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Incoming Firegrab nerf


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#1 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

I can already see this happening:

Some random clueless dude posts a video of him doing 25k damage in 3 seconds against an afk opponent. And the forum already goes nuts about how this proves that glasscannon eles are just as good as glasscannon thieves and warriors and should be nerfed.

https://forum-en.gui...mg-in-2-seconds

How dumb can people be?

#2 RandolfRa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:11 PM

Nice combo but thief can do that while remaining invisible thanks to culling.

Edited by RandolfRa, 26 November 2012 - 12:13 PM.


#3 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 26 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Nice combo but thief can do that while remaining invisible thanks to culling.

And the first one without a clue. Glasscannon eles need a BUFF.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 26 November 2012 - 12:13 PM.


#4 Datmag Nie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

And the first one without a clue. Glasscannon eles need a BUFF.

No they don't....

I play glass cannon ele, damage is good, not so good as that of a warrior or thief but still...

Ele has a lot more survivability than the thief or warrior on full zerk.

#5 RandolfRa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

And the first one without a clue. Glasscannon eles need a BUFF.
Don't you see that my point is that this combo isn't very useful unless your opponent happens to be afk.

#6 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:19 PM

View PostDatmag Nie, on 26 November 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

No they don't....

I play glass cannon ele, damage is good, not so good as that of a warrior or thief but still...

Ele has a lot more survivability than the thief or warrior on full zerk.

LOL get real. GC ele more suvivability than thieves? Are you frakking kidding me?

View PostRandolfRa, on 26 November 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Don't you see that my point is that this combo isn't very useful unless your opponent happens to be afk.

Nice stealthedit...

#7 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:21 PM

So, now ArenaNet suddenly balance stuff about what people on the forums say without thinking about it first?

#8 Datmag Nie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

LOL get real. GC ele more suvivability than thieves? Are you frakking kidding me?



Nice stealthedit...
Try mist form and off-hand focus = 7s invunarable.
Arcane shield 3 blocks...

Utility enough to counter other GC classes and enough dps to kill "tanks"
But then again you're always complaining about Ele's and that they need a buff.

#9 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

So, now ArenaNet suddenly balance stuff about what people on the forums say without thinking about it first?

Do you have the impression that arenanet knows what they're doing when it comes to balance patches? E.g. backstab burst out of control, Anet nerfs sword/dagger builds...

View PostDatmag Nie, on 26 November 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Try mist form and off-hand focus = 7s invunarable.
Arcane shield 3 blocks...

Utility enough to counter other GC classes and enough dps to kill "tanks"
But then again you're always complaining about Ele's and that they need a buff.

Glasscannon is not viable in tournaments. Offhand focus is not viable.
LOL at arcane shield countering glasscannons.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 26 November 2012 - 12:27 PM.


#10 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Do you have the impression that arenanet knows what they're doing when it comes to balance patches? E.g. backstab burst out of control, Anet nerfs sword/dagger builds...

Yes, ArenaNet are quite good when it comes to balancing. Simply because they don't take what people say on the forums as true unless they test it themselves first.

#11 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Yes, ArenaNet are quite good when it comes to balancing. Simply because they don't take what people say on the forums as true unless they test it themselves first.

So you're saying sword/dagger thieves needed hard nerfing because they were like everywhere running amok?

#12 Datmag Nie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Do you have the impression that arenanet knows what they're doing when it comes to balance patches? E.g. backstab burst out of control, Anet nerfs sword/dagger builds...



Glasscannon is not viable in tournaments. Offhand focus is not viable.
LOL at arcane shield countering glasscannons.

U are right, it's not viable in tournaments.
Posted Image

See? it sucks and doesn't work just like u sayed.

#13 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:36 PM

a ) this doesn't show your build
b ) offhand focus isn't a glasscannon build

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 26 November 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#14 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:37 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

So you're saying sword/dagger thieves needed hard nerfing because they were like everywhere running amok?

I am not saying I am agreeing with everything, but seeing as the nerf took place it was most likely a rather good reason for it. This game is more balanced than most MMOs out there.

#15 Datmag Nie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

a ) this doesn't show your build
b ) offhand focus isn't a glasscannon build

A) ur right it doesnt show anything. but if ur interested it's 30/30/0/10/0
B) so only a dagger off-hand is GC? sure m8 whatever u say

#16 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostDatmag Nie, on 26 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

so only a dagger off-hand is GC? sure m8 whatever u say

Yes because it has our hardest hitting attacks. Also your screenshot isn't representive because the opposing team has 3 thieves meaning a) they most probably were a pug and you weren't and b ) they are glasscannons too. And not only will a good GC thief own you (so they most probably were noob thieves) but you'll die against bunker builds too because you lack damage.

If you're so sure GC ele is viable, make a video of you playing one in a premade tourney.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 26 November 2012 - 01:19 PM.


#17 blindude

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

View PostDatmag Nie, on 26 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

U are right, it's not viable in tournaments.
Posted Image

See? it sucks and doesn't work just like u sayed.
\wait you try to make a point by showing of a pic with 10 rank players agains pugs with stupid class compositions?
I mean i dont think its not viable at all myself but really? :o

#18 Featherman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

Everything is viable against bads.

#19 DarkMortyr

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

The truth is that you can play GC Ele in a premade tourney successfully, but it needs a lot to make it viable. Firstly you need the right setup for it and secondly you need a high amount of skill. Having a GC Ele means, that you will be almost without any survivability. Its a lot about timing and there is not any space for mistakes.

#20 Featherman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostDarkMortyr, on 26 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

The truth is that you can play GC Ele in a premade tourney successfully, but it needs a lot to make it viable. Firstly you need the right setup for it and secondly you need a high amount of skill. Having a GC Ele means, that you will be almost without any survivability. Its a lot about timing and there is not any space for mistakes.
Even then it only works 1v1. Unlike the bulky d/d of s/d builds you can't handle sustained damage from 2 players, unless the second player is also afk.

#21 DarkMortyr

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 26 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Even then it only works 1v1. Unlike the bulky d/d of s/d builds you can't handle sustained damage from 2 players, unless the second player is also afk.
I must say that this kind of build is really easy to counter in 1v1 situations. And its also hard to 1v1 against other GC classes. The strongest part on this build is, that you can do massive dmg in larger fights. You can do like 25k+ AoE dmg in few seconds "quite easily".
But on the other hand focus is your the biggest enemy. You need somebody in your team who will open the fight and mostly some CC as well. Its like - appear in the fight, rotate your combo, leave the fight and then after few seconds join again (if they are still alive). Its not that easy as it sounds, but it works.

#22 Serim

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:39 PM

I don't see a nerf inc for this, the opponent is required to be knocked down, in close proximity, and you need to be traited for blast increase on burning foe.  No utility and completely popped cooldowns, Anet will probably not even pay attention to this build because for the next minute and a half the build is completely useless, and will die if looked at funny.  No ability to take objectives or sustain objectives, and anything that gets the jump on you before it will win.

Fun video though, pew pew!

#23 Dirame

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Do you have the impression that arenanet knows what they're doing when it comes to balance patches? E.g. backstab burst out of control, Anet nerfs sword/dagger builds...



Glasscannon is not viable in tournaments. Offhand focus is not viable.
LOL at arcane shield countering glasscannons.

Take a look at the nerf and you'll see they didn't really nerf anything, they just rebalanced things. And it's a bit ironic that you say BS thieves are still out of control when the damage has been nerfed by 33% meaning it's only really effective when the target is at half health.

Also as someone said earlier, it seems like Anet thinks about things before they nerf them or buff them so really, I don't see any reason to be up in arms.

Edited by Dirame, 26 November 2012 - 08:10 PM.


#24 EatThisShoe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostDirame, on 26 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Take a look at the nerf and you'll see they didn't really nerf anything, they just rebalanced things. And it's a bit ironic that you say BS thieves are still out of control when the damage has been nerfed by 33% meaning it's only really effective when the target is at half health.
When did backstab thieves get 33% damage reduction?


On the topic at hand: You can land Fire Grab for the same damage without blowing any utilities. Lightning Flash + Cleansing Fire is just to give the target less time to react with a stunbreaker, and Arcane Wave is just extra burst as it always has been.

The damage isn't really surprising, and eles don't deal much less damage than thieves when they have similar levels of power/crit/damage traits, it's just that fewer eles run so glassy because we don't have stealth.

#25 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

View PostEatThisShoe, on 26 November 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

The damage isn't really surprising, and eles don't deal much less damage than thieves when they have similar levels of power/crit/damage traits, it's just that fewer eles run so glassy because we don't have stealth.

It's not only stealth. Thieves do that much damage all the time against people below 50% health and sometimes even above. As an ele you need to have your opponent knocked down and below 25% health, and braindead.

#26 EatThisShoe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 26 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

It's not only stealth. Thieves do that much damage all the time against people below 50% health and sometimes even above. As an ele you need to have your opponent knocked down and below 25% health, and braindead.
For 10k+ Fire grab that's true, but if you are running a glass cannon spec with 5+ damage traits you are hitting hard with everything, even if you skip Grounded entirely. I don't usually get crit for 10k+ by thieves, even though it's possible, a typical backstab is often a more reasonable 6k which is about in line with what a glass cannon ele can do with Burning Speed, Phoenix, or Fire Grab. Not to mention our damage is AoE.

I'm not taking a stand on thief balance here. I'm just saying the apparent gap in damage is heavily influenced by what builds people actually play and consider viable. If you don't play a 30 fire 30 air ele with damage traits, then you shouldn't expect to hit as hard as a thief who plays 30 Deadly Arts and 30 Critical Strikes and all damage traits.

#27 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:32 AM

View PostEatThisShoe, on 26 November 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

For 10k+ Fire grab that's true, but if you are running a glass cannon spec with 5+ damage traits you are hitting hard with everything, even if you skip Grounded entirely. I don't usually get crit for 10k+ by thieves, even though it's possible, a typical backstab is often a more reasonable 6k which is about in line with what a glass cannon ele can do with Burning Speed, Phoenix, or Fire Grab. Not to mention our damage is AoE.

I'm not taking a stand on thief balance here. I'm just saying the apparent gap in damage is heavily influenced by what builds people actually play and consider viable. If you don't play a 30 fire 30 air ele with damage traits, then you shouldn't expect to hit as hard as a thief who plays 30 Deadly Arts and 30 Critical Strikes and all damage traits.

While that might be, a thief can hit those numbers every few seconds, while an ele can only once every 45 seconds. Also thieves are so much more survivable while the only survival skill an GC ele has is mistform on 75 seconds cooldown which just isn't enough.

#28 EatThisShoe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 27 November 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

While that might be, a thief can hit those numbers every few seconds, while an ele can only once every 45 seconds. Also thieves are so much more survivable while the only survival skill an GC ele has is mistform on 75 seconds cooldown which just isn't enough.
But you're only counting Fire Grab, you can hit Phoenix for 80-90% of Fire Grab's damage with less than half the cooldown. In addition you are pinging lots of 1-2k hits from things like Sunspot and Static Discharge, and Lightning Strike. A S/D glass cannon can basically chain 6k Fire Grab + 5k Phoenix + 1-2k each from Sunspot, Discharge, Lightning Strike, Arcane Utilities can add another 2k each. Those are very realistic numbers for a glass cannon crit, they can go a lot higher with Grounded/Scholar/Vital Striking bonuses. In controlled tests I can land 14k Phoenix even. And that's not even touching hard to land skills like Dragon's Tooth or Churning Earth, nor does it include auto attacks. However Half are AoE burst, and the other half are instant cast. Our burst isn't limited to just Fire Grab, all that other stuff has lower cooldowns.

#29 Rrafaz

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:34 AM

View PostEatThisShoe, on 27 November 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

But you're only counting Fire Grab, you can hit Phoenix for 80-90% of Fire Grab's damage with less than half the cooldown. In addition you are pinging lots of 1-2k hits from things like Sunspot and Static Discharge, and Lightning Strike. A S/D glass cannon can basically chain 6k Fire Grab + 5k Phoenix + 1-2k each from Sunspot, Discharge, Lightning Strike, Arcane Utilities can add another 2k each. Those are very realistic numbers for a glass cannon crit, they can go a lot higher with Grounded/Scholar/Vital Striking bonuses. In controlled tests I can land 14k Phoenix even. And that's not even touching hard to land skills like Dragon's Tooth or Churning Earth, nor does it include auto attacks. However Half are AoE burst, and the other half are instant cast. Our burst isn't limited to just Fire Grab, all that other stuff has lower cooldowns.

An ele's combo (with DT) takes 4 or so seconds to fully execute, with a 1 second (or so it seems) window for the enemy to stunbreaker or otherwise move out of the DT red circle, meaning his whole combo is suddenly for naught. On the other hand, thief can execute his combo in under 1 second, invisible the entire time, and hey, if that doesn't work, hit a HS or two to finish them off. In short:

Ele's have to hit a still target, while thieves can do as much damage, if not more, while invisible, instantly, on moving targets. As if that's not enough, a Ele, when his combo is over, cannot simply just shadowstep away if the target isn't dead/enemy countered his combo. A thief can do all of that and more.

#30 Raif89

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

And on top of that, need a hell of a lot of might to get there.

**Edit - or at least i need to. I can't get 5k crits unless I've got some 12-15 stacks of might.

Edited by Raif89, 27 November 2012 - 09:43 AM.





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