clones bring a player, and from there the consequence of not having a defense against it. There is nothing on it. So what the average player will conclude. Is that the mesmer is OP due to specific skills, and not that there playing technique is not as good as it could be when fighting a mesmer. This will of course lead to a lot of players that will not change there tactic when fighting Mesmers, and instead will simply wait until the mesmer is nerfed to oblivion.

BUT if this player were to become informed that this technique needs to be mastered in order to fight mesmers to the best of ones ability. then the player would realize that the real problem was instead his fighting technique and not the mesmer. So after that the player takes some time to master the technique to the best of the players ability. After the player has done this the results would be.......

The player no longer wastes a lot of time attacking clones. Which results with more pressure on the mesmer. The player does not waste a lot of weapon skills. Which results in a lot more damage to the mesmer. The player does not waste utility skills on clones. Which results with the player keeping a advantage over the mesmer. And obviously the player does not waste elite skills( seems silly but I have seen moa morph hit one of my clones once). But more importantly the ultimate shield and attack that the mesmer has will no longer work. The player will no longer be damaged without retaliation to the mesmer Because the players attention will always be on the real mesmer. When the mesmer is going to heal the player has the opportunity to interupt it. When the mesmer uses moa morph. the player will have the opportunity to dodge or interupt it.

Really the only reason that Mesmers are winning MOST fights is because almost 50 percent of there opponents have not mastered this technique. And as a results they have a huge advantage over other players regardless of profession. It could be 2 mesmer with equal skill. But really if one of them has not mastered this technique as much as the other. Then that mesmer will have a huge advantage!!!

So do you see why my statement is as it is? In all my experience playing every profession including mesmer. This is the only reason Mesmers are at the top. Really 50 percent of opponents as easy wins.....not that hard to figure out why they are at the top!

Edited by Adashio, 26 November 2012 - 11:07 AM.


#2 Sinnacle

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

Recognition of the real mesmer is what I got if nobody wants to read all of it.

#3 Sephorai

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:55 AM

Except this is wrong.  Yes you need to decipher which is a clone and which isn't, but in reality so much of fighting a Mesmer relies so damn heavily on their spec. Anyway I'm rambling, what I'm trying to say is if your fighting a phatasm Mesmer and you ignore his clones your just gonna get killed cus those phantasms will hit you with immunity. I'm blessed with the AoE of an Ele though so meh. If anyone from anothe thread is looking for info on how to kill a Mesmer specifically check the Elementalist threads there is a thread there with a wealth of info.

#4 Majigor

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

View PostSephorai, on 26 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Except this is wrong.  Yes you need to decipher which is a clone and which isn't, but in reality so much of fighting a Mesmer relies so damn heavily on their spec. Anyway I'm rambling, what I'm trying to say is if your fighting a phatasm Mesmer and you ignore his clones your just gonna get killed cus those phantasms will hit you with immunity. I'm blessed with the AoE of an Ele though so meh. If anyone from anothe thread is looking for info on how to kill a Mesmer specifically check the Elementalist threads there is a thread there with a wealth of info.

The OP just made possibly the longest with the shortest point I have ever read, and you think you're rambling after only 1 sentence? Trust me, you aren't!.

To the OP.... You spent all that time and effort repeating yourself, making up figures from the top of your head, just to tell us to master a technique, then didn't even tell us HOW to master it?

... WHY?

"piontles"

For anyone who hoped to gain anything from this thread, just go to this one instead: http://www.guildwars...ke-on-a-mesmer/

It basically says the same thing but is a better read, contains actual facts, AND gives advice.

#5 Venereus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

As said before, that's one unnecessary wall of text.

#6 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

View PostSephorai, on 26 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Except this is wrong.  Yes you need to decipher which is a clone and which isn't, but in reality so much of fighting a Mesmer relies so damn heavily on their spec. Anyway I'm rambling, what I'm trying to say is if your fighting a phatasm Mesmer and you ignore his clones your just gonna get killed cus those phantasms will hit you with immunity. I'm blessed with the AoE of an Ele though so meh. If anyone from anothe thread is looking for info on how to kill a Mesmer specifically check the Elementalist threads there is a thread there with a wealth of info.

Well I am wrong and right. I agree it relies on there spec. As in if the mesmer uses only phantasms. Then this would not work correct. BUT from my experience using a mesmer. If I have clones, and I get my opponent to lose track of me to the point where they think a clone is me then they will almost always waste a skill, and this happened a lot. Like 3 or more times a battle. I just keep thinking that if he did not waste those skilles on the clone, and instead used them on me. Then the battle would have gone in a different way. Really I believe that if you lose track of Mesmers. You are giving them a huge advantage. As in you will not be able to attack me if you do not know Where I am right?. It's like the perfect defense. But by perfect attack. Well think about it. If you do not know where I am....then that gives me the ability to attack you without the worry of you defending yourself from it. You won't dodge it because you don't even know its coming. Until its too late that is. Moa morph is my favorite example of this.

And after I realized this. I adapted my technique so I could easily find the mesmer. But more importantly I practiced to the point that I would no longer mistake clones for the mesmer, and because I no longer waste skills. I gotta say I have been winning a lot more battles against them. Not all of them. But just to the point were Mesmers are no harder to beat than any other profession. Using any profession. As for phantasm Mesmers. They really only have nothin keeping you from pin targeting the mesmer. So you should be doing a lot more damage to the mesmer. As for phantasms well.......I would say that a mesmer can only burst 2 phantasms at a time. 3 if they are using a utility and the 2 phantasms from there weapon skills. But most likely 2. So if you were to kill some of them. You could cripple the mesmer for a little while. Assuming they are only built for phantasms. Really aoe is kinda nice for that. Which is why else's are good when fighting that type of mesmer. But really most Mesmers use clones. And because the consequences are huge if you lose track of the mesmer. Mastering this technique is a must on order to fight toe to toe with a mesmer

Edited by Adashio, 26 November 2012 - 01:45 PM.


#7 Sephorai

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

I guess what I'm tryin to say is while the OP does have a point, you definitely have to learn how to tell a Mesmer from his illusions, you Definetly shouldn't completely ignore a mesmers clones straight on. Againts a phantasm Mesmer you should be actively striking down their phantasms while againts a Shatter Mesmer you should try using all your PBAoE or general AoE to destroy his clones (ofcourse don't just use these abilities to kill clones you want to try to hit the Mesmer & his clones)


To answer what the OP missed though: Easiest way of identifying the real Mesmer is looking for abilities. Who ever is using abilities is the real one. Another easy tell is if you see him strafing then congrats you've found the real one. This is due to how to the clone ai works. Ranged clones will stay in place unless you get out of their range while melee clones will never strife as their always running up to you trying to smack your sauce. One last easy tell is if you see a "clone" with an offhand  weapon (pistol, torch, etc) then congrats you've found the real Mesmer.

#8 Korra

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

wow i mean woa.

#9 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:00 PM

I simply want to get the point around.....which put simply. Is the true importance of being able to find the mesmer quickly. And not wasting skills that could have helped you win. And the consequences of if you lose the mesmer or waste skills.

But really I have seen a huge improvement in wins. Because I don't waste my skills I do more damage and have more survivability. On top of that I have dodged so many moa morphs that its not even funny. Really when I get moa morphed. It's usually out of the blue. As in I did not expect it. But this does not happen as often now. Really when you get moa morphed. Do you even see it coming?

View PostKorra, on 26 November 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

wow i mean woa.

Ya it's a little big :P

To all those that made it to the bottom of my post. Congratulation on reading the biggest post you will likely read anywhere on this forum

:P

#10 Sephorai

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

Kudos onto you though OP, I see what you attempted to do, (even if it was rather long winded) which is educate the populace on a rather misunderstood foe, so I applaud your effort. Only criticism is you wanna make sure to tell people how to do what you just suggested. In other words tell them how to tell a Mesmer apart from his clones not just to do it. Apart from that gj mate

#11 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

But seriously when I lose to a mesmer. It's not that he used moa morph, or time warp. But rather that I simply wasted too much skills on what I thought would be a direct hit. But by adapting my fighting style so as to punch when I know it will land. And to keep my eyes on the Mesmers as much as possible so as to avoid a sleek attack moa morph. Which has paid off. I have never been able to anticipate a mesmer and react correctly ever before. And because of that I dodge and interrupt a lot of the things the mesmer does. And because of all that. I am winning against Mesmers as much as I do every other class.

View PostSephorai, on 26 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Kudos onto you though OP, I see what you attempted to do, (even if it was rather long winded) which is educate the populace on a rather misunderstood foe, so I applaud your effort. Only criticism is you wanna make sure to tell people how to do what you just suggested. In other words tell them how to tell a Mesmer apart from his clones not just to do it. Apart from that gj mate

I thank you for your complement of my effort. And yes I should have included some tips of doing what I have suggested. Although would you really want that post to be any longer :P

I really just wanted to get the importance of mastering the technique out. As well as the fruits of it. I figured that people would simply post examples of ways to see through clones. You are a example of this

Edited by Adashio, 26 November 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#12 Sephorai

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

Btw hope you dont mind but your thread inspired me to bring over some info from my class forums that I hopes helps and builds upon this thread :).

#13 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

"Brevity is the soul of wit."

#14 osicat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:15 PM

What some ppl miss thu is the fact the different playstyles and traiting  a mesmer play demand different approachs. Yes a Mesmer relying on phantasma nd clones tying to melt in is dead if you keep interupt/stopp hes summon and go for him. This is the streangth of the heavy shatter mesmers who dont blody care if you have him targeted or a clone, he will send wave after wave of clones that blow in your face, who is the real mesmer? Porbobly the one in your face stunning you and burst your pants off, ok then attack the real mesmer.... hmm hes immune... and immune.... and immune....

:) Just saying wall of text explain a good approach to combat phantasm mesmers even if it could been said with less words. If you realy want to do a "How to vs mesmers" guide, make a guide with videos and how you handle the different gamestyles. This is as I told everyone to fight warriors "Guys, to win vs a warrior you have to dodge the 100b"  and ppl go "but he dont have a greatsword, he is stunning me with a hammer and hes ranger firend is killing me"

/Osicat

#15 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:15 PM

i am done posting for the day....so I believe this thread will grow. For good or bad I do not know. But I will find out when I wake up





GROW THREAD GROW!!!!!!!! :P

#16 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

View Postosicat, on 26 November 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

What some ppl miss thu is the fact the different playstyles and traiting  a mesmer play demand different approachs. Yes a Mesmer relying on phantasma nd clones tying to melt in is dead if you keep interupt/stopp hes summon and go for him. This is the streangth of the heavy shatter mesmers who dont blody care if you have him targeted or a clone, he will send wave after wave of clones that blow in your face, who is the real mesmer? Porbobly the one in your face stunning you and burst your pants off, ok then attack the real mesmer.... hmm hes immune... and immune.... and immune....

:) Just saying wall of text explain a good approach to combat phantasm mesmers even if it could been said with less words. If you realy want to do a "How to vs mesmers" guide, make a guide with videos and how you handle the different gamestyles. This is as I told everyone to fight warriors "Guys, to win vs a warrior you have to dodge the 100b"  and ppl go "but he dont have a greatsword, he is stunning me with a hammer and hes ranger firend is killing me"

/Osicat

Wait how is the mesmer immune. I get the distortion but......oh I don't got Ike for this I am going to sleep

#17 MesmersFromHouseElara

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

...............................................................................


I'd say fighting a mesmer is something similar to fighting a thief. pay attention.

#18 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostMesmersFromHouseElara, on 26 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

...............................................................................


I'd say fighting a mesmer is something similar to fighting a thief. pay attention.

Fighting a theif is similar to fighting a mesmer. But fighting a theif is trying to find your shadow in the dark. Kinda hard. Mesmers on the other hand. Are not hiding in the dark. That hide in plain sight. But even so I agree. PAY ATTENTION!!!!

#19 MesmersFromHouseElara

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:42 PM

That's why i said similar.

#20 Adashio

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

Ok before I actually put away the screen. I want to get around the actual point of this thread.

I stated that fighting a mesmer with the ability to keep the mesmer in your attention. As well as not waste skills. Will make the mesmer no harder to beat than any other class. Esentially making mesmers no longer OP. I get that moa morph is poweraful yes. But it is not the thing pushing the mesmer to be OP. time warp is ridiculousness in compact team fights. Assuming he gets it out. Which I like to stop. Portal is overpowered in a strategic sense. But in a fight sense it only allows the mesmer to escape. And it is not the reason Mesmers are considered to be OP. really the mesmer is extremely sharp in a lot more areas then most classes. But yet I think that the big reason they are considered OP is because they win a lot of fights, and why do they win so many fights? I belive it because most people are confused by there clones. Well at least with clone using Mesmers that is. Phantasm Mesmers are a little interesting. To put it simply. I do not see a lot of portal,moa morph,or time warp in fights. What I see the most is mental confusion followed by wasted skills.

But really I have only come to this conclusion because of the before and after picture of me not paying much attention to the real mesmer, and me paying attention to the real mesmer.......just to prove my point. When you get moa morphed( we all have) do you ever see it coming, and If so do you see It most of the time. Or only occasionally. After mastering this technique I am not hit easily with it anymore. Simply because I am paying attention

Edited by Adashio, 26 November 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#21 Sephorai

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

"Brevity is the soul of wit."
Polonius, Hamlet Act II, scene 2.

Am I right :)?

#22 Lalnuir

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:20 AM

View PostAdashio, on 26 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Wait how is the mesmer immune. I get the distortion but......oh I don't got Ike for this I am going to sleep

2 skill on the sword is a 2 second immunity on a 8 second cool down when traited.
f4 shatter gives you up to 4 seconds of immunity with the right traits.

Combined with dodging, couple of ways to gain vigor, a couple of dazes, few teleports and a stun. Mesmers can be pretty dam hard to kill.

#23 Featherman

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:01 AM

Differentiating clones from the real Mesmer is child's play. The real challenge is timing. Many variations of Mesmers succeed due to spikes. Knowing what to avoid and when to avoid it takes skill and experience, and even then it can be very tricky to tell depending on the build.

#24 Matron

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 27 November 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

Differentiating clones from the real Mesmer is child's play. The real challenge is timing. Many variations of Mesmers succeed due to spikes. Knowing what to avoid and when to avoid it takes skill and experience, and even then it can be very tricky to tell depending on the build.

++

I agree! When I am killed in a straight fight it is generally because the player has successfully dodged my spike damage. Also versus a GS mesmer keep close range at all times when he has GS equiped. Expect a knockback every 40 seconds or so but keep the gap small. Why do all of the rabbits run from me when I am loading them with pewpew from behind with GS.

#25 LavaSquid

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:35 AM

Don't panic. Identify the real one and chargeeeeeeee!

Well, I find shatter spec mesmers are harder to deal with. Beware when engaging a mesmer somewhere near cliff and stability/invulnerable/block is your best friend there.

#26 Fraktyl

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:11 PM

Target mark works well unless they stealth.

100% world completion star makes us stand out like a sore thumb too.  (Really wish I hadn't finished that one)

#27 osicat

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:28 PM

View PostAdashio, on 26 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Wait how is the mesmer immune. I get the distortion but......oh I don't got Ike for this I am going to sleep

Using the dmg avoidance alot in my latest guide. If you interested, even if you from the enemy.



#28 Winterfell

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:11 PM

Counted how many time you said waste in that lap text, it was 14. To be honest I wasted 5 min of mine time reading (

Cheers

#29 Panzanella

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:07 AM

In the time spent reading the OP you could've 10 other threads and actually learned something.  I think that was the whole point, just with words instead of mesmers.

#30 LFk

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:21 AM

The combination of very poorly constructed sentences, a loopy post progression, and extreme redundancy makes this a confusing, dazing, difficult to follow read.

The OP is a real life Mesmer, and the 5 minutes I spent reading the post was the text-based equivalent of attacking his clones. I read, and read, and read, and in the end there was nothing there.

The entire post could be summed up in a sentence: "Be familiar with the way mesmers use clones, and attempt to minimize your time spent attacking them." Nothing wrong with that point, it's just that there was no need for the text wall.





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